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  1. #1
    Phill - Immortal GM's Avatar
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    New Epic War Tier Prizing

    We have all witnessed the recent increase of imbalance between Raid Wars and Epic Wars in terms of Cost vs. Reward.
    While Raids are generally cheaper (of course you need a specific level of a lineup), their reward Epics have been gradually increasing, while the Epic War Epic prizes have seemingly dropped in Stats compared to the raid ones.

    After numerous suggestions, which included but weren't limited to:
    * Epic War Milestones
    * Balanced Epics
    * Continued Raid War Milestones (not stopping at 13m)


    we finally see a change in GREE's approach as of today!
    We all waited for that one Combination since months. Another Fire/Water Epic War.
    Thinking back about Blazestone, Apocalypse and Harlequin, all by far more expensive than wars of their time and setting the trends into a time-frame dominated by high Top 10 reserves, we will finally see a new Fire/Water Element Epic War Prize!


    But GREE did more than just give us this anticipated, expensive combination,
    No. They revamped the whole Epic War prizing System.
    The question, for the better or for the worse?

    Let's take a look at the following:

    Black Ribbon (1): 2 +Version armors, 80 Fusion Boost armors, 60 Dark Prince’s Keys, 150 Gems
    Gold Ribbon (2): 1 +Version armor, 60 Fusion Boost armors, 40 Dark Prince’s Keys, 120 Gems
    Silver Ribbon (3): 1 +Version armor, 40 Fusion Boost armors, 25 Dark Prince’s Keys, 100 Gems
    Bronze Ribbon(4-10): 2 Epic armors, 20 Fusion Boost armors, 15 Dark Prince’s Keys, 70 Gems
    Ribbon A (11-25): 1 Epic armor, 10 Fusion Boost armors, 10 Dark Prince’s Keys, 30 Gems
    Ribbon B (26-50): 1 Legendary+, 5 Fusion Boost armors, 5 Dark Prince’s Keys, 15 Gems
    Ribbon C (51-100): 1 Legendary+, 3 Fusion Boost armors, 3 Dark Prince’s Keys, 10 Gems
    Ribbon D (101-250): 1 Legendary, 1 Dark Prince’s Key, 12 Enchanted Keys, 400000 Gold
    Ribbon E (251-500): 1 Legendary, 8 Enchanted Keys, 400000 Gold

    *phew, that hope not to mess up Ribbons without cross checking if it's correct. Let's pray

    What can we say to this?
    Well, let's start at the bottom, that's what we are all interested about right?

    I don't recall much about the Bonus-rewards (Keys, Gold) after the T50, but I must say that I think it is positive that free to play players may now receive an increased amount of Dark Prince Keys as well as Enchanted Keys.
    Of course the days of buying those chests with Gems are over, but 15 months ago, before Epic Chests, we used to buy Dark Prince Chests and that's why they were made that 'expensive' when comparing to what you may get out of them.
    Since then, we have had R&A added to it. This is the single most positive aspect of handing them out now - It gives lower level players the chances to get cheap 'bling' to boost their knight's Stats up.
    This applies to all Tiers mentioned, as we can see a gradual increase of Keys and lateron also Fusion Boosters. The only issue, which I am sure will soon be reworked: The difference of T10/25/50/100 Fusion Boosters handed out in Fusion Fighter's Blitz Wars and those new, revamped Epic Wars. Please look into a balance for this.

    Now to the P2P oriented Tiers, which, right now you have likely made much more competitive.
    We see the following small details:
    T10: 2 Epic Armors
    T25: 1 Epic Armor

    Question raised: Same Epic Armor? If not, why give out 2 War epics, but only 1 "T25 Epic" (Such as Ashenfire, All Seeing [futuristic outlook only, don't freak.] and many more)
    Next nice little touch: The Gems starting from T100. It isn't much, but it is something. Only comment: Compare the Amount of Dark Prince Keys (x20 Gems) to Gems, and look at Number 1. Nuff said? Yupp.

