Theorycrafting: solved the Epic Boss damage!

[Sir.]

It's actually 2/3, which is why it was rounded to .67 (because .6 repeating is way too much of a pain)...
This is also why it was suggested to shift the equation to represent no advantage as a coefficient of 1 and thus
Single elemental advantage as 1.5 (for +50%)
Dual elemental advantage as 2 (for +100%)

It seems anyone who wants to utilize this, will have to just decide how they want to handle it. Just pick which of the equations you want to utilize (sir. Did a good job of shifting it to the coefficients listed above)

Good math, sir. (been there with the face/desk many times in the past myself)


Currently trying to trip level 43 without a nemesis armor (one more attempt at using 7 energy then 6 where I take two maxed nemisis friends along - last attempt I had 4 misses and boss had 3 extra critical = doomed)

Ty sir. Level 43 without nemesis yourself is possible, been confirmed today. Good luck.

[ang1977]

So the "coolnes" of armour is not the attack+defence, but attack*defence. Someone should edit the spreadsheet.

that is why free* armours by epic bosses mostly come with unbalance stats.....either def too high with low att, or att overwhelm with miserable def. recent half dragon and twin jian still ok.

[L C]

Ty sir. Level 43 without nemesis yourself is possible, been confirmed today. Good luck.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.
I did just complete level 43 on second attempt (didn't have such bad luck this time with misses and critical hits by boss, but did finish it on my last hit).
---first pass: minion in Atlantean+, hero in swamp shaman+, pair of friends in nemesis (everything maxed of course)
-----second pass: hero in swamp shaman+, pair of friends in nemesis
This is a far cry from passing 60 for the past couple weeks

[BethMo]

Congratulations LC!

I would really appreciate it if some under-level-100 player(s) would record their knights stats, boss level, and the damage done to them and against them for each hit for a few fights and post it here. I'd like to see whether player level affects damage the same way that boss level does.

[indestructigal]

Level does not influence player damage the same way it affects boss damage. Instead, it seems to affect the base damage value:

Fixed table below thanks to Raistmar and L C pointing out that I messed up the elemental bonuses.

Legend:
KLvl - knight level
KAtt - knight armor attack
BLvl - boss level
BDef - boss defense
Dam - visible damage
Num - bonus due to number of knights (most tests run with one knight only)
Ele - bonus due to elemental advantage
UnM - unmodified damage (Dam/(Num*Ele))
Base Dam - (UnM*BDef/KAtt)

These tests were run against Sasquatch at level 52 with non-advantageous armor (Hydra Hunter) and at 60 with single element advantage (Living Flame). So, instead of 246, the base damage value at 60 seems to be 200 and at 52 it is 196, at least against Sasquatch.

It would be interesting to see if your base damage value at 100 is still 246 against Sasquatch or if it changed with the new boss.

[Raistmar]

Don't know anything bout numbers but I just want point out hydra has an elemental advantage over Sasquatch hydra fire/water Sasquatch earth/spr. Fire>spr.

Also living flame has double advantage fire>spr and spr>earth.

Don't know if it affects your calculation though.

[L C]

Definitely effects the calculation of base damage. good call, raistmar.

I also haven't delved heavily into this specific question, but was suspecting that knight level affected damage based purely on the increase in base stats with each level (up to 100). But I freely acknowledge that I haven't spent time on this portion of the calculations.

Still, good data accumulation by indestructigal. {tips hat}

[indestructigal]

Oops! You're right ... I completely missed that. This solves my problem ... apparently Knight base damage goes up by 2.5 per level.

KLvl	KAtt	BLvl	BDef	Dam	Num	Ele	UnM	Base
60	951	4	172	1105	1	1.33	831	150.27
60	951	5	192	990	1	1.33	744	150.28
60	951	6	212	897	1	1.33	674	150.35
60	951	7	232	819	1	1.33	616	150.22
60	951	8	252	754	1	1.33	567	150.22
60	951	9	272	699	1	1.33	526	150.32
60	951	10	315	753	1.25	1.33	453	150.02
60	951	11	308	617	1	1.33	464	150.25
60	951	12	323	588	1	1.33	442	150.16
60	951	13	339	561	1	1.33	422	150.36
60	951	13	339	701	1.25	1.33	422	150.31
60	951	14	339	701	1.25	1.33	422	150.31
60	951	16	386	738	1.5	1.33	370	150.15
								
52	938	2	142	864	1	1.00	864	130.80
52	938	3	152	807	1	1.00	807	130.77
52	938	4	172	713	1	1.00	713	130.74
52	938	5	192	639	1	1.00	639	130.80
52	938	6	212	578	1	1.00	578	130.64
52	938	7	232	528	1	1.00	528	130.59
52	938	8	252	486	1	1.00	486	130.57
52	938	9	272	451	1	1.00	451	130.78

So, my base damage at level 52 is 2.5*52 = 130 and at level 60 is 150 = 2.5*60. So, at 100, the base is really 250 ... the numbers are all just a bit skewed by rounding errors.

This makes the formula: Elem Bonus*Number Bonus*(Knight Level *2.5)*(Knight Attack)/(Boss Defense)

Thanks!

[indestructigal]

Just one quick follow-up, I happened to have an opportunity to collect data at level 61 against a level 17 Sasquatch.

