Life without fusable epics

[Sifu]

So, I am not a gem spender. That's to set the stage here.

I currently have my big 4 maxed. I have SS+ maxed. I am leveling AoIL+. Dark Prince is a long ways off from what I hear about the drop rate of the Evil Gems. Plus, I can't currently (level 92) solo epic stage, so getting friend usage will be tricky with starting to try to make a real push at EB+ armors.

In thinking about that, I was wondering where my real help would come from in getting that stage "on farm". AoIL will help, I'm sure, but that doesn't seem like a complete answer. Getting to 100 will help, but again, I'm not sure even both of those things combined will allow me to solo epic stage. It seems like there is probably other sources of improvement that are supposed to be coming along about now.

Unfortunately, for a free player, the only thing I see is EB+ with the way the game is currently structured. Getting that kill 43 seems to be just as far away as getting epic on farm. Plus, EB+ is a souce of ...ok armors, I guess, but not really game changers, right?

With epic fusions off the table (at least for now), this is what I'm seeing from the Armors Data spreadsheet:

Blackfrost Raiment
Boilerplate Armor
Clayplate Mantle
Combustion Armor
Guardian's Battlegear
Tempered Battlegear

Again, there are some ok armors there, but nothing to keep a player really interested in.

I should get 2x Sky Guardian+ out of this war. I don't expect to finish any higher in future wars. This should be a help, but again, is this really interesting considering the state of Arena and Guild Wars as it is right now?

Looking at the EB+ armors since I started:

Slimebane Battlegear +
Assassin's Shroud +
Aegis of the Fallen +
Leviathan's Platemail +
Featherblade Battlegear +

Again, if I can start knocking down 43 kills, these will be improvements, but what about long term?

My only point is this; what is supposed to keep a free player playing once you get that first couple of EB+ armors? At that point, you have proven you can do it. If you continue to do it, you will continue to stay where you are relative to the rest of the game. Are we really supposed to look at things and see that we are never going to get any better than that? Yeah, there's stat creep so we would progressively get a little stronger over time. However, we would not have ANY way of increasing our power relative to those with access to epics...and that would be only through gems.

To me, the game just seems much more compelling when we have a chance to get lucky and take a step into that world of epics. There is something to hope for and take a chance at. When you know that door is just plain closed to you, then there is nothing left to achieve and you might as well find some new form of entertainment.

Thoughts?

[-Solo-]

This game is dead to free players. You won't be able to stay competitive and have a good portion of the game locked out. They shunned a good portion of their playerbase and it will only be a matter of time until the players that don't post on forums and are socialable to realize that.

[Necromancers]

I think that Epics should still be fusable, but not for lower levels. I've seen a very good idea on the forums saying that you can only fuse Epics with Legendary + armors. This would make Epics only available to about level 90+, which I find just perfect. I also think that a bigger variety of armors should be added (Legendary), so fusing Earth/Air and Fire/Air gives anything decent. Because honestly, with the ability of fusing Epics gone, Ruby and Cloud King are completely useless except for a collecter's item.

[Daenerys]

I think that Epics should still be fusable, but not for lower levels. I've seen a very good idea on the forums saying that you can only fuse Epics with Legendary + armors. This would make Epics only available to about level 90+, which I find just perfect. I also think that a bigger variety of armors should be added (Legendary), so fusing Earth/Air and Fire/Air gives anything decent. Because honestly, with the ability of fusing Epics gone, Ruby and Cloud King are completely useless except for a collecter's item.

I really like your idea of fusing Legendary+ to get Epic armors. Before the update, you had nothing to lose by fusing reg. legendaries that were useless anyway after crafting the +.

[Necromancers]

I really like your idea of fusing Legendary+ to get Epic armors. Before the update, you had nothing to lose by fusing reg. legendaries that were useless anyway after crafting the +.

