The Divide

[andy2]

I have been playing this game for slightly less than a year, have worked hard and spent some money and have joined a top 50 team. I am, what I would consider the 'target market' for a game company such as this. I am not rich, though I have a decent job with a steady income. I found a game with a good overall design and would be willing to spend, within reason, to stay competitive in it, and keep the company going. I feel, and Gree may disagree with me, that players like myself make up the majority of the customer base. There is usually a top 1-5% who will spend relentlessly to stay ahead. The following 25-50% who will spend moderately to have fun (I would consider myself in this majority) and the remainder who are not in a position to spend much or are still deciding if this is the game for them to play.

Now that the background info is done with, I am making this post because I have observed some troubling trends in this game and it is my opinion that unless something is done quickly this game will eventually outrun its customer base and cease to exist. The trend I am talking about is the 'divide' that stands between the top group and the average player. The way the game is designed is to help the strong grow stronger and the weak stay weak. This is fine to a certain degree because there is obviously a need to reward paying customers. However, this becomes a major issue when the barrier to entry becomes so large, that is does not make sense anymore for new players to come into the game.

I will use a couple of the more recent examples to back up my observation. The current 'counter the insurgents' LTQ requires over 200,000 energy to complete. For a new player (or even someone playing under a year like myself with the standard energy regen time) they are able to regen 4,800 energy per day giving them a total of 24,000 for a 5 day event. In order to finish the event the player would require around 3,500 gold depending on how much energy they started with. That is a dollar amount over $200 to finish a single event. The only reason I can think of that the requirement would be so high is that the top 1-5% the 'guaranteed spenders' have many energy regeneration bonuses and thus if the requirement was much lower than 200k energy would not have a need to spend at all. The same can be said for previous epic boss event. The first raid boss allowed the top teams to farm so many units and raise their stats that in order to ensure the top 1-5% spent to finish the epic boss, the required health more than doubled.

Basically, instead of making sure the majority of players spend a little to obtain reachable goals, the game creators are pushing the goals higher and higher to ensure the top players must continue to spend. As a middle of the road player I refuse to bite on this tactic and pay the inflated prices, because of the game design. If the model doesn't stop increasing the divide between the top, middle, and bottom it will become pointless for new players to come into the game because by then it will cost $100s more per event to finish and there will still be no chance to become competitive. Without new players, no game can stay around for too long and will go under. So, I apologize for the long post but I simply wanted to get my opinion out there and I am curious to see if it has been noticed by others, or if I am alone in perceiving the trends this way.

[knuckk]

Nice post I'll give ya a push

[Jeanna]

I agree with you Andy2. Another sad trend is people deliberately being mean to others they do not even know. I think it is from frustration in this game. I have been playing for over a year and it is consistently getting harder to justify staying in the game. Many fine players have left because of the stat inflation and many more are getting more disenchanted with the game. Gree could prevent and I hope they do.

[Ubnvs2]

I agree completely, I'm probably a minimal spender relative to others on this game. When I purchase gold I try to spend it wisely (I've already purchased it so no comments on how my cash was already wasted lol). But this is a reason I am probably more cautious on where I use it. with the high goals set it very quickly puts me off using any of my gold on that ltq, boss or whatever it is ATM.I don't know if others feel the same or not. It's my 2 cents.

[Thumpr]

Good on ya. This is very well said. I've been thinking about this too and how month by month the cost is increasing exponentially. $200 for one LTQ? And think about what we are actually getting for that money. While this is an enjoyable game (with frustrations), but compare this game to World of Warcraft or the soon to be Elder Scrolls game coming out. Small monthly fee for VERY impressive graphics and huge worlds compared to Sega Genesis quality graphics and animations. To finish this event, if t cost me $10-$20 to complete prestige...I'd consider that. $200?!?! Long walk, short pier.

[JCL]

How exactly is this enjoyable? I really only play to occupy time between Xbox games (during matchmaking, between games, etc). During wars I get on hourly to help my faction, but it's not fun. It's become like Solataire. Just something to do to pass time. The graphics are great but I consistently scratch my head over the last few months as to why they'd destroy the essence of the game. Sorta like FM radio. Everyone used to listen to it, but then people started noticing, "Im listening to more commercials than music." Enter the iPod, streaming, etc, radio's dead for the most part.

