Raid Boss Math Lesson

[sxespanky]

just for fun, i ran some numbers.

Lvl 2 - if i gemmed to kill the boss, it would take about 35 attacks (at 20k damage each run) and id net 900,000 points (700k plus 200k bonus)

lvl1 - if i attacked and killed (using 35 attacks) to a level one monster, id kill 11, and hit the 12th 2 times, netting 940,000 points (70k hp *11 + 11 * 10k bonus + 30khp*2)

lvl 1 and not going for the kill, hitting 35 total times (each orc twice) id net 1,050,000 points (35*30k hp). So, is it worth to attack higher levels? for me, absolutely not. can you guys do some math on yourself? or at least tell me what you net at level one, level two, and ill run the math.

please post your damage per level you've tried. the bigger the collection, the more data i can run and test to see if anyone is actually doing better at higher levels.

[Marco_]

guild master using Forge+, Forge, Druid, does about 50K damage on a level 1 raid boss. If I then hit it again, I kill it, but waste 30K damage.
guild sentinel running Araknos+, Specter, Voidborne+ does about 40K, so a low waste/safety net of 10K to kill in 2 hits.
high commander running Araknos+, Voidborne+, Wraithscale+ does about 35-36K, so risky if 2-hit will kill a level 1.

If you are killing the bosses and have an active guild, higher level bosses will result in less of that wasted/excess/unused damage, but also hit hard.

Might try a level 2 using the energy from those 3 accounts later.

[sxespanky]

Might try a level 2 using the energy from those 3 accounts later.

Please do - level one damage is fine and dandy, but the real test is to show if level one is better to attack than higher levels - my theory is to stay at lower levels than go up to higher ones.

[Rookeye]

I've been using:

* Lilith (56/70) ATK 1127, DEF 986
* Unicorn (61/70) ATK 1104, DEF 1100
* Smilodon (56/70) ATK 1019, DEF 1178 (alt w/ Living Flame+ (48/50) ATK 753, DEF 715)

I do roughly 10-11k damage per attack on a Lvl 1 Orc, 7-8k dmg on a Lvl 2, and only 5-6k dmg on a Lvl 3. Guess who wants Epic armor for Christmas? ;)

[B Legit]

I've been using:

* Lilith (56/70) ATK 1127, DEF 986
* Unicorn (61/70) ATK 1104, DEF 1100
* Smilodon (56/70) ATK 1019, DEF 1178 (alt w/ Living Flame+ (48/50) ATK 753, DEF 715)

I do roughly 10-11k damage per attack on a Lvl 1 Orc, 7-8k dmg on a Lvl 2, and only 5-6k dmg on a Lvl 3. Guess who wants Epic armor for Christmas? ;)

Get rid of that smilodon if you can, weak against earth.

[legalious]

My stats with bonus:
Moontide Platemail 67/99- 1724/1583
Aegis of War 70/70 - 1727/1572
Famine Robes 51/70 - 1474/1453
Fighing LVL 2 - 8290, 8005, 7917, 8708

[Rookeye]

Get rid of that smilodon if you can, weak against earth.

Update: maxed Living Flame+ (50/50), ATK 777, DEF 737

This armor is in slot #3 now. :)

[Kangaroeland]

Running 3 druidics gets me 17-18k on lvl 5 as a commander in a maxed guild, 20-22k on lvl 4 and 43k on lvl1

[Marco_]

Armors listed in previous post.

level 2 boss:

GM: 33974, 32925, 34500, [1 energy disappeared]
sent: 28416, 24984, 24365, 27056
HC: 24254, 22706, 25424, [1 energy disappeared]

Even without energy going missing and regen, my 3 accounts wouldn't have been able to take down a level 2 boss with just the 3. I guess on day 1 energy bugging the other way around and energy from that one milestone helped to take down a level 2 boss once...


level 1 boss:

GM: 51245, 49628, 51728
sent: 35902, 35715
HC: 34994, 34114

I don't know if it's intended or pure dumb luck, but level 1 bosses are tuned pretty well to 2-hitting them with very little waste using 3x recent boss+ armor...
edit: the sent, when 2-hitting, ends up with about 5% health on the last knight the second attack.

