Banned accounts - Questions from all Top 3-50 teams. Developer needed

[crime cow]

Red, since you are an actual lawyer (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but based on the vacuous posts of the other 'attorney' on this forum I'd say you're the only one), how is this instance different than the airlines inadvertently selling $500 tickets for $10 and having to honor the price? This scenario has happened many times in the past, although I'm making up amounts for this hypothesis. I'm assuming they have to honor the price since they could buy off their customers with a gift card and a little negative press, but I don't know if this has ever been legally tested. Your thoughts?

[namedud]

People are still upset about this? ToS clearly states Gree is allowed to do stuff like this any time they want and you agree to that just by having the game installed on your device. There is a simple fix if you don't like it but it doesn't involve Gree at all.

[lordsagacity]

The problem is that would severely aggravate their biggest spenders, which Gree does quite a bit, but I think the aggravation would be so severe that the game couldn't survive. There are people who spend five figures a month on this game to get far less than 2mm gold, and they do it every month or every other month.

Situations like this do happen from time to time in the physical world - and usually, once the sale has gone through and the product has shipped the buyer simply got a great deal. Taking your legal approach a step further, let's say you own a jewelry store and have a watch that costs 500,000 for sale. But due to a price mistake, you have it listed as for sale at 500 dollars.

I go in and buy it for 500 dollars (sold by an employee who wasn't aware of the actual value of the watch), put it on my wrist, and walk out of the store. What is your recourse, legally?

I believe (not being a lawyer) that if you had seen the error before the transaction went through you could have refused the sale. But once the sale is complete, you have my 500 dollars and I have the watch, what are you going to do? Sue me for making a purchase?

There is something wrong with this example. After you buy the watch, you can resell it or you can use it all day without worrying about the seller might discontinue its function one day. But in CC, you cannot do either of them, as stated in ToS.
So in essence, money players are not buying assets, they are buying the service of playing CC with advantages, which can be modified or cancelled anytime by Gree. If you call it unfair, simply don't pay.

[Red BD]

Hmmmmm... good points some, IMO, which is probably why, as Dippy hinted, there may be no hard and fast rule, and why Gree can probably rely on the TOS.

Equitably the thing that jumps out at me in all the cases (except the airline ticket being sold to unwitting passengers)is there seems to be a strong possibility that the allegedly aggrieved knew or reasonably should have known of the mistake.
In the present situation the mistaken offer was apparently tucked away in a $40 Bundle. The Bundles surrounding it were nothing out of the ordinary. The offer pretty much screamed "stupid mistake."

Should people be allowed to benefit from another's stupid mistake? Maybe if it's Gree's mistake and 10,000 gold at issue, but 2,000,000? That amount would tend to negatively impact the game not for Gree, but for poor schmuck players like me who only look at a $40 bundle when I only have $40 to spend, and whose friends are not going to tip me off to its existence either because I have no friends or because I'm not part of a Top Syndicate where word spread to glom onto the glitch (or whatever).

Crime Cow, you have a good point about the airline tickets, albeit not a proportionate one. I doubt you think equity would be served if a court provided the same remedy to Grandma Crime Cow who skimped to buy even the cheap ticket and ended up in 1st Class and to Dippy's Universal Wholesale Ticket Bazaar.Com which purchased 10,000 for resale.
I wouldn't.
Now, I think the title of this thread has real importance. Whose complaining and why did they really buy a $40 bundle?

[crime cow]

Hmmmmm...there may be no hard and fast rule, and why Gree can probably rely on the TOS.

Equitably the thing that jumps out at me in all the cases (except the airline ticket being sold to unwitting passengers)is there seems to be a strong possibility that the allegedly aggrieved knew or reasonably should have known of the mistake.
In the present situation the mistaken offer was apparently tucked away in a $40 Bundle. The Bundles surrounding it were nothing out of the ordinary. The offer pretty much screamed "stupid mistake."

Should people be allowed to benefit from another's stupid mistake? Maybe if it's Gree's mistake and 10,000 gold at issue, but 2,000,000? That amount would tend to negatively impact the game not for Gree, but for poor schmuck players like me who only look at a $40 bundle when I only have $40 to spend, and whose friends are not going to tip me off to its existence either because I have no friends or because I'm not part of a Top Syndicate where word spread to glom onto the glitch (or whatever).

Crime Cow, you have a good point about the airline tickets, albeit not a proportionate one. I doubt you think equity would be served if a court provided the same remedy to Grandma Crime Cow who skimped to buy even the cheap ticket and ended up in 1st Class and to Dippy's Universal Wholesale Ticket Bazaar.Com which purchased 10,000 for resale.
I wouldn't.
Now, I think the title of this thread has real importance. Whose complaining and why did they really buy a $40 bundle?

