[Updated] Official 11+ Movement Thread

He's certainly abrasive, his delivery could use some tact and he seems to have a bone to pick with Majestic, but ultimately he's not incorrect. I've been playing for roughly a year now, and while I've only lurked off and on the forums, it wasn't enough to know any more that Majestic seems to have earned a lot of ire from a certain segment of the pecking order here, if not specifically why.

That being said, they are attempting a good thing. However, unless there is action behind the chanting absolutely nothing will change. What we have here is tantamount to your workers going on strike over unfair conditions, but half of them continue to show up and cross the picket line. Maybe it's a poor example, but whatever.

You all can shout all you want and change the rating to 1, but unless there is uniform, or even majority cease-spending across the upper tier of the players, GREE will have no reason to do anything other than sit back and chuckle.

You won't stop casual and (self-titled) semi-hardcore people from buying the $1-$20, maybe even $50 packs...but if what...Top 10 x 40 members so 400 players stop purchasing $100-$200 packs, and let's be realistic because we know more people spend a lot more than that...there won't be any kind of dent made.

There has to be action behind the demand.

The irony of all of this is that the posting guidelines prevent us from engaging "in religious or political discussion, or [promoting] political or legal actions or boycotts against any entity."

"Any entity" would definitely include GREE, so posting about gem boycotts may very well result in bans.

Boycott...I wonder which definition is used. From merriam-webster.com

"to refuse to buy, use, or participate in (something) as a way of protesting : to stop using the goods or services of (a company, country, etc.) until changes are made"

It's true to an extent, so if they choose to they'll lock 2 posters out of the forums. However, to my knowledge there's only been speculation about the usage of gems, not stopping playing the game. Perhaps it counts, perhaps it doesn't. I'm no lawyer, but do choosing not to buy micro transactions count as a boycott if you still use and support the free product?

A further piece of speculation for those unafraid to discuss:

If actual banning is game wide and not just website, do you really think they'd ban all of their top spenders, legitimate non-hacked spenders, if everyone invited into that Line chat got HERE with their concerns instead of hiding behind an app?

I'm just saying GREE clearly isn't beyond listening. There was a large thread asking for time inbetween wars, and look! Still no war yet, unless I'm just not updated.

So they are seeing the complaints...the real issue here is they aren't communicating to us what they see and intend.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixZee

HI've been playing for roughly a year now, and while I've only lurked off and on the forums, it wasn't enough to know any more that Majestic seems to have earned a lot of ire from a certain segment of the pecking order here, if not specifically why..

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Actually I like littlefish the gm of Majestic quite well and I support Maj Mikie the GM of Majestic Alliance in these efforts. Ive talked to him and think his idea to call gree and see if he can get thru to someone is a good idea before embracing negative ways to get attention. I dont support Maj paladine who also posts here, so maybe thats why some get the impression Majestic isnt well liked or respected. I have quite a few Majestic friends on pm.

DK Fire

Id love to see top 100 guilds use free energy only. From what I hear a line chat has already been started gms of all top 99 guilds talk it out.

Well the way I see it is no one should be attacking someone who is willing to ask for change. At least some people are stepping up to the plate and putting ideas out there. It's not whining about it. It's asking them to change a few simple things to make the game better, more fun, and more profitable

Ah...

Looks like you guys are having so much fun.

Please continue to debate the fun not spending money and demanding more prizes while others debate that its a losing battle because everyone else who does continue to spend will make up for it. I've always been one to doubt that... if people were going to spend big, they would have already. Same with on iOS side and all those who wanted to down the Rainbow. People tried over and over, and failed. If DPA, Rainbow, SNL, War, and a couple others all stepped out, fully, for a war or two, I really doubt the next in line would have those 40 mil point battles for first.

But please, enlighten us all, have your boycott, demand your demands, rate down the game and see what happens. I've seen other games go through this... and they're still alive and kicking after all these so-called boycotts... and yet they still have wars where the have-nots complain that they can't keep up with the Haves.

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Originally Posted by 09cobaltss

Well the way I see it is no one should be attacking someone who is willing to ask for change. At least some people are stepping up to the plate and putting ideas out there. It's not whining about it. It's asking them to change a few simple things to make the game better, more fun, and more profitable

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Asking for change is one thing. Getting a bunch of people to rig the app rating to a 1 can deter people from joining the game and accelerate the demise of the game. What good could possibly come out of stopping people from joining this game? Your efforts will either do absolutely nothing (this is what I'm hoping for) OR will slowly erode the game as less people join.

