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  1. #1
    BethMo's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Theorycrafting: solved the Epic Boss damage!

    I've been number crunching, and I believe I've approximated the formulas used to compute damage in the Epic Boss fights. These calculations come within 2 points of the actual damage for all of the hits I've recorded.

    ----------
    Base Damage to boss by a level 100 knight = 246 * (my attack / boss armor) * advantage factor.
    Advantage factor:
    1 for single advantage element (i.e. Swamp Shaman vs. Jian)
    1.33 for double advantage elements (i.e. AA armor vs Jian)
    3 for Nemesis

    This damage is then multiplied by 1, 1.25, 1.5, 1.75, or 2 depending on number of knights. Special attack gets an additional 1.5x multiplier. Some attacks will randomly get a miss (zero damage) or a critical hit (same as special attack).

    ----------

    Damage done by the boss is more complicated; it depends on the boss's level, not just on its attack score. That's why the Jian at level 14 does a lot less damage than the last few week's bosses at level 60, even though they have the same attack/defense values. (Damage done by the knights may depend on the knight's level, too; I only have data from level 100 knights.)

    ----------
    Base Damage to knight with no opposing elements = (boss attack / my armor) * magic number
    Magic number:
    Jian levels 1-19: 3 * (pseudolevel + 4)
    Jian levels 20-?: (1.6 * pseudolevel) + 43 (tested up to level 37)
    pseudolevel is the boss level except at the reward levels, where it's equal to the real level that is closest to the same attack/defense values. (level 15 = pseudolevel 19, level 21 = pseudolevel 24, level 28 = pseudolevel 31, level 35 = pseudolevel 39, etc. Level 60 = pseudolevel 67!)
    ----------

    As with knight attacks, some boss attacks will randomly get a miss (zero damage) or a critical hit (1.5x damage).

    I didn't start keeping detailed records of boss damage early enough to closely check this against previous bosses, but it matches for the ones that I did record.

    I'm going to change my main knight's name to Theorycrafter now.

  2. #2

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    very nice number crunching! This can help our understanding of fighting the boss.

    Confused tho, as it looks like your formula says that there is the same damage against the boss for no advantage element and 1 advantage element. That doesn't seem like it should be true.


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  3. #3
    BethMo's Avatar
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    I don't have any numbers for no advantage elements -- for the weeks I've been working on this, I've always had 3 armors that were good against the boss. Next week I'll throw some non-advantage armor at the lowest level boss and see what that does. My guess is that it will be a multiplier less than 1, probably .75 or .66.

    I've been using these formulas in a spreadsheet to optimize my friend usage against Jian. It's a big help! (Though the whiffs and criticals still give it enough randomness that too much attempted optimization can kill you. I lost the level 25 fight by 463 hitpoints whiffing four times, grrr!)

  4. #4

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    thank you so much!! I started a keeping track on the damages done to and against the boss last week, but I got lazy and never finished. Also, I couldn't manage to figure out the formula for damage, so I'm glad you did! Thanks a lot!

  5. #5
    Sir.'s Avatar
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    Nice work! Is the advantage factor the same for boss hits on you though? This would be something to take in consideration on last boss by example (where fire/water maxes out your damage for non-nemesis, but is countered by Siren's water element).
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  6. #6
    BethMo's Avatar
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    That's a very good question. I haven't used any armor that gave the boss extra damage against me, just assumed that it's a bad idea, but if it increases my damage more than it increases his that could be a winning tactic. If the boss next week goes back to a normal difficulty and I have an appropriate armor, I'll do some testing on that.

    Or maybe someone else will jump in with some numbers for us.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by BethMo View Post
    That's a very good question. I haven't used any armor that gave the boss extra damage against me, just assumed that it's a bad idea, but if it increases my damage more than it increases his that could be a winning tactic. If the boss next week goes back to a normal difficulty and I have an appropriate armor, I'll do some testing on that.

    Or maybe someone else will jump in with some numbers for us.
    I don't think that's worth investigating.

    You have to consider your health is vastly inferior to the boss's health.

    Taking a minimum of 50% damage to deal even 50-100% more damage to the boss is a losing strategy.

    You will die significantly quicker than it would take to make it worthwhile.

    Consider the odds he hits his critical and the chance you miss entirely.