    Hooowever, now let's get to the actual interesting bit.
    You have read right.
    Black Ribbon (1): 2 +Version armors, 80 Fusion Boost armors, 60 Dark Prince’s Keys, 150 Gems
    Gold Ribbon (2): 1 +Version armor, 60 Fusion Boost armors, 40 Dark Prince’s Keys, 120 Gems
    Silver Ribbon (3): 1 +Version armor, 40 Fusion Boost armors, 25 Dark Prince’s Keys, 100 Gems
    (yes I just selfquoted)

    Silver Ribbon - One (epic) Plus. Okay. This is very nice, I guess? It was tested in Arena and seems to have inflated Arena a lot.
    The point in doing the same with the already pricey Epic Wars? Yes. Inflate them. You just made Android a total warfield, nice one!
    Personally I am looking forward to it, but come on, really?

    Gold Ribbon - One (epic) Plus. Well. This makes sense, given that #3 gets the (epic)+, too. I guess in general the #2 and #3 Tiers are done well. It will be interesting to see what happens and/or comes from it.
    Personally I feel you will inflate prices extremely for 3 cycles, have us dried out by then and we will somehow get cheaper Epic+ than before - So thank you!

    Black Ribbon - TWO (epic) Plus. Okay. That is a bit too much, don't you think? As part of the alliance currently controlling #1 Epic Wars on Droid and thus benefiting from it, I still need to ask - WHY? When I had read, that the Top 3 Guilds would be rewarded with a Plus (which was a few hours before the actual Tiers were leaked..) I thought, great, this is a perfect and smart introduction into your planned 6-Star-Tier Armor, good job.
    Now, after reviewing and seeing that #1 Receives TWO (epic)+ Armors I must say, how will you implement 6* Armors? Will you give out Two of each to 40 people? That would be pretty terrible and would move away from the initial by-effect of this update, which is to bring the spender:free2Play gap a bit closer together.

    EDIT: What would make sense would be for #1 to get a Top10 Epic+ and a Top25 Epic+. Question is, why? Would they want that, or is it going to just add an unnecessary collectors-worth? Really can't wait for tomorrow's EW announcement to find out.

    There are so many questions floating around right now... Some of which are listed above, but others remain:
    - What happens to Raids, will you implement this identical? Will now only Epic Wars have Plusses for the Top 3 to compensate for the fact they are, let's be blunt, terrible compared to Raid Epics? We all know why you would have possibly done that, don't we? Let's not start the conspiracies, those will make their move-arounds soon enough.

    - Won't this totally inflate prices? How will you react once it curves downwards again, Inflate the stats again? Once the stats are inflated, will you then adopt a similar System for Raids?
    Answers are appreciated.


    Don't get me wrong. I am all for change. But don't you think the way you have implemented this, with literally 32~ Hours of warning, when people spent up to 5000 Gems for Regular Epics during the last weeks, is wrong?
    Isn't this what you made the Beta for?
    I don't understand why this change is done so abrupt and in the way it has been done. Two Epic+, or whatever it will then one day be for Black Medal does seem to Overkill it for anyone else and frankly I believe you will hear a lot of criticism for this move.



    What do others think?
    Is this a typical "yay or nay", or does it need further investigation? Why was it done the way it has been, will it affect raids as well to be at least fair in this aspect for once?

    I would love to hear your opinion on this!
    Please try to remain constructive - I hope we can reach a point where this Thread might be used to tailor and optimize the update that is about to be released, as I feel it is a huge one.

    Phill
    Last edited by Phill - Immortal GM; 03-11-2015 at 01:06 PM.
    Head of Majestic Nation
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  2. #2

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    Lets be realistic here Phil. This DID NOT at all help bridge the gap between the normal players and the players that throw away paychecks for gems (constant t10). Oh WOW a few fusion boosts and dark prince keys/enchanted keys more for the lower ribbons! Compared to the 2 +epics, along with t3 getting + epics, 4-10 gets 2 epics!