Its not actually my idea, I read it somewhere else on the forums ^^;
But indeed, nobody cares about throwing regular EB armors away, since in my opinion they are never worth leveling anyway. Best is always to focus on Big Four + and Bigger Four + if you cannot get to Boss Level 43. And if you could, just level them to level 35, craft the + version, and fuse the regular so you'd have an easy lvl 35 Epic when lucky, along with some very strong Legendaries.

[Sifu]

There was a really good suggestion from ElijaK (may have misspelled that and if so, I'm sorry) in another thread.

They could make a new class of armor that is fusion only as far as how it is obtained. This could fall just under epic armor in stats. Either have no plus or only comes in plus, however you want to see that. This would potentially solve two problems.

1. New class of armor that should be somewhat competitive with epics. Free players and paying players would be able to use these, obviously. The important part is that free players have something to work towards. Assuming your element line-up is favorable, you could win against epics. Edit:basically, it increases the variety and gives free players long term collection goals. Helps bridge the gap in strength from EB+ to epics.

2. This could increase the variety of armors tremendously as quickly as they can design these. This would prevent the Techtonic problem where there are too few possible combinations for some fusions and therefore, epics could go back into the fusion tables and still be rare.

[WinTr]

I'm a "pay if I absolutely need to/if I have money to blow" player. If people are really into this game and want to keep paying it. They will spend the extra 10 - 30 bucks here and there to get them by. I don't see it being a big deal really. But I agree about the fusion of Legendary+ armors to get Epic. That would def. be a nice addition to the game to keep non-paying plays in it.

Just make it so that when people use their fusion stones they're actually worth using.

[Rafa]

Yeah, I brought up the topic that legendary + should be fusable in another topic, didnt get too much attention... hope this topic brings enough attention to this and I assume its a good solution for the problem

[Unresolved]

Yes, I'm a free player as well and life kind of sucks. Luckily, I fused epics(not tect :( ) before the update, so I'm still on par with everyone else. But if I had no epics, the game would basically be unplayable at high tiers. Legendaries don't stand a chance against epics unless you can correctly match them.

[Sifu]

Yes, I'm a free player as well and life kind of sucks. Luckily, I fused epics(not tect :( ) before the update, so I'm still on par with everyone else. But if I had no epics, the game would basically be unplayable at high tiers. Legendaries don't stand a chance against epics unless you can correctly match them.

And given the nature of stat creep, you are grandfathered in for now but over time will lose that equivalence. Granted, stat creep is not at a really high rate just yet, but it does exist and your current epics will be obsolete at some point.

[Unresolved]

And given the nature of stat creep, you are grandfathered in for now but over time will lose that equivalence. Granted, stat creep is not at a really high rate just yet, but it does exist and your current epics will be obsolete at some point.

Yeah, I know. For now, 4 epics is enough to last for a long time in this game. But it sure makes it a lot harder to compete if you're not in a top 10 guild.

[EljayK]

There was a really good suggestion from ElijaK (may have misspelled that and if so, I'm sorry) in another thread.

Close enough.

The general purpose of my idea you're stating correctly. What's missing is that they aren't found in chests. That doesn't stop a pay player from getting them, but it stops lower levels from getting a gear that is more competitive than an EB+ but not as good as an epic. Generally these are meant to fill gaps, (Like fire/wind, earth/wind), in high end versatility. More so than that, it leaves players who are not in top ten guilds feeling like there is a stepping stone somehow.

Let's face it. If you're paying attention to guild wars, you know your guild will not be top 10 without a massive amount of gems. There is a huge gap between top 25 guilds and everyone else. That gap is a mix of team work, coordination, armor, and of course; gems. This idea isn't to put a Ribbon D guild up to bronze, or even give them a fighting chance. It's to make Ribbons A-D more fun to actually be in. Instead of staring at the sun and knowing you'll never get there, you could at least be able to have some faith that your wax wings will get you into the cumulus.

