People who don't have avatars

[BrisingrBoss]

oh about constitution:

Another argument against secession centers on the language of Article I, Section 10, which declares that “No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation….” To proponents of this position, Article I, Section 10 unequivocally shows that the states which formed the Confederate States of America were in clear violation of the Constitution, thus invalidating their government and the individual acts of secession which led to it. Abraham Lincoln indirectly defended this position by declaring the seceding states were in “rebellion” and therefore still members of the Union. The Constitution, then, was still legally enforceable in those states, including Article I, Section 10.

[Dipstik]

If you think citing a supreme court decision is sufficient to answer a question like this, at least try not to cite one from immediately after we just fought a long and bloody war over the issue. Obviously the question of secession was decided by the war. We're talking about what the actual law was BEFORE the war. There's actually nothing in the Constitution that deals with the issue of whether there's a procedure for a state or group of states to peacefully leave the union if necessary. The south tried, Lincoln said "no," and we fought a war over it. Now it's settled. You can't project backwards and say that because the North won the war, there was NEVER an argument in favor of lawful secession.

edit: Chain posting is really bad manners. Try thinking out your entire post before hitting the button. At least do all of your google searches and paste the results to me at one time so I can read them all and respond appropriately.

[Sherod]

Short version, long version, we all know........

[Dipstik]

I'm already looking ahead to the next big question over the relationship between the states and the federal government: what happens when one tries to go bankrupt? Illinois is pretty much in the same position as Greece right now... will the rest of the country be on the hook for a sovereign state's inability to manage its finances? Everyone seems to understand that the ultimate resolution to Greece's situation would be an exit from the Euro so they can devalue their own currency and start digging out of the hole they're in. Will we consider the same thing for Illinois? If not, does the rest of the country have the right to impose conditions or sanctions?

[BrisingrBoss]

just because the supreme court made an interpretation to the law that specifically said the article meant it was illegal to secede, it doesn't mean it was legal before. they never had a need to clarify it. “No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation….” was already in the constitution. Please note interesting word Confederation right there!!! in any case, going back to the point in case, the south rebelled, attacked the home country and were declared rebels by the North, they went to battle and lost, its about time they stop clinging to a failed rebellion that was racially(or not) motivated and Unite with the rest of the Nation!!! the south still refuses to follow the constitution and to respect the federal government. did you know Texas is refusing to issue Birth certificates to children who are sons and daughters of illegal immigrants, in clear violation of the constitution??? Any person born here, doesn't matter if the mother was 9 months pregnant and walked the border ten minutes before, IS a US citizen, according to the constitution.

[Dipstik]

In case this actually requires clarification, secession meant withdrawing from the Constitution. This is what we call an "extra-Constitutional" question. It has no answer in the law and it never can. It was resolved the only way it could be, and next time it comes up again you'll find that the first decision has no precedential value. We're arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin here, except I'm saying there's no answer and you're insisting you've found the right one.

[BrisingrBoss]

Cant we both agree that the Southern states rebelled, started a conflict, and lost? also cant we agree that the main reason they seceded was because they wanted to keep their slaves?( even if they had economic reasons to do so). so going back to the original point. the confederate flag was battle flag used by rebels, who lost, and that flag should not have been allowed to fly in any government buildings to begin with, moreover, it should have been made illegal right after the end of the civil war, as it was a symbol of such rebellion. even assuming it was legal for them to secede, you know when a country invades another and takes over, first thing they do is to fly up their own flag, and put down the conquered country's flag, and since it would be an annexation, it would make it illegal for anyone to fly the old flag...

[Dipstik]

Cant we both agree that the Southern states rebelled, started a conflict, and lost?

- Absolutely

also cant we agree that the main reason they seceded was because they wanted to keep their slaves?

- Nope. Way too simplistic.

the confederate flag was battle flag used by rebels, who lost, and that flag should not have been allowed to fly in any government buildings to begin with

- Says who?

it should have been made illegal right after the end of the civil war

- I disagree.

[BrisingrBoss]

says everyone not on the south, meaning the victors.... and some of the people form the south too... point is, even IF at the time it didn't mean to represent a slavery, the fact that it was taken over by the southern racists in the KKK, and all other neo nazi groups, makes one think that maybe it shouldn't be used anywhere else, pretty much like the swastika was corrupted by nazis, and it is banned in Germany, but amazingly it is not banned here.

[Dipstik]

You're not a big fan of freedom of speech, are you? I get that... I understand a lot of other countries in the world choose not to do it that way, but you understand it's sort of the law around here, right? If the federal government wants to step in and stop south carolina from firing cannons at Ft. Sumter, I'll grant them that might be reasonable under the circumstances, but if it wants to step in and stop south carolina from flying a flag I'm going to cry foul. That's a pretty dangerous bridge you're willing to cross.

[BrisingrBoss]

heck freedom of speech is the reason we are able to have this talk. but the flag still symbolizes rebellion at the very least, and just for that reason it should be banned, beginning from all public buildings. would you allow ISIS flag to fly over your state capitol?? i guess not, because it is a flag from the enemies of the US. that is exactly what the confederate were, enemies of the UNION, until defeated... you are supporting the enemy's flag... a flag from a defeated army, whose greatest general distanced himself from it to the point of not wanting to be seen or buried with the flag or the uniform of the defeated army. that should tell you something right there.
'

[Dipstik]

heck freedom of speech is the reason we are able to have this talk. but the flag still symbolizes rebellion at the very least, and just for that reason it should be banned

I stopped reading here. Try again.

[BrisingrBoss]

my point has been made over and over, and guess what a lot of people agree with me, I would even say the majority of the country do, so i really don't need to keep repeating the same reasons again.

[Dat Guy]

That's a pretty dangerous bridge you're willing to cross.

Yeah what comes next, a dude marrying a burrito?

Dude gets engaged to a Burrito

[Dipstik]

my point has been made over and over, and guess what a lot of people agree with me, I would even say the majority of the country do, so i really don't need to keep repeating the same reasons again.

The majority of the country always agrees whenever controversial ideas are banned. If the majority didn't disagree with it, the subject of banning it wouldn't come up, would it? The First Amendment only exists to protect the things the majority DOESN'T like.

Edit: Going to bed. Hope everyone has enjoyed this peaceful battle against fascism and that we won't need to resort to guns to stop them in the future.