understanding a handheald videogame as compared to military conflict

[Robespierre]

I've been seeing some spitting out a "there's no rules in war," or "in war, X will happen" to justify some people's outrageous behavior in this little game where you tap a screen.

So just to be perfectly clear, this is a mobile device game where you tap on a screen; at home while you are in the can, or on the couch. It is not a deployment to a third-world country to do whatever political objective is needed by your nation's leadership. You are not being asked to actively kill another human being either in offensive operations, or protect person, property, and terrain in defensive operations. There is no risk of you ending up in a body bag because your friend failed do do his job in combat.

Those that claim that there are "no rules in war" have never been in war, and when there are no rules in war, the atrocities are so horrifying as to deform peoples bodies and minds for merely observing the aftermath. And that's not mentioning the victims of war atrocities (Google Image search "war atrocity" if you want to lose your appetite). You are texting each other quick messages and joking around, getting angry about the competition on your glitchy game.

This is called team sports...not "war." Most of us are familiar with team sports, and we have experience in acting as a responsible person within the social construct of a team, and then in competition. We typically trust our team mates to participate in the spirit of the competition, and we respect the competition to be concentrating on beating us on equal terms.

This is where the story of the sleeper cell in Hot Toddy made me upset, and then sad. SUPer Poone Pounder befriended and duped TKO/Hot Toddy in order to infiltrate and then destroy this experience for the other members on the unsuspecting team. Gaining trust, he was accepted, and Poone was in the faction in a position of trust. But the funny thing was, that TKO broke up for streak teams, and the sleeper cell could go along for the ride, because SUP wasn't threatened on their #1 spot with the split teams.

But this had become personal, this operation was to punish anyone associated with "penguins" no matter how long ago that had ended. Dropping allies to become a punching bag to sabotage any wins allowed this vulnerability to be exploited, but then driving the team to the deep pocket spenders and the source of the sleeper was too much for me. An in-your-face humiliation.

I understand competition; I have competed at high levels, as well as pick-up games for fun and exercise. In all of my competitive play, and I'm sure that some of you may know what I am talking about, I have always despised the ultra competitors. The guys at the company picnic that are super loud, obnoxious and very quick to point out all of the fouls on the court, and argue 5 minutes about it with the volunteer referee. The city softball team that has no issues arguing a clear call against them, as if just to bully them. But none of them deliberately sabotage their opponents. No one has food poisoned a player to keep them out of a game; nobody slashed the tires of the team van to force a forfeit; nobody joined the team to be the exact instrumentality of the team's defeat.

Whenever I meet the ultra competitors, I try to avoid them as much as possible...that is not my style of game at the moment; I want to have fun. But to hear of betrayals of trust like this, it shocks the conscience. Neither the means nor the ends are justified...this was a mission to hurt someone in their wallet and in their spirit. This is not war, this is a mobile device game with a military theme...it might as well be competitive angry birds.

Those that perpetrated this betrayal of trust, you folks are not heroes, you are tools, liars, and con artists with an underlying sociopath condition. You have spoiled potential friendships in this community by shaking trust, the friendships being the only thing this poorly maintained and glitchy game has going for it. I hope you have fun with your big pixels when this place is cobwebs and tumbleweeds from driving off the high rollers that fund the servers.

Many are wising up too, but that is a topic for another thread.

P.S. To Gree: The medals sucked last time, and they suck this time. Especially as posted rewards in a 25-crate event--love the stats 0/0--nobody knows what kind of units come from earning the medals at intervals, and that adds a layer of confusion for decision making, which was probably the intent. Don't try and improve, because you'll probably make up something even worse and more gold intensive.

[SevenO9]

Amen monsieur Robespierre

[Ysae Kaeps ASU]

Fully agree. Well done.

They need to more closely align their alter-ego ethics with ethical reality.

If the pixilated characters, the pixilated units and the name of the game was different this could just as easily be a game about lolly-pops and pretty things. They ought to give themselves a really good shake and wake up. "This is war" - Please don't insult our intelligence with statements like that. They have not been closer to war than the evening news.

I have just commenced reading a study into online gaming that was only released today. It is a stunning report but will take some time to digest.

The sad aspect of all of this is that the Company may become further tainted by it. The other sad aspect (based on moderators comments) is that it's an acceptable practice; should I have understood them correctly.

That's the concerning part for me as a consumer. Where now is that line in the sand. Is my spend really that safe from this type of behaviour that in RL is tortious. Is online somehow exempt from the law of torts.

[MadAtWorld]

Well written and well reasoned Robespierre. I must say that as a veteran I was offended at many comments that I read that compared this game to actual war and the people who said there are no rules of conduct. There are rules, the punishments for violating them quite dire. Not to mention the mentality of the people who would act in violation of those rules... would these be the type of people you would spend your leisure time with, socialize with? Yes, this is a game, the consequences of treasonous acts and heinous actions are not life altering devastation. But the bigger picture is that when we accept certain behaviors in smaller things, we begin to accept them in larger. I, for one, do not wish to live in a morally bankrupt society.

[Ysae Kaeps ASU]

Well said MAW, you have every right to be offended.

[Urbz]

Great post but none of those guys are gona grow a conscience...

[Agent Orange]

The most eloquent post that I have ever read here Robespierre. Bravo.

[ploop]

WOW. i agree with you on every word

[Vercingetorix]

Thank you for the post. Insightful, polite and direct.

[Greg76]

Excellent thread, best post i have read

[buster67]

That is just about the most eloquent well reasoned post I have read here. Thank you for adding some well needed perspective for some of the correspondants here.

As a veteran myself and having served several tours in conflict zones around the world, the cry there are no rules in war is about as ignorant and crass as it gets. This is just a video game, no more, no less. During my time in conflict zones I was regulated by the Geneva convention and very clear rules of engagement set out in QR1.

The events that lead up to you writing this post are the actions of spoiled children for whom the only thing that matters is getting their own way regardless of the cost to others. This is just a silly little game in the grand scheme of things.

Once again thanks it was a pleasure reading this well balanced piece and please keep up with providing a balanced view of things.