[sxespanky]

http://i.imgur.com/AAfD2Of.png
@Marco_

so the gm doing so much damage at 50k for attacking a lvl 1 orc is not very usefull for his high damage, unless hes only one hitting them. when you can effectively barely 2 shot a level 1 is the best possible points there. also, if you are so close to 35,000 damage but not hitting it, your better off not wasting the 3rd attack on killing him. this brings up something that i had noticed back in guild wars - that while someone is battling a monster, it doesn't show the effects of your attack until you leave the battle.

my next theory, is say someone who obviously gets better points at just attacking a level one once, is that everyone attack at the exact same time, everyone will get points for that monsters kill, plus the 10k bonus, at only 10k money.

if someone in a guild thats pretty active, buy a level one, and have everyone attack at the same time (within one minute) - the game only checks how much health is left after someone is done attacking, so if 10 people attack it at about the same time, they will over kill it by hundreds of thousands of damage, everyone will still get their attack points, plus they will get the 10k for a kill. it saves on money, not like thats an issue, but it will save on space for summoning new monsters, and everyone will actually gain better points than say a level 2 buy.

[sxespanky]

update - this works pretty well - especially if you say - everyone hit this guy when he is at exactly 55 minutes left - every one gets the points, one kill, tons of guild points.

if you had 40 people attack a level one at the exact same time, and lets just say they all did 35k - youd be looking at 1,400,000 (plus 10 k bonus). theres a million variations i could go with this, only 3 people attack each one, and maximize the bonus on level one, assuming each level hinders about 10k damage - 40 people at 25 k damage on a level 2 = 1,000,000 (plus 200k bonus) - i need more evidence from someone fighting level 3 and up to prove me wrong on why level one isn't the best route to go every single time...

also - that's fine and dandy if your using my methods, but could i get a little Thanks Spanky for making my guild numbers really boom! =] or thanks for screwing up my guild, my sentinel left me for a better guild because i imposed stupid rules some idiot put on the internet. either or, a little recognition for the time i put into a fun roulette game would be nice.

[BW Rhaegar]

Everyone has been doing this since the first few hours, just sayin

[sxespanky]

Everyone has been doing this since the first few hours, just sayin

thats fine, not a single person has commented on it, and with such a little crappy guild i play in, we arnt active enough to find this out on my own. i was just trying to get some input from other people.

[BW Rhaegar]

Join mine, free and casual, 500-400 ribbon!

[Rookeye]

...if someone in a guild thats pretty active, buy a level one, and have everyone attack at the same time (within one minute) - the game only checks how much health is left after someone is done attacking, so if 10 people attack it at about the same time, they will over kill it by hundreds of thousands of damage, everyone will still get their attack points, plus they will get the 10k for a kill. it saves on money, not like thats an issue, but it will save on space for summoning new monsters, and everyone will actually gain better points than say a level 2 buy.

This works great if (a) you're in a Large Guild, and (b) all your players can one- or two-shot it. If they are only doing 10k damage (or less), it'll take 7+ of them to kill 1 Orc and get just that 10k bonus. Unless you're saying somehow this bonus will multiple 7-fold??

[Marco_]

To maximize the orc bonusses, I guess you don't want to have 20 people attack a level 1 orc at the same time, but you pick teams that would together do enough damage to kill with some overflow with 1 hit [1] from each member, but wouldn't kill with 1 less member and have that group attack a level 1 raid boss at exactly the same time and have another such group attack another level 1 raid boss just like that etc.



[1] I guess for low level/low armor people multiple attacks first and just coordinating to do the killing blow together at the point where nobody can yet 1-hit kill works too...

[Alexistheking124]

I ran max druidic reg max earthwardens reg and max hellfire+. I get 60k points on a level 1 ton the first energy then 12k on the second energy.
My average for the 2 energy is 35k.

On a level 2 I get 40k per energy. My average is 40k.

if you hit hard but can not one shot level 1 it is better for you to attack a level 2.

if you can do more than 70k in one energy it is better to attack a level 2.

if you want more guild points and you are capable attack a 3 or higher.

the bonus points per damage point dealt skyrocket on a level 3.

level 1 awards 1 point per 7 damage
level 2 awards 2 points per 7 damage
level 3 awards something like 1.45 per 1 damage.

