LIARs LIARs LIARs: King of Lying and all other things about new Epic Boss

[SenorSwamp]

So just to understand it.... You spend money for a game to avoid playing it?? This is a strange concept for me... (sorry.. this had to be )

Didn't you see the south park episode on "freemium" gaming? That is the entire business model! Ha!

Put it this way, if you were Gree, would you keep an event going that doesn't make ANY money? Yes, you spend before and build up your character. So does that mean Gree should forgo future earning?

I do not understand Ryo, why this has to be an "either/or" conversation? Why cannot it not be both, like happens with so many other games across countless mobile and stationary platforms? It is completely reasonable for these individuals to have cause with how Gree has made such a material change with the game, since the outcome served to erode years of investment (again time AND money). Their cause, as his been stated countless times, is not that Gree should be a charitable operation; rather, if they see a gap in their business model (let's say that is what the EB event was), they should thoughtfully develop an answer that does more than simply move the exact same problem from one half of the population (the relatively weak) to the other half (the relatively strong).

In fact, many of these people that are now complaining about this have been asking for parity for a long time--just not at the expense of their own investments.

If Gree wants to succeed, it has to be able to do both. The "whales," as they are affectionately known, will abandon ship and head to a game (as a new player, by the way!) where they can both spend money and get stronger--yet not at the expense of the established players. Novel thought, eh Gree?

That is really bad business for them. You're suppose to spend money

I agree with your result, but disagree with premise you used to arrive there. It is bad business for them, but not because they are no longer letting the "whales" get away free. It is bad business for them because it is a myopic, rash decision that simply moves the problem and does not solve it. Yes, it will increase spending in the short term; however, the financial engine that has driven this machine will now breakdown because they will seek a platform that sustains their investment.

Additionally, if you are a new player and you see that you can invest a ton of money here just to lose it later, are you more likely to a) continue to throw time and effort into this game? or b) go to a game where that does not happen--one in which you can both pay (either in time or dollars) to grow and then reap your rewards for a long time? In my estimation, most rational people will choose option B.

[Toddiekska]

Perhaps someone else could take some time and create an analogy representing this situation? Then, more folks would understand why these unadvertised changes make such an immense hit on people with larger wallets. For the record, I spend very little on this game and it's in support of my guild. If I had spent hundreds or thousands of dollars on this game and all of a sudden the rules changed drastically, I would be put-out. Sure the rules have changed for everyone, but where is the reward for stepping forward? It seems more and more like a money-hungry business analyzing numbers and not the community playing the game.

I guess we would also need to define "drastic" too. I've been around since day one of KA, I've seen numerous hoops we've had to jump through with little support or clarification.

[Skyraiders]

hmmm...I will do my best....

its like buying a Ferrari with an engine of a pinto.....I spent tons of money on the car but realize when I take it out for a drive it wont go past 60MPH.....wtf.....this is not what I paid for

its like buying a bag of gems and realizing you only have coal

its like paying to win the lotto...then realizing you got all the numbers right....only for them to say the machine messed up...we gonna have a do over

[SenorSwamp]

Perhaps someone else could take some time and create an analogy representing this situation?

So there you are, working hard. You spend 30 years of your life building a pharmacy from scratch. You went to school. Paid your dues. And, to save money, you actually helped on the construction of your pharmacy building-- Alpaca Pharmaceuticals. You created a great business model (your gree account) and were able to live a relatively comfortable life (your epic bosses).

Then, your city council (gree) decided that the municipality needed to expand its commercial footprint. They realized that as the town grew, it would need additional pharmacies (new accounts). This could be done in all kinds of ways-- tax breaks could be given to new business owners (cheap or free bundles for new players to buy), properties (free catch-up buildings such as silos, rogue gardens, etc.) could be given for free from the city to aspiring pharmacists, or the city could target specific types of speciality pharmacies (events that would not be attractive to old players, but would help new).

