At what point can I stop obsessing about upgrading NCs?

[murf]

Do any of these models take into account the opportunity cost of banked money? In this game the money in the bank (or non-banked if you prefer) is literally worthless.

You could save 100MM over 100 days and buy a 100MM upgrade (leaving you with zero cash), or you can spend 100MM over 100 days on upgrades and at the end of the 100 days you should have more than zero, as the upgrades have been paying off as you go.

But taking the red pill will mean that 100MM upgrade is going to take more than 100 days. So we need to understand how much longer you'll have to save starting on day 100 for that 100MM upgrade assuming you've spent 100MM over the 100 days (and banked all new upgraded income over the 100 days).

And what if instead of banking all of the upgraded income, that was reinvested as well? You will perpetually have a climbing income and perpetually have zero in the bank.

I've toyed with the idea of adding the amount of days of saving somehow to the ROI, but for the most part it's a small rounding error. so I haven't added anything.

One thing I do add, is missed collections during the upgrade time. So I calculate how many collections I will forego to do an upgrade and add that to the upgrade cost.

[BOS]

Whoa, hold on. You're using ROI wrong. The way it's used here for CC is basically a calculation of when you break even (that gripe is an entirely different topic). So while the Casino may pay for itself earlier that doesn't mean it's a better upgrade.

After you've broken even you can consider everything else profit (unless you're looking into investment cost, time-value of money then it's slightly more complicated). So while you've assumed breaking even quicker is good (it is) you've neglected the Net Present Value. If you're playing for 140 days...yes, the Casino is the better upgrade because you'll have made more profit when you quit. But if you expand that window, and sorry for not doing the math (on a train), you'll find the extra $/hr quickly makes the NC a better upgrade and more profitable one.

This is the way I think about it. I will be taking my NC's to level 10 each, while doing smaller upgrades in between. Everything else pales in comparison to the NC

[murf]

This is the way I think about it. I will be taking my NC's to level 10 each, while doing smaller upgrades in between. Everything else pales in comparison to the NC

As a standalone yes, the NC is the best investment...but instead of upgrading NC from L9 to L10. I can upgrade about 5-10 other buildings, Casinos, Palms, GC, RC, OB, multiple times for the same amount of money and increase my $$/hr more.

I'm not sure why I can't explain myself better.

Nightclub to L10 bosts $4,041mm and $$/hr of $642,000/hr for an ROI of 262 days (assuming you collect all 4 collections...if you average 3 the numbers are 481,500/hr and 350 days

I can upgrade both my Palm's instead from L1-L6 for $1,314mm each. I get an increase in $$/hr $332,000 and a chain ROI of 165 days.

So choices

1) Upgrade NC from L9-L10 Cost 4.041mm income gain $642,000 (unrealistic all 4 collections)
2) Upgrade both Palms from L1-L6 Cost 2.628mm income gain $664,000

Why wouldn't I upgrade the Palms first???????

[montecore]

As a standalone yes, the NC is the best investment...but instead of upgrading NC from L9 to L10. I can upgrade about 5-10 other buildings, Casinos, Palms, GC, RC, OB, multiple times for the same amount of money and increase my $$/hr more.

I'm not sure why I can't explain myself better.

Nightclub to L10 bosts $4,041mm and $$/hr of $642,000/hr for an ROI of 262 days (assuming you collect all 4 collections...if you average 3 the numbers are 481,500/hr and 350 days

I can upgrade both my Palm's instead from L1-L6 for $1,314mm each. I get an increase in $$/hr $332,000 and a chain ROI of 165 days.

So choices

1) Upgrade NC from L9-L10 Cost 4.041mm income gain $642,000 (unrealistic all 4 collections)
2) Upgrade both Palms from L1-L6 Cost 2.628mm income gain $664,000

Why wouldn't I upgrade the Palms first???????

Tying back into what I was saying earlier, I think it makes a lot of sense to do the Palms first. I think part of it is the mentality some of us have had since we first blew our weekly allowance/first paycheck versus the first time we saved for something. Delaying gratification is frustrating but very rarely does one regret it (in the game or real life) whereas it's easy to regret blowing each paycheck on small tchochkes along the way and to think of what you could have saved up for instead.

Some bonehead math to try to further explain my premise and hopefully someone can clarify if this has been explored previously:

I make 1 MM per day. The NC upgrade I want is 100 MM. I can save up for 100 days and get it.

