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Take a second and LOOK UP!! At least read the posts on the page you're reading before asking a question. I could see if it was last asked 10 pages back, well this is still the guide for beginners and should be read through anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by madfighters
I think there should be a separate sub-forum for Android Users.
Another question for you guys. How do you all level your armors, and where do you fight to get the mats? I've seen a lot of talk of snakeskin grinding, but if you're leveling an armor that doesn't have water or earth in the elements, do you still level up armors with snakeskins? Or do you grind for all the silver star armors and upgrade with those according to their elements?
Snakeskin is the cheapest for the most part, even having to lose the 4 EP per skin to level up a non Earth or Water element armor.Quote:
Originally Posted by theeggman85
hey again,
I'm currently on stage 2 of ZP with the big four all roughly level 30. I have 1.6mil saving for the final expansion. At this rate, shouldn't I just start on the bigger 4? whats the point of blowing over 2mil and resources to max those if i am already this high?
I would suggest maxing one of the big 4 first (not all of them together). Then max the next one and the next one, before starting on the bigger 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rended
As for the final expansion, I didn't purchase the final expansion until much later in the game. I was already level 100 with 4 legendary armors maxed to level 70 before I purchased the 2 Million Gold expansion (but I did have several level 3 training grounds, which helped with gold production). The main reason I waited for the 2 million gold expansion is that the game gets boring waiting for gold to accumulate and you can't even upgrade your armors, because it eats into your gold.
I did eventually build the last expansion, but I timed it during a time when I was busy for a while and couldn't farm or "play" the game. I just collected the gold and during that time, I collected 3 Million gold and purchased the last expansion. To make a long story short, I don't think you need the final expansion (it's a luxury more than a necessity) and you can easily manage without it, but to compensate, I would upgrade the existing training fields to level 3 with gems (purchased or through the free offers).
Shoot, I have 10 L3 TF's. I am Lvl 120, and over the last 2 months of playing I damn well could have used an extra 86,000 gold/day with 2 more L3 TFs! Somehow, in the middle of all these dragon armors, I forced myself to do the bare minimum for the last 5 days to save up 2 million gold. I just unlocked the last expansion yesterday, so I still have until tomorrow before it finishes. Then I have another 100,000 gold and 8 hours to build the 2 TF's, then 50,000 to upgrade them to L2 and 70 Gems to L3. All while getting Phyrus reg to 35, SG+ leveled a bit, and crafting nothing but Snakeskins. I'm preparing for the extra gold that will be needed to enhance SG+ from 40 to 70, Phyrus+, and BKal+ all at the same time... not to mention possibly enhancing some other armor needed for the next boss or even Guild Wars!Quote:
Originally Posted by dd_knights
Rended, if you have the ability to make your last expansion now, go for it! Funds are ALWAYS an issue!!!!
Haha, since I plan on being here for the long haul, I'll definitely save up for it. I appreciate both responsesQuote:
Originally Posted by Jello
Hehe, that's exactly what I meant. You made it to level 120, upgraded your armors and played the game just fine without "needing" the last upgrade. The last upgrade is what's causing you fund issues... I think if you just ignored it and waited for some downtime, you would have all the funds necessary to complete the things you need to do. The limiting factor becomes farming time and possibly fusion stones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jello
Anyhow, for what it's worth, my training grounds were eventually leveled up to 3 and I was able to farm and level up 1 Legendary+ to 70 every week without the last expansion. My gold would hover in the range of 2 Million and 500K and it was a pretty stable gold production/spending system. I guess if you want to produce more than 1 Legendary+ per week, then the last expansion would probably help (but only after crippling you for a couple of weeks).
Also, with the last expansion, I added a 4th smith as well, so it was only 1 extra training grounds for me. The 4th smith forced me to farm more (ugh) and I actually find myself farming less now with the 4th smith, because it's just so tedious.
If you factor in the lost "play" time, the gold cost, and the build times, I would say it's only worth it after you've established a good set of armors. The lost "play" time alone will end up costing you time wasted and a major slowdown in armor production, so your ability to complete boss quests and compete in the arena is impeded by building the last expansion. If you wait until your armors are established, then you can eventually get the last expansion and also compete in the quests at the same time.
guys, there is a topic no one covered (as far as I can see)
the hitting points table
I mean when you have for instance 1056 attack 1204 defense and you fight with someone that has attack 876 and defense 771
(I am writing numbers but we could call the X and Y)
what is the damage done?
