Skill Points - Straight from the Programmers - Complicated Explanation - EASY Answer

[Mcdoc]

http://forums.gree.net/showthread.ph...l=1#post370844

I was going to bump the Chef Pepe thread from the SoCal Meetup where a few of us had the face-to-face opportunity to ask some very revealing questions to a FUNZIO Rep sent down from San Francisco.

Unfortunately - one of the long gone moderators locked this thread the last time it was revived as a knee jerk reaction to a necro thread without realizing the thread contained valuable / helpful information.



So here is the word straight from one of the original FUNZIO reps who had daily interaction with the programmers on how skill points work. I will update the numbers to an even 10B since back then, 100k was considered a High Alliance Attack.

Remember - the Secret Formula number has to actually be big enough to swing the occasional surprise loss when you've won 9 in a row and suddenly lose one.


Paraphrased From Original and EDITED for new numbers and for better explanation:


The word we got on the Skill points is that they are MULTIPLIED BY a SECRET FORMULA NUMBER that then gets Multiplied ONCE AGAIN by an Independent "random dice" multiplier (That CAN be a Positive or Negative Number) that all of this is then added or subtracted to all of the Final Boosted Alliance stats of the Attacker and the Defender to get the final Battle result

For argument's sake: Say your boosted Attack is 10 Billion going up against someone with a boosted defense of 8 Billion. SO you should win 12 out of 12 - "should"

In THIS Example lets say the attacker has say 200 to Attack Skill Points and lets say the defender has a Defense Skill Point accumulation of 100.


For our example - lets assume the "secret formula" multiplier is 7 million
*remember - it has to be Big enough to actually MAKE a difference

How to Calculate ATTACK SCORE:
STEP 1 {10 Billion Alliance Attack}

STEP 2 {200 Attack Skill Points} x {7m secret formula} = 1.4 Billion
(it has to make a difference to be worth it)

Step 3 {1.4 Billion ATTACK Skill Point Factor} x {Random Dice number + or - between 1 and 5}
The attacker gets an Independent random Dice Roll that is Separate from the Defenders random Dice Roll
For our example here - lets say the Dice Rolls a +3 for the Attacker
{1.4 Billion Skill Point Factor} x {+3 Random Dice Multiplier} = 4.2 Billion Added Skill Point Factor

Step 4 Attacker now brings {10B} + { 4.2B} = 14.2B


Now for DEFENSE SCORE
STEP 1 {8 Billion Alliance Defense}

STEP 2 {100 Defense Skill Points} x {7m secret formula} = 700 Million

Step 3 {700 Million DEFENSE Skill Point Factor} x {Random Dice number + or - between 1 and 5}
The Defender gets an Independent Random Dice Roll
For our example here - lets say the Dice Rolls a +5 for the Defender
{700 Million Skill Point Factor} x {+5 Random Dice Multiplier} = 3.5 Billion Added DEF Skill Point Factor

Step 4 Defender now brings {8B} + { 3.5B} = 11.5B


So for the first battle - the end result is ATTACKER WINS ! ! !




On EACH battle - the RANDOM Dice yields a Separate Variable for the Attacker and Defender

These next examples will only show the Change of the Random Dice as that is all that will change in 12 straight attacks.


Battle 1: Attacker Dice +3 Defender Dice +5
A: {10B} + {1.4B x 3} = 10B + 4.2B = 14,200,000,000 <--- Winner
D: {8B) + {700M x +5} = 8B + 3.5B = 11,500,000,000

Battle 2: Attacker Dice +2 Defender Dice -3
A: {10B} + {1.4B x 2} = 10B + 800M = 10,800,000,000 <--- Winner
D: {8B) + {700M x -3} = 8B - 2.1B = 6,800,000,000

Battle 3: Attacker Dice -4 Defender Dice +3
A: {10B} + {1.4B x -4} = 10B - 1.6B = 8,400,000,000
D: {8B) + {700M x +5} = 8B + 3.5B = 11,500,000,000 <--- Winner - wtf ? ? ?