[Mr llama]

I have been playing this game for slightly less than a year, have worked hard and spent some money and have joined a top 50 team. I am, what I would consider the 'target market' for a game company such as this. I am not rich, though I have a decent job with a steady income. I found a game with a good overall design and would be willing to spend, within reason, to stay competitive in it, and keep the company going. I feel, and Gree may disagree with me, that players like myself make up the majority of the customer base. There is usually a top 1-5% who will spend relentlessly to stay ahead. The following 25-50% who will spend moderately to have fun (I would consider myself in this majority) and the remainder who are not in a position to spend much or are still deciding if this is the game for them to play.

Now that the background info is done with, I am making this post because I have observed some troubling trends in this game and it is my opinion that unless something is done quickly this game will eventually outrun its customer base and cease to exist. The trend I am talking about is the 'divide' that stands between the top group and the average player. The way the game is designed is to help the strong grow stronger and the weak stay weak. This is fine to a certain degree because there is obviously a need to reward paying customers. However, this becomes a major issue when the barrier to entry becomes so large, that is does not make sense anymore for new players to come into the game.

I will use a couple of the more recent examples to back up my observation. The current 'counter the insurgents' LTQ requires over 200,000 energy to complete. For a new player (or even someone playing under a year like myself with the standard energy regen time) they are able to regen 4,800 energy per day giving them a total of 24,000 for a 5 day event. In order to finish the event the player would require around 3,500 gold depending on how much energy they started with. That is a dollar amount over $200 to finish a single event. The only reason I can think of that the requirement would be so high is that the top 1-5% the 'guaranteed spenders' have many energy regeneration bonuses and thus if the requirement was much lower than 200k energy would not have a need to spend at all. The same can be said for previous epic boss event. The first raid boss allowed the top teams to farm so many units and raise their stats that in order to ensure the top 1-5% spent to finish the epic boss, the required health more than doubled.

Basically, instead of making sure the majority of players spend a little to obtain reachable goals, the game creators are pushing the goals higher and higher to ensure the top players must continue to spend. As a middle of the road player I refuse to bite on this tactic and pay the inflated prices, because of the game design. If the model doesn't stop increasing the divide between the top, middle, and bottom it will become pointless for new players to come into the game because by then it will cost $100s more per event to finish and there will still be no chance to become competitive. Without new players, no game can stay around for too long and will go under. So, I apologize for the long post but I simply wanted to get my opinion out there and I am curious to see if it has been noticed by others, or if I am alone in perceiving the trends this way.Playing for a over two years I have to say this is the way it's been since the beginning. Each event gets harder and more expensive for those who don't spend enough for the gold bonus program it's always been difficult to finish a lte. Being in that category even with 6x energy I have very rarely finished an lte?

Not that i don't disagree with your opinion but at this time I have realized what this game is and what I like about it so playing and getting halfway through prestige for free is a bonus to me

[Robespierre]

If the model doesn't stop increasing the divide between the top, middle, and bottom it will become pointless. . .

Take your commie pinko sentiments somewhere else.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/203/669/gixXe.jpg

Talk like that ain't welcome 'round these parts.

Nahhh...just kidding.

You are 100% correct, and I like your post. Much fewer bonuses though than when they started. Search "First Strike Tomcat,""Deadly Bridge Jumper," and "Covert Jet Fighter." They were not peak prizes, but nice hidden bonuses achievable when presented. Generated quite a bit of controversy as well, which is probably why bonuses are only peak prizes now.

Keep up the good work sir.

[Dodd]

This might be the best assessment of the game ive ever seen.

[Archer59]

Great post and I totally agree with you. What I find frustrating is that most "factions" that post here, expressing their displeasure over how the game has progressed fail to do anything about it. I believe that the factions from the Top 150 down have more power than they realize and could really effect change if they put their minds to it.