[CDR Shepard]

A friendly bump for a hope to conquer some ignornace. Well put.

[Pick Me]

Agree with all of the comments above supporting this as a phenomenal post by the op

[partcrash]

Actually mentioning "rules" and "third world countries" in the same context can be achieved only by sitting on your couch or on the can tapping a phone.

There are no rules in a war. Actually there are as long as you are winning. Once you start losing or the thought of losing crosses your mind- there are no rules. And don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

[THE RIPPER]

All of them are in the same boat. SUP should understand that this is a video game and not live in such fear. Brutus killed his best friend and was in return, killed. Judas, had one of his best friends killed, and he hung himself due to severe guilt. Benedict Arnold was discovered for being a traitor and was killed for his actions.. So SUP, figure it out on your own.

Yes, to answers from SUP Stinno and SUP Rules, we are aware of the war tactics. It's quite clear and understood. One point that you SUPsters forget is that every nation who has been compromised by such a traitor, has the right and opportunity to execute it's found traitor. We, unfortunately do not have that option. You hide behind GREE's skirt because you can get away with it. You fear facing us on the battlefield, straight up. The SUP nation are like little boys with rocks. You throw them then hide behind mommy's skirt. Poor children.

In response to Gene..... Did I send Corey to GSF? NO. Did Corey interview with Animal to get into GSF on his own? Yes. Did I ask Corey to rogue declare on GSF? NO. Would Corey do that to GSF? NO
Did I put in writing that was putting Corey into GSF to Gene? YES, I fully admit that. It was done for the intent purpose to expose Gene's secret liaison with GSF. In fact, Corey is an officer of GSF. I don't think animal and Shaun would such a traitor to now be an officer of an elite faction. I think you guys should go sell Crazy, somewhere else. Plus anyone listening to you, Gene and Stephen, and believe what you purport to be true, then you have some individuals who should reconsider some education.

And Yes, gene discussed his strategy with Stephen in this newest episode in Cuba with Hot Toddy, aka TKO. Did leadership know in SUP? Yes. Did EVERY Member or officer know? NO. You can't have plausible Deniability if you share too much info to too many people.

In addition, Tyler or aka Brutus not only rogue declared but he did it in coordination with gene and the SUP nation. It was well coordinated and well communicated. Then Brutus dropped his allies to 30, so all of GSF and SUP2 could have a juicy target. Without Brutus, they could never win against our strong defense

Lastly, if you as a MW WAR COMMUNITY and as the SUP nation allow this and accept these actions with a non chalant glance, then you will be subject to the same tactics and the money and time you've spent won't be so glib, as you view it on us. These tactics, if condoned by MW and Sup continue, the game will end and explode. At that point, I think your glib and non chalantness will disappear.

This is not over. I will come back with TKO with a vengeance. We will be a JUGGERNAUGHT dispute your fear and dirty, low handed tactics

THE RIPPER

Sent from my iPad

[buster67]

Actually mentioning "rules" and "third world countries" in the same context can be achieved only by sitting on your couch or on the can tapping a phone.

There are no rules in a war. Actually there are as long as you are winning. Once you start losing or the thought of losing crosses your mind- there are no rules. And don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

There are very clear rules for war as set out in the Geneva convention. The British armed forces also have very clearly defined Rules of engagement. I am sure that the armed forces of most countries that have signed up to the Geneva convention also have clearly defined rules of engagement. There will always be examples of people who feel the need to flout these rules as they seek to further their own, often selfish cause. These people, when caught, are prosecuted as war criminals as they have broken the rules (laws).


As I said before this is just a game, but there are some here for whom it seems to be all consuming and will spout whatever random bile they chose to justify their actions.

[soonerjlc]

Actually mentioning "rules" and "third world countries" in the same context can be achieved only by sitting on your couch or on the can tapping a phone.

There are no rules in a war. Actually there are as long as you are winning. Once you start losing or the thought of losing crosses your mind- there are no rules. And don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

This is a classic example of "the ends justify the means". Yes in every human endeavor there are examples of both the best and the worst people are capable of. Some are willing to do "whatever it takes" to win and this is easier to justify through a keyboard rather than face-to-face.

I don't play in the upper stratus of the game so I do not know what happened or who knew what. I do know we all have a moral compass, or character if you prefer. If your person compass allows you to justify acting in an unethical manner, costing people money and satisfaction, all in the framework of a game, then so,be it.

All I know is this would make you the type of person I would want no where near my family. If a person cannot be trusted in the small things, they cannot be trusted in all things. Hope the "win" was worth it.

[09231982]

For u to say it is not a war is silly the name of the game is modern warfare and the event is a world domination event and act like sup is the only team to ever send a spy into another team would be ridiculous. I am not in sup or am I saying the guys actions were right. What I am saying is dont act all shocked when other teams have done the same thing to avoid sup

[buster67]

For u to say it is not a war is silly the name of the game is modern warfare and the event is a world domination event and act like sup is the only team to ever send a spy into another team would be ridiculous. I am not in sup or am I saying the guys actions were right. What I am saying is dont act all shocked when other teams have done the same thing to avoid sup

Just because the title of the GAME is Modern War doesn't stop it still being a GAME. This game will not give you PTSD on your couch.......lol it might give you RSI through excessive tapping.

[Jaebee]

Very well said Robespierre! And MadAtWorld, I'm with you 100%. As a fellow veteran, I found it absurd what a few were saying in the Bay of Pigs thread in reference to "war" and rules or a lack there of. A whole generation of veterans were ostracized for the perceived violations of the "rules of war". (I.e. Baby killers, etc) and while there probably were some who violated said rules, the blanket statement went on to disparage all the fellow servicemen with a guilt by association mentality in that era. So yes, the are most definitely rules when it comes to war.

This is a war GAME. The word "war" is an adjective describing the type of game...that is all, nothing more.

[JoanneTKO]

Robespierre,

That was a splendid post, thank you. You must have read my “how the lion was slain by a rat” post – my first on this forum. I am glad it triggered your writing such wise words. I was surprised and a little saddened to see CJ locking the "Cuba and the bay of pigs" thread which I had posted my story in, considering it had been viewed by so many who were enjoying a vigorous debate on this game’s ethics. At least CJ did not delete the thread, so it’s still there to read. I hope as many people see this thread with your excellent post – the best written I have seen to date.