In the game there are 3 possibilities
1) fail, no damage done and a "?" appears. Non one knows when it happens and why (if it's somewhat related with colors or statistics)
2) normal hit without color bonuses. Normal hit with 1 color bonus, and maybe, if it's different the normal hit with 2 color bonuses
3) special attack without color bonuses. Special hit with 1 color bonus, and maybe, if it's different the special hit with 2 color bonuses
Please note that sometimes even when you don't use the special attack the damage done is the same of special attack, it happens more or less the same number of times you get a "?"
It's not clear if it is related or not with colors, but it seems to be not
As someone said there is "no real random" in a program. There must be a rationale beyond that.
If someone can spot it I would really appreciate to know.
A table of the hit damages will be really appreciated, it would be enough to understand the outcome of different attack and defense values and know more or less the strength of minions.
The only one known is the boss, from it we could understand the rationale beyond the hit done and received
anyone interested in this search?
Good suggestion...however random is random...just like dpc and fuzing results...Quote:
Originally Posted by XBDMRRFPN
Single element advantage does 50% more damage, dual element advantage does 100% more damage. An SA, or a critical hit - which is essentially a SA you get out of luck, does 50% more on top of that damage.
The problem with making a damage calculator for arena, is that it's hard to guess your opponent's stats. It would only be plausible if your opponents are all level 100s with only maxed armors. Also, since you don't actually know the armor setup of your opponents until up fight them, having a damage calculator doesn't really help much. All you have to do is take note of their setup and build your team against them accordingly - no damage calculator required.
I speak about a map of minions statsQuote:
Originally Posted by deathexe
I see that the damage is not random. If I have the water character wearing my ragebone I will make the same damage to minions like if it was the fire character.
About the enemy in arena you can see the main one, the other 2 will be easier anyway
the hits done and received with the minions are constant with same character and same armor at the same levelQuote:
Originally Posted by Papa3G
Of course the damage isn't random. It wouldn't make sense if it was. It would be a lot of work to find out how much damage you'll be doing and taking from a normal monster though, and not very practical. You'll have to take into account not only your stats and health at each level, but also the stats and health of each minion in every stage and difficulty.Quote:
Originally Posted by XBDMRRFPN
Also, I've already answered your doubts about what different attacks do and mean in my previous post
Thank you, I appreciated the answer about the bonuses, but I think it's not impossible to create a table of damagesQuote:
Originally Posted by deathexe
I mean, like in the examples I made, if there is a difference of 150 points between attack and defense the damage done is X if the difference is 200 points the damage done is Y and so on.
I am quite sure that there is a rule and is quite simple.
It can be discovered either with friendly matches either with the bosses (they declare their points)
Once find the rule (that I believe that goes in intervals) it's easy to get all minions statistics
PS about the sense of random I disagree, not because I like random (I actually like that we can discover the rule), but because playing D&D gives, with roll dices, random outcomes, so the game could have done the same.
Check the Epic Boss Damage thread. This is the best place to start.Quote:
Originally Posted by XBDMRRFPN
Yeah, it's definitely possible, but it just doesn't seem reasonable to do it. As I said, you would have to do it for all monsters on all stages and difficulties. Also, I can't really see the usefulness in doing a monster damage calculator since in most cases all you would have to do is just use the best armors you have with the right combinations and with the help of friends, you would be able to complete most stages (when you're low levelled of course)Quote:
Originally Posted by XBDMRRFPN
But that's just me, since I never really found the news for something like this when I was playing through the maps. It may help others once in awhile I guess. But whoever's gonna do it would have a lot of work on their hands.
if it's a work made by many people is not that huge.Quote:
Originally Posted by deathexe
besides discovering the general rule it's all but impossible and I think it could be very helpful actually...
maybe we could discover that having a very good defense is more effective than having a very good attack
for instance (this seems to me after a certain level that the stronger characters have a stronger defense not a stronger attack)
this will make us choose different kind of armors probably
Minions == the non-boss storyline monsters? Except for in Kingdom of Darkness you should either 1-hit them or 2-hit them with halfway decent armor, so I don't know if many people see the need to figure out the exact attack and defense values of the various minions. (decompiling the game to see if you can find a table with the exact values would probably be less of a PITA than trial and error...)Quote:
Originally Posted by XBDMRRFPN
maybe for you but not for the newcomers...Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco_
besides discovering the rule will help you in defeating the bosses
so discovering the rule it's surely worth to. we tend to calculate the aggregate of attack and defense. What if in case the defense count actually more in this rule?