    If u think this helped u r sadly mistaken. It only widened the gap, as now the t10 runners will have a huge advantage (much MUCH more than before) over the normal players, and they will spend more on it (which means more blowout wars that demoralize the normal players).

    This "revamp" of rewards is pathetic, as it only benefits the t10. Go figure.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Regretz View Post
    Lets be realistic here Phil. This DID NOT at all help bridge the gap between the normal players and the players that throw away paychecks for gems (constant t10). Oh WOW a few fusion boosts and dark prince keys/enchanted keys more for the lower ribbons! Compared to the 2 +epics, along with t3 getting + epics, 4-10 gets 2 epics!

    If u think this helped u r sadly mistaken. It only widened the gap, as now the t10 runners will have a huge advantage (much MUCH more than before) over the normal players, and they will spend more on it (which means more blowout wars that demoralize the normal players).

    This "revamp" of rewards is pathetic, as it only benefits the t10. Go figure.
    I have to agree that it seems this will only further the gap. I'm happy that they're taking a step in the right direction, but it seems to me that gree overestimate the values of the outdated legendaries being handed out. The vast majority of people that receive these rewards have absolutely no use for these items outside of fusion fodder. I'm not against handing out fusion fodder as a reward, but lets look at it for what it is..HALF of a CHANCE to get something useful. I think what they should do to close this gap is to introduce some sort of guild quartermaster. Each guildmember gains a currency based off of their participation in guild events that could be traded in for mono element legendaries to use for fusions. The quartermaster could also be leveled up by winning wars or killing raid bosses to unlock goodies for the people that don't need fusion gear in the form of cosmetic items like exclusive titles or capes. The only thing is that points should not transfer between guilds to prevent joining a guild with a leveled quartermaster to reap the benefits.

  4. #4
    Phill - Immortal GM's Avatar
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    Good Idea, sadly will never be implemented.

    Anyhow, yesterday night (or day if you're in the US) GREE posted on Facebook that there will only be ONE Epic handed out each Event - Meaning, we are indeed assuming that:
    #1 + 2x T10 Epic+
    4-10 2x T10 Epic Regular.
    11-25 1x T10 Epic Regular.

    Now this is very funny and I wonder what on earth they were thinking when doing this, lol.

    @Regretz: of course the existing gap between a T10 player and someone that saves up videos from Arena etc. will never decrease again. I also feel it shouldn't.
    But at least you may now get T10 Armor (hopefully) cheaper once the stage of inflation is over - Right?
    Or are we thinking 26 (Cause someone needs to be that lucky winner of a Legendary+) teams will score 20-30m like the T10 has previously done?
    Don't think so. At least not every Event.
    Head of Majestic Nation
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  5. #5

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    Once again you completely missed the point of my post Phil... I wasnt saying the gap should get closer and closer, as I kno it wont and idc tbh. (Cant get into the mindset of spending more on virtual armor than my mortgage) What I was saying is that in ur original post u were all excited about how this will benefit everybody. My point is... no it doesnt, it only benefits the t10 players.

    But oh wait, u mentioned we get a few more keys now (3-5)! Well, those DP keys better be spittin out epics now eh? BUT WAIT! The t10 now get 40-60 DP keys! If u look at it from a wholistic pov instead of just wat they did for t10 runs, u would see its completely unbalanced and only benefits the t10.

    And dont say "So buy some gems and do t10 runs". As mentioned above, I cant bring myself to spend $200 every week on virtual armor. I wish I understood wat goes on in peoples heads when they value pixels at such a high price, but hey im more of a realist.

    Cheers, Regretz

  6. #6
    Phill - Immortal GM's Avatar
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    That's absolutely fine and was not intended at the slightest. I didn't miss the point nor did I claim you want the gap closer.
    The initial thought is that a free player received 0, or 1 DP keys and now receives 3-5,

    What a T10 player gets doesn't really matter as these spend up to 200$ a week as you stated. We shouldn't compare those.
    But what we may compare are semi-spenders and free players, which considering the way T25 will likely play out must move a bit closer together for the following reason:

    Before: Semi Spender goes T25 as often as possible and T10 maybe once every 2 or 3 months.
    Before: Free Player goes T25 every 2 or 3 months
    Now this T25 will give you an epic that isn't outdated when you receive it. So whilst you won't catch up to the big guys, at least you won't lose as much to the smaller ones (If that makes sense?)