Your Alliance attack will remain constant and the Secret formula number will remain constant - so someone who is even more of a Math Geek than me could track 10 attacks on a player - repeat on 10 players - track the numbers and somewhat account for the random dice - and try to figure out the approximate range of the Random Dice deviation on both totals


So I know that looks all Geeked out - but that's the Way CCMark explained it to us!



Bottom Line is - the random dice COULD be a negative number - SO - technically a higher skill point value can make a higher negative impact on the overall battle score


Conclusion:
In my humble opinion - Attack and Defense Points (if they are turned back on) CAN make a small difference in the battle if you are within 2 -3 Billion points. But if you're hitting folks 4 to 5 to 10 Billion points away - it will be a rare instance where the Skill Points and the Dice will flip a natural win

SO

My advice - EASY Answer

If it makes you feel good - put 100 Each on Attack and Defense
Load 15-25 Skill Points on stamina if you're not big on Raiding / attacking
Load 50 on Stamina if you are one to constantly farm BP and attack a lot

Load the rest on Energy so you can go farther in FLTQ / ILTQ and don't attack people so close to your range.

I used to run with 300 on Def and 180 on attack - but I think I'm gonna take my chances and run 1 each on Attack and Defense this time because I don't care if I lose an attack - but I DO care if I log on after being asleep or away for a few hours and can start off with 7000 energy

[Vegaman]

I said exactly the same as your last three lines 12 hours ago lol.

[Mcdoc]

Hope all of that helps once you wrap your brain around all the variables in the formula

OR

I hope the easy answer saves you a near aneurysm (blood vessel burst inside your brain)

- Cheers

[Mcdoc]

I said exactly the same as your last three lines 12 hours ago lol.

I honestly didn't read all of the other threads - spent the last 3 hours working on the Opening Post -

But I figured someone else ( or everyone else ) would come to the same conclusion

Great Minds think alike!


Also probably already said - Attack and Defense Skill points have been reportedly turned "Off" for over 2 years because the programming Code on those numbers I was explaining were SO complicated that Gree's programmers couldn't figure out how to stop hackers who gave themselves 9000 or 1 Million attack skill points

So I TRULY doubt Gree programmers suddenly drank some Genius Juice and figured out how to implement a way to protect the Original formulas from being hacked

just saying . . . . . . . . .

[Johnson_Jr]

Thx McDoc for this post.
Only one in each att/def seems good.

About how you gonna spread your skill points between stamina and energy..... beware.
Now a raid gonna cost you 2 stamina......

Gree doesnt tell you? surprise!

Edit : In fact it seems that its 2 stamina only for buildings updated over lvl10

[elangomatt]

Thanks McDoc for that post, I hadn't seen that original post before that I can remember. Do you have any insight on what that "secret formula" actually is in reality? Does it change depending on a players stats or is it a constant number for everyone? Like you said in your post, that secret formula multiplier wouldn't do much good if it wasn't dynamic and high enough to make any difference.

[mickymacirl]

Skill points aren't used in attacking calculations since the first WD. This hasn't changed and is the same as before the skill point reset.

They are used in raiding but only add a small amount (even less noticable now since people have a trillion in stats)

And there is no such thing as a random number, every character has a number generated pool of numbers that equal a string of text. In 3 and half years playing this game mine hasnt changed at all, i.e. it's not random.

[HGF69]

So if it's a 1 in 10 chance then I can live with that and I'll pile the lot elsewhere lol

[Vegaman]

I honestly didn't read all of the other threads - spent the last 3 hours working on the Opening Post -

But I figured someone else ( or everyone else ) would come to the same conclusion

Great Minds think alike!


Also probably already said - Attack and Defense Skill points have been reportedly turned "Off" for over 2 years because the programming Code on those numbers I was explaining were SO complicated that Gree's programmers couldn't figure out how to stop hackers who gave themselves 9000 or 1 Million attack skill points

So I TRULY doubt Gree programmers suddenly drank some Genius Juice and figured out how to implement a way to protect the Original formulas from being hacked

just saying . . . . . . . . .

Thanks Mc Doc, i agree totally, get the energy and decent amount of Stamina and BooHoo to atk def skill points

[Vegaman]

Skill points aren't used in attacking calculations since the first WD. This hasn't changed and is the same as before the skill point reset.

