Suddenly lots of 56 to 60 member guilds

[Dexter Morgan]

If they don't agree with you, you're a "troll". If they don't understand you, you're talking "gibberish". That's how some of the old time members on this forum roll.

By "old time members" are you referring to the members that made this forum worth reading with useful information? So then I can classify you as one of the "youngsters" that offers nothing helpful or constructive to the forums, and is the reason the forums are going in the wrong direction. Sounds about accurate right?

[mee notyou]

Hello all !

I have read the 8 pages of posts and find some very interesting points of view, yet not converging.
The issue is apparently focusing on 56 to 60 members guilds, but is turning more clearly around the hackers problem and the Gree policy not (enough) enforced. It's also question of the gems boycott for the next war which is justified on many walls in the game because of the high pace of the war events and always during holidays WE for some people.

I am a member of a sixty members guild and not all bonuses unlocked. Shame on us, we used to have some gold hackers when all began with guilds (I was not in this guild, but this is not an excuse) and now what ?

- This guild is also the fruit of many other legitimate efforts of honest people (like I try to be in my life and in this game). Do these honest people deserve to see all these efforts disbanded ? Is there only one top guild which can give compelling evidences that in no way it has never benefited of a hacker : because of his donations or because of its non legitimate strength or because of his non legitimate gems ? The answers of the 2 questions are NO !!!

- What are the real benefits of hacked guild bonuses ??? That is the only good question of this thread ! (I apologize for my lack of humility). Indeed if we speak about top 50 guilds, even top 75 guilds I sincerely believe that it brings not that much :

*health regen ? No, it's a joke when we are speaking about (high) gem spenders (at least 85-90% of CPs are done with gems)

* Energy regen ? Still a joke as with a gain of 0.6 energy every minute you can't kill even a monster more in H mode and when finally you decide (or not) to put a mtn gems to finish this damned quests and get (or not) the precious unit ... Objectively not a benefit !

* Casualties rate ? Ok for this one ! You avoid loosing units being attacked or attacking and then being weaker or spending gold to rebuild. I don't understand why nobody speaks about this bonus, OK it's not visible !

* Same thing for the 2 buildings bonuses. But for these last 3 bonuses the benefits stay thin as all top guilds can afford till 3/5 legitimately (in my first guild, top 1250 !!, we could achieve 2/5 for these 3 bonuses before I left for the second war)

* And finally the much-maligned members bonus .... Again it makes me laugh at our level ... Last war, we were 2 warriors online monday morning and we attacked a guild doing just us 2 80k CP and incidentally winning the battle which was really not our intent but just doing points ! It's just a question of how many gems you put on the table and nothing else. Ok there are some free players in the top guilds and they do points doing free hits and also because they win when being attacked, but mainly the rank of their guild is done by gemspenders or rather I should say by gemspending almost regardless of the number of members !!!

Now just a rapid calculation for a free player fighting always full health:
Number of hours in a 3 days event = 72 hours
One battle every 2 hours gives 36 battles
Our free player has no life, poor needs to sleep and he attends 25 battles (I am sure some are doing this)
Number of free hits during one hour battles 7 to 10 according to different helth regen bonuses (only FUN should have 10)
Average CP per hit : 250 (you need to take into account that sometimes this player loose and sometimes he needs to hit on wall as he is a good teammate)
And the result is : 20 x (7 to 10) x 250 = 35000 to 50000 CP
I really thought that a very good free player does around 40K, not a bad approximation ! And we know that from far free players are not doing all 40K. In the same time a gemspender does 100k easily, 200k and even much more.

And we are speaking about the legitimacy of guilds having perhaps 6 guys as the benefit of hackers. In my guild the last 10 members did less than 5k all together... It's what we are talking so much about... If we had 6 fewer members, we would loose less thank 5k ... I am sure Gree knows that, and don't care because of the minor impact !

The real shame during guild wars is when a hacker comes to me with full highend gold units, weapons and armors and beat me doing points and casualties on me. It's even worse when it is honors units or gem units. And the climax is when he makes non legitimate gems hits. We, honest players should fight against this and not try to disband any guild with 2, 4 or even 6 members in excess. I report to Gree when I find hackers with full gold units and items : but never I got a feedback... I don't know if it is usefull...