For example: Personally, I feel the Streaks/Win goals has not improved the quality of the game for the majority of the factions out there. It is designed to benefit the top factions that spend the most money at the expense of everyone else; in particular those factions playing in the Top 150 to 1000 range. The super minis were developed and now make a living off defeating factions that can't touch a team where every player has over 10 million D. Why were these super minis developed? Simply because it didn't take long for upper tier factions to realize they would be matched with lower level factions and could easily score wins and win streaks against them.

So how do WE create change? Complaining to Gree doesn't work because WE keep coming back...so take a stand and don't participate in the next WD event. Do you really think that if these super minis had to face ONLY each other that something wouldn't be done about it? Not to mention the other effects that would occur by having literally hundreds of faction sitting on the sidelines.

What would a faction lose doing this? Really nothing. If you haven't figured it out by now, you can NEVER catch players or factions that permanently reside in the Top 100. This is the "divide" that this thread so eloquently talks about.

I'm not advocating doing nothing though. Between the boss, the raid boss, LTQ and FLTQ there are plenty of opportunities to improve your individual stats, thus your factions stats. Concentrate on these and leave the next WD event to those who drive all of Gree's decision making. It's time to stop being cannon fodder. My faction, the 48th TFW, which finished 137th last war will not fight one single battle this next WD event. While it would be nice if others joined us, we at least will know we tried to do something to help improve the game.

There's a saying that one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, each time expecting a different result. Don't you think it's time for us to change HOW we do things? Maybe then we will finally see a different result....and possibly take a small step towards closing that divide.

[Mcdoc]

Very well said. A lot of theses sentiments have been raised before - I would only add this:

Gree - if you had events where 40 to 50% of the players could finish for under 600 gold - then you keep the addiction at a maintainable rate for all and encourage others to jump in and go for the gold.

When moderate to heavy gold spenders turn their nose up to an LTQ that costs over 2 vaults to compete - you are pushing a drug that very few can afford & people will seek a new drug - just ask Huey Lewis :)

[Mw addict]

Very well put together message

[10s2bl8of10]

Excellent and extremely well structured post. It didn't seem lengthy at all as it was so easy to read, I wish that I was so disciplined.

I am a free player and therefore perhaps have no right to comment, but with stat inflation as it is, it seems pointless to expect people to spend silly amounts of their hard earned cash, just to obtain a unit that is likely to be of little worth in a few months time.

I think more and more people are coming to a similar conclusion and are breaking the habit of spending too much.

It would be a shame to see this game go down just because the decision makers at Gree have decided to milk it until it is dry.

[Ferr]

Hyperinflation
Yours,

[Hatethepackers]

Here's my story I've been playing over a year and at one time ran a top 50 faction . I've met a lot of good people on this game . Gree has made this game a total money game that you can not be competitive unless you spend tons of gold . I stepped down as a leader because of the time spent on this game is ridiculous every weekend there's a event . Your constantly on this game ,it take over your life !! game or meant to have fun on your down time not to be a job !! It's pretty sad that Gree has the attitude that it's a privilege for you to play there game . There customer support is just horrible and 9 out of 10 times when you do get a responds it's never resolved in your favor . I have spent 1000's on this game but no more . Good luck to all of you who still play and some day your going to have to realize its a game not a life standard that life is going by you and the money you spend could of been spent on something better instead of a unit that in real life that has no value!!!

[Omar_]

agree completely

[andy2]

Very well said. A lot of theses sentiments have been raised before - I would only add this:

Gree - if you had events where 40 to 50% of the players could finish for under 600 gold - then you keep the addiction at a maintainable rate for all and encourage others to jump in and go for the gold.