So if your guild is capable you can score lots of points

[Marco_]

I ran max druidic reg max earthwardens reg and max hellfire+. I get 60k points on a level 1 ton the first energy then 12k on the second energy.
My average for the 2 energy is 35k.

and as mentioned, that's an inefficient way to fight. If 2 people doing 60k hit the full health level 1 at the same time, they average 60k points for their 1 energy and kill the level 1 boss.



the bonus points per damage point dealt skyrocket on a level 3.

level 1 awards 1 point per 7 damage
level 2 awards 2 points per 7 damage
level 3 awards something like 1.45 per 1 damage.

So if your guild is capable you can score lots of points
kill bonus per health: 0.143, 0.286, 1.045, 1.105, 1.5

[Adisty]

Here's my average: Level 1, takes 2 energy for 80,000 points (70,000 + 10,000 kill bonus), for an average of 40k/energy. Level 2, takes 4 energy initially + 5 refills to finish (just me attacking), for a total of 24 energy for 900,000 points, for an average of 37,500/energy. I'll stick with level 1.

[Alexistheking124]

You guys stop before 3. Whats the average for 3 4 and 5

[Alexistheking124]

http://i.imgur.com/AAfD2Of.png
@Marco_

so the gm doing so much damage at 50k for attacking a lvl 1 orc is not very usefull for his high damage, unless hes only one hitting them. when you can effectively barely 2 shot a level 1 is the best possible points there. also, if you are so close to 35,000 damage but not hitting it, your better off not wasting the 3rd attack on killing him. this brings up something that i had noticed back in guild wars - that while someone is battling a monster, it doesn't show the effects of your attack until you leave the battle.

my next theory, is say someone who obviously gets better points at just attacking a level one once, is that everyone attack at the exact same time, everyone will get points for that monsters kill, plus the 10k bonus, at only 10k money.

if someone in a guild thats pretty active, buy a level one, and have everyone attack at the same time (within one minute) - the game only checks how much health is left after someone is done attacking, so if 10 people attack it at about the same time, they will over kill it by hundreds of thousands of damage, everyone will still get their attack points, plus they will get the 10k for a kill. it saves on money, not like thats an issue, but it will save on space for summoning new monsters, and everyone will actually gain better points than say a level 2 buy.

Yeah but overkilling the boss for 10k bonus, is it worth it. If you get 20 players that do 60k. Does the overkill calculate well to make up the loss of bonus points?

[Fossil]

My calculations based on my averages showed that lvl 3 had the best yield when the bonus was factored in. Lvl 5 was a close second. Lvl was good for our GM as he could kill the orc in one pass and get 80k per energy.

[Mogath]

Yeah but overkilling the boss for 10k bonus, is it worth it. If you get 20 players that do 60k. Does the overkill calculate well to make up the loss of bonus points?

Not sure if mentioned but all it takes is a bit of coordination. If a GM and one other attack a level 1 orc boss at 59 minutes together they will both:

- Kill the boss and not leave it with 10k or 20k health
- Receive a large amount of personal points

Last night after we killed a level 5 orc boss we decided to have 3 of us farm level one orcs for personal points always attacking at 59 minutes.

[sxespanky]

Yeah but overkilling the boss for 10k bonus, is it worth it. If you get 20 players that do 60k. Does the overkill calculate well to make up the loss of bonus points?

yes it is - 20*60,000+10,000bonus = 1,210,000 points

from what i see, jumping a level lowers damage by at least 10k, so with using that figure
20*50,000 +200,000 bonus (level 2) = 1,200,000 points (and thats assuming AT LEAST your only doing 10k less, ussuallu its more, so this number should be lower.)

Can anyone show damage from level one, two, three or more, it would help to see all to get extremely accurate infrmaiton

[sxespanky]

Last night after we killed a level 5 orc boss we decided to have 3 of us farm level one orcs for personal points always attacking at 59 minutes.

the other nice thing about this, is the fight takes over a minute, so as long as everyone gets into battle before the first one exits, your fine.

[BethMo]

My numbers:
level 1: 57k
level 2: 38k
level 3: 30k
level 4: 25k
level 5: 24k

My computations: killing level 3's is best for guild points. Killing level 5's is next best. Mass-attacking a level 1 is nearly as good as 5's for the guild, and is best for individual points. Level 2's and 4's just plain suck.

