Theorycrafting: solved the Epic Boss damage!

[L C]

The advantage multiplier from damage you do on the boss is different than in pvp, in your format this is:

Armor with no elemental advantage is unknown.
Single elemental boost gets a 0% boost for a multiplier of 1
Double elemental boost gets a 33% boost for a multiplier of 1.33

This is where he gets the 1.33 from, not from an increase in damage boost as you calculated.

Given the fact that your elemental advantage on the boss isn't the same as in pvp, it's definitely not sure that the pvp damage boost goes for the boss's damage on you.

Sorry to disagree with you, sir. But my math is accurate. And the damage done by unboosted armor is not unknown.
I merely modified his equation by using a known quantity for the damage done by unboosted armor.
Call it X if you wish.
Then, the boosted damage from armor with the same attack and a single elemental advantage will net 1.5X or 50% more damage then X (aka armor with no elemental advantage).
Following this is the boosted damage from armor with a double elemental advantage, and it nets 2X or 100% more damage then X (and ultimately 33% more damage than armor with a single elemental advantage).

The original math was figured for a single elemental advantage, so lets call that Y.
Thus Y=1.5X

If we set double elemental advantage armor as Z, then...
Z=2X=1.33Y (this is really 1 1/3)
So using some old school algebra:
2X=1.33Y
(2/1.33)X=Y
Y=(2/1.33)X
y=1.5X

Feel free to check my math, but rest assured that it is correct.

As for the damage being different in the arena or other PvP method, that is merely because the individual has different defense (and attack) values than the boss, but it is all figured the same. Numerous tests have been run by many people and previously posted in this forum (you'd have to read back always though), as well as I have done them myself, to verify this. Sure you can break open the app and read the code to see the math as well, but where's the fun in that?

Also, sir: spot on explaining the "pseudolevel".
Nicely done, mate.

Congrats on the energy drop in level 21, as well. Wish I had gotten some extra ones, but so far mine match up to those previously posted.

Cheers

[Sir.]

Sorry to disagree with you, sir. But my math is accurate. And the damage done by unboosted armor is not unknown.
I merely modified his equation by using a known quantity for the damage done by unboosted armor.
Call it X if you wish.
Then, the boosted damage from armor with the same attack and a single elemental advantage will net 1.5X or 50% more damage then X (aka armor with no elemental advantage).
Following this is the boosted damage from armor with a double elemental advantage, and it nets 2X or 100% more damage then X (and ultimately 33% more damage than armor with a single elemental advantage).

The original math was figured for a single elemental advantage, so lets call that Y.
Thus Y=1.5X

If we set double elemental advantage armor as Z, then...
Z=2X=1.33Y (this is really 1 1/3)
So using some old school algebra:
2X=1.33Y
(2/1.33)X=Y
Y=(2/1.33)X
y=1.5X

Feel free to check my math, but rest assured that it is correct.

As for the damage being different in the arena or other PvP method, that is merely because the individual has different defense (and attack) values than the boss, but it is all figured the same. Numerous tests have been run by many people and previously posted in this forum (you'd have to read back always though), as well as I have done them myself, to verify this. Sure you can break open the app and read the code to see the math as well, but where's the fun in that?

Also, sir: spot on explaining the "pseudolevel".
Nicely done, mate.

Congrats on the energy drop in level 21, as well. Wish I had gotten some extra ones, but so far mine match up to those previously posted.

Cheers

Your maths are definitely correct, I was merely questioning the relevance of it. Basically you're confirming the elemental damage boosting in the rest of the game (i.e. pvp) by comparing the boosts to eachother.

It does however seem to work the same as in pvp, but that means there's a minor flaw in the initial post. I need a bit more info to work on the correction, I'll get back on that.

[600RR]

Damn you guys are smart. I'd be here all my life working that stuff out! Keep it coming !

[Adagio]

Wow you guys are really amazing! And I thought I was gonna go to Harvard!!

[ang1977]

amazing thread and i admire your curiosity and effort to have the numbers calculated and present them here. its kinda extreme to have reached such extend and you deserve my claps. i'm bad with numbers and they make me giddy lol....with the boss damage board showing that 5mil(after 1st day) and 2mil(out of no where) damage points, make my giddiness worst......just WOW....you know what i'm thinking.......maybe......should be.......must be!

keep up the nice work! cheers!