All I'm saying is that if you really want change, organize yourselves and use your money to make a real statement. Paying Gree hundreds of dollars and then rating their app a 1 star is asinine.

I guess downrating a game will kill it but stopping revenue won't. Great logic there. If you like the way the game is running then just do nothing

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Originally Posted by 09cobaltss

I guess downrating a game will kill it but stopping revenue won't. Great logic there. If you like the way the game is running then just do nothing

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Temporarily cutting revenue will get them to notice and it will hurt them. If it's prolonged, of course it will kill the game. Killing the rating will deter people from joining. Those are people you will never get back.

Try and apply just a moderate level of critical thinking and you'll surprise yourself.

I fully support the 11+ movement and already left my review. I think the demands and tactic are logical and well thought out.

However, I am starting to feel that those of us organized enough to take action are in the serious minority. For every 1 person that votes 1 star, there are at least 10 newbies voting 5. I just don't see the numbers adding up to making a dent in the rating.

What we lack in numbers, we certainly make up for in buying power. I am sure 50% of the games revenue comes from the top 100 guilds.

I think that the only way we can truly get some traction is if we boycott gems for a week. I know its a pipe dream, but I think its a reasonable sacrifice to make a point.

Yes, other guilds will spend more, we won't get an epic, etc...but if it makes the game better, its worth it.

Down-rating a game just makes it so that the game doesn't get the publicity and new users aren't blindly joining a game. They see bad ratings and stay away.

Not spending on wars makes Gree take some notice. Again, I seriously doubt that the guilds in the top 25 area are going to magically come out and super-over-spend if the top 10 was to all boycott one war. I really think it would be a "sweet, we can get an Epic for cheap"... but I could be wrong. Can people put aside their egos and let a war epic slip them by in an attempt to change the game for the better?

Make a true boycott happen and see what happens. That is the only way.

Downrating the game won't do it alone, you're just stopping any new players from trying the game.

I've always been a big supporter of a gem boycott.

100 people giving 1-star reviews illustrates a severe lack of planning and execution.

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Originally Posted by infliction

Temporarily cutting revenue will get them to notice and it will hurt them. If it's prolonged, of course it will kill the game. Killing the rating will deter people from joining. Those are people you will never get back.

Try and apply just a moderate level of critical thinking and you'll surprise yourself.

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And both are valid tactics to put multilateral pressure on a corporation. As far as critical thinking goes I suggest you consider the kinds of jobs that those with 30,000 dollars a war to spend collectively hold in the real world. Applying multiple levels of pressure on
Corporation is our daily bread and butter. As a CFO if I noticed my two most tracked numbers dropping, I'm pretty sure my board would
Demand answers. Personal in game conflicts aside Id like to see this game continue , flourish, and live up to its potential. This movement
Has put together what a large MAJORITY support. That being the case there will be items more widely supported than others

But the official listed items are the demands of the majority. This movement is not a rebellion by teenagers.
But by savvy real world business professionals. With realistic and obtainable goals and objectives that they
Feel are in the best interest of the overall playerbase and future game growth.

Boycotting is just wishful thinking really, it's never gonna happen. Besides I highly doubt enough players doing it will make much, if any, difference to be honest. It has to be EVERYONE, but people have to put their prides aside which they won't, they want to be called the best and have the best.

While a boycott would be nice, it isnt possible. If DK EVER backed down, for any reason, other top 10 guilds would spend more knowing they have a chance for a +. And I highly doubt you can get all top 10 teams to stop their spending.

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Originally Posted by bosskiller

While a boycott would be nice, it isnt possible. If DK EVER backed down, for any reason, other top 10 guilds would spend more knowing they have a chance for a +. And I highly doubt you can get all top 10 teams to stop their spending.

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For what its worth, no a boycott is not being supported as a means. This thread people asking for one, but as noted, there would be no support for one among the top teams. And as you say, if we step down others would take our place. We might even step down for a boost war, ...but not to boycott, because we dont want more boosts, and think we proved our point who is dominant, that it wouldnt hurt...but who knows if DK actually is able to quit killing full out idk.

I agree they need to do something more for top 50 and 100

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Originally Posted by infliction

Temporarily cutting revenue will get them to notice and it will hurt them. If it's prolonged, of course it will kill the game. Killing the rating will deter people from joining. Those are people you will never get back.

Try and apply just a moderate level of critical thinking and you'll surprise yourself.

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I forgot that it's impossible to change a review on the play store. And as I see it the reviews of the game are the truth

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Originally Posted by firefly333

For what its worth, no a boycott is not being supported as a means. This thread people asking for one, but as noted, there would be no support for one among the top teams. And as you say, if we step down others would take our place. We might even step down for a boost war, ...but not to boycott, because we dont want more boosts, and think we proved our point who is dominant, that it wouldnt hurt...but who knows if DK actually is able to quit killing full out idk.