And to finish with this issue, I have a word concerning the gems boycott. I am a legitimate gemspender (my own CP was over 500k last war) : I do not need moral lessons nor doctor for addiction ! I spend the money I earn the way I want, today it's for this game, tomorrow who knows ? The fact is I don't want our guild to be the victim of a bad bargain. All top top guilds seems very involved in this process but as long as the hierarchy is respected. This is hypocrisy : if the second comes too close we will do what is needed... No, If we all say no gem, it is no gem even if playing free makes the hierarchy moves !!!! Otherwise all guilds could say : Oh I am Nth guild, if the (N+1)th guild comes too close We will do what is needed !!! I much doubt of the sincere and sustainable commitment of top guilds. But I will observe how it goes just to respect those who believe in this process. And I am curious to see how we could finish in a whole non gem war!!!!!


That said I don't mind having wars every week or during weekday or just blitzkrieg. I am not attached to an absolute hierarchy which shouldn't be changed to let always same people benefit highest privileges making them unreachable, as respectable as they are !!

Have not read beyond this yet so I can only assume someone else has made the same comment I am about to. None-the-less, you mention that you joined a 60 member guild knowing that it was a hacked guild, yet honest people are contributing and it would not be fair for your guild to be disbanded because of your honest efforts. Fact of the matter is, simply, you joined a guild that you knew was hacked so if it gets disbanded and all your honest efforts are lost, you have no one to blame but yourself. You never should have joined that hacked guild in the first place.

As for your math about extra members not mattering, simple fact is that they do matter. There are several guilds in the Top 25 that are hacked, 60 member guilds. Without those extra players, they would not be scoring so highly.

Lastly, in regards to discrediting the health and energy regen bonuses, health regen speed does matter in wars because even us heavy gem spenders will time the gem rushes with free hits to ensure we are capitalizing on the free hits and getting better use out of the gems (and as for your math, 300 points per hit was our avg). That said, that is only wars. The maxed health and energy regen bonuses are a huge benefit in LTQs and, at the end of the day, that is helping members of hacked guilds increase their stats easier, and cheaper, than players not in hacked guilds...so in essence they are making the guild stronger for future wars.

Yes, I hope your guild is disbanded. Yes, I do not care if you lose all of your hard work. And yes, you have no one to blame but yourself.

[glitters]

By 'old time members' I refer to the members that have established some sort of "reputation" on this forum. They generally side with each other regardless of anything. Many of them are predisposed to declare a person that they disagree with a "troll". Once any one of them declares a person a troll, most of the other old timers tend to judge the "troll" before they read his posts.

When most of the old timers band together and beat the "troll" to death, it certainly does make the "troll" look like a troll. So all I can say to you young chicklings is disagree at your own risk!

Just an observation.

By "old time members" are you referring to the members that made this forum worth reading with useful information? So then I can classify you as one of the "youngsters" that offers nothing helpful or constructive to the forums, and is the reason the forums are going in the wrong direction. Sounds about accurate right?

[JPNy]

JPNy,
I understand you and others to state that you do not support hackers. Ultimately, it's a matter of integrity. Your guild benefits from the previous hackers by having more members to fight, donate, whatever the case may be. This is not fair to those guild, who are currently building and honestly working towards their goals. If you take money out of your account and suddenly have extra, keep it and use it, then you are just as at fault as someone who robs the bank. An honest person would turn the money in.

Thank you for your interesting reply which place the debate at a higher level. I didn't want to argue that there is no question of integrity in our situation. My intervention here is in a way sign that I don't feel comfortable with this situation and I could quit my guild because of that. In the other hand, where to go ? As I can't be sure that all other top guilds have in a way or another benefited from hackers activities and/or behave like the most cynical bankers or financial. So this witch-hunt against the most visible criterion, yet from far not the most impacting one, sounds like some players don't question, trying to find instead a scapegoat.