Alas, all of those ideas were too hard. Instead, the city simply chose to exercise imminent financial domain (flipping the EB model). Rather than allowing you to enjoy the fruits of your labor and have a productive life, the city, instead, chose to tax you at a rate 8 times higher, while making the taxes for the new person be 20 times lower. This would make their market entry easier and you would struggle (which, seemed unnecessary in the first place, given that there is market share enough for both of you, but we digress...)

You complained! You were outraged! "How could they do thus to me?", you asked! The city, in it's infinite wisdom, heard this and reduced your taxes by .06%, and told you it was committed to you as a long time resident, city leader, and general fan of your hometown --which you helped build.

The new pharmacist was ecstatic about their newly found opportunity and did not understand why you were mad--"NOW I CAN GET THE SAME THING AS YOU--HOORAY! Finally, we are equal. Why don't you get over it! Of course the city had to act to grow the pharmaceutical base!"

Interestingly, you actually agree with most everything they said. The city did need new pharmacists. Incentives did need to be created to attract them. Out of all of the millions of options available to them, however, you simply wonder "why did this have to come at the expense of me... as it now seems that I am mad at the new pharmacist for being able to grow???" Unfortunately, nothing could be farther from the truth. You want the new blood--it takes some of the pressure off of you and contributes to your town growing.

You simply wish your town had thought through this a bit more... as now you may choose to leave the community entirely and go set up shop somewhere else---the only thing at this point that is keeping you here are your loyal customers, fellow businessmen, and friends (fellow guildmates). You stay despite the city council.

[Ratma2001]

2 cents worth...just incase..i used to spend money ..lots and i mean lots ....in the vicinity of $700-1000 per month....when the game was AWESOME.....im level 200 , have been for some time.....i took 4 months off due to various reasons..like real life...work, i came back to over inflated stats, now given that i could hold my own with most as i was towards the top in stats, i couls achieve most events with some assistance from gems, like the Boss i could do most , now the game changes and i am struggling to do Boss 28 ? why due to inflations stats that affected my acct and all the monies i spent were worth didley squat ! Now with the new inflation on the Boss, i am maxed at Boss 20 ...go figure..would i spend more money like before only to see it all change again...NO...never on this game, it changes too quickly and not advised of changes....company policy not to advertise these changes. So i just go as far as i can ..not far now though, so yes i work, yes i play, yes i used to spend, but not worth my additional time or effort, and you can go from Hero to Zero in no time, just take a break even for 2 months and come back and tell me you can still do Boss 50 after being able to do Boss 100 !! ??

[Jomama1]

Well Said SenorSwamp

There is no reason that the biggest spenders needed to see a difficulty increase of 10X in order to make it easier for new folks. This is simply fixed, just add a component of army strength to the attack calculation, say 500 per billion. Everyone wins. There is no need to disenfranchise your biggest spenders.

[Ryosaeba]

Originally, the way EB was setup, the difficulty was based on player level. This made mini's able to finish very easily without gems and pretty much impossible for L180+ (or whatever the cut off was) without massive spendings even with the stat inflation. Until now, I don't think Gree had found the right balance for EB. The time high level players all can kill L100 with 1, 2 free hits was most likely not foreseen. Maybe it was a side effect of trying to help out the weaker players so they may reach 70 or 80 kills and spend gems to get to 100.

My point is, the easy kills for high level players did not last more then 2 or 3 cycles and most likely was just an experiment for Gree. If they had it like that for say, 20 cycles then all of a sudden increase difficulty 10 fold, then yeah, I'd be pissed too.

This goes back to SenorSwamp's analogy. It would apply if EB was this like that since beginning. But it wasn't. I don't know how long you played but before a lot of these changes, RB for L180+ was very very difficult, even if you had god like stats. Each hit would take away pixels from the energy bar. It required massive amounts of spending to finish.

The analogy would only work if you were ALWAYS able to finish EB without spending. Or if it was a gradual increase in your max kills. (i.e. you were able to kill 48 in the beginning, then 52, then 56, then 60, then 64 and so on and so forth all the way to 100). But this isn't the case is it. It was impossible, then a little easier, then too easy, then we have now, mildly difficult.