[WinTr]

As of Right now I think I put a total of $60 into the game for gems and I have used some on Crates as well. All of my armors are Legendary and it is pretty impossible from competing at high tiers like you have stated previously. It has not stopped me from playing the game though. My guild finished at #253 (I don't wanna talk about it. We were at #250 with 3 minutes left) ANYWAY! I thought it wasn't too bad I mean we have average players nothing extraordinary like Majestic over there with all of the highest players :P haha But I still think the game is fun and worth playing. I think they will eventually (hopefully) make some events so that players like myself and even underprivileged players be able to obtain an epic armor one way or another.

Maybe start an Ideas Thread in the Forum and whichever ideas are implemented into the game, they can award the creator of the idea an epic armor or something.

Or maybe even impliment a black market sort of idea where you can pay a set price of gems or gold for certain armos.

I'm going to make a few Suggestion threads once I'm actually able to create threads.

[The Pale Rider]

The GREE Glass ceiling is in place. Betting there are a LOT more free players (or guys only dropping a few bucks here or there) than there are big gemmers. Stat creep will cause attrition. I have leveled Blaze, Combustion and Nezz+. Those are still competitive right now. But the last 5 boss armors aren't better. The logical next step for me was to replace my last leg+ with an epic and start leveling it. Now they want me to level armor i don't want for 1 ro 2 keys. That's just too much work for a 1% shot at an epic. Plus my invenotry is full of leg and leg+ now that are useless. I have mats for more too, just dont see the point in crafting them.

Either make a viable path to staying compettive or people will lose interest. It's not that serious now, but I can't see myself being interested in a few weeks if I'm playing daily and no longer able to compete (ie failed to get Tec before the switch).

[jibrish]

No epics here, I do find the game fun though. I am on the path to become more social and looking to getting in a guild that qualifies for epics in guild wars.

[Marco_]

They shunned a good portion of their playerbase and it will only be a matter of time until the players that don't post on forums and are socialable to realize that.
80-90% of the playerbase is probably wearing 2-star armor without realizing big four is better. It's best to assume the vast majority of players is totally clueless about this change.


There was a really good suggestion from ElijaK (may have misspelled that and if so, I'm sorry) in another thread.

They could make a new class of armor that is fusion only as far as how it is obtained. This could fall just under epic armor in stats. Either have no plus or only comes in plus, however you want to see that. This would potentially solve two problems.

If they don't want to restrict chest to plus and fusing to non-plus epics, I don't see why they don't make "epic minus" versions of the epics for fusing...


No epics here, I do find the game fun though. I am on the path to become more social and looking to getting in a guild that qualifies for epics in guild wars.
Per platform only the top 10 guilds got/get an Epic armor. Each guild can have at most 40 members (on Android, Majestic is currently at 39 member slots unlocked; other top 10 guilds lower in the 30s) .
So per platform that's at most 400 players getting an Epic armor in guild wars.
So to become one of those 400, you probably have to already have some Epic armors so you are worth recruiting or be very lucky like me to join/be invited at level 1 to a guild that grows to be a top 10 guild...

[Joshx135]

When I first joined I always thought it was nice how you could get ahead by buying gems, but not completely dominate the game. Taking epics out for fusion has isolated any free players and made it impossible for them to be competitive.

[Lieda]

This game is dead to free players. You won't be able to stay competitive and have a good portion of the game locked out. They shunned a good portion of their playerbase and it will only be a matter of time until the players that don't post on forums and are socialable to realize that.


I couldnt put it better, f2p, if you are not ok with fighting the dark prince silly minions, having your guild being on rank F or worse, or being around rank 1000 at arena, dont even try..., the knights over here fight with credit cards, not with weapons.

[gnolaum]

For my edification is it that Epics are no longer fusable, or that the current epic boss armors are not fusable?

If it's the latter I'd wait for the beast keys quest to finish before going all chicken little. Also I'd wait to see that the beast keys can get you.

[Sifu]

80-90% of the playerbase is probably wearing 2-star armor without realizing big four is better. It's best to assume the vast majority of players is totally clueless about this change.