I joined Ferr early on as I saw him as a champion of sane, fair and honourable behaviour in this game. Ripper has upheld those principles (question mark over sane maybe!) as our leader in TKO admirably against increasingly dirty tactics from our competitors. Ferr and Ripper are two very different personalities with the same high standards of ethics. I have played this game along side them because I feel safe I am in a team who will always do the right thing. My comrades and fellow officers feel the same I think.

However this last outrage at the hands of SUP and their pawn, SUP RULES has disgusted us so much I doubt many of us will continue. Panzer, Bendover, Spartan Stars, Flynn, Chang, Shiz and others have already added “retired” to their names. I and many others might well be joining them. Without playing alongside Panzer et al this game will be a lot less enjoyable for me.

My main reason for retiring though lies with Gree’s attitude over these vial tactics by SUP. Gree seem to condone them and have replied to my colleagues' numerous tickets calling for fair play with smug “too bad, your problem, not ours” responses. I am not holding my breath for Gree to change their stance on this as it comes right from the top.

I have had one big question about SUP or PUN for a long time now. There must be some bad apples in their faction for all these dirty tactics to take place. I don’t know their names nor do I care. But much more importantly there must be some great people in SUP too, who believe in honourable fair play as we do. Who don’t condone such unpleasant bullying. Who want to enjoy the game and like winning. Who stay in SUP because its the best return on their real money investment to be with the number 1 team as they always get the best prizes and boosts – I don’t blame them for that at all.

There seem to be lots of factions with players showing SUP in their names. I assume they have SUP in their names as a badge of honour and wear it with pride. I would be amazed if they all know what unethical unpleasant tactics they are celebrating by having SUP in their names. I think the vast majority are decent people like we are who have no clue how sick SUP has become.

So here is my question: Are there any honourable decent people in SUP1 and 2 who are as appalled by what their colleagues have done as we are? If so they might consider leaving out of principle and either starting a decent faction or joining another with the right set of principles.

If I and my comrades see some of SUP making a stand against this thuggish deeply unpleasant behaviour and leaving, it just might restore some of our faith in this game. Then all of us together can work with Gree on trying to make this a game with a set of rules which encourage fair, fun play. And all of us together can ignore the few bad apples in SUP left behind to count their shabbily won trophies.

With hope,

JoanneTKO

PS I agree about the medals – I am not even trying this time around – first MW event I won’t complete since I started playing the game

[Archer59]

By accepting "former" SUP members, wouldn't you be opening yourself up to the same betrayal that initiated this thread? I understand not every player in SUP is......as bad as their leadership appears to be, but a top faction sure would be taking a risk bringing them on board...."fool me once....."

[Agent Orange]

At one time there were honourable folks playing the game, many were part of Team Pirate....

Then there was Pirate United Nation who merged with Super something or other and that seems to be where things went off the rails.

The business of a spy in the midst of a team of players is hardly new, in fact the best move I ever saw was when Fabio infiltrated a rival group and pretty much gutted them. This by the way was long before WD and was brilliant.

This on the other hand lacked the finess of that move and just seemed to be a very cowardly way to cheat another group of players out of a fair fight. Oh and I would bet that had someone pulled this on SUP Gree would be fixing the issue instantly.

In terms of using SUP as a prefix, seems to me to now be a tainted badge of shame which now paints all of their members many of whom are really outstanding people I call friends and that is probably the saddest part of this whole sad tale.

[soonerjlc]

The bottom line is that no matter what faction you may or may not be part of, how you play the game reflects who you really are. If you choose to justify a "win at all costs" approach then no amount of discussion will change your views. If you can face the mirror then more power to you.

The larger issue in my view is that the perception of unfair administration of the game has developed. Once the seeds of doubt are sown only clear communication from Gree can correct it. This is what so many players who enjoy the game are crying out for.

[Maddog11]

By accepting "former" SUP members, wouldn't you be opening yourself up to the same betrayal that initiated this thread? I understand not every player in SUP is......as bad as their leadership appears to be, but a top faction sure would be taking a risk bringing them on board...."fool me once....."
We are not even a top faction but we denied a request by a former SUP member just because he had SUP in his name. The trust level has been broken and I will not allow anyone with SUP affiliation in our faction. The actions of a few are hurting all your members

[Agent Orange]

Excellent points soonerjic.

[yan840016765]

[QUOTE=JoanneTKO;1135861]Robespierre,

If I and my comrades see some of SUP making a stand against this thuggish deeply unpleasant behaviour and leaving, it just might restore some of our faith in this game. Then all of us together can work with Gree on trying to make this a game with a set of rules which encourage fair, fun play. And all of us together can ignore the few bad apples in SUP left behind to count their shabbily won trophies.

With hope,

JoanneTKO


I will suggest you to not rely on such unrealistic hope.

[Speed ump]

Joe, you obviously have a selective memory. I have screenshots of how putting player x into gsf went down from both you and Ben. As I have mentioned in the past, player x tends to share with everyone, so I also have emails of parts of his end of the conversation. You did place player x in gsf with the intention of using him to declare, and prepared your team to face gsf. The bad part was that it failed as player x turned on you and did not follow through, which upset you greatly. It was not to expose anyone, than gsf to having to face who you wanted them to face. I also have where it was mentioned you got your man to declare in the Netherlands. You have had forced decalres for at least five wds that I know of. Are you that incompetent, are we that good? If I wanted I could have set it up to face tko in every single battle in that case. We have maneuvered over and over to try to face you heads up, but it's very difficult, as you try your best to avoid us. All we want to do is face the best that's avaible to us in the game. You mentioned in a previous post to face you heads up. Please, lets do. We would be happy to do so. But lets not act the the innocent in all this. You now want to call names for something that you did do, or at least make a very good faith effort to do,and finally did accomplish at least in one case. You have accepted info, emails, etc from different people in our group. Didn't make us happy, but it's just part of the Intel gathering that has become common place in the game. I don't fault you for that. We have had people press the button for us too, including this time. You don't see us coming here crying about it. Was that planned? I'm sure that will be denied, just as your explanation for what player x was doing in gsf. You do seem to have an excuse for everything. Nice and convinenent. The reality is I've heard from you and through others, all the real reasons why ferr/ tko has never won an event. Everyone but you and the trolls know it's nothing more than the obvious. Ferr/ tko has come her since the early days proclaiming their imminent triumphs, their reasons for lack of such, their excuses, and naming us as dark, evil, etc. ferr actually beat us in one battle, our only real loss ever. I could give the reasons for that, but dosnt matter. Ferr won that battle and we did not cry one tear. Very loss for you has had an excuse, something we have done. You would be right in that basic thought at least. We just spend more time, and money, and energy to accomplish our wins. We don't need to wait on new bonuses that we think our opponents won't also be able to purchase, in order to win.