[Sir.]

Can someone confirm one or several of these numbers? I can't myself as I'm not level 100+.

Damage done on boss: (the examples given in boldare for lvl 43 Jian with 5 knights out, reg att/spec att)

Main knight with maxed nemesis = (562,848/boss def)*dmg boost ------ 929/1394 (edit: due to the single advantage element of Nemesis this should be multiplied by 1.5, actually making it 1394/2091)
Main knight with maxed AA+ = (348,336/boss def)*dmg boost ------ 575/863
Main knight with maxed swamp+ = (278,472/boss def)*dmg boost ------ 460/690

Follower with maxed nemesis = (525,456/boss def)*dmg boost ------ 867/1301
Follower with maxed AA+ = (323,408/boss def)*dmg boost ------ 534/801
Follower with maxed swamp+ = (259,776/boss def)*dmg boost ------ 429/644

The damage boost is the boost from taking multiple knights, 2 for five knights, 1.75 for four, 1.5 for three, 1.25 for two or 1 for one knight.

[BethMo]

Can someone confirm one or several of these numbers? I can't myself as I'm not level 100+.

I don't quite understand the format you're using. My numbers for level 43 Jian with five level 100+ knights:
Main knight & friends with maxed nemesis: damage to me 134, damage to boss 1392
Follower with maxed swamp+: damage to me 111, damage to boss 425
Follower with level 68 Hydromancer (stats 1,308/1090, water): damage to me 138, damage to boss 530

Total damage done in the fight was 28,324; my Hydromancer + Nemesis then finished it off.

(Maxed-out Atlantean does the same damage as level 68 Hydromancer, but the Hydromancer has higher armor so it can sometimes survive for one more hit.)

[Sir.]

I don't quite understand the format you're using. My numbers for level 43 Jian with five level 100+ knights:
Main knight & friends with maxed nemesis: damage to me 134, damage to boss 1392
Follower with maxed swamp+: damage to me 111, damage to boss 425
Follower with level 68 Hydromancer (stats 1,308/1090, water): damage to me 138, damage to boss 530

Total damage done in the fight was 28,324; my Hydromancer + Nemesis then finished it off.

(Maxed-out Atlantean does the same damage as level 68 Hydromancer, but the Hydromancer has higher armor so it can sometimes survive for one more hit.)

Pretty much using your format, slightly adjusted to having no elemental advantage as a base, rather than 1 element advantage. Was just focussing on the attack you deal for now to specify how the Nemesis works.

Apparently the elemental advantage of Nemesis is added to your attack first, before it's multiplied by 3. So effectively Nemesis does 4.5x damage, compared to armor with no elemental advantage. This confirms the ratio's you posted inititially and takes away my confusion with those.

As for the armors with no elemental advantages, in your format this would be 0.67 (2/3rd). Personally, however, I would take these armors as the base ones, rather than the armor with one elemental advantage as you currently have. It does work the same as with pvp, after all.

[...]
Base Damage to boss by a level 100 knight = 246 * (my attack / boss armor) * advantage factor.
Advantage factor:
0.67 for no advantage element (i.e. Regalia vs. Jian)
1 for single advantage element (i.e. Swamp Shaman vs. Jian)
1.33 for double advantage elements (i.e. AA armor vs Jian)
3 for Nemesis

I added the no advantage element here.

If you make that the base here, it would be the same as with pvp, namely:

1 for no advantage element (i.e. Regalia vs. Jian)
1.5 for single advantage element (i.e. Swamp Shaman vs. Jian)
2 for double advantage elements (i.e. AA armor vs Jian)
4.5 for Nemesis (single advantage element and triple damage)

Effectively you have just multiplied it all by 1.5, so somewhere in the equation you have to divide it by 1.5 too, so you have to adjust the original 246 to 246/1.5=164. As you can see by the numbers I calculated, this was very accurate to the hits you actually made, the slight 2-4 difference probably being due to rounding of numbers. With two examples however, I'll do the simple algebra quickly to find out what the exact number should be. Am on that now.



Edit: I'm getting different numbers for both formats now. When I fill in your original one it doesn't work either:

Base Damage to boss by a level 100 knight = 246 * (my attack / boss armor) * advantage factor.