While this is true, as he said, it's just a matter of time until they eventually level up and aspire to those armors that kick them all over the arena and wars. Some learn slower than others, but never underestimate envy.


If they don't want to restrict chest to plus and fusing to non-plus epics, I don't see why they don't make "epic minus" versions of the epics for fusing...

This is a neat idea too. Who knows what their eventual solutions will be or if they even perceive a "problem" to be fixed. What I do like about his idea is the variety it adds in element coverages, etc. This idea wouldn't accomplish that as easily. However, your idea would also require much less development since the armors are already in the game. Tweak the stats and decide if they want a new art twist on it and these are ready to go.


Per platform only the top 10 guilds got/get an Epic armor. Each guild can have at most 40 members (on Android, Majestic is currently at 39 member slots unlocked; other top 10 guilds lower in the 30s) .
So per platform that's at most 400 players getting an Epic armor in guild wars.
So to become one of those 400, you probably have to already have some Epic armors so you are worth recruiting or be very lucky like me to join/be invited at level 1 to a guild that grows to be a top 10 guild...

Also, the top IOS guild got about over 10,000,000 points I believe. Top Android was over 5,000,000. That means you should be able to pull probably 200,000 points yourself in a war before you try to apply to one of them. For reference, my entire guild did about 250,000 points in total in this war.

[gnolaum]

Also, the top IOS guild got about over 10,000,000 points I believe. Top Android was over 5,000,000. That means you should be able to pull probably 200,000 points yourself in a war before you try to apply to one of them. For reference, my entire guild did about 250,000 points in total in this war.

The top guild did 5m, but the 10th guild did ~1.2M I believe? This works out to ~40k/person (assuming 30 person guild) which is possible with no or minimal gems. I know because I did it.

[Lieda]

The top guild did 5m, but the 10th guild did ~1.2M I believe? This works out to ~40k/person (assuming 30 person guild) which is possible with no or minimal gems. I know because I did it.

Thats a too optimistic prediction, in my honest opinion.

[Sifu]

The top guild did 5m, but the 10th guild did ~1.2M I believe? This works out to ~40k/person (assuming 30 person guild) which is possible with no or minimal gems. I know because I did it.


Thats a too optimistic prediction, in my honest opinion.

I believe Lieda is right on this. That guild that did 1.2 million? Yeah, they now have a mark. They see 5 million now as the minimum they will need to win the next one. They are looking for that guy who did 200,000 in some #15-25 guild and is looking to improve guilds. The top players will coalesce into top guilds.

[The Pale Rider]

40K is only possible with minimal gems if someone else is hitting the sentinel and the guardians for you. We had 45 battles in the GW. We won 36 and scored 586,650 points or 13,000 per war). Maybe we could've sqeezed in 5 more, but if you aren't using gems and you go right into the next war you'll likely lose. You need some time to recover blocks (1:40 for 4 blocks).

Assuming you fight in 2/3 of your guilds battles, i.e. 30. And you get 3 blocks on opposing players (1 on guardian/sentinel) then you score around 800 per battle. Times 30 battles that's 24,000 points.

That's a very high mark for an average even if guild is active. Only 10 players hit that mark in my guild. Another 6 were fairly close (figure an average of 16,000), the rest were busy this weekend and participated when they could (figure an average of 8000 points). The rest of the points are due to win bonuses.

40K without gems requires no sleep, no misses and no guardians/sentinels. Not realistic.

[Marco_]

The top guild did 5m, but the 10th guild did ~1.2M I believe? This works out to ~40k/person (assuming 30 person guild) which is possible with no or minimal gems. I know because I did it.
Myself I got something like 28-29K points, including a bunch of scouting, since I have some of the weaker armors in Majestic (no epics until the end of the war... ;) ) .
IIRC I use 90 gems to reach that plus lots of playtime.
Next guild war, I'll have the 12 gems I had left + 70 gems in winnings + whatever I get from arena/arena quests/epic boss/keys to play with.