But if I can make various 1 MM - 15 MM upgrades along the way, and let's say I can double my income between day 1 and day 50, I am now making 2 MM per day and that 100 MM upgrade will still be possible on day 100, even if my bank balance on day 50 is zero, because at 2 MM it will only take 50 days to save up.

We need a model that takes the opportunity cost into account, a model that takes the "big goal" and compares it to all the smaller goals along the way, and can tell you which path makes the most sense. I think White Frog's Goal Calculator either attempts to do this or partially does this, but the fact that the goals change based on how much you have saved makes me question if it's really what I'm looking for.

You could save up for a nightclub using nothing but basketball courts, but I think we all agree it makes more sense to build a bunch of buildings and do many upgrades along the way. That said, it doesn't make sense to wait until every single building you have is level 10 to start saving for the NC.

What model can weigh the opportunity cost?

[murf]

Tying back into what I was saying earlier, I think it makes a lot of sense to do the Palms first. I think part of it is the mentality some of us have had since we first blew our weekly allowance/first paycheck versus the first time we saved for something. Delaying gratification is frustrating but very rarely does one regret it (in the game or real life) whereas it's easy to regret blowing each paycheck on small tchochkes along the way and to think of what you could have saved up for instead.

Some bonehead math to try to further explain my premise and hopefully someone can clarify if this has been explored previously:

I make 1 MM per day. The NC upgrade I want is 100 MM. I can save up for 100 days and get it.

But if I can make various 1 MM - 15 MM upgrades along the way, and let's say I can double my income between day 1 and day 50, I am now making 2 MM per day and that 100 MM upgrade will still be possible on day 100, even if my bank balance on day 50 is zero, because at 2 MM it will only take 50 days to save up.

We need a model that takes the opportunity cost into account, a model that takes the "big goal" and compares it to all the smaller goals along the way, and can tell you which path makes the most sense. I think White Frog's Goal Calculator either attempts to do this or partially does this, but the fact that the goals change based on how much you have saved makes me question if it's really what I'm looking for.

You could save up for a nightclub using nothing but basketball courts, but I think we all agree it makes more sense to build a bunch of buildings and do many upgrades along the way. That said, it doesn't make sense to wait until every single building you have is level 10 to start saving for the NC.

What model can weigh the opportunity cost?

My argument would be only to do upgrades that give you a better ROI then NC L2....those are hard to find because NC L2 (Type A - 3x's L1) is one of best upgrade in the game. I'm sure the only ones you will find with better ROI would be cheap upgrades. Yes, this doesn't take opportunity cost into account. But my thinking is with this one is the flip side of my other arguments...it's worth saving for the expensive, high yielding investments, instead of making smaller, lower yielding investments, as you can afford them. The smaller ones are better in the short term, but the larger, higher yielding one will be better in the long term.... This is the FLIP SIDE of my arguments against the higher level NC upgrades where the NC is the lower yielding asset.

[Euchred]

Excuse my confusion but my ROI for the level 10 NC upgrade is 121.579 days. Granted that's with my bonuses factored in. Am I living in a fantasy world right now? (using white frog's all in one sheet)

[murf]

The spreadsheet shows output from 10.587mm to 14.437mm. That's 641,667/hr or 15.4mm/day. Upgrade cost cost $4,041mm. 4,041 / 15.4 = 262.

[Euchred]

Well I collect 57,750,000$ a day when it's level 10. in the sheet that's divided by the total cost to this point which for me is just over 7 billion.

So the calculation is 7,021,163,907 divided by 57,750,000 = 121.579

So that's total upgrade $ divided by how much I collect per day. Is this wrong because I don't think it would be in the sheet if it was.

[murf]

Well I collect 57,750,000$ a day when it's level 10. in the sheet that's divided by the total cost to this point which for me is just over 7 billion.

So the calculation is 7,021,163,907 divided by 57,750,000 = 121.579

So that's total upgrade $ divided by how much I collect per day. Is this wrong because I don't think it would be in the sheet if it was.

I think that's chain ROI, so the sum of the past (or part of the past, depending what level you are up to). When making a decision about the future, that shouldn't impact your decision as to what the best upgrade is to do next. I only look at the next individual upgrade for each building and evaluate each of that, not what happened before or what's going to happen in the following upgrades.

There is an argument for looking at following upgrades at early and mid levels. But I think at my point, it's not going to show much benefit.

[mxz]

What model can weigh the opportunity cost?