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Yeah. I think we can be pretty confident a boycott will never happen.

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Originally Posted by 09cobaltss

I forgot that it's impossible to change a review on the play store. And as I see it the reviews of the game are the truth

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you can change your rating....

I know you can change your rating. That was my point. Apparently giving a one star review is too terrible but stopping spending is ok.

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Originally Posted by 09cobaltss

I know you can change your rating. That was my point. Apparently giving a one star review is too terrible but stopping spending is ok.

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Down-rating the game just makes it less popular in the public eye. An unpopular game is a game that less people will join. Less new people means it really will die when everyone starts leaving with no one to replace them.

Stopping spending would have an impact for sure, but as multiple people have said, there are too many egos out there to get everyone to agree to stop spending to see if it would change anything.

Let us have a refresher of a topic that was around not too long ago.

Everyone remember the Rainbow Room attempt to take over the top 10? People *****ed and moaned about how they were all a bunch of *******s and only wanted Epic+ for themselves. How many times did people try to knock them down, only to end up paying for an expensive second place Epic? EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Hey, all you people that joined Rainbow in the end, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a part of you that wishes you would have been smarted and joined earlier? You'd have a few more GW+ epics to show for it, right? The intention to get everyone on the same page, to have a show of force in the top 10, to be able to spread epics out for cheap... it was there. The biggest reason it didn't happen: EGO. Too many wanted to be "the ones who toppled RR" or were too proud and wanted to do it with their own guild/alliance. So, to this date, we're still in the same place.

Until everyone puts their egos aside, you aren't changing anything.

"We support the 11+... but we still want our Epic+ and not willing to boycott wars for it because someone else will take our spot, and we don't trust anyone else to actually boycott with us."

Its simply not going to happen.

And that's why we aren't boycotting. If you think a few reviews will kill the game then maybe gree will pay attention to it

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Originally Posted by 09cobaltss

And that's why we aren't boycotting. If you think a few reviews will kill the game then maybe gree will pay attention to it

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Won't kill it outright no, but keeps others away from it.

But again: Down-rate the game, but continue to fully fund it. Seems legit. And makes the following quote by Paladineguru all the more comical:

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Originally Posted by PaIadineguru

And both are valid tactics to put multilateral pressure on a corporation. As far as critical thinking goes I suggest you consider the kinds of jobs that those with 30,000 dollars a war to spend collectively hold in the real world. Applying multiple levels of pressure on
Corporation is our daily bread and butter. As a CFO if I noticed my two most tracked numbers dropping, I'm pretty sure my board would
Demand answers. Personal in game conflicts aside Id like to see this game continue , flourish, and live up to its potential. This movement
Has put together what a large MAJORITY support. That being the case there will be items more widely supported than others

But the official listed items are the demands of the majority. This movement is not a rebellion by teenagers.
But by savvy real world business professionals. With realistic and obtainable goals and objectives that they
Feel are in the best interest of the overall playerbase and future game growth.

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Only down-rating is using one of those multilateral pressure points. What other pressure points are you using then? Not a rebellion by teenagers, but by savvy real world business professionals? Yeah. Right. If so, you'd know you HAVE to disrupt the cash flow. We support the 11+, but are STILL too afraid to stop spending. Oh no. What if we actually succeed and they make changes, and then we don't like THOSE changes we all fought for? What then? What if they close down the game? Well, if they close the game, at least you know you already stopped spending.

Everyone talking about a rating will make people not download the game in the first place. That's kind of the point of this movement isn't it? If less people are downloading the game less people to start buying more gems from there and grees profit won't rise as much.

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Originally Posted by 09cobaltss

I know you can change your rating. That was my point. Apparently giving a one star review is too terrible but stopping spending is ok.

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Lol, are you suggesting that changing your review will have no impact? If so, why do it at all?

But let me clear things up for you in very simple terms. Forget the mechanics behind your lame 11+ movement.

The gist of what you're trying to do is prevent users from joining KnD, so that GREE takes notice and applies the changes you're demanding. I'm saying that preventing users from joining KnD (no matter what approach you take) is a bad idea.

I'm also saying that temporarily reducing revenue is a better idea. It disrupts GREE and makes them take notice. They'll likely make up the revenue through future sales, events, and features. Nobody is saying stop spending permanently, but a dip in revenue will force them to act fast.