With the swamp+ example:

246 * (1056/1212) * 1 = 214.33
Your damage was 425.

The equation 425 = X * (1056/1212) * 1 solves for X = 487.78


With the format I suggested (for a better understanding of where the numbers are coming from) this would be:

425 = X * (1056/1212) * 1.5
X = 325.19

With Nemesis on main knight as an example X would solve for 327.72 or 491.58 with your format. Both are close, but not exactly the same. I suspect the equation to be slightly more complicated, but this being a fairly accurate approximation.

Note: This is with examples for the level 43 boss only. It is possible that calculating the damage you do involves the boss level as well, rather than just it's defence. If your findings were based on another level of the boss, this would explain the difference in outcomes.

[Sir.]

To summarize the above post more clearly; if my calculations are right, your format should be this:

[...]
Base Damage to boss by a level 100 knight = 490.5 * (my attack / boss armor) * advantage factor.
Advantage factor:
0.67 for no advantage element (i.e. Regalia vs. Jian)
1 for single advantage element (i.e. Swamp Shaman vs. Jian)
1.33 for double advantage elements (i.e. AA armor vs Jian)
3 for Nemesis

However, for a better understand of where these numbers are coming from, I'd put it like this:

Base Damage to boss by a level 100 knight = 326.5 * (my attack / boss armor) * advantage factor.
Advantage factor:
1 for no advantage element (i.e. Regalia vs. Jian)
1.5 for single advantage element (i.e. Swamp Shaman vs. Jian)
2 for double advantage elements (i.e. AA armor vs Jian)
4.5 for Nemesis


Again, this is based on the numbers given from swamp+ on follower and nemesis on main knight, on a level 43 Jian. It's very well possible that this doesn't go for other levels.

[BethMo]

Edit: I'm getting different numbers for both formats now. When I fill in your original one it doesn't work either:

Base Damage to boss by a level 100 knight = 246 * (my attack / boss armor) * advantage factor.

With the swamp+ example:

246 * (1056/1212) * 1 = 214.33
Your damage was 425.

You forgot the x2 multiplier for having five knights. (Also, my maxed-out swamp guy is 1053 attack, not 1056).

246 * (1053/1212) * 1 (for single element advantage) * 2 (for five knights) = 427, actual damage was 425, close enough for rounding errors.

[Sir.]

You forgot the x2 multiplier for having five knights. (Also, my maxed-out swamp guy is 1053 attack, not 1056).

246 * (1053/1212) * 1 (for single element advantage) * 2 (for five knights) = 427, actual damage was 425, close enough for rounding errors.

*facedesk*

I actually read it all like 5 times over to find out where my mistake was... Dividing my findings by 2 indeed confirms the formula.


Did you get what I was trying to say by using the no advantage element as a base though? With this format:

1 for no advantage element (i.e. Regalia vs. Jian)
1.5 for single advantage element (i.e. Swamp Shaman vs. Jian)
2 for double advantage elements (i.e. AA armor vs Jian)
4.5 for Nemesis (single advantage element and triple damage)

Works the same, except the 246 would become ~163 (163.86 for Nemesis main knight, 163.06 for swamp+ follower).

P.s. The 0.67 multiplier for no advantage element in your format works eitherway.

[Raistmar]

*Note to self, avoid this thread so my brain don't go BOOM!*

[aaa13]

So the "coolnes" of armour is not the attack+defence, but attack*defence. Someone should edit the spreadsheet.

[aaa13]

Just have checked, without elemental advantage coefficient is 0.66.

[L C]

Just have checked, without elemental advantage coefficient is 0.66.

It's actually 2/3, which is why it was rounded to .67 (because .6 repeating is way too much of a pain)...
This is also why it was suggested to shift the equation to represent no advantage as a coefficient of 1 and thus
Single elemental advantage as 1.5 (for +50%)
Dual elemental advantage as 2 (for +100%)

It seems anyone who wants to utilize this, will have to just decide how they want to handle it. Just pick which of the equations you want to utilize (sir. Did a good job of shifting it to the coefficients listed above)

Good math, sir. (been there with the face/desk many times in the past myself)


Currently trying to trip level 43 without a nemesis armor (one more attempt at using 7 energy then 6 where I take two maxed nemisis friends along - last attempt I had 4 misses and boss had 3 extra critical = doomed)