Gree Admins, moderators, and support staff...come on into this thread...Its fun!

[Robespierre]

Welcome Gree staff. First, this is not a hostile thread. This thread was created so we could have a "get to know you better" experience.

First, take a look at the lovely beach where we'll be meeting today:

Isn't it great?

Behind you is our beach bartender Tommy. His mai-tai is excellent. Just let him know what you want to drink, and put it on my tab.


So let me introduce myself. I'm Robespierre, but my friends call me Robes. Since we're all friends here, call me Robes, please.

I've been lurking around the forums for a while, but I just got a little more involved as things seem to have heated up here a little bit.

I wanted to get together with you to explain a few things, and maybe get a little insight from you as well.

First we really appreciate the work you are doing. Without you, all of the issues we have would be going unresolved. I have been thinking about it a lot, and I imagine that you have a very difficult job as being the interaction between the company and the customers--you're really "where the rubber hits the road" so to say.

Oh! our drinks are here...you all ordered the same one? Well anyways...


I wanted to let you know that we recognize that you have an incredibly demanding position, working in between so many different groups of people: the regular customers, extremely agitated customers, your own staff, the development staff, and of course, management.

And between the customers and the management, their goals are at nearly opposite spectrums. Within this current game design, the customers are trying to get as much experience gaming for the least amount of cost, where management is looking to get the most revenue for the least amount of expense. That's business school 101, and nobody here is expecting any less.

And you are caught in between these two competing groups: trying to implement management's plans while having to deal with direct customer feedback, and nearly all of it around here has been of a negative nature recently.

So let's address the negativity...just get it out in the open. From what I can gather, it's frustration. And frustration can be a very difficult situation to deal with, both as a customer and having to work with those frustrations as you address the issue at hand.

So where do these frustrations come from? I think it has to do with consumer expectations. To be frank, the customers around here expect that they will get what they pay for, be it in time, community building, or in actual cash transactions. Now once cash transactions enter the relationship, consumers expect a higher degree of satisfaction for the goods and services that they are purchasing.

The expectation that the product or service will be as advertised and will perform as it's supposed to do is paramount. This is the bug issue. You know what they are much more than I do, so I won't try to act like I know it all. But it is a major issue...people are paying for an experience, and when basic functions are not up to par, you can expect some negative feedback.

Oh Cool. Tommy sent over another round. Try these out, they're great.


The second major area of frustration is transparency, and can be linked to accusations of trying to use unfair tactics to increase revenue. My primary examples are the crate events, and the frozen leaderboard in the latest WD event.

In the crate event, where using gold options to "open" a crate initially gives out tokens, later stages of the event have lower occurrences of receiving the token; instead you get a "booby" prize. First, none of the booby prizes are disclosed, so we have no way to know of knowing what we may get. Second, there are no disclosed odds of what you will get on the increasingly "difficult" chances of getting a crate. Failing to disclose odds on a gambling event that you control may have more consequences than just customer dissatisfaction. Games of chance and luck are heavily regulated for the above reasons.

The second transparency concern is that in the last WD event, the leaderboard was frozen for the final hour or two of the event. Some factions saw that they were near the next prize tier, and made a gold-funded push to increase their points to make it into the next prize tier. The frozen leaderboard enticed those factions to make the push, only to be using frozen data and splash screens (despite repeatedly hitting the "refresh" button) stating their current position when the live data would have been more accurate. Some factions made it past the actual prize tier, yet there were factions that were relying on the frozen leaderboard and splash screens stating that they were comfortably in the next tier...those hundreds of players are justifiably upset because what was shown to them was not accurate, and violated their consumer expectations.

WD points are also an issue. How these numbers are generated perplexes quite a few of us, and the fact that players that have been here the longest are given the fewest points demonstrates either an uncaring attitude or a bald-faced attempt to generate more revenue by giving lousy points. I hope this isn't the case.

Now I know that these kinds of things may not be at your level to address, but perhaps our conversation today could be one of many where we get together for a chat to go over the current "customer barometer." Some of us are still here, and we are noticing the growing occurrences of going to raid a base, only to find it completely naked...the player had made the ultimate scorched-earth decision to leave nothing behind for anyone.

We enjoy this game, and it can be better. We are aware of the pressures on your team to make revenue goals, as any business should. We can help with revenues when we have a solid product that is fair to the players. So, I hope that would be a primary goal that could address a lot of issues here.

