Admins - is getting stats from the "player database" cheating or not?

It seems like discussion of this issue has been going on for days now. The amount of info obtained on players (stats - even skill points - and gold budget being most striking) by database snooping seems to be very large, and confers a huge advantage upon teams/players using these techniques:
- in regular PVP, to most efficiently find targets based on stats and income
- to replace scouting during syndicate events, or even decide in advance which battles to contest and which to wait out.
- to estimate gold needed to reach a rank by snooping into your key opponents' data.
- in picking high-scoring battles or targets for PVP tournaments

It seems by now that practically all top 25 (and probably many down to top 100 or 200) teams are using such methods now, and there's even a frickin website. I guess as someone in a team that's found it a bigger and bigger challenge to stay in place, learning that such methods are ubiquitous explains some things.

But more importantly, a surprisingly large number of people are claiming these methods aren't cheating at all. And now that it's been discussed on the site, I'm betting a fair number of teams learning about the methods - or just how widespread they are - will want to switch to them too. This is why it's very important for admins to state the official view on such methods, and whether they are allowed by the terms of service.
- If yes, then make it plain. Then everyone will do it, and no-one will get any competitive advantage out of it. It would be a loss to everyone's enjoyment since it takes out a lot of strategy, but at least it can be a fair loss to everyone.
- If no (as I suspect) then please a) say so and b) do something about it. I am sure you know you need to stop storing and transmitting all info in the clear like this. At least use some obfuscatory methods if you can't encrypt this stuff.

But please address this; the time for ignoring the issue is long past. It's being discussed in your own forums, and everyone knows it's possible.

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in regular PVP, to most efficiently find targets based on stats and income

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This would be of limited to no use whatsoever. I pulled sub-400 off a 3m defense player, ranking is far more important, and already publicly viewable.

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Originally Posted by bald zeemer

This would be of limited to no use whatsoever. I pulled sub-400 off a 3m defense player, ranking is far more important, and already publicly viewable.

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Noted. But your missing the main issue here. Lets not pick out the little stuff and talk about it lets talk about being able to pull data using a program from other peoples "supposed to be private phones". I see no way anyone in their right mind can say this is legit. If that's the case blow up all the fixes and let this place be a free for all. That's what is basically coming to now.

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Originally Posted by bald zeemer

This would be of limited to no use whatsoever. I pulled sub-400 off a 3m defense player, ranking is far more important, and already publicly viewable.

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ISTM you're evading the issues raised.

I also don't know what PVP is like for you guys, but for regular players it involves going into hood after hood to find a target. For my level, only one in a hundred players is worth robbing for cash, and even for tournaments only a few give decent coin. When you find a really good target you keep refreshing to find them, because good targets are so rare.

This kind of technique sounds like it would let you open your rivals screen, have the tool immediately tell you who - if anyone - meets some standard, and then keep refreshing till you get good targets. Am I wrong? And would you seriously say it doesn't matter?

I think this is far less common than you think. I know Mxz was one of the first and best at understanding how to sniff data, but I've never seen htc use it for any strategic advantage. I don't think it's ever come up before. This database you're talking about was created and used by one group.

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Originally Posted by zwiswoo

It seems by now that practically all top 25 (and probably many down to top 100 or 200) teams are using such methods now, and there's even a frickin website. I guess as someone in a team that's found it a bigger and bigger challenge to stay in place, learning that such methods are ubiquitous explains some things.

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Where are you getting the idea that anyone other than 1-2 teams has access to such a database/techniques? I'm in a top 25, why didn't I get the memo on how to use it? I can see it being useful at the Top 3 level (e.g. if you see the team above you currently has more gold in their accounts than you are comfortable spending then it's not a good idea to push them), but I really don't see how it would be useful to me on a top 25 team, let alone "top 100 or 200."

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Originally Posted by bald zeemer

This would be of limited to no use whatsoever. I pulled sub-400 off a 3m defense player, ranking is far more important, and already publicly viewable.

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Sounds like he uses it. I rarerly read or post in general forum due to adults acting like teenagers but this is a big deal. We need an answer. Thanks zwiswoo for not letting this go unanswered.

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Originally Posted by BigMoney

Where are you getting the idea that anyone other than 1-2 teams has access to such a database/techniques? I'm in a top 25, why didn't I get the memo on how to use it? I can see it being useful at the Top 3 level (e.g. if you see the team above you currently has more gold in their accounts than you are comfortable spending then it's not a good idea to push them), but I really don't see how it would be useful to me on a top 25 team, let alone "top 100 or 200."