They are used in raiding but only add a small amount (even less noticable now since people have a trillion in stats)

And there is no such thing as a random number, every character has a number generated pool of numbers that equal a string of text. In 3 and half years playing this game mine hasnt changed at all, i.e. it's not random.

Yep MickyMac you are spot on as usual... I think the developers are struggling with all aspects of this game. Especially the Bit formula preventing numbers increase etc of cash buildings and so on.

[Clay43]

Thx McDoc for this post.
Only one in each att/def seems good.

About how you gonna spread your skill points between stamina and energy..... beware.
Now a raid gonna cost you 2 stamina......

Gree doesnt tell you? surprise!

Edit : In fact it seems that its 2 stamina only for buildings updated over lvl10

Glad someone noticed this because I thought I was going crazy. There are definitely raids using more than one stamina point.

[Omasbest]

In Crime City all of the new buildings cost 2 stamina to raid, initially. After a certain number of upgrades they cost 3 stamina. I HATE this change. The only change I hate more is in KA, where Gree increased the cost of a stamina refill to 20 gems (same as gold here). And KA has "Hero Strength" that uses 2 skill points per 1 increase (hero strength has a huge impact on your ability to take out bad guys. They don't have a certain number of hits like MW and cc, kas targets are like raid bosses. They take a certain amount of damage to kill and hero strength increases the damage you can do.), as well as, stamina, which also takes 2 for 1. Also, KA doesn't level up as quickly and to earn extra skill points you must complete level 4 of a map location. Each level requires you eliminate more monsters to complete it, with the 4th level having 240.

Based on these other two games, it seems to me like gree's strategy is to manipulate the game flow to cost players more to do the things they were doing because of the design. Since players in KA put everything into hero strength, because it was needed to perform well on quests, they punished us for having no stamina by doubling the cost for refills.

In CC, it used to be that only a few gold users had any high output buildings. It used to take all of your stamina to scrounge up less than a million. Now that they've introduced higher output buildings to the masses, they have doubled and tripled the stamina needed to hit them. Which, I guess, is almost the same as doubling or tripling the cost if you want to keep up. Thirty stamina used to mean 30 hits on buildings. Now it means 10, 15 or 30. And anything that takes only 1 stamina is likely to pay out so little that is almost meaningless.

At the rate Gree is going, they will have added so many scummy things to these games that only people who can hack them or that have a trust fund will be playing. Maybe the equipment debacle was actually evil genius. It served as a significant diversion while these changes were implemented.

[kguittar]

Lets say that Mcdoc's formula still holds true. (curb Mickymac's info for now)

you are no better off having more attack points than you are to have zero.
If its a 50/50 shot that your 200 attack points could in fact create a negative 1.6b you are going to wish you didn't have them at all.

I would rather not bank on my attack being boosted by some mystery formula in order to win, I would prefer to know my attack could beat my opponent's defense.

this overly complicated formula must have come from the same person that decided to use the Command Center for a 24 hour PVP event.

[Kefa]

Attack someone 10 times in a row, and watch your attack and their defense number. Eight weeks ago the numbers wouldn't change - now in the last 2 WD events (and PvP) they do change again from one hit to the next, like the old days. And suddenly we get a skill point reset.

Hmmm...

[Mcdoc]

Skill points aren't used in attacking calculations since the first WD. This hasn't changed and is the same as before the skill point reset.

They are used in raiding but only add a small amount (even less noticable now since people have a trillion in stats)

And there is no such thing as a random number, every character has a number generated pool of numbers that equal a string of text. In 3 and half years playing this game mine hasnt changed at all, i.e. it's not random.

Hey Brother!

Like I said, I was just explaining the "Formula" as it was explained to us in a face to face.

But I do have to disagree with you on the Random Dice Roll and I have Proof:

The FINAL total Attack and Total Defense shows on the battle screen and it DOES change every singe hit. It's only a slight change, but it is the Random Dice Roll Modifier in play. There was a time when ONLY your Alliance attack displayed on your Profile Screen - Which meant the EXACT same Alliance Attack (only) was shown as a consistent DISPLAY Only Number in every battle.