[MadAtWorld]

JoanneTKO,

Sorry your forum days were so short lived. I expect by now you will have been banned. You see, Gree has a policy against mentioning in another thread the contents of a locked one. I should know. Don't worry, you'll likely be allowed to post again. Long after the MW community has moved on to 15 or 20 more things worthy of outrage. Best of luck.

[Jaebee]

Joe, you obviously have a selective memory. I have screenshots of how putting player x into gsf went down from both you and Ben. As I have mentioned in the past, player x tends to share with everyone, so I also have emails of parts of his end of the conversation. You did place player x in gsf with the intention of using him to declare, and prepared your team to face gsf. The bad part was that it failed as player x turned on you and did not follow through, which upset you greatly. It was not to expose anyone, than gsf to having to face who you wanted them to face. I also have where it was mentioned you got your man to declare in the Netherlands. You have had forced decalres for at least five wds that I know of. Are you that incompetent, are we that good? If I wanted I could have set it up to face tko in every single battle in that case. We have maneuvered over and over to try to face you heads up, but it's very difficult, as you try your best to avoid us. All we want to do is face the best that's avaible to us in the game. You mentioned in a previous post to face you heads up. Please, lets do. We would be happy to do so. But lets not act the the innocent in all this. You now want to call names for something that you did do, or at least make a very good faith effort to do,and finally did accomplish at least in one case. You have accepted info, emails, etc from different people in our group. Didn't make us happy, but it's just part of the Intel gathering that has become common place in the game. I don't fault you for that. We have had people press the button for us too, including this time. You don't see us coming here crying about it. Was that planned? I'm sure that will be denied, just as your explanation for what player x was doing in gsf. You do seem to have an excuse for everything. Nice and convinenent. The reality is I've heard from you and through others, all the real reasons why ferr/ tko has never won an event. Everyone but you and the trolls know it's nothing more than the obvious. Ferr/ tko has come her since the early days proclaiming their imminent triumphs, their reasons for lack of such, their excuses, and naming us as dark, evil, etc. ferr actually beat us in one battle, our only real loss ever. I could give the reasons for that, but dosnt matter. Ferr won that battle and we did not cry one tear. Very loss for you has had an excuse, something we have done. You would be right in that basic thought at least. We just spend more time, and money, and energy to accomplish our wins. We don't need to wait on new bonuses that we think our opponents won't also be able to purchase, in order to win.

Really? So how many times have you (SUP1) and SUP2 declared at the same time in hopes of "facing the best that's available in the game"?

[Genen]

Hello everyone,

There are lots of differing opinions on this forum and that's fine. Every person has their own perspective on how the game should be played.
This post isn't about shedding light on anything nor is it about demonizing a rival faction. I simply want to express my personal (and others) viewpoint.
The game is set with certain parameters of what is allowed and what constitutes cheating. SUP does not condone cheating nor hacking, but we do play the game within the confines laid out to the best of our abilities. Some people think hitting boosts is unacceptable behavior. Some people feel raiding someone's cash is unacceptable if the person already has a high IPH, etc.
And some feel that espionage is unacceptable. Fact is, almost all top teams have at some point been penetrated by rival factions. That includes SUP. It's part of the game and to be honest adds an added dimension that makes it more interesting to both infiltrate into factions and to try and spot infiltrators in your own to weed them out. TKO may be crying foul, but they play the game at the same level and attempt to employ the same tactics. I am not saying that we do it because they do it. I am saying we all do it because it's part of the game. Some attempts are effective, some are not. Most teams who get a spy in their midsts and have their plans altered tend to weed him out if possible then brush it off and move on to the next campaign. There is an event every two weeks and the game does not hinge on a single bad outcome.
Propaganda is also a facet of the game. Some may not agree with it but it is a strategy that is also available and can be effective. TKO posting on forums days before event about needing a few 2M point scorers to fill a "few gaps" to push ahead for a big WD is disinformation in an attempt to throw off other top teams. It may work sometimes. And sometimes it may not. Same with the campaign going on now about how horrible it was to have someone in their faction working against them this last WD. They say SUP was scared to meet them head on yet they are upset that through declares they met SUP team after SUP team in battle and lost. What they really wanted to was lay low in points, watch leaderboard to avoid top2 matchups, and then make a big push in final day to take third slot and possible attempt on second. They lost to both sup2 and GSF early on in event without any activity related to espionage having yet started. Everything else is disinformation which is fine bc to their credit they play the game just as well as sup does.
To the point of some saying that this somehow affected peoples real money "wasted" on WD for not getting the prizes. It is a game. Not a commodity. We pay for it for the enjoyment of trying to beat rival factions and develop alliances and friendships with others. Just because someone spends cash on gold does not mean they are supposed to be entitled to a certain prize. I spend cash on golf and when the guy next to me beats my score while using less expensive clubs, I don't go back to the store and scream foul at the guy that sold them to me.
Try to keep in mind that disinformation and propaganda aside on here, many of the people in top teams are friendly on a personal level aside from what they do to each other in the game. They talk, they chat, and in many instances meet in person. That also hold true for TKO and SUP players. Many have spoken on phone and several have met in person. The thing to remember is this is a game. Not personal. For people who can differentiate between the two, it makes things a lot easier to understand. I may get flustered at losing a basketball game against someone, a chess match against a buddy, or lose cash in a poker game against strangers but most don't take it as a personal affront.
I won't be replying to any posts as this is already a very long winded post (my apologies) but I just wanted to express a view that doesn't seem to be on here much but that many people share. They just aren't active on forums.
Want to wish all of you a Happy 2014.