    This update is by no means perfect and trust me the spenders are as skeptic as you are right now. In fact they are more against it than you and most consider stopping to spend and/or play.


    Personally, whilst (As said in the original post, Gems vs DP keys for high ranks are very imbalanced) these ranks get too many keys, I couldn't really care less as someone that will not go for T10 every single war for reasons we don't need to argue on here.
    The fact is and will remain that GREE clearly doesn't care and they won't ever.
    Head of Majestic Nation
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  7. #7
    I guess it really comes down to how many people are willing to pay for the top25 spots and how many gems theyre willing to spend. I like the idea of increasing the amount of people that are receiving rewards..but 2 of the same armor? What if you gave the new epic AND the epic from previous week, it will make top guilds not need to run as often and possibly bring down the amount of gems required for a t25 run. I'm currently in a t250 guild in an alliance that regularly does t10-t25, but im not experienced in that arena. I would love to see f2p develop an endgame that could actually become relevent, but I fear there will always be someone willing to pay and keep that gap alive?

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soberranger View Post
    I like the idea of increasing the amount of people that are receiving rewards..but 2 of the same armor? What if you gave the new epic AND the epic from previous week, it will make top guilds not need to run as often and possibly bring down the amount of gems required for a t25 run.
    I guess gree hopes that giving out 2 of the same will lead to that power being carried over into raids (where you kind of need 3 of the same) and boosts spending there...

    edit: lol, Phill quicker, but if it makes multiple people think the same, is it still "conspiracy talk"?..
    Last edited by Marco_; 03-12-2015 at 02:06 AM.
    Android: GM of casual guild Macross (former Majestic member), mostly farming screenshots for the wiki now.
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    Still usable epics: Forgestone+/Ravage/Necro/Druid, Specter/Komodo
    if "boss fight is close" then "insert miss at the last moment" end
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  9. #9
    Phill - Immortal GM's Avatar
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    The gap will always be alive.
    My initial hope was for T10 to receive the T25 + T10 epic and for the T25 in EPIC WARS to be on the level of Raids...
    With their latest Facebook post however, confirming that only One Epic will be handed out..well.

    Many of my subs are T50-250 and I must agree I would love to see them get better stuff for spending the same amount of time and or effort.
    Sadly it's been a P2W game since the start of 2014 and it's been moving more and more into that direction.

    Let's see what tonight's announcement brings.

    In terms of T25, well, I don't think 25 (15 really) guilds can push as big as 10 could before.
    So, you might end up with cheaper war epics - But what worth is it if others get two? Kind of Pathetic.


    The reasoning that I see behind it is for Epic Wars which are more expensive than Raids, which are in return time consuming, to SET UP the base for Raids.

    Say next Element for Raid would be Spirit Fire (It won't), then the guilds ranking 1, 4-10 will have a big advantage over the guilds ranking 2-3 and 11-26: They will have double the output.
    Not one war epic of this sort, but two.
    For someone that won't spend weekly x00$, this makes absolutely no sense, but having seen the past weeks and two attempts to dethrone DK in raids which were stopped after approximately 30 hours instead of pulling through the entire 48 hours, this seems a brilliant move to lure us straight into spending even more time and money into Raids (as they will likely still have the BETTER reward, even if there are 'less' of it (which makes it even better as it will be rare, and Raid Epics are usually 1 Generation ahead of Epic War Epics currently)

    So.. In fact what I see happening:
    The already expensive Epic Wars will set the foundation for Raids, which have a better reward. This means we will spend more, to be able to spend more (with bigger output) during raids.
    Seems so silly to anyone not running permanently T10 or even #1 (now T3), but IF this is the way it goes, it will cause more Raid pushes and whilst EW are more pricey now, the small function of forced Power Attacks (2 Gems per attack, roughly 76 per energy for ~140k points on a level 6) will then be used more than prior, as the scores between #1 and #2 in raids will be closer, given the decrease in quality of armor...

