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Flapjacks
03-04-2014, 05:56 PM
The real CC is played under the auspices of what's known as Kampu Gacha. Look up those words to see how you're being played.

GucciMane
03-04-2014, 06:12 PM
The real CC is played under the auspices of what's known as Kampu Gacha. Look up those words to see how you're being played.


Not necessarily.


Some many of the events are.



This is a distinction that barely ANYONE makes on these forums, but it is a huge one, and this is the aspect which got the games illegal in Japan.



Case Events, particularly Open 10 events are whats really kompu gacha.



Paying X amount of Gold(read: $$) for Y virtual item isn't the kampu gacha aspect alone. No one is being played here. Come on now.


Paying X amount of Gold(read: $$) for a chance to receive a part of an item which combines into a Grand Prize IS, however. Especially when these "parts" are completely useless. I urge players to note this distinction and determine what they value themselves.


Now some events like this recent boss event falls in a more "grey" area - but there is nothing really left up to "chance" with a boss - you knew the tiers going in.


But Case events should be what bring the whole fortress down. Especially with their discrimination of drop rates.

It's been confirmed now that older accounts face lower find rates in crate/case events than newer accounts - this has been done to encourage a continuing of spending as newer players prestige into older, and more lucrative targets.

Flapjacks
03-04-2014, 06:26 PM
Not necessarily.


Some many of the events are.



This is a distinction that barely ANYONE makes on these forums, but it is a huge one, and this is the aspect which got the games illegal in Japan.



Case Events, particularly Open 10 events are whats really kompu gacha.



Paying X amount of Gold(read: $$) for Y virtual item isn't the kampu gacha aspect alone. No one is being played here. Come on now.


Paying X amount of Gold(read: $$) for a chance to receive a part of an item which combines into a Grand Prize IS, however. Especially when these "parts" are completely useless. I urge players to note this distinction and determine what they value themselves.


Now some events like this recent boss event falls in a more "grey" area - but there is nothing really left up to "chance" with a boss - you knew the tiers going in.


But Case events should be what bring the whole fortress down. Especially with their discrimination of drop rates.

It's been confirmed now that older accounts face lower find rates in crate/case events than newer accounts - this has been done to encourage a continuing of spending as newer players prestige into older, and more lucrative targets.

I totally agree with all you've noted. I was just trying to shed light on how these events work.

Thank you

Captain Torgue
03-04-2014, 06:30 PM
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/TylerYork/20120525/171124/

The Japanese social gaming market is substantial, worth $1.4 billion in 2011, and it is dominated by two major players: GREE and DeNA. When rumors began circulating that the “kompu gacha” reward system that GREE and DeNA utilized extensively was going to be made illegal, their stocks were pummeled by over 20% in two days. Now, kompu gacha is illegal in Japan and both companies are swearing up and down that the new regulation will not cripple their businesses. So what is “kompu gacha”? What made is so valuable to the kingpins of the Japanese social gaming space? And why was it made illegal?

GucciMane
03-04-2014, 06:31 PM
I totally agree with all you've noted. I was just trying to shed light on how these events work.

Thank you

:)


I'll leave you with one more example of what kompu gacha is and isn't, and how to avoid the thought process that goads so many into the trap:




Suppose you are a light gold spender (<=640 gold per event cycle). You don't like paying for events, only war, but will throw down for a nice prize if its relatively cheap. On your event schedule, lets say you have an epic boss event and an open 10.


*On the epic boss, you can continue to play for free until you notice you're not damaging the boss in the given 2 hours. You can gauge where you are , see feedback from other players in your tier on health and A&F's event information, and determine, mathematically even, if you were so inclined, if its worthwhile for you spend to finish the event or to call it quits.


This is not kompu gacha.