[Speed ump]

Great post genen. I think that puts things in a very clear light. Early in the game pun was criticized for playing as a team, now we all do. I don't criticize tKO for trying to do what they did with gsf, and I considered it part of the game play when I was aware of it. Obviously they did too. I have had a chance to look at a few things now, I noticed some players who threatened real and physical harm to this mole on his wall. I guess they know where he lives, who his girlfriend is, etc. wow. I know they had another mole who hit declare a while back, who was identified, and I have help them to attack as I have seen him. This is fine, you don't really kill someone in a or over a game. We beat up on their bases and avatars. Let's get a grip here. This is a game. It's a war game that is competitive and played by competitive people. Since I've been here I have always seen people wanting to define how other should play. As I have said before, gree determines the rules of this game. I do not, none of us do. As mentioned by genen, some people get upset over hitting boosts.why? They repair in seconds. People used to get mad very early in the game when you hit the same flag, when you hit a girl( don't play a war game of you want to use that one, plus I've found most women in this game really Arnt)A I wonder if the teams that tKO beat along the way, and broke their streaks, feel like tKO cost them real money. Or when tKO, or any faction faces another that's deep in a streak, and fights hard to try to keep their streak hoping, thereby causing the winning team to spend more, if that's the same feeling. Or when a second or third place team spends many millions more than fourth, if they cost them teams above them real money. Right when this event started Ben came to post how they were not driving up costs that we did it to ourselves. This was nothing more than a pr stunt. They split into three factions, so we would have to add the totals for the three to see what they really spent. The players at our level were all trying to achieve at least the 1500 goal, so that sets the min number from the start, then big battles tend to raise it further, among other strategic things. The numbers we spent to achieve first are what they are. It's our choice to do this, and not going to complain about it. Did the false declare we had this time cost us real money? Of course it did. It's part of the price of admission to the game. We know this and have to accept it if we want to achieve the goals we wish. There's easy ways to not cost real money, and we all know what they are.

[JoanneTKO]

I have been in many officer meetings with Ferr and then Ripper in the chair over the last couple of years. I think I missed two and they tend to happen once a month on teamspeak, so we can all hear each other, not on text.
In all those meetings I have never once heard any plan put forward and agreed to by the board to spy on other factions. Period. We never condoned it and never planned it. Period.

Robspierre started an excellent thread which I responded to on topic I thought. My leader had a more impassioned response as is his way.

But please can I confirm one thing – I am told Speed ump is the leader of SUP – the number one guy. If that is the case I am stunned by his posts.

He goes on about something in GSF that I have no idea about (and never heard about as a Ferr and TKO officer) and has little if anything to do with the thread Robspierre started. As the leader of the number one faction in this game surely he should instead publicly admonish the deeply unpleasant tactics that we were victims to at Hot Toddy/ TKO in Cuba. By not doing so he condones these actions and therefore implies he knew all about it and approved it. If that is the case, the rotten apples in SUP start right at the top. That’s a sad and inedible surprise to me. I had assumed these tactics were planned by a rogue cell within SUP’s empire.

Speed ump, you have a real chance to show us all you are a decent guy who deplores the tactics used by SUP RULES in Cuba – please do so.

Thanks for the warning MAW. I was unaware of that policy. My three posts have been fun to write.

And thanks for the friend invite, Robespierre, which I happily accepted.

And thanks for the private message, Michael. If what you say is true in it, I think the whole game will be stunned if it comes out.

Yours with diminished hope,

JoanneTKO

[Speed ump]

Hello troll. Find a grownup to post for you. Not someone hiding behind a newly created account. Looks like someone who has been banned and choses to keep circumventing the rules to achieve his own goals. I see you believe it is ok to ignore rules. I guess you think big companies have no right to a profit either, which has no bearing on anything here. The only big company involved here is the creator of this game. I am absolutely sure you are in no position at all to determine what might be right or what might be wrong. I said I chose not to view tKO use of a mole as cheating. I only pointed out that they have not told the truth about the use of this mole.

[Speed ump]

Joanne, I'd be happy to send the convos that pertain to that discussion, though I think you will find some way to deny their validity. Joe and Ben both know. Maybe they acted alone in this matter, which might very well be based on the conversations I had with them. I'm not going to condem the tactics your team used, or others might use. If you want to hit my boosts, I'm not going to cry about it. If you happene to be the same flag as me, I won't mention that either. It's not against any of the rules that I am aware of, and I refuse to define how others play this game, as you wish to. I find people do that to look for methods of play that help their own positions. I'd say determine what methods help yourself, rather than trying to define how others play, especially when your team has used those same methods themselves.

[Hondo]

I am truly mystified how another faction is to blame for you pushing the attack button speed.

I know from a personal experience that TKO are no angels, but what SUP did was simply bush league. In my opinion you two factions have done as much harm to MW as Gree has. It's so very sad what this game has become. You two deserve each other.

[Ajk]

Popping some popcorn 

Oh, very nice post by the op.

[JoanneTKO]

Dear Speed ump,

Thank you for sparing the time to reply to my little post. Your response clearly says you condone your colleague's disgusting actions in Cuba. Thank you for that clarification.

If you are the number one player in this game and you are this moral bankrupt and blind, I pity those decent people who chose to be your team mates. Schoolyard bullies tend to get what's coming to them in the end.

This should be a game for fun and friendship, which a lot of us pay a lot of money for. I certainly wouldn't want to have friends like you.

Good luck enjoying your game and status.

Humbly,

JoanneTKO

PS perhaps you should reread Robespierrre's post at the start of this thread - if your read it slowly you might learn something

[Speed ump]

So I take that as a no, you're not interested in seeing the proof of your factions actions. Guess you are already aware of it. I do love the way you translate what was said into something different, but I expected no less before I posted here.