At level 17, Sasquatch has 401 DEF. My Knight was level 61 wearing Living Flame with 953 ATT and had two friends helping. Using the formula, this is

ROUND(1.5 * 1.33 * 61 * 2.5 * 953 / 401, 0) = 723.

In combat, I was doing exactly 723 damage against Sasquatch.



The Boss damage formula still seems completely boggling. The formula BethMo posted in the OP definitely fits the data I've collected, but it seems very inelegant. I suspect that it is really close, but not exactly what the game uses. My Boos damage data also has slightly different results against level 52 knights vs level 60 knights. I haven't been able to figure out if this is just a rounding error or if defending knight level actually fits in the formula somewhere.

[BethMo]

Sir dot asked me to add this:
Level 15 = pseudolevel 18-and-a-fraction
Level 21 = pseudolevel 24 (+3)
Level 28 = pseudolevel 31 (+3)
Level 35 = pseudolevel 39 (+4)
Level 43 = pseudolevel 47 (+4)
Level 51 = pseudolevel 55 (+4)
Level 60 = pseudolevel 67 (+7)

[BethMo]

I don't think that's worth investigating.
You have to consider your health is vastly inferior to the boss's health.
Taking a minimum of 50% damage to deal even 50-100% more damage to the boss is a losing strategy.

Not always!

I pulled in a quote from near the beginning of this thread, because exactly this situation has come up this week (Flame Eater red-white boss). For my second knight, I had to choose between a level 70 swamp shaman+ and a mid-level tortoise+. As it turns out, the swamp shaman (two advantage elements, but one disadvantage) does more damage over the lifetime of the knight. And even when I get the tortoise leveled up, the swamp shaman will still be my third knight, as it's better than any of my other current choices.

(The swamp+ is close to twice the lifetime damage of my level 62 barbarian+ red-white, btw... that extra damage multiplier is overwhelming.)

[Raistmar]

Just bumping this awsome thread, such a waste to see this get buried.

[Musketeer]

I've been number crunching, and I believe I've approximated the formulas used to compute damage in the Epic Boss fights. These calculations come within 2 points of the actual damage for all of the hits I've recorded.

----------

Base Damage to boss by a level 100 knight = 246 * (my attack / boss armor) * advantage factor.
Advantage factor:
1 for single advantage element (i.e. Swamp Shaman vs. Jian)
1.33 for double advantage elements (i.e. AA armor vs Jian)
3 for Nemesis

This damage is then multiplied by 1, 1.25, 1.5, 1.75, or 2 depending on number of knights. Special attack gets an additional 1.5x multiplier. Some attacks will randomly get a miss (zero damage) or a critical hit (same as special attack).

----------

Damage done by the boss is more complicated; it depends on the boss's level, not just on its attack score. That's why the Jian at level 14 does a lot less damage than the last few week's bosses at level 60, even though they have the same attack/defense values. (Damage done by the knights may depend on the knight's level, too; I only have data from level 100 knights.)

----------

Base Damage to knight with no opposing elements = (boss attack / my armor) * magic number
Magic number:
Jian levels 1-19: 3 * (pseudolevel + 4)
Jian levels 20-?: (1.6 * pseudolevel) + 43 (tested up to level 37)
pseudolevel is the boss level except at the reward levels, where it's equal to the real level that is closest to the same attack/defense values. (level 15 = pseudolevel 19, level 21 = pseudolevel 24, level 28 = pseudolevel 31, level 35 = pseudolevel 39, etc. Level 60 = pseudolevel 67!)

----------

As with knight attacks, some boss attacks will randomly get a miss (zero damage) or a critical hit (1.5x damage).

I didn't start keeping detailed records of boss damage early enough to closely check this against previous bosses, but it matches for the ones that I did record.

I'm going to change my main knight's name to Theorycrafter now.

I see this has been said before, but if you start with base damage of 164 instead of 246 you avoid the rounding errors.

Thus:

No elemental advantage (why would you?) damage = 164 * (Your att/Boss Def)
One elemental advantage, damage = 164 * (Your att/Boss Def)*1.5
Two elemental advantages, damage = 164 * (Your att/Boss Def)*2
Nemesis damage = 164 * (Your att/Boss Def)*3

And them multiply as before by the 'number of knights' bonus.

Edit: Just tested this on the first 9 levels of Boreas and it worked perfectly. Any fractional hits are discarded, not rounded up.

Edit 2: Dragon attacks against my knight are not quite right by the formula, at least on level 12, but only out by 1 damage.

[Lii]

So, I got sick of making qualified guesses for how many knights and which armors to use and instead implemented something that took all the great knowledge in this thread into account and helped me decide how to best beat the epic boss. That something ended up being tremendously helpful and I thought that it might help someone else too.

You can find my epic boss battle calculator on the following spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Gc&usp=sharing

As it would probably be chaos if everyone used the same spreadsheet you will have to copy the workbook to you own google docs before you can use it. Not sure how selfexplanatory it is, but if you have questions feel free to thrown them at me.

Now this is my first version so there are a few things that it does not take into account. The biggest caveat currently is that I do not believe it works 100% for players below 100+. If someone have more info on that feel free to tell me and maybe I can change the calculator to take that into account too.

Thanks everyone in this thread for posting your findings and making it possible for me to do this

Happy hunting!

[Roark]

thank you for this!

my next battle versus level 27 boss: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...5X0FwT2c#gid=5

need to finish my flame summoner's shroud+, and I'm still waiting on Pyromancer's+, it will complete in 18 hours