*On the case event, you continue to play for free until around 2 days before the end of the event. You notice you have plenty of free opens left, you're around 6-9/10 and 4-7/8, but you've gotten 6 BLNT's in a row. If your account is older than 9 months, you will probably be on the lower end of that spectrum, as your rates are diminished throughout. But you don't want to get in a situation where you drop all of your cycle's gold and you keep getting repeat items from gold opens. You have *NO IDEA* Of knowing when you will get this item, if even. Your only feedback from other players is from the old school guys who know to finish the event immediately based on rates/day and spent well over your range to complete. The closer your get to the prize, the lower your %age find rates are. Even if you happened to find the rare open-8s, you'll find some way NOT to find the common one that everyone got at the beginning. You are essentially gambling at this point - you don't know whether your free opens will get you the prize (many new players find this happen ;) ) or if it will take you over 1K gold (my situation).




Now realize the vast, vast majority of players are light gold spenders. This is why kompu gacha can be so damaging to them. I urge you all to consider each event for what it is, ask yourself if you're getting what you want with the amount you pay for it, and then make an informed decision if you want to participate or not.

Flapjacks
03-04-2014, 06:40 PM
:)


I'll leave you with one more example of what kompu gacha is and isn't, and how to avoid the thought process that goads so many into the trap:




Suppose you are a light gold spender (<=640 gold per event cycle). You don't like paying for events, only war, but will throw down for a nice prize if its relatively cheap. On your event schedule, lets say you have an epic boss event and an open 10.


*On the epic boss, you can continue to play for free until you notice you're not damaging the boss in the given 2 hours. You can gauge where you are , see feedback from other players in your tier on health and A&F's event information, and determine, mathematically even, if you were so inclined, if its worthwhile for you spend to finish the event or to call it quits.


This is not kompu gacha.



*On the case event, you continue to play for free until around 2 days before the end of the event. You notice you have plenty of free opens left, you're around 6-9/10 and 4-7/8, but you've gotten 6 BLNT's in a row. If your account is older than 9 months, you will probably be on the lower end of that spectrum, as your rates are diminished throughout. But you don't want to get in a situation where you drop all of your cycle's gold and you keep getting repeat items from gold opens. You have *NO IDEA* Of knowing when you will get this item, if even. Your only feedback from other players is from the old school guys who know to finish the event immediately based on rates/day and spent well over your range to complete. The closer your get to the prize, the lower your %age find rates are. Even if you happened to find the rare open-8s, you'll find some way NOT to find the common one that everyone got at the beginning. You are essentially gambling at this point - you don't know whether your free opens will get you the prize (many new players find this happen ;) ) or if it will take you over 1K gold (my situation).




Now realize the vast, vast majority of players are light gold spenders. This is why kompu gacha can be so damaging to them. I urge you all to consider each event for what it is, ask yourself if you're getting what you want with the amount you pay for it, and then make an informed decision if you want to participate or not.

I like & appreciate the way you break it down for people.

This link telegraphs how each case of gacha works & some are applicable to CC.

http://www.slideshare.net/altnate/kompu-gacha-examplesofcompletegachaen

TZora
03-04-2014, 09:47 PM
IBTL ... i've been glorified with a 2 week's ban for using that magic word .. but definitely a nice convo here :)

Happyperson1
03-05-2014, 08:46 AM
Gucci guy/gal....you say : It's been confirmed now that older accounts face lower find rates in crate/case events than newer accounts - this has been done to encourage a continuing of spending as newer players prestige into older, and more lucrative targets.

Can you clarify? And what proof do you have that the seasoned accounts are disadvantaged?

GucciMane
03-05-2014, 06:45 PM
I SPOKE TOO SOON.


As of this next 24-hour LTQ, LTQS in crime city are now kampu gacha as well.



They must have read this thread. Any idea you post on these forums on how to manipulate and steal from customers, mark my words they will take it and use it in their next event.


Pay 20 gold for a roll at the slot machine, hope you get those uncommon drops!

bravo 6 vk
03-05-2014, 06:54 PM
As of this next 24-hour LTQ, LTQS in crime city are now kampu gacha as well.
x100
extras

ilovegree
03-05-2014, 11:47 PM
The real CC is played under the auspices of what's known as Kampu Gacha. Look up those words to see how you're being played.

