Admins - is getting stats from the "player database" cheating or not?

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If a player (let's call him/her player A) uses this third party software to find out when another player (let's call him/her player B) collects their buildings. Player A can now specifically search for player B at specific times and can rob player B with greater chances than if he didn't use the third party software, and thus player A's game experience has been modified.

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This is where we get to the nub.

We are starting to stretch "modified game experience" beyond the strictest interpretation. Clearly the most limited reading of it refers to modifying the mechanics of gameplay (ie, altering code so that jobs drop leaderboard items as loot, etc). This is clearly the main intent of the clause in the TOS. To go beyond this we have to decide whether "modified game experience" means "alteration of future outcomes" in a broader sense. There are two problems with doing this. The first is that it may well (and I believe that it does) fall outside of the intent of the clause - so even if you make a compelling case for it Gree still have no incentive to move forward, because they have TOS to protect their platform, not to fully impose all powers granted by it whenever possible. The second is that it starts making innocuous and common third party software fall within the clause. Does the use of chat apps by a syndicate affect gameplay? Undoubtedly. Does the use of timers affect gameplay? Undoubtedly. Hood planners, boss calculators, LTB calculators, the list goes on.

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Originally Posted by bald zeemer

Does the use of chat apps by a syndicate affect gameplay? Undoubtedly. Does the use of timers affect gameplay? Undoubtedly. Hood planners, boss calculators, LTB calculators, the list goes on.

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Sorry, this is the sort of amoral sophistry that can only be produced by self-interest. Wiresharking game data to snoop on other players isn't like using a stopwatch, a chat program or a spreadsheet. It. Simply. Isn't. Only a person kicking up dust to obfuscate matters would make such a suggestion. What a pity to see such self-serving twaddle from senior players.

A&F, now that you're back from your vacation, please provide a response to the question: is this stuff kosher under game rules? If so, we need to all know it, so we can all use these tools or generate our own. It isn't fair to have different rules for top players, and gray areas (and areas that people can pretend are gray, as here) don't do anyone favors.

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Sorry, this is the sort of amoral sophistry that can only be produced by self-interest. Wiresharking game data to snoop on other players isn't like using a stopwatch, a chat program or a spreadsheet. It. Simply. Isn't.

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We're discussing whether the database constitutes a violation of TOS, not making moral comparisons.

I don't think that the TOS prohibition on modifying gameplay is meant to cover actions that merely have an effect on the results of gameplay. Thus I pointed out that other third party software affects the results of gameplay. At no point did I say that the use of chat apps, etc was in any way a bad thing, or that the use of the database was a good thing.
And for the life of me I can't see what self interest I'm supposedly serving here. I was a player on the receiving end of this. I simply don't care, and am absolutely stunned that others are trying to make this an issue again after it's been dead and buried for ages, when it was barely an issue at the time.

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If so, we need to all know it, so we can all use these tools or generate our own. It isn't fair to have different rules for top players, and gray areas (and areas that people can pretend are gray, as here) don't do anyone favors.

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It's been a long time since anyone actually used it. So you have your "level playing field". I still can't fathom how you think this provides any sort of benefit anyway.

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Originally Posted by bald zeemer

It's been a long time since anyone actually used it. So you have your "level playing field". I still can't fathom how you think this provides any sort of benefit anyway.

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I guess this would depend on your definition of a long time. My info was obtained mid July of this year and posted on my wall by a member of Rogues.
I also have a difficult time believing that it was only used to root out cheaters by them. It seems that it would be a perfect recruitment tool to use. Get attacked by a player with decent stats, obtain his gold usage and make a push to recruit them.
Gree should be encrypting this data but people also do not have the right to mine it either.



And dip pretty sure I will never be mistaken for a lawyer. Kidding.

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Originally Posted by Green Drake

It seems that it would be a perfect recruitment tool to use. Get attacked by a player with decent stats, obtain his gold usage and make a push to recruit them.

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Yes, because it would be impossible to figure out who the big gold users are in the game otherwise. I don't disagree with you that people shouldn't be accessing this sort of data, but you don't make much of a compelling argument, to be perfectly honest.

I don't have to. The fact that this thread is still alive suits my purposes.

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Originally Posted by bald zeemer

We're discussing whether the database constitutes a violation of TOS, not making moral comparisons. I don't think that the TOS prohibition on modifying gameplay is meant to cover actions that merely have an effect on the results of gameplay. Thus I pointed out that other third party software affects the results of gameplay.

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It's not really an improvement on your last post to clarify that in your view it's only the terms of service that make an equivalence between a building spreadsheet and a database snoop. This alone should suffice to say your read of the TOS is absurd. Setting a timer to collect buildings/open boxes isn't even the same sort of thing as accessing game databases to get info on other players that the game interface won't give you, and whose hiddenness indeed is the basis for PVP. Like I said, this is sophistry designed to muddy what is clear to others, and (I suspect) still is to you. But your words speak for themselves.

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Originally Posted by bald zeemer

I still can't fathom how you think this provides any sort of benefit anyway.

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This has already been explained on the very first page. It completely changes the nature of robbing, or of scouting in wars, if some players can rapidly and at no cost find good targets and avoid bad ones. There too I see you showed up to provide a response that engaged only superficially with the substance, while making ostentatious declarations about how this stuff doesn't matter anyway. For something that doesn't "matter", and that seems pretty dodgy on the face of it, you sure spend a lot of time defending it.

The top syndicates already know who the good targets are in all the other syndicates. The database is pointless and doesn't give out any pertinant info.

Argument really isn't what it is used for. It is that it exists.

If no advantage is given why is it still being used?

Did I read right earier that beardy got banned?

Who says it is? That's all supposition by the OP. Matt has stated several times that Rogues - the only syn who are acknowledged users of such data, collected by a now former member for purposes of winkling out cheats - are no longer using the information.

I'm pretty sure everyone has said it isn't still being used.

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Originally Posted by Ragmondino

Did I read right earier that beardy got banned?

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From the forum?

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Originally Posted by sister morphine

Who says it is? That's all supposition by the OP. Matt has stated several times that Rogues - the only syn who are acknowledged users of such data, collected by a now former member for purposes of winkling out cheats - are no longer using the information.

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My info was mined and posted with accurate data in mid July, by beardy then a member of rogues. What the consequences for him....can't say. He is no longer in rogues and I was told that his account was frozen by Matt.
Maybe beardy can post here as I know he has an account and has viewed my profile.

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Originally Posted by sister morphine

From the forum?

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I thought they said from the game.