@The Pale Rider: oh boy, Majestic fought in 64 battles IIRC. Because of queue times up to 20 minutes, we couldn't get closer to the theoretical maximum of 71 battles. We've got people in America, Europe and Asia/Oceania, which allowed us to battle all day/night long.
For myself as one of the weaker Majestic members, it was a balancing act of conserving my energy if opponents were too strong for me to consistently beat or giving too few points, while at the same time making sure I didn't waste energy by maxing out. And then spending some of my prescious few gems if there were easier opponents giving good points scores.

[Bluntman]

40K without gems requires no sleep, no misses and no guardians/sentinels. Not realistic.

I have to agree with this, i used only a few gems and played as much as i could sleeping only 4-6 hours a night and only scored 30,000 pts. I might have scored a little more if someone else took out the sentinels but i couldn't see that number being much higher without gems

[template]

I think it has to be acknowledged first that this is a game from which Iugo and Gree need to make money. No money = no game. It may be "free", F2P games always have some form of paywall that makes you spend in order to progress. This is not a charity. So any assertion that all players should have equal access to all parts of the game is a non-starter.

However, I do agree that epics not being fuseable is a silly business decision. There needs to be enough of a hook in the game to persuade free players to stay on so that there is sufficient critical mass to support (i) the gem spenders by keeping them interested in playing and (ii) to entice new players to join, some of which will also become gem spenders.

What I would think is that the manner in which epics need to be fused needs to be tweaked. Currently, before the change, it seems to be the consensus that it was really just a question of working out probabilities in terms of one tier up and down the levels of the armors you were fusing (so 2 x 4* = 3-5* armor) and the element combinations.

What if it was changed so that the probability was skewed towards maintaining the current * level with a probability of a downgrade and an upgrade? The exact % of course can be adjusted so that it's not a random crapshoot (which defeats the purpose) but so that epics don't just stream out of fusions. The suggestion that only + armors can result in epics is also a good one I think, as well as the possible inclusion of - armors.

Another possible way of expanding the pool of available armors is to make all EB armors in the past fuseable. The moment that kicks in, all probability goes out the window and the chance of fusing an epic is substantially smaller. Not ridiculously small but definitely not the 1 in 2 chance you could get before the nerf.

Free players do need a hook to keep playing and gear progression is one of those ways.

[Marco_]

I think it has to be acknowledged first that this is a game from which Iugo and Gree need to make money. No money = no game. It may be "free", F2P games always have some form of paywall that makes you spend in order to progress. This is not a charity. So any assertion that all players should have equal access to all parts of the game is a non-starter.
No. your assumption is wrong.
League of Legends is a PC F2P game.
What can you get with real money in it:
- buy champions quicker: great, now you have more champions you have to invest more playtime into to learn to play them well
- buy rune pages quicker: well, the runes to fill them you can only earn through playtime currency...
- boosts to get your player to max level quicker: gimping your time to learn how to play better while leveling...
- boosts to get a bit more playtime currency: well, that one helps a bit, but is horribly cost inefficient unless you play 4+ hours/day
- skins: the big money maker/cash cow! Purely cosmetic...
So money gets you pretty skins and more things more quickly to be mediocre with if you aren't a super skilled player. Not very p2w...

Capes in KnD unfortunately don't really have that "wow, got to buy it" factor and real skins probably would make things too unclear.

edit: anyway, just pointing out that p2w is a choice by Gree and certainly not the only profitable f2p model.

[Justx]

Nah never mind.

[busteroaf]

No. your assumption is wrong.
League of Legends is a PC F2P game.


Nah never mind.

My thoughts exactly.

LoL is clearly not the same game as KnD, so please stop referring back to what $1000 there will get you vs. $1000 here.