I have thought about that, these last hours at the light of this thread with lots of interesting information, and as far as we could follow the conclusions of emcee no guild should have more than 54 members and it's even worse if we add other guild bonuses and players with all highend gold units and items. It seems many more people should feel uncomfortable and question on their guild's integrity... Even those who cast me the first stone !!

... Perplexity ...

[JPNy]

Have not read beyond this yet so I can only assume someone else has made the same comment I am about to. None-the-less, you mention that you joined a 60 member guild knowing that it was a hacked guild, yet honest people are contributing and it would not be fair for your guild to be disbanded because of your honest efforts. Fact of the matter is, simply, you joined a guild that you knew was hacked so if it gets disbanded and all your honest efforts are lost, you have no one to blame but yourself. You never should have joined that hacked guild in the first place.

As for your math about extra members not mattering, simple fact is that they do matter. There are several guilds in the Top 25 that are hacked, 60 member guilds. Without those extra players, they would not be scoring so highly.

Lastly, in regards to discrediting the health and energy regen bonuses, health regen speed does matter in wars because even us heavy gem spenders will time the gem rushes with free hits to ensure we are capitalizing on the free hits and getting better use out of the gems (and as for your math, 300 points per hit was our avg). That said, that is only wars. The maxed health and energy regen bonuses are a huge benefit in LTQs and, at the end of the day, that is helping members of hacked guilds increase their stats easier, and cheaper, than players not in hacked guilds...so in essence they are making the guild stronger for future wars.

Yes, I hope your guild is disbanded. Yes, I do not care if you lose all of your hard work. And yes, you have no one to blame but yourself.

I have never stated that I joined knowing some hackers have worked on this guild. I have recently understood that, reading the forum and this type of threads. This make me question and come to the same conclusion than emcee.

I also do an average of 300 and even more last war. But I highly doubt that a free player can achieve this score taking into account that a wall hit or a loss will weigh heavily in a very lower total of hits.

Concerning health regen you can't count the whole bonuses as achieving 3/5 is highly legitimate and the diference gives nothing for boss event. But the hacked gold units does much much more.

I maintain that energy regen is just a joke : 5 days event = 7200 minutes = 21600 energy without bonuses and 26640 energy with full guild bonuses : you hardly achieve one more stage in H mode with that difference. Again the difference between 3/5 and 5/5 is even more tenuous.

[procsyzarc]

I have never stated that I joined knowing some hackers have worked on this guild. I have recently understood that, reading the forum and this type of threads. This make me question and come to the same conclusion than emcee.

I also do an average of 300 and even more last war. But I highly doubt that a free player can achieve this score taking into account that a wall hit or a loss will weigh heavily in a very lower total of hits.

Concerning health regen you can't count the whole bonuses as achieving 3/5 is highly legitimate and the diference gives nothing for boss event. But the hacked gold units does much much more.

I maintain that energy regen is just a joke : 5 days event = 7200 minutes = 21600 energy without bonuses and 26640 energy with full guild bonuses : you hardly achieve one more stage in H mode with that difference. Again the difference between 3/5 and 5/5 is even more tenuous.

Those bonuses may not mean much in your opinion but they cost a lot of money to unlock. By getting them for free due to hackers that frees up a lot of money for your members to gain un affair advantage other legitimate players cannot. Let’s give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you would have got to 52 members without the hackers. That is 3.9B in guild increases not including the other bonuses so we could assume your guild has saved at least 6B from hackers.

So your 52 members (probably would have been less since you would have had less recruiting power) have saved 6B to put towards other units/weapons/armor/IPH upgrades that is 115m per member you have the benefit of that you should not. That extra 115m gives you a huge increase in stats over players who need to contribute that gold to their guild to help it develop (hell even I am still not maxed with weapons and armor due to lack of gold and over half would be 0/3 or 2/0) . Now that you have increased your stats due to hackers you are also now powerful so it has flow on affects such as you can now raid/attack more people, can be attacked raided by less people, can get further in boss events, get more WD points by having higher stats to give a better selection of targets, this in turn makes your stronger again and benefits continues to increase.