Hell noooooooo

I agree that whilst changing ratings might not have any influence at all and might not be the best step forward it is the only pressure we can deliver atm. Honestly all of this wouldnt be necessary if gree had people actually reading the forum and conversating with their best customers (which we represent) from time to time.

It saddens me how easy people shut down other peoples ideas but refrain from giving structural input themselves. Its a good thing people actually try to get stuff changed and for a movement that has existed for 2 days and had kind of a rough start id say give it a chance rather then shut it down and laugh instantly.

As for most top10 guilds not spending is not an option we have to find other ways to accomplish these things we want. I for one am happy mikie took the kead on contacting gree and i support him doing that. Please stop bragging about your superduper guild being so cool and having so many epics and gems and still arent complaining to gree. Just shows you dont give a crap about this games longterm survival. Go write a blog about hwo much more gems you spend than majestic and see who cares.

I've kept up with this thread & refrained from response as yet due to me not having much time, I hope to make things a little clearer later this evening.

Firstly, Just to be clear for the sake of Infliction, It's me personally who took a lead with this movement & i was just like anybody else who was invited. I believe it was someone called SullenInvictus who set up the group, but it was losing pace and key stake holders (Many top 10) losing interest due to little action and overblown ideas being discussed which we felt would do more harm to the game we love than good. I agreed to take a lead simply because of my personal experience of working in and dealing with major corporations and my understanding of how to best approach them.

Secondly, Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to comment here.. Healthy debate is always great. Just a shame none of the Dev team have ever shown enough passion about the game as we have to get involved too..

In all honesty, Many of the guys here are asking the same questions as we all asked each other when setting this movement up. What do we want? how far are we willing to go? In all honesty for many of us, we're not willing to go too far. I'll openly admit that and id like to manage this in such a way that ideally nobody does... We shouldn't ever be forced to take agressive action..
PROVIDED WE CHANNEL OUR RESSOVLE WELL ENOUGH TO AND THROUGH THE RIGHT PEOPLE.

Many supported much more aggressive forms of protests when this group was set up before I took over and other top 10 people joined... Ideas being thrown around such as gem boycotts / Spamming tickets /chaining themselves up outside GREE offices holding "READ MY POST GREE" banners.

The simple fact is that we all have a common goal and that's to get improvements made to this game. These hundreds and HUNDREDS of requests have been completely ignored in recent months by GREE.
Did just asking get us anywhere? Posting Admin feedback? the 300 polls?
How about answering the admin poll? did we even get a.. Well this won. So we will try to implement this, thanks for your input! NO.
WE DESERVE AND ARE ALLOWED TO ASK FOR A LITTLE MORE RESPECT AND CONSIDERATION HERE. WE AFTER ALL ARE THE CUSTOMERS.

Changing rating to 1* and supporting this movement is exactly what it says on the tin. SUPPORT. This isn't by any means an aggressive tactic, I made pretty clear from day 1 that Majestic and I know I speak for many of my friends in other top Guilds to say that WE DONT WANT to do to damage the game, we dont want to stop spending... We just want GREE to LISTEN and finally show it's customers a shred of respect for their ongoing business and at least open up some line of communication with us.

Lets be clear, the game when you join and fall in love with it is 5* and a deserved rating of this.
the game we're playing 1 year down the line for most IS a justified 1* rating for us because of many of the issues highlighted by the 11+ movement get you down :( You still have a passion for the game but the lack of passion shown by GREE to make us happier, developing the game we love, improving it for the future is an insult. This DESERVES a 1* rating

We (the long term legacy players) give GREE a huge customer base and financial backbone, the impact to share price etc for happy legacy customers is much more significant than many of you seem to believe. TRUST ME, CUSTOMER LEGACY is worth a HUGE amount of money to any business... REALLY HUGE.

Keeping US happy is in THEIR interest too. 3m posts in these forums with 2 people whining about 1 issue off this list that lasts for 1 week before it's trolled into the ground by some idiot on these boards. This approach doesn't amount to half as much impact as 1 thread with 3000+ LEGACY SPENDERS.

Unfortunately I'm out of time here due to work and barely touched on many of the things I wanted.
As I promised to our supporters. I'll be getting in contact with GREE directly today & will keep you guys updated with how we get on.. Thanks to everyone who has shown support for this & hopefully at very least we will get some intent from GREE about things to come & what we can expect to see short / long term from our goals...


Thanks everyone!

Mikie

As PDL we support 11+

TTB (Thicker Than Blood), TTB Alliance, TTB Alliance 2 support the +11 movement.