When moderate to heavy gold spenders turn their nose up to an LTQ that costs over 2 vaults to compete - you are pushing a drug that very few can afford & people will seek a new drug - just ask Huey Lewis :)

This is exactly my point with the caveat that it obviously does not cost 2 vaults for everyone. The cost is so high so that it will cost the top players maybe half a vault, this is poor game design because by making the top 1-5% who have achieved all of the energy bonuses spend the cost is now out of reach of the 25-50% majoirty. If instead the cost was realistic many more people would spend to complete it but it would mean that the top players probably achieve the goal for free. In order for the game to continue to grow and not die it is my opinion that a way needs to figure out how to make the price to finish events one constant lower figure for everyone and have the bigger spenders reap their rewards in other places like WD. Obviously this isnt a simple or easy solution but I'm not getting paid to fix it :)

[Luuzer]

yup, gree is digging their own grave. They are putting all their money to big players to spend much, and leave all the rest out of it. The rest will start to leave and soon big players will see, its boring without the "meat" and stop spending/leave and then this game is bygones. They are betting on the wrong horse. Yes its better to get money from 10 people instead of 10 000, but when those 10 dont spend anymore then what? Goals should be achievable for free also. I know some games are even developed like that. So big money bosses wouldnt get VERY big edge. So a very active free player could get similar to lazy gold player, just to keep things clear and attract more players and be competitive.

[Bravo Zulu]

Great post and I totally agree with you. What I find frustrating is that most "factions" that post here, expressing their displeasure over how the game has progressed fail to do anything about it. I believe that the factions from the Top 150 down have more power than they realize and could really effect change if they put their minds to it.

For example: Personally, I feel the Streaks/Win goals has not improved the quality of the game for the majority of the factions out there. It is designed to benefit the top factions that spend the most money at the expense of everyone else; in particular those factions playing in the Top 150 to 1000 range. The super minis were developed and now make a living off defeating factions that can't touch a team where every player has over 10 million D. Why were these super minis developed? Simply because it didn't take long for upper tier factions to realize they would be matched with lower level factions and could easily score wins and win streaks against them.

So how do WE create change? Complaining to Gree doesn't work because WE keep coming back...so take a stand and don't participate in the next WD event. Do you really think that if these super minis had to face ONLY each other that something wouldn't be done about it? Not to mention the other effects that would occur by having literally hundreds of faction sitting on the sidelines.

What would a faction lose doing this? Really nothing. If you haven't figured it out by now, you can NEVER catch players or factions that permanently reside in the Top 100. This is the "divide" that this thread so eloquently talks about.

I'm not advocating doing nothing though. Between the boss, the raid boss, LTQ and FLTQ there are plenty of opportunities to improve your individual stats, thus your factions stats. Concentrate on these and leave the next WD event to those who drive all of Gree's decision making. It's time to stop being cannon fodder. My faction, the 48th TFW, which finished 137th last war will not fight one single battle this next WD event. While it would be nice if others joined us, we at least will know we tried to do something to help improve the game.

There's a saying that one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, each time expecting a different result. Don't you think it's time for us to change HOW we do things? Maybe then we will finally see a different result....and possibly take a small step towards closing that divide.

Archer and I have a long and complicated history, but how we initially became friends were through posts like these. As someone who has also played the game almost two years, I have become increasingly frustrated to the point where I agree with this post about us needing to send a message of change.

I am in a faction that has been in the top 100 3 times, 150 on several occasions, and was a solid 250 team for months. This last war we came in somewhere around 550. I'm not sure the exact number because to be honest I don't even bother looking anymore. We did not drop tiers to do streaks or because our stats don't allow us to fight (although after streaking began we have met the super streakers a time or two). Honestly, we made a choice to stop spending gold except for fun (you know, the occasional battle that is really close and you are really having fun trying to see who wins!). The problem that we noticed was that each war, like the LTQs, boss events, etc. required more and more gold just to maintain a certain tier. Where you used to make it into the top 100 with 10 or so vaults spread out between a faction, it would take at least double that if not more at this point. Same for each tier on down. Add the price of the gold to now finish the raid boss, epic boss, and LTQs and what we have is a game that requires 500$ a month to stay slightly above average. As we level up the points we can score drop drastically, so there again you have to spend twice the gold individually to get the same points. Like Archer's faction, we have begun discussing the idea of not participating at all. The only reason we still do now is because we enjoy each other's company on war weekend. But with the raid boss, we have an event to spend the weekend on as a team. War is quickly becoming a chore with no real reward. The units for top 500 on down are not even a blip on our stats building. And they certainly aren't worth spending a weekend on.