Flapjacks
03-06-2014, 12:06 PM
I SPOKE TOO SOON.


As of this next 24-hour LTQ, LTQS in crime city are now kampu gacha as well.



They must have read this thread. Any idea you post on these forums on how to manipulate and steal from customers, mark my words they will take it and use it in their next event.


Pay 20 gold for a roll at the slot machine, hope you get those uncommon drops!

No more giving them any ideas.

murf
03-06-2014, 12:21 PM
Gucci guy/gal....you say : It's been confirmed now that older accounts face lower find rates in crate/case events than newer accounts - this has been done to encourage a continuing of spending as newer players prestige into older, and more lucrative targets.

Can you clarify? And what proof do you have that the seasoned accounts are disadvantaged?

I highly doubt this is true....this is just one of the many conspiracy theories that have been proposed about this game....Fooled By Randomness, it's a good read.

murf
03-06-2014, 12:38 PM
I SPOKE TOO SOON.


As of this next 24-hour LTQ, LTQS in crime city are now kampu gacha as well.



They must have read this thread. Any idea you post on these forums on how to manipulate and steal from customers, mark my words they will take it and use it in their next event.


Pay 20 gold for a roll at the slot machine, hope you get those uncommon drops!

I don't see the difference between this event and say an Epic Boss event. You are guaranteed a item drop (of value) when you use gold, the only difference is that some of these items also (not only) count towards some greater prize. So it's not like a collect 10 event where you aren't guaranteed an item if use gold to only speed up the opening.

GucciMane
03-06-2014, 03:01 PM
I don't see the difference between this event and say an Epic Boss event. You are guaranteed a item drop (of value) when you use gold, the only difference is that some of these items also (not only) count towards some greater prize. So it's not like a collect 10 event where you aren't guaranteed an item if use gold to only speed up the opening.


I'm not even going to bother arguing this (EDIT: oops I did) You admitted the words "Expected Value" in the official thread, if you have any knowledge, any SHRED of familiarity at all what that term actually means in context with the event then we both know you are just arguing me for the sake of arguing. We can argue about fixed drop open 10 rates all we want, but there is NO argument here the distinction between events.

You know damn well you could get a common drop on every single boss level and still get the nice final prize.


It's all about the final prize. People used to drop a vault for a 3k item, you know why some of those people are still playing? Cause that 3k item had a modifier on it. Good lord.


Not the case with this event.

Flapjacks
03-06-2014, 03:05 PM
I highly doubt this is true....this is just one of the many conspiracy theories that have been proposed about this game....Fooled By Randomness, it's a good read.

Opposing a conspiracy theory through "highly doubting" is itself a conspiracy.

murf
03-06-2014, 04:18 PM
Opposing a conspiracy theory through "highly doubting" is itself a conspiracy.

Maybe. But you can have fun finding patterns in random events to explain whatever you believe to be true. And then use confirmation bias by having people post if they experience the same thing

murf
03-06-2014, 04:23 PM
I'm not even going to bother arguing this (EDIT: oops I did) You admitted the words "Expected Value" in the official thread, if you have any knowledge, any SHRED of familiarity at all what that term actually means in context with the event then we both know you are just arguing me for the sake of arguing. We can argue about fixed drop open 10 rates all we want, but there is NO argument here the distinction between events.

You know damn well you could get a common drop on every single boss level and still get the nice final prize.


It's all about the final prize. People used to drop a vault for a 3k item, you know why some of those people are still playing? Cause that 3k item had a modifier on it. Good lord.


Not the case with this event.

Listen, I'm not going to debate probbility theory with you. As an exotic derivative traders I know a thing or two about it.

I just assumed the 90k of attack stats you got from completing the LTQ (without the MoBo) was the equivalent of the prizes you got when completing the epic boss event.

Since you are always guaranteed a weapon, I don't see how you can say this is pure gambling. You always get a prize, it's just the value of the prize that differs. At least that has been my experience, I've had 100% drops so far.