[BethMo]

Another thing to take into account is time spent mindlessly tapping buttons. There's so much variance in latency and device speed that I didn't even try to get numbers for this. However... the higher the level, the shorter time each fight takes.

So if you're not taking gems into account, just guild-points-per-minute, level 5 might turn out to be better than level 3 and level 3 was definitely better than level 1.

[sxespanky]

My numbers:
level 1: 57k
level 2: 38k
level 3: 30k
level 4: 25k
level 5: 24k


by chance, do you know the HP, and bonus for each level?

[Delimar]

I calculated all of this over in DARQ for our push. The numbers showed level 3 to be the best to grind for a boost in guild points. It was worth more points per hit. However, if you didn't have eb+ armors, level 1s were the best for you.

[Twh21702]

by chance, do you know the HP, and bonus for each level?
lv 1 was 70000 HP and 10000 bonus
lv 2 was 700000 HP 200000 bonus
lv 3 was 3.3 m HP and 3.3 m bonus (or close to that)
we didn't go any higher then 3, sorry.

[Delimar]

Level 1: 70k HP, 10k Bonus, Total 80k
Level 2: 700k HP, 200k Bonus, Total 900k
Level 3: 3.3 Mil HP, 3.45 Mil Bonus, Total 6.75 Mil
Level 4: 5.7 Mil HP,6.3 Mil Bonus, Total 12 Mil
Level 5: 8.0 Mil HP, 12 Mil Bonus, Total 20 Mil

[sxespanky]

Thanks Delimar- ima eat lunch and then run some numbers according to Bethmos attack numbers. just for funsies.

[Alexistheking124]

Another thing to take into account is time spent mindlessly tapping buttons. There's so much variance in latency and device speed that I didn't even try to get numbers for this. However... the higher the level, the shorter time each fight takes.

So if you're not taking gems into account, just guild-points-per-minute, level 5 might turn out to be better than level 3 and level 3 was definitely better than level 1.

This. If it takes 2 min to do 60k on a level 1 but 30 seconds to do 20k on a 5. You get 20k more points by the end of 2 minutes. If you are gemming this would make 5s the most valuable for scoring the most points in a war.

So thinking about it and simple math.
80k per 2 min x 30 (60 min ÷ 2min) is 2.4 mil an hour.
at 72 hours that is 172.8 mil. So the high scorers that got booted probably had legit scores after all. Minus the guy that abused the system.

[sxespanky]

This. If it takes 2 min to do 60k on a level 1 but 30 seconds to do 20k on a 5. You get 20k more points by the end of 2 minutes. If you are gemming this would make 5s the most valuable for scoring the most points in a war.

So thinking about it and simple math.
80k per 2 min x 30 (60 min ÷ 2min) is 2.4 mil an hour.
at 72 hours that is 172.8 mil. So the high scorers that got booted probably had legit scores after all. Minus the guy that abused the system.

that's if your using time as a factor, im using energy as a factor. why would you knowingly waste your gems (or money) if you could net more points off of less energy?

also keep in mind, if you Actually played for 72 hours straight... your talking 10 gems every 2 minutes, times, 30 = 1 hour, times 72 total hours =43,200 gems total, without a break.

The CHEAPEST gems are 1,800 gems for 199.99 (and no, android doesnt get cheaper play cards like itunes gets) was there a sale? if so, the sale price is ussualy 150ish for the rianbows bounty.SO? that person bought 24 rainbow packs

regular price = $4,800 dollars?
sale price = $3,600 dollars.

yall know an xbox one, flat screen tv, a years worth on internet from comcast, and roughly 5-10 video games is cheaper than that right?

[Alexistheking124]

Time is of the essence for some players.

[Alexistheking124]

That is true but some players spend that much on this game. There was a 2012 business article stating gree grossed 5 mil in a short time on knights and dragons.

[Twh21702]

that's if your using time as a factor, im using energy as a factor. why would you knowingly waste your gems (or money) if you could net more points off of less energy?

also keep in mind, if you Actually played for 72 hours straight... your talking 10 gems every 2 minutes, times, 30 = 1 hour, times 72 total hours =43,200 gems total, without a break.