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Here is the email that Matt thomas the leader of rogues sent to e yesterday in regards to this. Now I am sure he shared this with the other top 25 teams for the purpose of covering his bum. It would be extremely difficult for gree to ban all members of the top 25 syndicates vs only rogues. Regardless here is his email.

"With that said, It doesn't require hacking into Gree's information - you just pull data off your phone. You can't use it to your advantage because it doesn't tell you enough info. You can't tell collection times. You couldn't possibly use it to help yourself in war. It was a tool a member made only to find cheaters and access was given to every leader in a top 25 room I created for banning cheaters and hackers. We don't use it anymore though."

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Originally Posted by Green Drake

Here is the email that Matt thomas the leader of rogues sent to e yesterday in regards to this. Now I am sure he shared this with the other top 25 teams for the purpose of covering his bum. It would be extremely difficult for gree to ban all members of the top 25 syndicates vs only rogues. Regardless here is his email.

"With that said, It doesn't require hacking into Gree's information - you just pull data off your phone. You can't use it to your advantage because it doesn't tell you enough info. You can't tell collection times. You couldn't possibly use it to help yourself in war. It was a tool a member made only to find cheaters and access was given to every leader in a top 25 room I created for banning cheaters and hackers. We don't use it anymore though."

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So your proof that top 25 teams have access to this database is that MT sent you an email vaguely describing the database?

For the record, when the database was in use I was in FC. I was one of the people monte contacted offering to show me the info that had been collected. I declined, because frankly I didn't, and don't, care.

Lifetime gold spend is amazingly easy to estimate. If you have half a shmick then gold on hand is pretty easy to estimate, too - moreso at the higher levels where pretty much all the players know one another's play styles.

That said, I think it was definitely a step too far, and am glad that the idea of using such methods at all (even for "legitimate purposes", such as the top-10 cheat-identifier chat that it was purportedly aimed at assisting) has not maintained favour.

My main concerns are:
a) That Gree sends unencrypted data, purely out of laziness.
b) That significant, undeniable hacking - not just for personal gain but aimed at others to directly detriment them - has gone unpunished in several of the most high profile instances.

The database would struggle to make top 10 on my issues with CC at the moment, or even at the time.

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Originally Posted by bald zeemer

My main concerns are:
a) That Gree sends unencrypted data, purely out of laziness.

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Whether or not it's encrypted is irrelevent, the data in question should never have been sent. It's sloppy lazy coding that has enabled this problem - it's sending extraneous data and letting the client pick out the bits it needs instead of only returning the relevent data.

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b) That significant, undeniable hacking - not just for personal gain but aimed at others to directly detriment them - has gone unpunished in several of the most high profile instances.

The database would struggle to make top 10 on my issues with CC at the moment, or even at the time.

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+1

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Originally Posted by hg789

Whether or not it's encrypted is irrelevent, the data in question should never have been sent. It's sloppy lazy coding that has enabled this problem - it's sending extraneous data and letting the client pick out the bits it needs instead of only returning the relevent data.

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No one's mentioned the data usage on erroneous and duplicated data, yet. That should be another concern. Extra data means, obviously, you use more of your data plan when not on wifi; but also that you're using more battery via the extra and unnecessary processing involved.

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Originally Posted by mxz

No one's mentioned the data usage on erroneous and duplicated data, yet. That should be another concern. Extra data means, obviously, you use more of your data plan when not on wifi; but also that you're using more battery via the extra and unnecessary processing involved.

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It's no wonder these apps balloon to such huge sizes. CC on my phone is 948 MB currently, but it's been well over 1 GB before, until I deleted and reinstalled the app. Get it together Gree :(

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Originally Posted by sister morphine

It's no wonder these apps balloon to such huge sizes. CC on my phone is 948 MB currently, but it's been well over 1 GB before, until I deleted and reinstalled the app. Get it together Gree :(

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You mean you don't want your phone to store every single item in every hood you visit? C'mon, think of the time you're saving.

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Originally Posted by MattThomas08

You mean you don't want your phone to store every single item in every hood you visit? C'mon, think of the time you're saving.

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Lol, I dread to think how big it would be if I were "out & about" as much as some people ;)