Same goes with the bonuses that you think mean nothing, sure on the surface it may not seem it will make much difference but every little advantage whether it be one extra stage in heroic of a LTQ or boss makes you stronger than you should have been for the next so you can get further and further each time.

So try to justify it anyway you like but you are taking advantage of those hackers and enjoying the benefit, if you truly cared about being fair you would all leave the guild and start a new one with the legit players (which you claim is all of you now) and the only thing you would lose are those bonuses that you say don’t matter anyway, but we all know you won’t do that so why even try to justify it here. You got the benefit you are happy about it and a very unlikely to get banned for it so just move on there is no need for you to try and justify it here.

[[JAG] Ryan]

Thanks guys for the interesting posts.

Indeed the issue cant be split in simple black and white areas. Im pretty sure nobody wants or like hackers, especially as most people spend real money here. But many people took and take advantage out of it.
Is it really more honourable "just" to attack/raid a hacker vs. a hacker who spend the gold to the guild directly?
Is it ethical to attack a hacker ongoing and knowing or assuming that his big amount of gold possibly is not bought with real money? Is it fair to use the gold gained that way for yourself or for guild donations? I mean you even cant refuse to use this gold once received, right? Who have real proven track of all such situations? Should only the strongest be allowed to take advantage out of that issue? Or only the strong players with low ally numbers as many hackers have been seen on high levels but with low ally numbers? Does a guild really first needs to ask for a cv and proof of all itunes transactions prior accepting a new member or a donation?

The Real world has many grey shades as well as this game and this issue. It was stated somewhere before that raiding/attacking someone is part of this game. True. I assume that we all agree, that trying to steal someones unvaulted gold and increasing own stats is also part of the game. If i come across to someone having a huge amount of gold, should i first ask him about the proof how he managed to achieve this amount before attacking? No. Is it according the rules to attack? Yes. Is it ethical? ??? Depends on everyones own definition of honour.

But again, any advantage received through a hacker is not ok! But who should have the right to point his fingers on anyone taken or taking advantage out of that. Obviously only someone who never took any advantage, either through attacks/raids/guild bonuses or donations from team mates who took advantage knowingly or not.

I am not sure how many players are really able to confirm that. However, i agree that all actions which presume a knowing or awareness that someone has hacked and still taking personal advantage are closer to black than any other unknown related actions.

But In the end, everybody needs to answer this question by him/herself and should like what they see in the mirror.

[Ratma2001]

And to weigh in on this , my interpretation is ..
If Gree support done what they stated to do none of this would be here, and i would not be writing this, Gree support is to blame for all the Hackers (yes i will say the word) , JPny (sound familar to someone i know) you said that you reported the HACK to support..let me gues nothing was done ? as with all other reports of hacks..nothing gets done because in Gree's eye it accounts for ...whats that CJ54 1%..what a load of crock!, i have reported numerous players for hacking and guess what they still play, I mean honestly a player with IPH of $548 can have huge stats and +54,000 Clerics , honestly Gree do YOUR job if we (Players) report a potential hacker look into it, its not hard to spot them, heres a hint normally there losses are more than there wins, and captain obvious says so is the Millions in gold, how about a level 15 player with IPH $1623 with over 4Million in there bank ? reported still playing. Legitimate player are getting the short straw..its your program you know it back to front and inside out , if i can see these players you would find them in a heart beart..this is your job not mine, i dont get paid to do your job !
My "Rose coloured Interpretation" from ALL the posts on Hackers with in so many Guilds currently and the previous wars would be "Delete" whats been done and start again !, remove the culprits , change your program to stop this getting out of hand or going further ! next players will stop complaining about this and that and everything will be rosy !
Crikey i sent so many ticket not only to support but even CJ54 and not 1 of them were banned, Gree do what you are supposed to by keeping the wolf away! I've said it before and here we go again , Hacker WILL bring this game into disrepute sooner or later , but it looks like sooner.
I still have all my screenshots of all the hackers ive met whilst i was playing and I.D Numbers, If Administrators wish to ban me from using certain words or terms thats fine, i dont write much nowadays , but if your past is anything to go by you are quick to ban forum members for speaking out but very very slow to act on reports of ridding the 1 thing that stains this game and the reason why so many leave.
Look after your paying customers first before you look after the hackers Gree !