They are two completely different games. Both "f2p"... but still, without generating money from sales, they have no funding, thus, no game, for either game. Maybe the money concept is indeed reversed, where seasoned players know they don't have to spend money to get the newest toon to play, but the newbies think that "oh, its new, it must be the best" So do the newest people invest all the money, then realize they goofed and stop spending? I have no idea. I've tried it, but haven't played enough to really know. But, I'm also pretty sure that a lot of those "extras" are purchasable with only the in-game currency, so if you want to LOOK like everyone else, sure, you can. But if you want to stand out and have that sweet "fire wolf" skin or the slightly different angel looking toon, then pay up sucker. And since the game is still around, it looks like there are indeed enough suckers to support it.

Which brings me to my main point: There is always "something" that one person can have if they pay the money for it, that someone else can't have just through playing the f2p version. Skins, Epic Armors, the newest Raid content, boosts to level toons faster, whatever it is. There is always something for sale that other people want. Here it happens to be pretty much the best armors available. Granted, here it is also not guaranteed you'll get anything even after spending $1000, but that is the way this game is designed. And it isn't the only one like it.

[Cind3r]

without the fusion of epics what am I meant to do with all of these 4 stars? Gree needs to implement new 4 stars at the same time as epics so the 4 stars can be fused giving the free to play players something to keep up. In addition to the epic boss.

Personally I think the way deactivating epic fusion wa implemented was a big kick to the teeth for all players. If Gree didn't mean for epics to be fusable in the first place they should have announced it in patch notes, something to the tune of "Fixed fusion bug where epic armour was fusable" not waiting till we had a sure thing with cloud and troll then just pulling the plug.

[busteroaf]

Personally I think the way deactivating epic fusion wa implemented was a big kick to the teeth for all players. If Gree didn't mean for epics to be fusable in the first place they should have announced it in patch notes, something to the tune of "Fixed fusion bug where epic armour was fusable" not waiting till we had a sure thing with cloud and troll then just pulling the plug.

If they put it in patch notes, would it have made it any less of a kick in the teeth to those who didn't fuse right away? All those who waited so they could make sure they got their keys from the beast event, (since TWO said "keep both to be sure") and then planned to fuse after? No. So patch notes don't help anyone out in this case.

What most people really wanted, was a pre-notification of when they were taking it away, so they could roll the dice and decide "will the keys be worth it or do I go for the assumed sure thing and fuse for an epic right now?" That and try fusing for all the other epics before the deadline. Just admit it. People are sour that they missed a chance to fuse. You didn't jump when you had the chance. Nobody's fault but their own. Mine included.

[Ithiliond]

I missed the chance to fuse 'cause of the keys, and of lack of information about these changes. The whole thing of letting us wait to fuse troll and corvus until the day they patched, sounds like it was made on purpose, and that's what is disturbing me the more.
I have another mono earth legendary armor (from chests) so it wasn't even a chance, i would have surely got it if only i had known the trick.

Still I think the solution is they should make some other legendaries craftables, like AotD, and keep epic fusing available.

[template]

No. your assumption is wrong.
League of Legends is a PC F2P game.
What can you get with real money in it:
- buy champions quicker: great, now you have more champions you have to invest more playtime into to learn to play them well
- buy rune pages quicker: well, the runes to fill them you can only earn through playtime currency...
- boosts to get your player to max level quicker: gimping your time to learn how to play better while leveling...
- boosts to get a bit more playtime currency: well, that one helps a bit, but is horribly cost inefficient unless you play 4+ hours/day
- skins: the big money maker/cash cow! Purely cosmetic...
So money gets you pretty skins and more things more quickly to be mediocre with if you aren't a super skilled player. Not very p2w...

Capes in KnD unfortunately don't really have that "wow, got to buy it" factor and real skins probably would make things too unclear.

edit: anyway, just pointing out that p2w is a choice by Gree and certainly not the only profitable f2p model.

I think you misunderstand how different K&D is from LOL. LOL has a player base in the millions, I doubt very much K&D does. If you see some studies/surveys done on the F2P model (there are some on TouchArcade), only about 10% of players will pay in a F2P game. This 10% is essentially supporting the other 90%. For a game like LOL, where one number I've seen is 32 million users and 12 million online daily, your revenue spenders are in the millions and that's what supports the game.