The CHEAPEST gems are 1,800 gems for 199.99 (and no, android doesnt get cheaper play cards like itunes gets) was there a sale? if so, the sale price is ussualy 150ish for the rianbows bounty.SO? that person bought 24 rainbow packs

regular price = $4,800 dollars?
sale price = $3,600 dollars.

yall know an xbox one, flat screen tv, a years worth on internet from comcast, and roughly 5-10 video games is cheaper than that right?

Those are some crazy numbers. I thought my 400 and some gems was alot.....

[sxespanky]

That is true but some players spend that much on this game. There was a 2012 business article stating gree grossed 5 mil in a short time on knights and dragons.

freals... ive been around long enough to know they make tons of money and don't implement a thing to this game. they had a special sale push during that xmas, and a short time being in a business quarter. when youve watched a game do nothing with itself for such a long time, you get antsie to just make your own game but better. i'm thinking about it.

Also, Edit your posts, dont make back to back posts, its sloppy.

[Alexistheking124]

Ill do what I want with my posts as long as they follow the forum rules. You should of posted your huge addition after my post.

[sxespanky]

Ill do what I want with my posts as long as they follow the forum rules. You should of posted your huge addition after my post.

i only say that because other wise youre spamming the forum with extra blocks minutes apart. the more you type the more i think your a troll.

[Alexistheking124]

QUOTE=sxespanky;1340867]i only say that because other wise youre spamming the forum with extra blocks minutes apart. the more you type the more i think your a troll.[/QUOTE]
Why are you giving me a hard time. I'm trying to be supportive and when I think I found a suupportive reason to fight higher level raid bosses you got upset. Why are you calling me a troll for posting back to back forum posts. Im no expert in forum etiquecy and thought that the posts would appropriately show my seperate thoughts to you edited post.

[BethMo]

by chance, do you know the HP, and bonus for each level?

http://forums.gree.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=6472&d=1404843861

(The "pseudo" column is the epic boss level used in damage calculations.)

[Rookeye]

Thanks for the calcs, Bethmo. :)

[sxespanky]

Why are you giving me a hard time. I'm trying to be supportive and when I think I found a suupportive reason to fight higher level raid bosses you got upset. Why are you calling me a troll for posting back to back forum posts. Im no expert in forum etiquecy and thought that the posts would appropriately show my seperate thoughts to you edited post.


Ill do what I want with my posts as long as they follow the forum rules. You should of posted your huge addition after my post.

im not giving you a hard time, im just informing you on what people have hoped for in the past few years, this game has had close to no change since the day it was released. that map you look at, was day one release, no additional content. just dont be disgruntled in a year when you go, dang gree, its been a year and you haven't updated anything how come? because their business model just doesn't do that. it scraps it and makes more games.

i say your trolling because you expected me to post my reply timely in the middle of yours so you dont double block stack thoughts, easy way to separate thoughts,

give a few lines and start a new one. bam. makes your post pretty easy to read, especially when your already only leaving 1 sentence in each post. if i have a post and i was last to post, i amend my post. it just looks better than having 2 slightly finished thoughts sitting on each other.

Edit - Heres some false hope that they gave us
http://forums.gree.net/showthread.php?73018-**OFFICIAL**-Feedback-and-Suggestions-Thread!
this was thrown out there october of 2013
do you see how many people have chimed in here? and guess what, nothing has been implimented. its sad. getting your hopes up isnt worth it, giving them ideas isnt worth it unless u can start a riot, and even then, they ask you to not or u get banned, but eventually met those demands 1/12 of the way (11+movement)

[Alexistheking124]

http://forums.gree.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=6472&d=1404843861

(The "pseudo" column is the epic boss level used in damage calculations.)

Could we get a time table implemented at next raid. It would help to estimate the time needed to score x amount of points.

@Spanky: you are right and in one of the older posts Elita stated that there was technical limitations. However, with the addition of Tadaah and his charismatic charm, Gree would be a fool to employ him with no plans to update Knights and Dragons.

[sxespanky]

http://i.imgur.com/EVv6txh.png

Warning, this is just my calculations on 334 attacks, with people with the exact same attack strength, or one guy with way too much time on his hands. the way i figure, if found a common amount of attacks that kill all levels at the same time, that would be your optimal number to use for configuring the perfect column to attack, for that one person.