You see where I'm going here? It wasn't gradually getting easier for you because your stats increased. It was all of a sudden too easy. Call it a failed experiment for Gree. And I do believe at this point, they are still experimenting. We may see it completely changed next cycle and make it impossible for me to get 100 kills but easier for you.

[Ratma2001]

Originally, the way EB was setup, the difficulty was based on player level. This made mini's able to finish very easily without gems and pretty much impossible for L180+ (or whatever the cut off was) without massive spendings even with the stat inflation. Until now, I don't think Gree had found the right balance for EB. The time high level players all can kill L100 with 1, 2 free hits was most likely not foreseen. Maybe it was a side effect of trying to help out the weaker players so they may reach 70 or 80 kills and spend gems to get to 100.

This goes back to SenorSwamp's analogy. It would apply if EB was this like that since beginning. But it wasn't. I don't know how long you played but before a lot of these changes, RB for L180+ was very very difficult, even if you had god like stats. Each hit would take away pixels from the energy bar. It required massive amounts of spending to finish.

The analogy would only work if you were ALWAYS able to finish EB without spending. Or if it was a gradual increase in your max kills. (i.e. you were able to kill 48 in the beginning, then 52, then 56, then 60, then 64 and so on and so forth all the way to 100). But this isn't the case is it. It was impossible, then a little easier, then too easy, then we have now, mildly difficult.

You see where I'm going here? It wasn't gradually getting easier for you because your stats increased. It was all of a sudden too easy. Call it a failed experiment for Gree. And I do believe at this point, they are still experimenting. We may see it completely changed next cycle and make it impossible for me to get 100 kills but easier for you.

Sort of right , but not quite, it was based on your level over level 100 Boss was a lot harder over 150 harder again..not stats... the more you won at lower levels the more stats you gained but Boss didn't change strength till you hit those Levels, than all of a sudden it was different, kinda like a double double then triple triple..if you understand?
stats didn't make any impact except how hard you hit , it was your level that determined the Boss strength, that's why Mini's were introduced you could do Boss 100 easy where as if you were level 150+ same or close to stats, 3 times harder, that's why leveling was such a backwards step...that has all changed now , its just as hard at level 150+ to level 80 .... see the difference ?that in a nut shell is why minis were born and made such an impact , they got BIG stats quick and big acct got the dregs. so opposite to game play, the smaller level you were the easier it was to get the Big stat units, and vise versa, Big levels got diddley squat unless you spent copious amounts of gems.

[SenorSwamp]

Sort of right , but not quite, it was based on your level over level 100 Boss was a lot harder over 150 harder again..not stats... the more you won at lower levels the more stats you gained but Boss didn't change strength till you hit those Levels, than all of a sudden it was different, kinda like a double double then triple triple..if you understand?
stats didn't make any impact except how hard you hit , it was your level that determined the Boss strength, that's why Mini's were introduced you could do Boss 100 easy where as if you were level 150+ same or close to stats, 3 times harder, that's why leveling was such a backwards step...that has all changed now , its just as hard at level 150+ to level 80 .... see the difference ?that in a nut shell is why minis were born and made such an impact , they got BIG stats quick and big acct got the dregs. so opposite to game play, the smaller level you were the easier it was to get the Big stat units, and vise versa, Big levels got diddley squat unless you spent copious amounts of gems.

Ding!

I finished EB under level 50, around 75, and over 100. The tax brackets, using the analogy, were graduated and consistent since the beginning. Later in life, again using the analogy, you would expect for long time business owners to experience prosperity (absent external market forces such as the city council/gree). Although the certainly not perfect, I think the analogy still does a good enough job telling the story.

Ryo-- I must ask you: why do you keep splitting hairs? The entire purpose of the narrative was to demonstrate that gree had other options that would have been far better. Why are you insisting on anchoring on a point that is effectively white noise?

Everyone has said EB could be harder for old timers. Everyone has also said new people need access. We have just said the chosen method of achieving those goals was atrocious. And the analogy was designed to illustrate there were rising tides that could have lifted all boats, rather than sinking one to raise another.

[Jomama1]

Agree

Ryo - do you really think this was the best solution? It seems strange anyone could say that...