In addition, there are also complaints about the LOL model because it requires an insane amount of grinding to be truly competitive because it's not just purely skill-based.

What I'm trying to say is that I agree there isn't just one model but using LOL as the base approach would, in my view, fail very badly for a game like K&D simply because of lack of that critical mass.

But this is a digression from the issue at hand, which is how epics should be made available in some form or fashion to the entire player base, just that it needs to be very carefully moderated in terms of numbers. The danger of power creep is exceedingly high if epics are everywhere but there needs to be some way of making them available to free players as opposed to just from DPC.

[-Solo-]

That's a bad excuse. LoL has had the same pay model, besides the increase in skin price tiers, ever since it was a new and upcoming game. You think it always had millions of people playing? Gree just chose to go to a P2win route while eliminating people that play for free to work hard and compete, which LoL still lets you do to this day.

[paganizer]

Well if we look at the amount of new armors being introduced including the Epics. When I started working on the bigger armors a couple months back, the 1900+ armors were very viable. Now after the Epics we are in the 3000+ range. Next month will introduce 4000+ and I think within 2-3 months Epics are in the 5000 range. You won't even have to care about elements, because those Epics will just bruteforce everything in the 2000-2400 range where we have all the good fusable legendary armors. I think it's safe to say that Gree is milking this cashcow to the extreme (and now effectively shutting out all non gemspenders). All changes point towards milking this cash cow rather than producing a better game.
- take away free gem offers
- introduce vastly improved new armors (epics), which are only achievable through chests or being in a top guild (requires spending tons of gems). (no more fusing epics).
- Guildwars is a major cashcow aswell. Ask the top players how much they spent in RL cash to get that top armor.. it's crazy and it's 100s maybe even in the 1000 of euros/dollars for a new epic armor.

Since I started playing I can't come up with a single improvement to the game that didn't focus on the players investing gems. Personally i'm done investing in gree. It's just too much.

[Nero rage]

In my opinion soon a good ammount of free players is goin to stop playin cause of this, it's ok to have only spenders getting the real top armors (plus epics) and nonspenders getting the normal epics, but with this patch nonspenders have to work only on legendaries and when u have 3 legendaries is really hard to face 3 epics (you can win only with 3 element advantages) it's pretty demoralizing

[busteroaf]

That's a bad excuse. LoL has had the same pay model, besides the increase in skin price tiers, ever since it was a new and upcoming game. You think it always had millions of people playing? Gree just chose to go to a P2win route while eliminating people that play for free to work hard and compete, which LoL still lets you do to this day.

So, based on the oh so awesome LOL model, how would you tailor the KnD model to fit it? What would you change to Gree would have the player base be totally f2p, while still generating money for them. Please tell me. Hell, tell Gree. I'm sure they'd love to go to another model that works. Oh wait, their model clearly works too, and as stated before, isn't the only one of its kind.

I still think you are missing the point. They are two totally different games, played totally different ways. You never directly contact someone else in this game. Sure, you can battle them in arena or guild wars, but it is not a true 1v1 or 3v3 pvp. LOL is based on skill more so than random numbers from AI controlled players in pvp battles. LOL you have bots sure, but when you actually set it to fight against another person, there is someone playing the toon. Also, there aren't any "hey, I can shoot you from over here while my little minions are taking you down" armors in KnD either... I digress.

They are two totally different games, and as such, you can't compare them. So please stop with the "LOL f2p model is superior".

[Ithiliond]

So, based on the oh so awesome LOL model, how would you tailor the KnD model to fit it? What would you change to Gree would have the player base be totally f2p, while still generating money for them. Please tell me. Hell, tell them. I'm sure they'd love to go to another model that works. Oh wait, their model clearly works too, and as stated before, isn't the only one of its kind.

I still think you are missing the point. They are two totally different games, played totally different ways. You never directly contact someone else in this game. Sure, you can battle them in arena or guild wars, but it is not a true 1v1 or 3v3 pvp. LOL is based on skill more so than random numbers from AI controlled players in pvp battles. LOL you have bots sure, but when you actually set it to fight against another person, there is someone playing the toon. I digress.