    _conspiracy-talk//off_
    Head of Majestic Nation
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  10. #10
    roookey1's Avatar
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    This move just kinda proves my theory I posted related to the "killing" of the heroic mode
    that the managers of this company are totally focused on the small group of big spenders,
    but have no longer-term perspective or customer-binding strategy at all.

    Just look at Google Play. The game was a superstar 1+ years ago, but now pretty much the only positive
    comments about it are from those 'join my guild' spammers and 'friend' seekers.
    Everyone else feels cheated and squeezed and 'hates' the game for it.
    What does Gree do about it? Piss off the masses (and thus the future of the game) by killing the best idea
    they came up with during the last year, Heroic mode, and give even more (valuable) rewards to the existing
    ~500-1000 gem-throwers who are already dominating & buying every event.
    Last edited by roookey1; 03-12-2015 at 03:20 AM.

  11. #11
    Ant venom's Avatar
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    Honestly I see 4-10 getting two as having an advantage over t3 getting just one epic+ in the new update since if u have the correct armor combination u can beat almost anything(it varies) thus making it feel like going t25 and I belive that t50 should take the place of the former t25 which gets normal epics, if the update hadn't come out yet I would've suggested to give t25 epic+(the epic they normally get) so to give t50 a chance and to get the epic and it would've been this case if this game isn't going at a downhill and also because the top gemmer in raid gets an epic+ and they have spent less than the raid guild going for t25 as a whole making it unfair if u didn't guve those t25 guilds an epic+.

    Cheers;
    Antvenom
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    Average in War: 45k points and willing to do 100k and above if required or necessary
    Average in Raid: 6M points and willing to do 15M and above if required or necessary

  12. #12
    This is a natural progression for Gree to make. They make the most amount of money on any certain event when the demand for a prize tier far exceeds the supply of prizes being given. For example, when 12 guilds are all pushing for T10 or when 27 are all pushing for T25. With this change, they've added another prize tier at T3 which will likely cause additional competition for the + versions (you can argue about if 1 plus is better than 2 non-plus). Also they have increased the perceived value of the T25 reward when compared to what 26th place gets. I see, at least in the short term, all levels... T1, T3, T10, and T25 will be more expensive because the better prized will increase demand.

  13. #13
    Ant venom's Avatar
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    Honestly I also don't seee the point in paying GREE so much for an epic if it will become outdated in about 2 months and then introducing 6 stars will completely deflate everything and t50 (if GREE decides to give them epics) will be the same as going t500 and then GREE will have to reverse a lot of things to make it work, epics only worked in wars in the beginning b/c wars didnt exist when legendaries came out but now a whole different system and how would they implement it so there is a balance, then the f2p gap would be such a wide gap then there would be quitters more than ppl joining the game.

    Cheers;
    Ant venom
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    Average in War: 45k points and willing to do 100k and above if required or necessary
    Average in Raid: 6M points and willing to do 15M and above if required or necessary

  14. #14
    This is by far the stupidest thing Gree has done... They have setup a forum specifically for player feedback and they go and do the complete opposite of everyone's request by shortening heroics, and revamping wars at their own discretion without taking any feedback into account. Its as if they were reading feedback from an entirely different game. Seriously Gree, what the heck is wrong with you?!!!!
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  15. #15
    This new revamped rewards totally sux. They strengthen top 25 rewards. Top 100/50 rewards doesnt seems attractive for me. Whats the use of dp/golden keys if i have over 100 fusion boosts. And do i use them to up those legend+ ? No logic at all. Cant even giv a weak epic for those tier?
    It doesnt matter for me though.

    For me ,im not from top25 alliance or guild, but i spend few hundred monthly on chests. Now im gonna stop spending till those guarenteed chest epic plus is going to improve.
    Since epic you get now will become comman/weak epic few months later.
    Thanks gree.

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