It's obvious that Gree will never weigh in on this issue, or they will do so right after they fix the accomplish issue. I don't know that too many people are angry anymore, as those that were angry have probably already taken steps to correct the situation, as namedud alluded to above. Keep in mind that the airline example has happened many times in the past, but I haven't heard any recent examples. This has cost airlines tens of thousands of dollars in some of the extreme examples. Unfortunately, I've never come across any of these pricing errors as I would have pulled the trigger, unlike the gold which I still feel was way overpriced.

It sounds like this is outside your area of expertise, but you mentioned the TOS as Gree's fallback, so please review the section below and provide your thoughts. I went to the same imaginary law school as some others on the forum, so my expertise should not be relied upon, but I think the two highlighted sentences are the focus, with the second one being the key. I would say the first sentence does not apply in this situation as Gree made a modification that only affected a few users and a specific package, which appears to be covered more by the second sentence, in that all sales are final. However, it would be interesting to hear a breakdown of how you view this from a legal standpoint. I could take one of our corporate attorneys out to lunch and I'm sure they could break it down for me, but I really don't want to spend that much time with them as it will bring up a whole host of other topics they want me to address and I don't want to spend any real money to investigate this, so your opinion is appreciated.

7. Virtual Currency and Virtual Goods

The Service may include Virtual Currency and/or Virtual Goods. You have no right, title or interest in or to any such Virtual Goods or Virtual Currency appearing or originating in the Service except for the following: You will have a limited, personal, non-transferable, non-sublicensable, revocable license to use, solely within the Service, Virtual Goods and Virtual Currency that you have earned, purchased or otherwise obtained in a manner authorized by GREE. GREE may manage, regulate, control, modify or eliminate Virtual Currency and/or Virtual Goods at any time, with or without notice. GREE shall have no liability to you or any third party in the event that GREE exercises any such rights.

The transfer of Virtual Currency and Virtual Goods is prohibited except where expressly authorized in the Service. Other than as expressly authorized in the Service, you shall not sell, redeem or otherwise transfer Virtual Currency or Virtual Goods to any person or entity, including but not limited to GREE, another User or any third party.

You understand and agree that all sales of Virtual Currency and Virtual Goods are final and non-refundable, unless GREE (or the applicable third party platform provider) decides in its sole discretion to provide a refund. You agree that in the event that these Terms of Service, your Account, the Service as a whole or the applicable portion of the Service is terminated or discontinued for any reason, you will forfeit all Virtual Currency and Virtual Goods. GREE will have no liability to you in connection with that forfeiture.

[Red BD]

The "problem" I have with all such "agreements", and not just in this field, but insurance, leases, etc, is that no one besides the idiot who wrote them ever reads them when entering into the "agreement." Hence that "I have read..." Thing at the end of the TOS. Doesn't really make for much of a meeting of the minds. Of course, most people, including me, would be so bored by the second paragraph they couldn't focus enough to understand the thing anyway.

But hey, what are ya gonna do? It's one reason lawyers are paid such a ridiculous hourly rate. It's also one of the reasons many lawyers stop practicing and turn to pottery. It's also one of the reasons why, in such contracts of adhesion, courts are supposed to interpret anything vague or ambiguous against the party which came up with it.

It's also why while I started to read the quoted thing, I quickly realized I really don't care and decided to take a nap.
Sorry Crime Cow (-

[TMI]

It's obvious that Gree will never weigh in on this issue, or they will do so right after they fix the accomplish issue. I don't know that too many people are angry anymore, as those that were angry have probably already taken steps to correct the situation, as namedud alluded to above. Keep in mind that the airline example has happened many times in the past, but I haven't heard any recent examples. This has cost airlines tens of thousands of dollars in some of the extreme examples. Unfortunately, I've never come across any of these pricing errors as I would have pulled the trigger, unlike the gold which I still feel was way overpriced.

It sounds like this is outside your area of expertise, but you mentioned the TOS as Gree's fallback, so please review the section below and provide your thoughts. I went to the same imaginary law school as some others on the forum, so my expertise should not be relied upon, but I think the two highlighted sentences are the focus, with the second one being the key. I would say the first sentence does not apply in this situation as Gree made a modification that only affected a few users and a specific package, which appears to be covered more by the second sentence, in that all sales are final. However, it would be interesting to hear a breakdown of how you view this from a legal standpoint. I could take one of our corporate attorneys out to lunch and I'm sure they could break it down for me, but I really don't want to spend that much time with them as it will bring up a whole host of other topics they want me to address and I don't want to spend any real money to investigate this, so your opinion is appreciated.