Resources spent to craft armors with good attack discovering that the one that has a better defense will win easier?
Yes, it is 100% useless for newcomers, since they already suffer from confusion/information overload.Quote:
Originally Posted by XBDMRRFPN
Confronting them with tables of minion damage does no good at all.
"pick these elements for best effect at this location" is simple and good enough.
A good example of how confused a large percentage of (new) players are is all the "what is a good combination to fuse armor 'N'" questions and serious suggestions of source armors that you see on the wiki.
Teaching the basics is more important than mathcrafting.
I suspect that mathcrafting isn't important to the bottom 99% of players and for the top 1% minions don't matter...
If you're not already putting on your best possible armors to fight then knowing the exact damage numbers isn't going to help. A couple of runs through each stage should be enough to tell you what your best options are. You want to minimize damage taken, while taking out each minion with one hit as much as possible. It's pretty simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by XBDMRRFPN
For Fighting the Epic Boss, it's nice to have some idea if when to add extra knights, and BethMo's thread gives you the formulas required to get a close idea of numbers.
maybe you can forecast better than me but to me happened that I hired 2 friends and I defeated the boss without them... I wasted 2 friends slot while I could have know that I was enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musketeer
I mean it looks like some people here doesn't want to make an effort to understand the rule of the attack and defense?
Besides how do you know which is your best armor if you don't know how the fight is calculated?
That's sounds strange to me, very strange
well I disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco_
Your example doesn't make sense because you compare a certain thing (the rule of attack vs defense) with something completely uncertain like the armor fusions
surely the armor fusion rules increased the confusion in newcomers, but not the stats about the armors that helped to discover to not waste time on monks and craft the big4
"you cannot manage what you cannot measure"
without knowing the rule of attack and defense you can't really know which is your best armor
it's like playing risk! without knowing the rule of fighting with the rolled dices (that in case of even make the defense winner). I guess there must be something similar.
how can be underestimated the importance of a rule like seems to me really absurd.
Minions don't matter: they're cannon fodder. It's as simple as that. They're just there to provide shards and stand in your way while getting to the storyline bosses.
Defense/health stats on the storyline bosses might be helpful though, so you know when to special attack and don't accidentally kill them with a random crit. (but then non-killing random crits come in and it gets too complicated for people most of whom probably just play the game for a few minutes now and then spread over the day...)
Keep it simple. Damage tables might be useful to a bot program farming the game, but not for most humans playing a "casual" phone/tablet game.
For ex. the amount of "pretty, but not very effective" armors even in ribbon 1 and bronze in the arena on Android is just silly/painfull to a hardcore follower of this forum/the spreadsheet, but apparently lots of casually competitive people go with pretty things they've fused together or gotten from DPC...
Just pointing out that although your "product" might be good in theory, there's just no interested market for it...
I am afraid you didn't get my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco_
Think about the game: "Risk!"
without knowing the rule of combat how can you play?
You simply can't.
I want to discover that rule and maybe apply to some scenarios.
The game is playable, obviously shown by all the people that play it. It's not advanced or technical as other games with HP bar counters, dexterity stats for hits/misses, crits, etc. It's just a basic game.
Nah, I'd more liken what you want to do as trying to figure out what kind of plastic the Risk play pieces are made of... :P
We've already got epic boss damage formulas which are nice for the geeks and uninteresting for 99% of the player base.
You want to reverse-engineer damage formulas for way less relevant monsters, also with zero guarantee that Gree doesn't tweak/change the values at some point in time. That's just a lot of investment for near zero use.
Our point is we DO know how the fight is calculated. Earth beats Air, Air Beats Water etc. Beats = 50% extra damage. It's very simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by XBDMRRFPN
Say you are running Skeletons [sic] Tomb Valor Stage. The monsters will be water and earth, so you can choose a Spirit armor with safety. If you choose wind to beat water you'll take 50% extra damage from the Earth monsters, so it's usually a good idea not to. Spirit/Earth would be a safe combo armor. Once you're powerful enough you can choose Water/Earth armor for zero extra damage, because you'll be killing in one blow anyway and only taking 1 damage from each minion.