    Stick to dealing 50% more and avoiding wearing weakness.
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  8. #8
    BethMo's Avatar
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    That's been my assumption, but I haven't actually checked the numbers. For that matter, for normal mortals who don't have every armor in the world (Eunuchorn can ignore this) there will be cases where you have to choose between a level 70 with bad elements and a level 50-or-lower with good elements. It would be good to get some actual data for making these choices.

  9. #9

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    I knew you were special when you posted them numbers on boss damages. <3

  10. #10

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    Numbers make me sleepy

  11. #11

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    Great work, but long ago someone posted the info you are missing about using non-boosted armor.
    Plus you can check the boosting damage data via a friend battle, in arena, or against an enemy.

    Armor with no elemental advantage provides a multiplier of 1
    Single elemental boost gets a 50% boost for a multiplier of 1.5
    Double elemental boost gets a 100% boost for a multiplier of 2

    (This holds true for the data you already collected: double elemental boost gets 33% more damage when compared to a single elemental boost: 2x>1.5x)
    X=10). 20>15 by 5, 33%
    X=100). 200>150 by 50, 33%

    Also, level matters for us only up to level 100 because we gain stats to that point and then remain constant.
    Not a lot of point in farming bosses for their armor before level 100 (though about level 80 was capable of tier 43 without gems before this boss), so nothing wrong with focusing on level 100 IMO.

    Elemental boost damage done by boss holds true to same format as well.

    Great work at top of this thread, if you tweak the formulas to be initiated with non-boosted elemental damage, I think it deserves to be included in the guides or stickied (though I think the guide would be the best place to avoid too many stickies).

    Longtime lurker, first time poster (obviously)

    Hating new boss format (just hit top 25 against boss last war and failed to get nemesis with 17 DPCs), hoping it doesn't stick around.

  12. #12
    Sir.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L C View Post
    [...]

    Armor with no elemental advantage provides a multiplier of 1
    Single elemental boost gets a 50% boost for a multiplier of 1.5
    Double elemental boost gets a 100% boost for a multiplier of 2

    (This holds true for the data you already collected: double elemental boost gets 33% more damage when compared to a single elemental boost: 2x>1.5x)
    X=10). 20>15 by 5, 33%
    X=100). 200>150 by 50, 33%

    [...]
    The advantage multiplier from damage you do on the boss is different than in pvp, in your format this is:

    Armor with no elemental advantage is unknown.
    Single elemental boost gets a 0% boost for a multiplier of 1
    Double elemental boost gets a 33% boost for a multiplier of 1.33

    This is where he gets the 1.33 from, not from an increase in damage boost as you calculated.

    Given the fact that your elemental advantage on the boss isn't the same as in pvp, it's definitely not sure that the pvp damage boost goes for the boss's damage on you.
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  13. #13
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    "pseudolevel is the boss level except at the reward levels, where it's equal to the real level that is closest to the same attack/defense values. (level 15 = pseudolevel 19, level 21 = pseudolevel 24, level 28 = pseudolevel 31, level 35 = pseudolevel 39, etc. Level 60 = pseudolevel 67!)"

    What do you mean by this ? Can you clarify
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  14. #14
    Sir.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Budd View Post
    "pseudolevel is the boss level except at the reward levels, where it's equal to the real level that is closest to the same attack/defense values. (level 15 = pseudolevel 19, level 21 = pseudolevel 24, level 28 = pseudolevel 31, level 35 = pseudolevel 39, etc. Level 60 = pseudolevel 67!)"

    What do you mean by this ? Can you clarify
    At reward levels (at the end of a ribbon) the boss is stronger than it would have been otherwise. You might have noticed level 15 boss is stronger than level 16, by example. The pseudolevel 19 for level 15 mean, means that the boss at level 15 has the strength of the level 19 boss.
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  15. #15
    Sir.'s Avatar
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    Perhaps this is a good place to keep track of the epic energy drops too. Another theory started by yourself:

    Quote Originally Posted by BethMo View Post
    I was under the impression that the energy drops are random or semi-random. Let's compare notes! I'm up to Jian level 37; I've gotten energy drops at levels 3, 5, 26, 31, 33, and 36.
    I just got a drop at level 21.
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