As you can see, the higher Orc you attack, the lower personal points you acquire, but more guild points you get, the other way around is the lower you attack, you get less guild points but more personal points (what reward do you aim at ;) - also note that personal points do not reflect bonus points.) it looks that guild wise, level 3 orc was the way to go. (also not the last row, Orc one shot is assuming everyone only one shots a level one, this is not even possible if you have many people going, due to the hour of wait time between them leaving and coming back, only for fun)

[sxespanky]

@Spanky: you are right and in one of the older posts Elita stated that there was technical limitations. However, with the addition of Tadaah and his charismatic charm, Gree would be a fool to employ him with no plans to update Knights and Dragons.

sorry bud, there use to be people with charm before him, you don't hire mean people to monitor your forums, you hire ppl with great people skills, not to mention i doubt anyone was "hired" to baby sit here, the only reason hes here is because he prolly got bored and work. or felt the need to put 2 cents in every now and then to keep the prison riots at bay. your looking way to deep into this. if he was actually here to get info for a new update, he'd be a lot more involved. you must not be very old, that or very naive on how the world around you works.

id also like to add, many people with great charisma are not employed to make things better, they are employed to con people out of money, and make others feel better about the bad decisions they make.

you don't play video games, and add Charisma modifiers to your character because you generally want to be a nice person. you want to con people, that's how it works in the real world as well.

and one last edit - i know this because i'm fairly persuasive and have great charisma, and worked at staples(office supply and electronics) for 5 years, i had to dupe people into buying more stuff they didn't need, and make them feel like they absolutely needed it, and to not even think twice about it. that's how i got hours every week.

[Alexistheking124]

sorry bud, there use to be people with charm before him, you don't hire mean people to monitor your forums, you hire ppl with great people skills, not to mention i doubt anyone was "hired" to baby sit here, the only reason hes here is because he prolly got bored and work. or felt the need to put 2 cents in every now and then to keep the prison riots at bay. your looking way to deep into this. if he was actually here to get info for a new update, he'd be a lot more involved. you must not be very old, that or very naive on how the world around you works.

id also like to add, many people with great charisma are not employed to make things better, they are employed to con people out of money, and make others feel better about the bad decisions they make.

you don't play video games, and add Charisma modifiers to your character because you generally want to be a nice person. you want to con people, that's how it works in the real world as well.

and one last edit - i know this because i'm fairly persuasive and have great charisma, and worked at staples(office supply and electronics) for 5 years, i had to dupe people into buying more stuff they didn't need, and make them feel like they absolutely needed it, and to not even think twice about it. that's how i got hours every week.

I am 26 and not naive. I think Gree is really trying to improve their bottom line. If you truly believe the best way to improve your monetary assets is through conning people I would stop buying from you. Seeing as I don't buy from staples anyway I guess I'm ok.

The best way for me to run a business is through genuine care and hospitality for the potential customers. A friendly service with a smile. Take critism and improve yourself. There is always something that can be done better and if you can do it yourself you should. My two cents spanky. I'm not your boss but your pessimistic view and thinking of conning people disheartens me greatly.

[Bigtaff]

Although you as an individual get good points defeating L1 Orc. The guild gets better points from higher level Orc kills

[sxespanky]

that's it - its not just me, its society. that is a model that everyone uses. did you know that family video / Hollywood video / movie rentals in general aren't specifically looking at how many movies they sell, its how many soda, and candy and popcorn did you add to each sale. staples, office depot, best buy, radio shack, are all trying to make you buy a 20 dollar usb cable with your printer (buy them at the dollar store for a few bucks!). anywhere else, that sells items check the "basket" - which is how much is the average amount of money someone spends in your store. there are reasons that end caps have flashy items and may have mismatched compared to what else is around that area - its marketing to make more impulse purchase (tricks to make you buy stuff you don't need). that's the market with all business. you telling me your my age makes it even worse, that means your so sheltered that you don't understand business marketing. that or you have never been in retail.

sorry chief, it doesn't matter what store you are walking into, once you walk in, someones trying to con you. (by the way, it doesn't stop at retail, do you want frys with that? have you ever been to the doctor? phone/internet/tv? Up-charge!)

if you think anyone in a huge Billion dollar business like gree is making content out of the kindness of their heart, then your just looney.

[EFIL 4 ZAGGIN]

thanks for doing the math, answered some questions I had and saved me a lot of time.