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Originally Posted by mikieblue

it was someone called SullenInvictus who set up the group, but it was losing pace and key stake holders (Many top 10) losing interest due to little action

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I don't feel like that happened at all.
I feel like that was manufactured.

I was trying to build a strong base of support, reaching out to as many guilds as I could and, yes, people like you helped get others involved, but most people were sitting there waiting. Until a small minority of members decided that for some reason we had to rush.

But, anyways.

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Originally Posted by busteroaf

Down-rating the game just makes it less popular in the public eye. An unpopular game is a game that less people will join. Less new people means it really will die when everyone starts leaving with no one to replace them.

Stopping spending would have an impact for sure, but as multiple people have said, there are too many egos out there to get everyone to agree to stop spending to see if it would change anything.

Let us have a refresher of a topic that was around not too long ago.

Everyone remember the Rainbow Room attempt to take over the top 10? People *****ed and moaned about how they were all a bunch of *******s and only wanted Epic+ for themselves. How many times did people try to knock them down, only to end up paying for an expensive second place Epic? EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Hey, all you people that joined Rainbow in the end, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a part of you that wishes you would have been smarted and joined earlier? You'd have a few more GW+ epics to show for it, right? The intention to get everyone on the same page, to have a show of force in the top 10, to be able to spread epics out for cheap... it was there. The biggest reason it didn't happen: EGO. Too many wanted to be "the ones who toppled RR" or were too proud and wanted to do it with their own guild/alliance. So, to this date, we're still in the same place.

Until everyone puts their egos aside, you aren't changing anything.

"We support the 11+... but we still want our Epic+ and not willing to boycott wars for it because someone else will take our spot, and we don't trust anyone else to actually boycott with us."

Its simply not going to happen.

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I really love this post. True and true....

I have probably made well overy 400 dollars in purchases in the last month to only find myself with one epic I recieved last night. If it is going to take that much for me to get a second im out in fact I AM NOT PURCHASING GEMS ANYMORE. Until we find ourselves with the chance for better fusing odds, sick of tossing two three stars away for a snakeskin armor a one star. If gree really is about the people that play how about you let them play.

Imagine how much I would spend if I didnt have anything bad to say. I have only been playing for a month.

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Originally Posted by smujica93

Midwar, one of our members had something terrible happen to him that didn't allow him to finish the war. He was a veteran member and gemmer, so we trusted him and know he wasn't lying. With this point requirement system, he wouldn't have gotten the epic, even though he deserved it.

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That's a rare circumstance and he didn't "deserve" it because he didn't meet minimums. You just wanted him to have it. Set your minimum lower, tell him to give his phone to somebody else or miss out on one armor (ridiculous to abandon the entirecircumstance so you can selectively bestow rewards on people you like who can't finish a war midstream when a tragedy happens). For 99% of guilds this is a non-issue. We have a modest 20K minimum and I get excuses every single war. Bottom line - you can use gems to knock out 20K in one hour - at any point in the 3 days. If you will be traveling with no access to internet, than you don't get the reward and you shouldn't care much.

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Originally Posted by smujica93

The irony of all of this is that the posting guidelines prevent us from engaging "in religious or political discussion, or [promoting] political or legal actions or boycotts against any entity."

"Any entity" would definitely include GREE, so posting about gem boycotts may very well result in bans.

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It is not a boycott of GREE to not spend money in K&D on Gems or advocate that others do the same. That said -- you can be banned from a forum for any reason or no reason.

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Originally Posted by The Pale Rider

That's a rare circumstance and he didn't "deserve" it because he didn't meet minimums. You just wanted him to have it. Set your minimum lower, tell him to give his phone to somebody else or miss out on one armor (ridiculous to abandon the entirecircumstance so you can selectively bestow rewards on people you like who can't finish a war midstream when a tragedy happens). For 99% of guilds this is a non-issue. We have a modest 20K minimum and I get excuses every single war. Bottom line - you can use gems to knock out 20K in one hour - at any point in the 3 days. If you will be traveling with no access to internet, than you don't get the reward and you shouldn't care much.

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What was discussed in the room was giving the GM the authority to kick right after the war, before rewards are given out. Now once the person joins a guild they still get the war awards even if they leeched.

In this case if the GM decided the excuses were legit or the person was a long standing member, it would be up to the discretion of the GM to allow them to still get the war prizes.

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Originally Posted by firefly333

What was discussed in the room was giving the GM the authority to kick right after the war, before rewards are given out. Now once the person joins a guild they still get the war awards even if they leeched.

In this case if the GM decided the excuses was legit or the person was a long standing member, it would be up to the discretion of the GM to allow them to still get the war prizes.

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this is already possible, isnt it?