[JPNy]

All these alleged benefits are totally virtual because we all continue to contribute to the guild to buy walls and reach some other bonuses. All my stats increases come from my involvement in the game and the gems I spend to finish H mode or other events. I could really see the difference only when I began to spend gems, not before despite the so-called guild bonuses... I was already a strong free player when all this began.

But anyway if we do not fall agree on some points procsyzarc , you are right on several others and not the leasts for me (as is mee notyou) :
- some of our guild bonuses are not legitimate : 60 members at least
- even if it is for my part some non impacting benefits, it is still not honest to stay knowing that. I can only argue of my fisrt naivety and my good faith
- hackers and other cheaters are killing the game and it's a pity that Gree can't do more. I know it's a never-ending war !

That said, I couldn't stay in this guild and left just after my previous post. It's a top 75 guild, hope it has not caused damage too much ! I don't want to play in a guild now and yet I love so much war events! I will follow a bit what comes, continue playing alone and see if some honest guilds could make me enjoying again the war events.

One thing is sure tonight, a high gemspender will really boycott next war !
I didn't want to hurt anyone, otherwise my apologizes !

[mee notyou]

All these alleged benefits are totally virtual because we all continue to contribute to the guild to buy walls and reach some other bonuses. All my stats increases come from my involvement in the game and the gems I spend to finish H mode or other events. I could really see the difference only when I began to spend gems, not before despite the so-called guild bonuses... I was already a strong free player when all this began.

But anyway if we do not fall agree on some points procsyzarc , you are right on several others and not the leasts for me (as is mee notyou) :
- some of our guild bonuses are not legitimate : 60 members at least
- even if it is for my part some non impacting benefits, it is still not honest to stay knowing that. I can only argue of my fisrt naivety and my good faith
- hackers and other cheaters are killing the game and it's a pity that Gree can't do more. I know it's a never-ending war !

That said, I couldn't stay in this guild and left just after my previous post. It's a top 75 guild, hope it has not caused damage too much ! I don't want to play in a guild now and yet I love so much war events! I will follow a bit what comes, continue playing alone and see if some honest guilds could make me enjoying again the war events.

One thing is sure tonight, a high gemspender will really boycott next war !
I didn't want to hurt anyone, otherwise my apologizes !

I applaud you walking away and will give you the benefit of the doubt that it was naivety and ignorance. Because you are taking the moral high ground and are now without a guild, I offer you a place with us in BlackOps; currently ranked 11th, honest, and legit. We will be sandbagging the next war to see how things turn out so we will probably be on the bottom end of T25 or somewhere in T50. If not an issue for you, code is 992 690 068.

[Sir Marcus]

Taken in context, dear Morgan Sir Marcus is referring to the above text in bold

Yeah, don't put words in my mouth please.

If there are any legit guilds with 56 members, its FUN and RK. They're the top of the KA food chain, and have spent absurd amounts of real money on wars. Its reasonable to believe that they have higher than average IPH, higher than average than average raid income, and are much more willing to spend for the largest gold piles. Its also reasonable to believe that they have alternate farm accounts - so they could have effectively 100+ accounts across multiple devices contributing gold.

However, guilds with 60 members? If the top two can't do it, I just don't see how anyone else can - especially when there were a horde of 1/60 member guilds out there on day 1. Or 30/60 members today. Or people advertising "All bonuses unlocked".

Basic logging functions would let GREE know exactly when each guild unlocked which bonus. If a guild unlocks 10 bonuses in a single day - that's hacktastic. And it isn't exactly hard to spot.

[Sir Marcus]

As for your math about extra members not mattering, simple fact is that they do matter. There are several guilds in the Top 25 that are hacked, 60 member guilds. Without those extra players, they would not be scoring so highly.

Yes, I hope your guild is disbanded. Yes, I do not care if you lose all of your hard work. And yes, you have no one to blame but yourself.