Andy2 your point is well written and your observations completely accurate. Sadly, they have also been made (although not quite as well stated) for the past several months. I'm not sure what the answer is, and I'm not sure not participating will get Gree's attention- there is always another team (out of approximately 10k trams according to CJ) ready to move up in the ranks. Nonetheless, the point Archer made is salient, and we are the ones who need to stop contributing to the problem by trying to keep up with the Joneses. It is true that for the biggest bulk of factions, we can't ever catch up. And we could spend twice the money trying to maintain our stats which still will not be close to the top factions.

The earlier LTQs were great in that prizes with bonuses were distributed throughout- not just at the end of prestige mode. For way less money you gained a much better stat increase, and the variable prize distribution encouraged people to play even when they knew they could finish. Now, a lot people don't even start when they can't finish. Why would they?

I think it is not only a stand on the Wars that is required, but a stand in general. Gree does respond by eliminating events that have low participation. It's not a boycott, or a protest. It's a way to talk that Gree really listens to. The way some people flame and troll on this forum (even when the original point was legit) is not the way. Taking a stand by sitting out (not in anger or for some abstract retribution) events that are epically skewed lets a whole bunch of us talk at once.

[Boarder21]

I agree I am a light gold spender and I have seen this for sure. There is no way I will be able to spend $200 per event. There needs to be a way that they can make the events based on lvls or something so someone lvl 200 with 6000 energy has just as hard of a time as me lvl 64 with 1440 energy.

[Elite Enforcer]

Agree 100%.

[hoho]

like +1 .

[thetruth]

Epic Boss events cost high level players 3000-6000 gold (that aren't in the top 1%). Low levels have a clear advantage, even those not in top factions with massive stats to level ratio. Any new entrant or camper gets an extreme benefit out of this event. And each month add massively to stats with with no to little gold for low level.

High level players even with some energy boosts, say 12 energy per minute over 4 days get 69K energy. Events are 200K energy, do the math, that's over 2500 gold, way more than Epic Boss for low level. Plus Epic boss gives individual prizes with boost and combined with faction a second boost unit. LTQ rarely give boosts. Again, Epic Boss >>> LTQ.

Now lets move onto WD, Low Level that are active get massive points off higher level weak (and there's a lot of those targets), way easier for them to get higher WD points, again, easier to meet faction WD minimums with less gold to stay in top factions. Advantage low level once again.

Raid Bosses are new, plus its all about raw stat, so edge to high level, but minimum to achieve drop unit are pretty low so loss to low level isn't much and they get all the same faction prizes which contain the heavy stats and boosts, so marginal gain to high level.

Since WD and Epic Bosses, its been WAY more advantageous to be a camper and keep level low. High level, long time players have been at a huge disadvantage, there's no arguing this.

[honest Abe]

Gree's problem now is keeping the spenders spending (yes I am one of them). That's the issue with inflation, they are having problems slowing it down. If they don't offer increasingly nice units, they can't keep it going. That's what's behind the 1500 wins (floor of 10k gold in wd) and the medal count (otherwise people would skip events, lots of us haven't a clue anymore if we even get our units as they are buried under a scrap heap). It was nice when my top units were top 10s in a row. Colombian aggressor, Mig, Giza tank, p91, central fleet command... It all blew up on that busted fltq and gree just opened the floodgates. It is now spiraling out of control and if they don't fix it, it will blow up. It's a shame that the game developers here haven't taken a simple course in economics.

[gen tso]

I would have to concur . The game just isn't the same anymore . I've been in the same faction since I started almost a year now. While we did OK top 150 even 74 once with some help . Always seemed like it was money wasted. If only we could get to that next tier it would be rewarded with another picture with bonus text at the bottom :). My team very recently merged to make a team that damn sure should impress. If this doesn't satisfy me then I sell my base donate all to faction. As quite a few have done before me. I did at one point look at these guys as quitters,losers etc . now I'm starting to believe they had the right idea unfortunately .....I have met good people on this game and consider some of them friends probably the only reason I've been playing this long. Lol I have written a book.