7. Virtual Currency and Virtual Goods

The Service may include Virtual Currency and/or Virtual Goods. You have no right, title or interest in or to any such Virtual Goods or Virtual Currency appearing or originating in the Service except for the following: You will have a limited, personal, non-transferable, non-sublicensable, revocable license to use, solely within the Service, Virtual Goods and Virtual Currency that you have earned, purchased or otherwise obtained in a manner authorized by GREE. GREE may manage, regulate, control, modify or eliminate Virtual Currency and/or Virtual Goods at any time, with or without notice. GREE shall have no liability to you or any third party in the event that GREE exercises any such rights.

The transfer of Virtual Currency and Virtual Goods is prohibited except where expressly authorized in the Service. Other than as expressly authorized in the Service, you shall not sell, redeem or otherwise transfer Virtual Currency or Virtual Goods to any person or entity, including but not limited to GREE, another User or any third party.

You understand and agree that all sales of Virtual Currency and Virtual Goods are final and non-refundable, unless GREE (or the applicable third party platform provider) decides in its sole discretion to provide a refund. You agree that in the event that these Terms of Service, your Account, the Service as a whole or the applicable portion of the Service is terminated or discontinued for any reason, you will forfeit all Virtual Currency and Virtual Goods. GREE will have no liability to you in connection with that forfeiture.

Seems like an open and shut case based on your bolded quotes.

You understand and agree that all sales of Virtual Currency and Virtual Goods are final and non-refundable, unless GREE (or the applicable third party platform provider) decides in its sole discretion to provide a refund.

So in other words, you can't get your money back. That transaction of buying the bundle is final.
You pay the money, they gave you the gold.


GREE may manage, regulate, control, modify or eliminate Virtual Currency and/or Virtual Goods at any time, with or without notice.

Now that the transaction is finished, that is, they have the money, and you have the 2 million gold, GREE can eliminate the virtual currency and/or virtual goods.
And so now GREE removes the 2 million gold.

Seems open and shut. Am I missing something?

[namedud]

Seems like an open and shut case based on your bolded quotes.

You understand and agree that all sales of Virtual Currency and Virtual Goods are final and non-refundable, unless GREE (or the applicable third party platform provider) decides in its sole discretion to provide a refund.

So in other words, you can't get your money back. That transaction of buying the bundle is final.
You pay the money, they gave you the gold.


GREE may manage, regulate, control, modify or eliminate Virtual Currency and/or Virtual Goods at any time, with or without notice.

Now that the transaction is finished, that is, they have the money, and you have the 2 million gold, GREE can eliminate the virtual currency and/or virtual goods.
And so now GREE removes the 2 million gold.

Seems open and shut. Am I missing something?

Exactly. `

[crime cow]

Red is obviously very skilled at what he does...

Buti agree with both of you that this is open and shut. For anyone that's ever dealt with contract disputes Gree doesn't really have a leg to stand on.

[Red BD]

As I said, in cases of ambiguity (eg fas between the two highlighted phrases written by Gree), a court is supposed to interpret that against Gree. That is, if all sales are final, they are also final for Gree. Now Gree claims the right (vaguely) to just veto everything, but here they are picking and choosing.

But it's not open and shut in light of what I consider to be the big pile of circumstantial evidence of conduct worthy of a laches (eg unclean hands) defense. You aren't supposed to take advantage of someone you reasonably know is making a mistake or you can be said to have unclean hands and get booted out on equitable principles.

But if anyone wants to try and sue them, I can refer you to a great lawyer (not me, I quit 10 years ago), but I doubt there's that much interest or $$$$$ in it, so IMHO it's really snooze worthy.

[crime cow]

That was a good explanation and I'd say we're thinking the same. Obviously there isn't a legal action here, even if it's a pretty clear case. The only way a lawyer would make any money on this is to bill by the hour, which means it would cost a plaintiff potentially a couple grand (on the low side) to get restitution, which would be about twenty-five bucks (or whatever the bundle cost).

IMO Gree is on the wrong side of this one legally, but anyone who bought the gold was crazy if they believed they would be able to keep it. The precedent is set and everyone should know what to expect next time it happens. Including a bunch of threads complaining about the enforcement after the fact...

[Bad Fish]

OP, did you get answers to all your questions?

[evj]

IMO Gree is on the wrong side of this one legally, but anyone who bought the gold was crazy if they believed they would be able to keep it.

I bought it to get a nice screenshot and never used any of the gold
My tread was started cuz of the way they handled it.

I look forward to that response from Gree. Let's all hold our breaths and wait for it.

Anyone still alive?



Thanks a lot for all the posts here. I can see there are a lot of eminent brains around in CC. I wish more of them had a job in Gree and could contribute to improve the environment and infrastructure for this game.
Both the game and its customers would deserve this.

[Yeah, whatever!]

Sorry evj but No eminent brains play cc or post on forum.