And lastly, hang out around here and get to know us better! Nobody is expecting any special favors from you, but if we could get to know your team a bit better, I'm sure things would warm up nicely. I get to know the business providers in my community, and those relationships have benefited both of us. So let's work on building those community ties so stepping in the forum isn't like jumping into an icy lake.

I'm glad we had the chance to get together, and feel free to introduce yourselves and let us know what kinds of things you do around the office--plenty of us probably do the same thing, so we have more in common than you would expect.

Take care, and I look forward to your feedback.

Warmest regards.

[pb23]

* hic * * hiccup *

[commander Don]

Nice thread. Educated complaining goes a long way.

[SOF]

Smooth... I commend you for this thread. Well put indeed. Tomorrow if my support issues are still ignored for a week my thread will not be so kind however.

[Dutchie]

I hope I am not too late for my free drink and I hope it isn't a trick that lands me with the drinks bill afterwards whereby I am paying for everyone in this room! I know some people in here feel like that....

Now let me tell you a little story of a diamond geezer that I met through the game. This guy is one of the nicest persons that one could meet. He has everything... beautiful wife, lovely children, a high powered individual who is at the top of the tree in his business, yet very down to earth and certainly not short of a bob or two.

Through our interaction in the game, I got him to join our faction and the things he did for us were nothing short of spectacular. In one WD event, he even dragged us up that leaderboard all on his own. Naturally, he wanted to play with the big boys and we made sure he did. When he said he was ready to, we ensured he went to the best and he went to one of the SUP teams. We kept in contact and even though he is a very busy man, he came by on occasions and said hello to his old team mates.

Now one day recently he opened his iTunes statement and he was a little surprised to see the amount he had spent on this game, a simple game that requires no thought and has no AI. You see, it is quite easy to get carried away and like most, he didn't check his statements very often, but when he did, he added it all up and was shocked at how much money he had actually given to GREE. He made his decision there and then, not to spend another dime on this game. Now I can hear GREE thinking... but why?

It is simple really... Value for money.

Now it depends how you calculate this value for money. I think GREE calculates it as $ spent / time spent and why I think they keep throwing event after event upon us, so that we are playing the game constantly, in order to get this perceived value for money. This value for money is very subjective because it is different for each person, in how much they spend on the game both in terms of time and money, as well as what you compare it to. Of course, if you compare it to other forms of entertainment, it might be different. However, I prefer to compare apples with other apples.

So if you compare it like for like with other games, such as the old one-off pricing model with games like Diablo 3, it is very expensive in terms of value for money, even when using the $ spent / time spent equation. It is also very expensive in terms of value for money when you compare it with newer subscription models such as WoW. So in essence, this new freemium model with in-app purchases is the least value for money out of all the pricing models in the gaming industry but here is the caveat... it all depends on YOU. The decision is now in YOUR hands as to how much YOU are willing to pay and it is evident that some people keep on paying without really understanding how much they are parting with until they open that dreaded iTunes statement. I think 80% of people who pay to play would not be able to tell me exactly how much they have spent on this game and when they do check, they would get some form of bill shock.

Now to go back to my dear old friend, he still has some gold left in the hopper from his gold bonuses that he got from GREE and he has made the decision to come back to our faction for the final few events until his gold runs out. Our faction isn't just about spending as much gold as one can. We have strategy and tactics in the form of guides that I wrote and currently writing for the FLTQ because as a faction officer, it is my duty to ensure that my team members who do buy gold, spend it effectively rather than wastefully which definitely occurs in the top 50 factions.

Now once that gold is gone, he will probably say his goodbyes, but I can assure you that with all the money that he does earn and have, even with the amount he did spend on this game, he just doesn't see any value for the money he has spent on it and I tend to agree.

I do spend money on gold in this game, but I limit my purchases and for me, a month's play equates to one night out and since I have children, I don't go out very much these days. Even with this amount, I still do not see it as value for money when I compare it to other pricing models in the gaming industry and that is what I compare it to, not what GREE likes to compare it to, which is time spent on this game.

[jonmischler]

I agree with both you and Dutchie.

Before I start, I'll have a double shot of your finest scotch, Tommy. Two ice cubes.

But I must disagree, Robes. I love your attempt to have a get together here with Gree and it's associates, and trust me, I would love for it to happen. I couldn't ask for better weather, either.