Also, please tell me you have looked at BethMo's thread about beating the epic bosses, which I already told you about. The formulas you need are already there if you really want to calculate att/def for every minion in every stage (btw, they're not always the same lineup, so you'll need to run through every one several times). You can even estimate their hit points with enough runs through if you really want to.
Just one run through any stage anywhere in your best armor will show you if you can beat it without friends. If you didn't, bring a friend along the next time.
Yes, I CAN forecast better than you, because I've already beaten all the stages in the map. If you can't figure out what your best armor is yet, read some more threads on the Forum.
so why when I use the infernal+ with better numbers of the non+ notus, instead of the notus I lose all battle and I win while I use the notus with much worse combined numbers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco_
Bad luck?
Notus has the spirit so is since almost everybody uses fire it should be worse
I have to guess from what you said that the Infernal+ at 34 level brings bad luck while the 19th level non + Notus brings good luck?
is that what are you saying?
What about the fact of having 4 stars and better basic defense helps?
Do you think that is really that useless to investigate?
No maybe it was just a coincidence no?
maybe you did in more time than I did and you play like it like a "hit everything moves game" without making any question or going deeper just spending time and money...Quote:
Originally Posted by Musketeer
maybe...
I will check that thread for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco_
But you didn't get my point, I don't care about less relevant monsters, I want the formula of attack vs defense.
What's the point? You don't know the attack/defense/level of monsters unless you get the data from files or the attack/defense of players' armors unless you know its level. You can 'estimate', but you're already estimating when you fight the person by looking at element vs element and type of armor. For PvE purposes, you don't know the orders of monsters they will put out, nor do you know when they will crit.
People understand what you're saying. We're not all mindless gamers who started playing game on mobile.
Why did you mention "minions" then?Quote:
Originally Posted by XBDMRRFPN
- get a whole bunch of level 100+ people on your friend list, so you have fixed values for inate health and attack/defense (see Stats by Level tab of the spreadsheet)
- start friend battling using various armors
edit: assuming maxed out armors on your friends, otherwise that throws things off again...
But I guess it's just the same formulas as for the epic boss, since health is health, attack is attack and defense is defense...
maybe you didn't notice but you can see the stats of the main character you fight in the arena and in friends battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco_
This is the point.
Finding the formula will clarify what is the best armor
I am thinking that armor with better defense (with the same combined att+def value) are better than the one that are good in attack
I cannot proof it unless I find the formula of attack vs defense
PS minions was an example. It will be helpful also with them and it would clarify how to approach them in my opinion, for the newcomers.
What if in case the formula gives an edge to who has a better defense?Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloStar
As a generic role, like the rolling dices of Risk!
This is the point
in my experience the armors with high defense (like 1800 or more) are so much more effective than the others that have a strong attack even when the combined numbers are the same or even in favor of the attacker
I believe that finding the rationale beyond it can potentially change the way we pick armors in battle
maybe or maybe not
worth to investigate anyway
some of these details are known but not released to the general public in order to maintain an edge. the fundamentals are there but any details you just gotta figure them out.
some people like to know how to walk before ever doing it
most would argue it's just easier to keep walking now that we know how to walk.
if this guy wants to somehow learn to walk better because he understands walking, well then... who are we to get in his way? In the meantime, watch this, I'm gonna walk out of this thread and get something important done
You keep shifting your ground. Initially you were talking about battling minions and bosses in the map stages, are you now talking about PvP in the Arena?Quote:
Originally Posted by XBDMRRFPN
In what situation is Notus doing better than Infernal Lord+ for you? Please be specific. Was it vs Epic Boss, in the Arena, or the Map stages. What opponents are you fighting? Have you accounted for their different elements?
Nobody has said that one armor brings good luck and another brings bad, you are just introducing nonsense into the discussion to confuse the issue.
Four stars is not always better than three stars, it's attack, defence and the elements that matter. Higher defence is better than lower defence, but higher attack is better than worse attack, so it's a trade off. To get high attack & defence you have to develop better armors - specifically beat the Epic Bosses at levl 43, and craft the + version of their armor, then level it to maximum.