[yoda]

I very rarely post on this forum and I almost never read this forum either. But as one of the members of the TKO Hot Toddy team in Cuba I would like to throw out some facts. This will be my first and last post on this subject.
We lost to GSF and SUP2 once each early on Friday. We made the decision to stand down in both cases to try to keep our scoring low early. GSF scored just enough to beat us. SUP2 chose to pile it on. I’m not complaining about the losses or the scores. All 3 teams had strategies they were trying to execute early on. However, on Saturday when we were in the middle of a streak and we were paired with GSF again, we decided to fight. We had 25 people in Hot Toddy. 24 really since our 25th member was the saboteur. I believe GSF had a full 60. I can’t tell you how many people GSF had on at that time. But I can tell you that both teams each scored over 3 million points and Hot Toddy won. Soon after that our saboteur dropped his allies to 20 so that other teams would have a nice juicy target. As mentioned in at least one other post, by the end of Cuba he had racked up over 27k in losses. We did not meet SUP2 again until after the saboteur dropped his allies to 20 so I cannot tell you what the outcome would have been had Hot Toddy met and been able to fight SUP2 again during Cuba without the saboteur to give them a nice juicy target. Win or lose it would have been a fun, adrenaline pumping battle. But due to circumstances beyond Hot Toddy’s control, that battle never happened. Instead what subsequently took place was a mere travesty. Our saboteur ensured we met both SUP2 and SUP1 multiple times after he dropped his allies.
Due to real life issues I was not on as much during this war as I normally am so I did not personally count how many times our saboteur rogue declared. However, one of our officers who took screen shots told me our saboteur rogue declared at least 14 times. I totally understand that many factions have their own horror stories to tell about rogue declarers in their factions. But has anyone else had at least 14 rogue declares in one 73 hour war?
I apologize for the length of this but since this is also the last post I will ever make on this forum I wanted to say a few more things that may not be totally on topic but are more tangential I suppose. And I can already hear THE RIPPER in the background muttering about War and Peace Chapter X. He always tells me I write too much lol.
As some of you already know, I retired from MW right after Cuba. My base is probably dark by now but I actually don’t know since I have not logged on since Cuba. I didn’t even bother to take the time to sell off my base which I gather is the usual practice when one retires.
I have been the operations officer for FE and then TKO for many wars and GREE has worn me down. I cannot justify continuing to spend on a game that malfunctions every single event. Friends have asked me to join them in their factions and play free. But whether I spend or play free, the endless chain of glitched events will continue. It is impossible for me to enjoy an event when I enter it dreading to find out what new glitch will manifest. Every single event I have had at least one TKO member telling me that their wins are not being counted correctly, they are missing prizes, their event won’t load properly, etc. The forum is littered with complaints during and after every event.
This event with our saboteur just epitomized GREE’s contempt for all its’ paying customers who do not fly the SUP banner. So I walk away, thankful to never have to deal with GREE and its’ peculiar form of customer service ever again. I will miss my many friends in MW. I will not miss the game itself.
Congratulations to both the TKO streak teams in Cuba for a fantastic job in the face of tremendous adversity this weekend. We never quit and I thank all of you for trying so hard, continuing to fight, and working together to achieve what our opponents thought was impossible. You are a very special and unique group of men and women. It has been a pleasure to get to know all of you and an honor to battle alongside many of the best and most valiant fighters in all of Modern War.
Congratulations to all other factions who fought with honor in Cuba.
To my friends in other factions I thank you for your friendship, support and advice.
Best wishes to everyone in the MW community.

FE/TKO Panzer - retired

[whammo]

I was saying the same exact thing in my chat...

If these guys are delusional enough to reason their actions are acceptable because there are no rules in war, they need to be handed a pair of boots and a rifle and hit the front lines somewhere.

Spoiled a**holes.

[MadAtWorld]

EGO. There is a lot of that flying around here. I know I am not alone when I say this. I don't care who did it. I don't care who it was done to. The SUPs say it's an acceptable part of the game and within the confines. TKO/Toddy cry foul. Everyone is throwing out accusations of other instances of this happening. And that is we didn't raise a hew and cry then, we are wrong in doing so now.

This is not about SUP, though I am sure it pleases an ego or two to think so. You can interchange the names as you please. _____ did _____ to _____. Look at past posts in the forum and many you can insert and fill those blanks. You're right. This is not the first time this has happened. And perhaps you are right that it is not specifically banned in the rules of the game. But I see it this way. This is the straw that broke the camels back. The MW players, at least the ones who play with any sort of integrity, have grown tired of reading of these backbiting escapades. It has come to the point that we are no longer willing to sit silent and watch as this continues. So no, this is not about SUP and TKO. It is about a line in the sand for all who think that behavior should be allowed to continue.

As for it not being specifically prohibited in the game, I find that a cowards argument. Rules and laws have always been made in response to a need for change. Just because something has yet to be changed does not make it right. I think everyone I have ever talked to has agreed that the declare button should not be available to every member of the faction, including all those accused of exploiting it this way. Just because you can, doesn't make it right. We as a community are saying to Gree, and any who do these sorts of things, that it is time for things to change.

So get over yourselves, all of you. It's not about one team. It's not about one loser or his co-conspirators. It's not about a juvenile finger pointing of who started it. What it IS about... ending it.

[Durt McGurt]

The first time that I ever saw espionage was when Durt sent a guy called CowGirl in our faction.. (aka ryan).. He only stayed in the faction for about a week and then approached our leaders to have a take over of the faction.. I actually had no problems with that as it affected nothing and did not cost us anything...

Unless you were TAR, Joe Army, or Milspec.... Wasn't me.
PM sent.

[09231982]

That fight was a tough loss for us but u guys earned it , but I wish we would have had even half our team on

[Speed ump]

Hate to see you go panzer. You always been great in the few times I've had a chance to speak with you. Good luck in the new year.

[Speed ump]

And ill have to say congrats to tKO for actually coming in third place in points and spending. Just looked at the results for Cuba and added the numbers for their three factions. I'm sure gsf appreciates you letting them take the position on the board without having to spend so much to actually get it, that was a very nice gesture.