[DTA-HOG]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. There are plenty of people in your rivals list that are weaker than you. There are 10 new players starting every hour vs 1 quitting. There will always be competition no matter where you are in your stats... Free player to heavy gold user. If you want top 10 prizes it ain't too hard to get them. Just whip out your wallet bro... A lot of players at the top go on breaks and there's always someone to replac them. They don't spend as much money as you all think. Please remember that $2k in a month gets you 50k gold. That's enough gold for anyone to complete all gold events for months. Spend wisely my friend...

[Birmingham171]

aGREEd....

[DTA-HOG]

aGREEd....

Cute... First time I've seen that.

[JCL]

Are you talking for just day to day? Or during WDP?

If WDP, then I know you're not in Top 100 or 150. I noticed about 3 wars ago we went from occasional stacked teams to 4 in 5 being stacked. I don't know about top 10, as I'm sure PUN, VFF, etc don't have to with sixteen thousand +30% ground, air and sea faction and individual bonus units. However, a very large majority of the Top 50-150 teams we encounter are 70-90% mini stacked accounts. Defense leader may be level 200, 15mil defense, but a majority of the remainders when we scout the other team are level 55-70, minimum 8mil defense. No one's hitting the defense leader again, so it doesn't matter if he's stacked or not.

The point originally made, and sub points made by others in reply are still supported and valid. The divide is getting much larger every war. If you don't see it, then I'd say math was not your strong point in school. Sure you can focus on ind but so are the top teams. So, you get 2-3 +5% bonuses, while they get 2-3 plus the 8, 12, 20% 4-6 units from WDP campaigns.

Finally, in WDP campaigns, gold won't give you a win over stronger players. Yes, you can power attack , but that's 50% over your stat. So, at 4 mil I'm doing 6 mil damage. When the weakest mini stacked player is 6 mil…. you lose those as well (due to magic pixie dust and a really weak, "Skill points matter!" argument that passes no logic test)


I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. There are plenty of people in your rivals list that are weaker than you. ..

[DTA-HOG]

WD is a whole different ball game. Stats matter there. Nothing else but Lady Luck and money. The rivals list I was referring to is the raid/attack list. Best advice for WD is equilateral stats amoung it's members. Take this for example. I first joined a top 4000 faction. In the first WD, I scored twice as many points as the whole team combined. In the next war, hardly anyone else had a target they can hit. If you and your team all score equal amounts, you will face fair competition. If you got a couple tap addicts in your faction, either match them for points, or let them move up the chain.

As far as skill points mattering... They do. I have seen consecutive successful attacks against foes with millions of stats stronger. I personally have no a/d skill points and I don't attempt to take on someone stronger than me. Unfortunately the old schoolers only had a/d option and if they leveled up to the top before energy and stamina came along, they are stuck with hundreds of a/d. Of course Gree is not going to make these skills obsolete. The old schoolers would demand a reset.

[Angel (85ss)]

Cheers to your post mate! Sadly well said! I'm in the same group as you mentioned 25%-50%, and i for once, was so surprised wight the ILTQ being so amazingly hard to complete! i have 3010 energy when the ILTQ started and still i was obligated to spend a minimum of 150 gold to complete "NORMAL" mode, its just sickens me D=

[GuyInLobsterSuit]

Take your commie pinko sentiments somewhere else.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/203/669/gixXe.jpg

Talk like that ain't welcome 'round these parts.

Nahhh...just kidding.

You are 100% correct, and I like your post. Much fewer bonuses though than when they started. Search "First Strike Tomcat,""Deadly Bridge Jumper," and "Covert Jet Fighter." They were not peak prizes, but nice hidden bonuses achievable when presented. Generated quite a bit of controversy as well, which is probably why bonuses are only peak prizes now.

Keep up the good work sir.

HaHa fantastic pic.

This is a very well articulated piece Andy cutting to the heart of the issues.

[alzl]

Good post. It'll likely fall on deaf ears but thanks for trying.