GucciMane
03-06-2014, 04:38 PM
Ah. Well not only do I find trading on derivatives an economically unsustainable practice, I also find it a morally reprehensible one as well.


So by "exotic," do you mean the mortgages are on houses built in other countries???? :confused:




Fact of the matter is, you bringing up the ever-irrelevant "rate of return" in the other thread says everything about you not giving a damn what anyone in these threads are talking about - The fundamental difference between THIS ltq and every other LTQ we've seen and (considered) playing.



Hedge your bets, Jack, turns out there is no "rate of return" on any pixelated item on this game unless you sell your account (ATR) - maybe thats how you derivative guys get away with it telling us there is going to be a return when there isnt one ;) - save for the social connectivity (FREE, or at the price of bandwidth in the modern era) and 'fulfillment' or whatever you call it

murf
03-06-2014, 05:02 PM
Ah. Well not only do I find trading on derivatives an economically unsustainable practice, I also find it a morally reprehensible one as well.


So by "exotic," do you mean the mortgages are on houses built in other countries???? :confused:




Fact of the matter is, you bringing up the ever-irrelevant "rate of return" in the other thread says everything about you not giving a damn what anyone in these threads are talking about - The fundamental difference between THIS ltq and every other LTQ we've seen and (considered) playing.



Hedge your bets, Jack, turns out there is no "rate of return" on any pixelated item on this game unless you sell your account (ATR) - maybe thats how you derivative guys get away with it telling us there is going to be a return when there isnt one ;) - save for the social connectivity (FREE, or at the price of bandwidth in the modern era) and 'fulfillment' or whatever you call it

Lol. Clearly, you have no idea what you are taking about.

You can only talk about the derivative markets from what you heard from the mainstream media, which only constituted an incredibly small portion of all derivative transactions. There is an actually a very productive purpose for derivative uses, so that companies can offload risks they don't want so they can focus on their core competencies.

And when I mentioned 'risk-adjusted return'. I was referencing that there is a distinct difference in a known value and a random value that has the same expected value. So, in plain speak. If an old style LTQ would have gained you 100,000 stats for 1,000 gold and the expected value of this LTQ has the same rewards and cost. The old one would be superior on a 'risk-adjusted' basis. So, in fact, yes it does have a place in this discussion, barring the fact that you don't understand it.

Edit: I never said this lTQ was the same as the others. I said this LTQ was more similar to the Epic Boss then a collect 10 event. And no one complains a out epic bosses.

Flapjacks
03-06-2014, 08:15 PM
Maybe. But you can have fun finding patterns in random events to explain whatever you believe to be true. And then use confirmation bias by having people post if they experience the same thing

Or you could attempt to use grandiose words, yet not have the ability to correct fused sentences.

In truth, there are things about the game that appear rather repellant; things that it is an offense in critics like you to defend. Its typical of one side of the forum--of what still seems to many its most typical side. But it does not seem to me the really good side of this forum; and they remain, I think, less an example of things to defend in life than of things to avoid.

Speaking of divergent

Luv4UR Mom
03-06-2014, 08:17 PM
Surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet, but I don't buy into this kompu gacha crap.... I personally have had really good luck with events over the last couple cycles. Many people have attributed this to the fact that my brother recently started working at Gree, but I don't buy into that nonsense.

Mackie Messer
03-06-2014, 08:27 PM
Ha! Gotta say this has been an informative thread. I'll keep it mind.

Hutchinson
03-07-2014, 02:22 AM
Ha! Gotta say this has been an informative thread.
Also thanks from my side.
CC was originally set up as a great strategic game.
Now it is a gambling game in Kampu Gacha style.
Sad, but it seems the gambling style generates more revenue for Gree than the old style.
As I am in this game for over 2 years, I not able to win the game yet.
But I think the last changes in rival list, boss event and LTQ will enable me to win within the next months.
(Gree, maybe you could ruin the syndicate battles - they are still a fun aspect in the game...)