This. One thing that makes hacking in guilds different from hacking before guilds existed is that illegitimate gains by hacker guilds steal prizes from legitimate players. Steal. Remove the benefits of real money expenditure from. Legitimate players are not getting what they're paying for.

So, yeah, if your guild was created by hackers, you deserve to get the guild disbanded. If your guild still has hackers, you deserve to get the guild disbanded. You also deserve to lose the guild war rewards your hacking obtained for you. And the people you stole from deserve to get the guild war rewards retroactively given to them.

Now, if or when any of happening depends on if or how GREE updates their policies to include a guild policy. But if it does happen, you did it to yourself. And honestly, it isn't even about you. It is about the people who spend real money getting what they pay for.

[Colony Colonel]

and that kicking a hacker out of your guild makes you a target to their 300 abominations attacking all of your buildings every 5 minutes........

[Johan -]

Yeah, don't put words in my mouth please.

If there are any legit guilds with 56 members, its FUN and RK. They're the top of the KA food chain, and have spent absurd amounts of real money on wars. Its reasonable to believe that they have higher than average IPH, higher than average than average raid income, and are much more willing to spend for the largest gold piles. Its also reasonable to believe that they have alternate farm accounts - so they could have effectively 100+ accounts across multiple devices contributing gold.

However, guilds with 60 members? If the top two can't do it, I just don't see how anyone else can - especially when there were a horde of 1/60 member guilds out there on day 1. Or 30/60 members today. Or people advertising "All bonuses unlocked".

Basic logging functions would let GREE know exactly when each guild unlocked which bonus. If a guild unlocks 10 bonuses in a single day - that's hacktastic. And it isn't exactly hard to spot.

hmhm...alternate farm accounts - so they could have effectively 100+ accounts across multiple devices contributing gold. ? So they should have many devices just to play better in KA??? I still keep having doubts that Guilds with 52+ members are 100% legit! ( even in FUN or the other Guilds, who says that some of their members will tell to the other members that they used a hack for donating gold!) We aren't living in paradise and the game is in a virtual world.

There is really sooo much gold for required, that is seems impossible in such a short time.
You want to say that beside the GEMS they buy, they also spend thousands of USD for unlocking the bonuses? 1,5mill gold for USD100,00 means 15 mill for USD1000,00 gives again 150 mill. for USD10.000,00 and again USD100.000,00 for 1,5 Bill., then you still need the same in gold to be able to unlock at least the member increase bonuses!

So? Really????
Assuming that when the guilds started, there weren't 50 members at ones in any of the guilds.
I think GREE created the guild wars, so that slowly the guilds could grow to 50~ 60 member sizes, normally spoken this would take at least 6 months for sure, what happened in KA was that within 1,5 months most guilds had member sizes of 50~60 members.

Meanwhile I read a lot about what was/is possible by using hacks, I read also that since approx.. 1 month GREE has patched all of that ( check Google search) , all is now controlled by the GREE server and also gold cannot be hacked anymore.

Furthermore, I think most of us are getting a little bit tired to read in almost every tread about hacking and what is and what is not, we should focus more on the game itself and enjoy it.

I trust GREE will take more actions, meanwhile I first want to see what will happen coming weekend during the Guild war, what will happen with the Guilds who said they will not use gems! Because I know for sure some other guilds will use gems and try to win the war.

[klevito]

[B]
Furthermore, I think most of us are getting a little bit tired to read in almost every tread about hacking and what is and what is not, we should focus more on the game itself and enjoy it.

1- it wont be long till you get "smashed", ridiculed and called the standard "troll", "hacker-lover", "gibberish talking" by one of the few dozen forum posters who belong to a top 10 guild and has more than 4-500 forum posts.
Some serious "holier than thou" trend going on.

2- To lighten up the debate a bit, let's play a "game".
- randomly pick any of the dozen or so posters who carry the signature "MoC"
- click on the profile and view latest posts going back 40-50 days.
- use ctrl+F to search for the word or words "hack", "hacker", "hacker-guild"

how many can you count