Ah, my drink made it. Thank you, Tommy....he put far too much ice...how long has he been bartending? Not to offend, of course. Let me just take a couple of these out....okay.

Anyway, Gree doesn't seem to want to open up and get to know us. You must have read the article. Gree brings in 2.3 million dollars USD per 3-4 day live event. They make their money either way. Everyone threatens to quit and stop spending gold and it hardly ever happens. If they can continue to keep things this way, they can get away with sorry programming errors and less-than-pathetic customer service. As long as they offer inflated units and over-the-top events, people will be attracted. It's become a snowball effect. Top players took the top spots, and everyone else followed suit. The top tens control the best stats and get the best experience and every other faction/player tries to catch up. It's all psychological. Humans naturally want to be the best. Even if they continued to offer a bad quality experience, those that get sick of it will be filled in by others. They found an amazing business model, and the only way to win is to not play.

Dutchie, you make a great point about the legitimacy of the amount of gold you get vs. how much you actually spend. $20 goes nowhere in this game. Back when Modern War started, the amount of units you could get vs. average stats of players equaled out so a little gold actually went a long way. But now that everyone over spends and constantly competes against each other, inflation is moving too fast. It is honestly the players fault that gold worth has dropped so much. We spent too much and got too strong. Why would Gree lower the price of gold if they know you will buy it for the price it's at? Think about it.
In 1998, Chicago citizens boycotted the purchase of any motor vehicle fuel product for 24 hours. The gas companies lost so much money from one day of no sales, gas prices dropped over $1 the next day. We can only fix inflation by not spending as a whole. Since lower factions will take advantage and secretly spend to beat higher factions if this did happen, the higher factions would have no choice but to defend themselves, so spending would still continue. You can't put up an armistice in this situation. We'll just have to ride out the storm, sadly.

As a side note, I'm not complaining. I've been offered spots in Top Ten factions, including SUP and iBob. I'm under level 90 and almost half a million stats. I have spent $20 since I started playing in April. I didn't join a big faction, therefore I get jealous about the units I don't get. It's natural. But I get over it, because I play with strategy, so I can play for free. Always remember, you don't have to do it.

[I am a cow]

Welcome Gree staff. First, this is not a hostile thread. This thread was created so we could have a "get to know you better" experience.

First, take a look at the lovely beach where we'll be meeting today:

Isn't it great?

Behind you is our beach bartender Tommy. His mai-tai is excellent. Just let him know what you want to drink, and put it on my tab.


So let me introduce myself. I'm Robespierre, but my friends call me Robes. Since we're all friends here, call me Robes, please.

I've been lurking around the forums for a while, but I just got a little more involved as things seem to have heated up here a little bit.

I wanted to get together with you to explain a few things, and maybe get a little insight from you as well.

First we really appreciate the work you are doing. Without you, all of the issues we have would be going unresolved. I have been thinking about it a lot, and I imagine that you have a very difficult job as being the interaction between the company and the customers--you're really "where the rubber hits the road" so to say.

Oh! our drinks are here...you all ordered the same one? Well anyways...


I wanted to let you know that we recognize that you have an incredibly demanding position, working in between so many different groups of people: the regular customers, extremely agitated customers, your own staff, the development staff, and of course, management.

And between the customers and the management, their goals are at nearly opposite spectrums. Within this current game design, the customers are trying to get as much experience gaming for the least amount of cost, where management is looking to get the most revenue for the least amount of expense. That's business school 101, and nobody here is expecting any less.

And you are caught in between these two competing groups: trying to implement management's plans while having to deal with direct customer feedback, and nearly all of it around here has been of a negative nature recently.

So let's address the negativity...just get it out in the open. From what I can gather, it's frustration. And frustration can be a very difficult situation to deal with, both as a customer and having to work with those frustrations as you address the issue at hand.

So where do these frustrations come from? I think it has to do with consumer expectations. To be frank, the customers around here expect that they will get what they pay for, be it in time, community building, or in actual cash transactions. Now once cash transactions enter the relationship, consumers expect a higher degree of satisfaction for the goods and services that they are purchasing.

The expectation that the product or service will be as advertised and will perform as it's supposed to do is paramount. This is the bug issue. You know what they are much more than I do, so I won't try to act like I know it all. But it is a major issue...people are paying for an experience, and when basic functions are not up to par, you can expect some negative feedback.