You could do IRR and take into account cost of capital or do an MIRR on various levels of development (for instance, a building's 3rd upgrade may make a level 2 more attractive than a 4-6 for another. None of these are in the spreadsheets I believe but they're not difficult...just more tedious because you have to start factoring in time. They are native Excel functions, though.

[Euchred]

Well regardless it doesn't change my strategy, I'm following MUI. But to be honest I don't even really think about it too much. I do savings upgrades following ROI on a custom list of all the buildings I like. The whole time my final goal is to save enough so I can upgrade the nightclub until it's level 10.

[BOS]

As a standalone yes, the NC is the best investment...but instead of upgrading NC from L9 to L10. I can upgrade about 5-10 other buildings, Casinos, Palms, GC, RC, OB, multiple times for the same amount of money and increase my $$/hr more.

I'm not sure why I can't explain myself better.

Nightclub to L10 bosts $4,041mm and $$/hr of $642,000/hr for an ROI of 262 days (assuming you collect all 4 collections...if you average 3 the numbers are 481,500/hr and 350 days

I can upgrade both my Palm's instead from L1-L6 for $1,314mm each. I get an increase in $$/hr $332,000 and a chain ROI of 165 days.

So choices

1) Upgrade NC from L9-L10 Cost 4.041mm income gain $642,000 (unrealistic all 4 collections)
2) Upgrade both Palms from L1-L6 Cost 2.628mm income gain $664,000

Why wouldn't I upgrade the Palms first???????

No need to explain yourself better, I'm cool with the fact that my IPH will be higher than yours until I quit. Just relax and play your own schedule. Nothing is "right" in this scenario, it all comes down to individual preference.

[ShawnBB]

No need to explain yourself better, I'm cool with the fact that my IPH will be higher than yours until I quit. Just relax and play your own schedule. Nothing is "right" in this scenario, it all comes down to individual preference.

I feel pity that people don't give a crap to murf's thoughts. Being more active and buying gold buildings could give you the IpH lead,but it doesn't mean that you are better at game Econ.


For type A buildings,lets assume the base IpH is X(32000 as NC), base cost is Y(40m),
their iph growth pattern is 2X, 3X,4X, 5X ,7X, 9X, 11X, 13X, 20X from lvl1 to 10
While cost growth pattern is 1.7Y, 2.8Y, 4.6Y, 7.7Y, 12.9Y, 21.4Y, 35.7Y, 59.5Y, 99.2Y.
so initially it is 8000iph+/10m,but at lvl10 that's only 1600iph+/10m. ROI is roughly 5 times longer.
this is an alternative way to explain ROI in case ppl don't realize it's importance. You don't get the best bang for your money when ROI goes up.

So from lvl4, 4/4.6 < 1 already(worse than lvl1). At higher level, the bucks are even worse for the IpH it brings.
And that's exactly why a lot of end typeB buildings are considered before going for high lvl NC.

That being said, when you camp at low lvl, go for NC all the way to lvl3,then switch between loft,MT and NC for the best bang of money.
But at high lvl, a lot of strong ass typeBs are definitely better worth your money after lvl 3 NC.

[murf]

I feel pity that people don't give a crap to murf's thoughts. Being more active and buying gold buildings could give you the IpH lead,but it doesn't mean that you are better at game Econ.


For type A buildings,lets assume the base IpH is X(32000 as NC), base cost is Y(40m),
their iph growth pattern is 2X, 3X,4X, 5X ,7X, 9X, 11X, 13X, 20X from lvl1 to 10
While cost growth pattern is 1.7Y, 2.8Y, 4.6Y, 7.7Y, 12.9Y, 21.4Y, 35.7Y, 59.5Y, 99.2Y.
so initially it is 8000iph+/10m,but at lvl10 that's only 1600iph+/10m. ROI is roughly 5 times longer.
this is an alternative way to explain ROI in case ppl don't realize it's importance. You don't get the best bang for your money when ROI goes up.

So from lvl4, 4/4.6 < 1 already(worse than lvl1). At higher level, the bucks are even worse for the IpH it brings.
And that's exactly why a lot of end typeB buildings are considered before going for high lvl NC.

That being said, when you camp at low lvl, go for NC all the way to lvl3,then switch between loft,MT and NC for the best bang of money.
But at high lvl, a lot of strong ass typeBs are definitely better worth your money after lvl 3 NC.

Thanks ShawnBB...just saw that you responded to my ideas...