[Hupernikomen]

Sad day when we lose players like Panzer.

We all should take notice.

Nothing points to sad state of affairs that his mess has caused more than losing honorable, helpful players like her.

[Agent Orange]

Thanks Speed for giving us your side of the story.

I think based on what I am seeing here both parties are at fault. Why this particular instance has exploded is because all players are frustrated with the lack of a fix of this issue regarding the declaration of war.

SUP is more vilified then normal because quite frankly they did not need to do this in such a malicious manner and because we all realize that you guys are the most powerful players in the game and the likelihood of you being unseated is remote indeed so why the need to do this.

That TKO didn't see it coming, that is their fault.

That Gree has not got their act together and plugged this loophole is beyond a doubt the root of most players frustration.

[Ysae Kaeps ASU]

So I take that as a no, you're not interested in seeing the proof of your factions actions. Guess you are already aware of it. I do love the way you translate what was said into something different, but I expected no less before I posted here.

Speed Ump and Co.

From any understanding of this, you and your group have, through your behaviour, brought MW to new lows. I would have hoped you would have been embarrassed by that to the point of doing something that costs you nothing.

Just apologise for your actions and tell all of us you regret them and nothing like this will ever happen again.

You have been given every opportunity yet you have done nothing but try and qualify it as being OK because someone at some stage in history may have done something remotely similar. Franky I'm not interested in any history.

You have tried to compare this behaviour with raiding and intelligence gathering. Can I remind you that those actions with which you attempt to compare, do not effect RL $ spend during the game.

You have tried to muddy the waters. Throw enough mud and eventually some of it will stick.

And finally you have become condescending.

You have had an opportunity to repair some of the damage you have caused to this community. You have recoiled from doing so.

I can't possibly understand how you could, even for a fleeting moment, consider this action righteous, justified or remotely funny.

Your advantage was to keep them from achieving a stats gain that you assure yourself of getting. That would assist you next 'war'. However, it really matters not what the reason was, it was just wrong.

Now be a 'just' citizen and unreservedly apologise to that team and the broader community and tell us you will never ever permit this behaviour again to save us more retirements and degrading of the game.

A leader would do that and a leader would tell us that it is wrong for anyone in any group in the future to attempt it. That's what someone of 'substance' who considers themselves a real leader would do.

Im not confident you have the moral fibre to do that.

And please remember, this is not war, it's a tap tap game where ppl use real cash.

[DTA-HOG]

I love it when all these high roller threaten to quit when they get "screwed" out of a prize. It makes me wonder how they got so far in life as to throw 10k a month into this game. We all know you aren't going anywhere. See you in WD Chile rich guys. And yes... I am jealous of your stats.

[JoanneTKO]

After playing and paying for this game for so long, I looked at the terms of service for the first time today. Two things stood out as particularly relevant to SUP’s sabotage tactics with us in Cuba, as described in the bay of pigs thread, namely:

You further agree not to: impersonate any person or entity or misrepresent your relationship to or affiliation with a person or entity.

In addition, you agree not to use the Service or any portion of the Service to commit action that Funzio considers, in its sole discretion, to be detrimental in any way to the Service or to any user’s enjoyment of the Service.

The saboteur SUP sent into Hot Toddy for Cuba impersonated himself as a friend, misrepresented himself and was extremely detrimental to our enjoyment of the Service. He managed to stop us getting 50 wins which we would certainly have got if he was not in our faction declaring 14 times against our wishes and dropping his defence from the minimum of 30 million to 13 million. We got 49 wins instead.

We all – like many others – spent a great deal of money chasing medals before Cuba – I spent a few thousand dollars in December on MW – much more than normal or ever before because of the medals. (Sorry – one of the rich ones I guess, DTA Hog!).

SUP’s successful sabotage of our safe plans to get 50 wins meant our investment in the medals before Cuba was meaningless.

We sent in many tickets to Gree during the event asking them to remove SUP RULES from our faction. They chose to ignore our requests. I am told they have removed “freeloaders” from SUP in the past during wars. If that is true, I am stunned. It appears Gree’s “sole discretion” is lacking except where SUP is in need of help. Until Gree takes a more balanced view of its legions of players outside SUP, I fear this game is doomed.

Right now I see no point whatsoever continuing to play and spend when the playing field is so uneven thanks to Gree’s stance on ethics and peculiar treatment of SUP. I have heard of literally hundreds of paying players planning to retire and ask for refunds from Apple in the last couple of days. So I guess my comrades and I are not alone.

Gree might still have time to do the right thing and stop this exodus, but my hope is waining.

[Mighty Min]

I love it when all these high roller threaten to quit when they get "screwed" out of a prize. It makes me wonder how they got so far in life as to throw 10k a month into this game. We all know you aren't going anywhere. See you in WD Chile rich guys. And yes... I am jealous of your stats.

Yes, those 'hi-rollers' whine, but never quit, keep supporting the servers' masters' menu... Some, actually did quit, some wising up even now as another wave of hardly explainable 'novelties' with those BS medals appeared...

SUP = Slaves Under Pressure - as they keep paying enormous amounts of $ for dead pixels to remain #1-2 next to their spiritless faction in boards...

I'm just curious as when GREEd drives all majority remaining outside of that nasty circle spenders, and there is NO chance to catch up in any possible way the stats of those clinging to top - what's the incentive for ANY newly started player to reach the level of spending the chased-out ones used to have, when there's not even remote possibility to catch up in strength?

[DTA-HOG]

I'm having fun with 2mil stats and have no intention of catching the 20mil+ guys. Being the best that I can be is just as rewarding as being #1 in my book. I'm pretty sure my faction feels the same way as #15 was a HUGE victory for us.

[DTA-HOG]

No need to apologize to me bro. I have no problem with you spending as much as you want to. Being on the gold program, I too have threatened to quit over getting screwed over in an event. I'm still here though. It sucks for sure but we all learn from our mistakes. I'll never blow gold again on an event unless I know EXACTLY how much gold will be required to reach the goal.

You do have valid points on your 2 statements in the ToS. I doubt you get very far though, as those statements are very vague and can be swayed at Gree's discretion at a time like this.