The Fixed Display Profile Alliance Attack Number (AAN) accounts for all of your accumulated attack Bonuses, but does not Display the true final numbers that include the Fixed Skill Point Formula Modifier or the Random Dice Roll Modifier. When the game is set to Fixed AAN - that is when you will win 8 in a row - but then get a "random" Loss even when the Battle Screen shows a Fixed AAN that is higher than the defenders Fixed Alliance Defense Number.

BUT - Currently - the Game is set to Display the FINAL Battle Calculations - so you get to see the numbers fluctuate with every hit and when you randomly lose one - the defenders numbers will actually be higher for that ONE battle


Here are some actual FINAL BATTLE NUMBER results I just now documented on an account with a FIXED Alliance Attack Number from the Profile page showing as 10,937,169,96 with an Attack Skill Point set at only 1 - so this is the most RAW Data to show the "Random Dice Roll Modifier"

FIXED Alliance Attack Final Battle Result Difference % Modifier 10,937,169,961 10,937,175,646 5,685 0.0000520% 10,937,169,961 10,937,717,568 547,607 0.0050068% 10,937,169,961 11,046,547,364 109,377,403 1.0000521% 10,937,169,961 11,046,547,347 109,377,386 1.0000520% 10,937,169,961 10,937,175,598 5,637 0.0000515% 10,937,169,961 11,046,547,381 109,377,420 1.0000523% 10,937,169,961 10,827,803,942 -109,366,019 -0.9999481% 10,937,169,961 10,937,175,536 5,575 0.0000510% 10,937,169,961 10,937,175,594 5,633 0.0000515% 10,937,169,961 10,827,803,833 -109,366,128 -0.9999491% 10,937,169,961 11,046,547,288 109,377,327 1.0000515% 10,937,169,961 11,046,547,314 109,377,353 1.0000517%

*Modifier % set to display 7 decimals

As you can see - on 2 of the 12 attacks - the Final Battle Attack was actually LESS than the Fixed Alliance Attack

The Smallest deviation was an increase of : 5,575
The Largest deviation was an increase of : 109,377,420



So in the interest of Science - I will add 10 Skill points and repeat this test:

FIXED Alliance Attack		Final Battle Result		Difference		% Modifier
10,937,169,961		11,046,547,652		109,377,691		1.0000548%
10,937,169,961		11,046,547,642		109,377,681		1.0000547%
10,937,169,961		10,827,804,199		-109,365,762		-0.9999457%
10,937,169,961		11,046,547,649		109,377,688		1.0000548%
10,937,169,961		11,046,547,603		109,377,642		1.0000543%
10,937,169,961		11,155,919,448		218,749,487		2.0000557%
10,937,169,961		11,046,547,600		109,377,639		1.0000543%
10,937,169,961		11,046,547,683		109,377,722		1.0000551%
10,937,169,961		10,827,804,153		-109,365,808		-0.9999461%
10,937,169,961		11,046,547,676		109,377,715		1.0000550%
10,937,169,961		10,827,804,136		-109,365,825		-0.9999463%
10,937,169,961		10,718,432,405		-218,737,556		-1.9999466%

So - I double checked - the Fixed Alliance Attack Did not change by adding Attack Skill Points which proves there is math that happens after you press attack to make each result contain a Random Dice Modifier somewhere in the formula.

THIS test group ended up with 4 out of 12 where the Random Dice Modifier actually took the Total Battle Score below the Fixed Alliance Attack Score - which is what CCMark told us back at the SoCal meetup that the Random Dice Modifier for each strike could end up a positive number or a negative number

With 10 Attack Skill Points
The Smallest deviation was : 109,377,639
The Largest deviation was : 218,749,487

BUT the fluctuation was negative a few times also in those same ranges

Conclusion:
With a 10 Billion attack - the 10 Skill Points ONLY maximized another 218 Million
How many battles with THAT sway ?

If I had a total of 100 Attack Skill Points - on a 10 Billion account - WOULD it make that deviation jump to 2 Billion ?

Not sure I want to actually burn another 90 skill points to find out - BUT - I do find it very interesting that from 1 Skill point to 10 skill points - quite a few of the attack deviation still hovered around 109 million