Oh Cool. Tommy sent over another round. Try these out, they're great.


The second major area of frustration is transparency, and can be linked to accusations of trying to use unfair tactics to increase revenue. My primary examples are the crate events, and the frozen leaderboard in the latest WD event.

In the crate event, where using gold options to "open" a crate initially gives out tokens, later stages of the event have lower occurrences of receiving the token; instead you get a "booby" prize. First, none of the booby prizes are disclosed, so we have no way to know of knowing what we may get. Second, there are no disclosed odds of what you will get on the increasingly "difficult" chances of getting a crate. Failing to disclose odds on a gambling event that you control may have more consequences than just customer dissatisfaction. Games of chance and luck are heavily regulated for the above reasons.

The second transparency concern is that in the last WD event, the leaderboard was frozen for the final hour or two of the event. Some factions saw that they were near the next prize tier, and made a gold-funded push to increase their points to make it into the next prize tier. The frozen leaderboard enticed those factions to make the push, only to be using frozen data and splash screens (despite repeatedly hitting the "refresh" button) stating their current position when the live data would have been more accurate. Some factions made it past the actual prize tier, yet there were factions that were relying on the frozen leaderboard and splash screens stating that they were comfortably in the next tier...those hundreds of players are justifiably upset because what was shown to them was not accurate, and violated their consumer expectations.

WD points are also an issue. How these numbers are generated perplexes quite a few of us, and the fact that players that have been here the longest are given the fewest points demonstrates either an uncaring attitude or a bald-faced attempt to generate more revenue by giving lousy points. I hope this isn't the case.

Now I know that these kinds of things may not be at your level to address, but perhaps our conversation today could be one of many where we get together for a chat to go over the current "customer barometer." Some of us are still here, and we are noticing the growing occurrences of going to raid a base, only to find it completely naked...the player had made the ultimate scorched-earth decision to leave nothing behind for anyone.

We enjoy this game, and it can be better. We are aware of the pressures on your team to make revenue goals, as any business should. We can help with revenues when we have a solid product that is fair to the players. So, I hope that would be a primary goal that could address a lot of issues here.

And lastly, hang out around here and get to know us better! Nobody is expecting any special favors from you, but if we could get to know your team a bit better, I'm sure things would warm up nicely. I get to know the business providers in my community, and those relationships have benefited both of us. So let's work on building those community ties so stepping in the forum isn't like jumping into an icy lake.

I'm glad we had the chance to get together, and feel free to introduce yourselves and let us know what kinds of things you do around the office--plenty of us probably do the same thing, so we have more in common than you would expect.

Take care, and I look forward to your feedback.

Warmest regards.

Don't mind if I do!

[Ghost-12]

This thread is by far one of the best i have read since i joined this forum!
Educated, Gives you an inside on what`s going on with Old players frustrations and new players as well...
From crate events , Wd points to frozen leaderboards! it has it all.
-I will add one more which I dont get tired of repeating every time i get a chance.
"Customer supports" Needs some drastic improvement! Perhaps add a chat option where players can actually
get their issues Fixed on the spot without having to wait 5 days for an email with the same
exact words " your ticket is now closed, we will forward your issues to the developers", Then you are left with
nothing! try finding comfort by reading others problems and telling yourself that he had it worse...

I thank you Robespierre for posting this awesome thread, Hats off to you sir!

[Dutchie]

...Humans naturally want to be the best. Even if they continued to offer a bad quality experience, those that get sick of it will be filled in by others. They found an amazing business model, and the only way to win is to not play.

Dutchie, you make a great point about the legitimacy of the amount of gold you get vs. how much you actually spend. $20 goes nowhere in this game. Back when Modern War started, the amount of units you could get vs. average stats of players equaled out so a little gold actually went a long way. But now that everyone over spends and constantly competes against each other, inflation is moving too fast. It is honestly the players fault that gold worth has dropped so much. We spent too much and got too strong. Why would Gree lower the price of gold if they know you will buy it for the price it's at? Think about it.

In 1998, Chicago citizens boycotted the purchase of any motor vehicle fuel product for 24 hours. The gas companies lost so much money from one day of no sales, gas prices dropped over $1 the next day. We can only fix inflation by not spending as a whole. Since lower factions will take advantage and secretly spend to beat higher factions if this did happen, the higher factions would have no choice but to defend themselves, so spending would still continue. You can't put up an armistice in this situation. We'll just have to ride out the storm, sadly.