After playing and paying for this game for so long, I looked at the terms of service for the first time today. Two things stood out as particularly relevant to SUP’s sabotage tactics with us in Cuba, as described in the bay of pigs thread, namely:

You further agree not to: impersonate any person or entity or misrepresent your relationship to or affiliation with a person or entity.

In addition, you agree not to use the Service or any portion of the Service to commit action that Funzio considers, in its sole discretion, to be detrimental in any way to the Service or to any user’s enjoyment of the Service.

The saboteur SUP sent into Hot Toddy for Cuba impersonated himself as a friend, misrepresented himself and was extremely detrimental to our enjoyment of the Service. He managed to stop us getting 50 wins which we would certainly have got if he was not in our faction declaring 14 times against our wishes and dropping his defence from the minimum of 30 million to 13 million. We got 49 wins instead.

We all – like many others – spent a great deal of money chasing medals before Cuba – I spent a few thousand dollars in December on MW – much more than normal or ever before because of the medals. (Sorry – one of the rich ones I guess, DTA Hog!).

SUP’s successful sabotage of our safe plans to get 50 wins meant our investment in the medals before Cuba was meaningless.

We sent in many tickets to Gree during the event asking them to remove SUP RULES from our faction. They chose to ignore our requests. I am told they have removed “freeloaders” from SUP in the past during wars. If that is true, I am stunned. It appears Gree’s “sole discretion” is lacking except where SUP is in need of help. Until Gree takes a more balanced view of its legions of players outside SUP, I fear this game is doomed.

Right now I see no point whatsoever continuing to play and spend when the playing field is so uneven thanks to Gree’s stance on ethics and peculiar treatment of SUP. I have heard of literally hundreds of paying players planning to retire and ask for refunds from Apple in the last couple of days. So I guess my comrades and I are not alone.

Gree might still have time to do the right thing and stop this exodus, but my hope is waining.

[wwwmaverick]

Modern War espionage has been going on for a long time. Poone Pounder was successful at it, that's the difference. Guys are right in one since, it is a game and not war if you do not like the way it is played you don't have to play.

[Mr.Grumpy]

people have been screwing over their factions since the wars started. now that it's happened to a big spending faction maybe greed will do something about it. they didn't seem to care when it was only happening to the lowly free players.

[FLYNN37]

Great post genen. I think that puts things in a very clear light. Early in the game pun was criticized for playing as a team, now we all do. I don't criticize tKO for trying to do what they did with gsf, and I considered it part of the game play when I was aware of it. Obviously they did too. I have had a chance to look at a few things now, I noticed some players who threatened real and physical harm to this mole on his wall. I guess they know where he lives, who his girlfriend is, etc. wow. I know they had another mole who hit declare a while back, who was identified, and I have help them to attack as I have seen him. This is fine, you don't really kill someone in a or over a game. We beat up on their bases and avatars. Let's get a grip here. This is a game. It's a war game that is competitive and played by competitive people. Since I've been here I have always seen people wanting to define how other should play. As I have said before, gree determines the rules of this game. I do not, none of us do. As mentioned by genen, some people get upset over hitting boosts.why? They repair in seconds. People used to get mad very early in the game when you hit the same flag, when you hit a girl( don't play a war game of you want to use that one, plus I've found most women in this game really Arnt)A I wonder if the teams that tKO beat along the way, and broke their streaks, feel like tKO cost them real money. Or when tKO, or any faction faces another that's deep in a streak, and fights hard to try to keep their streak hoping, thereby causing the winning team to spend more, if that's the same feeling. Or when a second or third place team spends many millions more than fourth, if they cost them teams above them real money. Right when this event started Ben came to post how they were not driving up costs that we did it to ourselves. This was nothing more than a pr stunt. They split into three factions, so we would have to add the totals for the three to see what they really spent. The players at our level were all trying to achieve at least the 1500 goal, so that sets the min number from the start, then big battles tend to raise it further, among other strategic things. The numbers we spent to achieve first are what they are. It's our choice to do this, and not going to complain about it. Did the false declare we had this time cost us real money? Of course it did. It's part of the price of admission to the game. We know this and have to accept it if we want to achieve the goals we wish. There's easy ways to not cost real money, and we all know what they are.



I hadn't intended to enter the debate, but I can't sit quietly as BS oozes from this guy's mouth and he feigns outrage that this mess is spilling over into real life. His mole -- Poone Pounder -- told all of us that he would be vacationing in the Colorado mountains during the WD event and asked if anyone on the team would be in the area. I mentioned that I live in Denver and that my wife and I would be traveling through the mountains that weekend on our way to Aspen. He sent me his cell phone number, his lodging info (fake, as it turns out), and the mountain he was skiing at, and repeatedly asked me to take a little detour and meet him for a drink or a day of skiing. He said he would love to get a local's tour of the area, and really wanted to meet some of his new teammates.

Of course the skiing story was intended primarily to provide cover for the first day of the event, when he was patiently waiting for us to advance in our streaks - "I'm on the plane guys, signing off for a few hours," "Driving over Vail pass, can't access the game," "Internet is terrible in Breckenridge, can't get the game to load to put my boosts back up," etc. But it was also used for a much more sinister purpose; to try and inflict damage outside of the game, i.e. in real life. I'm sure he and the SUP leaders pulling the strings were salivating at the thought of reporting back to the SUP family that, as an added bonus, they managed to trick a TKO member into showing up with his wife to a bar or restaurant in Breckenridge.

Thankfully, our travel plans put us through the area late Saturday, after Mr. Poone had already outed himself. But I must admit that I seriously considered stopping by Breck to buy the guy a drink and welcome him to my state. And it is now painfully obvious that he would have followed this through to its conclusion had the timing not been an issue. Shame on me for being too nice. Lesson learned.

So, yeah, WOW. You sir (and your mole) are a piece of _______. Don't give me the "get a grip, keep it in the game" crap.

[Mr.Grumpy]

there are quite a few very good, intelligent posts in this thread.

flynn, i don't know what to say about your story. i'm speechless. this whole thing is very sad.