As a side note, I'm not complaining. I've been offered spots in Top Ten factions, including SUP and iBob. I'm under level 90 and almost half a million stats. I have spent $20 since I started playing in April. I didn't join a big faction, therefore I get jealous about the units I don't get. It's natural. But I get over it, because I play with strategy, so I can play for free. Always remember, you don't have to do it.

What a great show of self restraint as well as choosing the path of strategy, but this is not a choice made by all. Although the business model is one of cleverly tapping into human nature and conscience, in the long run, I don't think it is a sustainable model. I already see prominent players leaving both in CC and MW due to inflated stats whereby the money that has already been spent on it yesterday, has even less perceived value today.

But you are right, the price point has been set and accepted by the players now. The pandora box has been opened and there is no going back. There have been threats of boycotts before, but by the very nature of this game and with the increased stats inflation, they will never happen as someone else will just leap frog them as they sit out an event.

But is does beg the question as to why one should spend money today, when a year down the line, I can get much better stats through stats inflation for the same amount of money. Akin, albeit the opposite but with the same results, to the deflationary period that has occurred in Japan in the last 20 years. Japanese people didn't spend money on the knowledge that the product would be cheaper a year later and so the vicious cycle continued until the BoJ came up with a plan to print money to infinity to stimulate inflation.

But I digress and it is obvious that players continue to spend on this game, in some cases in large amounts, because GREE have tapped into the human psyche of being the best and creating competition with one another through the social element of factions, regardless of the fact that their stats will be worth nothing in a year's time. Some are beginning to wake up and smell the coffee, others are too engaged and blinded to see for what this game really is. Doesn't matter either way, it is their choice as to what they do.

I, for one, once I am done with this game, will not buy into any freemium game model in the future whether this is by GREE or any other gaming company. It is far too easy to get sucked and then trapped into these games. I don't mind paying a one off fee or a fixed subscription model to a game that also has a social element to it, where it lends itself to a more even playing field rather than a race of who has the most money to spunk on it. These freemium models lend to a vicious cycle of gameplay that can turn into a very expensive habit if not checked properly as it is far too easy to let it get out of control as there are no controls or limits.

I am sure that there many other people who are thinking along the same lines. Once bitten, twice shy and that is why I think this business model is not sustainable in the long run. Time will tell!

Peace out!

[MagnusDux]

Damit some people have truly too much time on their hands... Cheers!

I'll take shot of freezer vodka. Straight, no ice, no chaser.

And back to work.

[jjm521]

Man, great post, and professionally approached. Great point on the crate events!

[Bosc]

Very well put, well said, and to the point............. now off to the bank to get a loan for more gold

[Killa Chunk]

I like it. bump

[Evil Mastermind]

Valid points and I commend you on the efforts to keep it lighthearted and fun. However, I predict that your pleas will fall on deaf ears. Players have begged and threatened many times. All of the things you have requested would only reduce player spending. That is not within GREE's business model.

Keeping players in the dark is one of the easiest ways to promote increased spending. The other little "tricks" are done for the exact same reason. The frozen leaderboards, lack of odds on chance events, lower WD points and every other "hidden" mechanic is no accident. GREE knows exactly what they are doing and by the looks if it...it works.

I have to commend GREE on the creation of faction play. They no longer have to do all the work in order to promote spending. They have the players doing it for them. All they have to do now is dangle the carrot each time. Faction leaders/members push their players to spend in order to remain atop the food chain. VPP (virtual peer pressure) was pure genius GREE... pure genius I say.

Cheers,
Evil M.

[Dutchie]

Valid points and I commend you on the efforts to keep it lighthearted and fun. However, I predict that your pleas will fall on deaf ears. Players have begged and threatened many times. All of the things you have requested would only reduce player spending. That is not within GREE's business model. Keeping players in the dark is one of the easiest ways to increase spending. The other little "tricks" are done for the exact same reason. The frozen leaderboards, lack of odds on chance events, and every other "hidden" mechanic is no accident. GREE knows what they are doing and by the looks if it...it works. Cheers,Evil M.

Sad but true. They are in the business of making money and boy do they do it well. However over the long-term, I am sure it will eventually affect their bottom line as people see the error of their ways!