They are two totally different games, and as such, you can't compare them. So please stop with the "LOL model is superior, f2p ftw"...

The "keeping f2p on the game" strategy is the difference that "makes the difference". Lol is having success because there are a lot of players playing that game, and when the game is funny for someone, he probably will try to convince others to play together (which is different from saying: "download this app and insert my friend code"). This mechanism leads to a better spread of the game among potential players, and eventually a f2p can bring a gembuyer to the game.

It is obvious that paying should give you some advantage (and that's not granted in this game, since chests can easily give you useless armor, or the equivalent of 25000 and a fusion stone for enhancing your armors), but there must be a balance that makes the game funny and viable even for non payng players.
Otherwise when a new player realizes that he cannot aim even to semi-competitive play without paying, he'll probably leave the game, while instead he could have considered buying a little amount of gems, once in a while, after spending some time in the game.

I always thaught that legendaries+ and epic+ armor were for buyers, while f2p could only aim to normal epics, which seems right to me. The new mono legendary issue could be solved increasing the amount of legendary armor fuseable, but i find no reason to remove epic fusing. If epic fusing is not viable, then there should be a way for high level players to farm decent amounts of free gems, to give 'em a chance, some day, to get an epic or two with the chests.

[busteroaf]

There is the option to farm gems. Its called the "currently missing but soon to be brought back free gems" option. If you aren't utilizing it, that is your fault. And if people payed attention, there are still plenty of armors that can be fused for. Then go and get a good element match and guess what, you can still compete.

That shiny new Tect that people are *****ing about because they missed out on fusing? The new Guild War reward devours that sh!t for breakfast and then some. So sure, bring fusing back. Give everyone a free Tect or Blaze. The top 10 guilds will still eat you alive. That and anyone with a solid Spirit or Water armor. Does that give you the warm and fuzzies on the inside? I hope so.

[Sakino]

Gree simply found a way to keep spending players here and kick out the ones who dont play. Peoples play for a while, making the game playable for the spenders, then they ragequit freeing space in gree servers.

[Ithiliond]

Gree simply found a way to keep spending players here and kick out the ones who dont play. Peoples play for a while, making the game playable for the spenders, then they ragequit freeing space in gree servers.

That logic won't work on long term

[paganizer]

There is the option to farm gems. Its called the "currently missing but soon to be brought back free gems" option. If you aren't utilizing it, that is your fault. And if people payed attention, there are still plenty of armors that can be fused for. Then go and get a good element match and guess what, you can still compete.

That shiny new Tect that people are *****ing about because they missed out on fusing? The new Guild War reward devours that sh!t for breakfast and then some. So sure, bring fusing back. Give everyone a free Tect or Blaze. The top 10 guilds will still eat you alive. That and anyone with a solid Spirit or Water armor. Does that give you the warm and fuzzies on the inside? I hope so.

No **** Sherlock. Of course the mono Epics (and the older armors) will soon be **** with the insane inflation of stats from new Epics. Since Gree decided to also block Epics from fusing, most are left with the best non plus legendary in the 1900-2400 range. So if blazebourne and tectonic (according to your wise words) are "eaten for breakfast", what do you think the old legendaries are?

The only difference between players (or guilds) in this game, is who is stupid enough to invest the most money in gems. GJ! you won because you spend more $ than the other guy. This game is just an easy way for Gree to rake in cash. A shame cause the game has potential.

[Zyntree]

It would seem we have quite the pistsing match going on in this thread... not that I'm taking sides :). It is amusing to read. It would seem to me that a simple point is the most telling in the lack of fusible epics (not which will be nerfed, or what's the best model). Free players who weren't lucky enough to fuse an epic (and I tried before the patch) now have no way of actually competing.

No legendary + or otherwise is a match for the epics (sure there is elemental advantage, but that is more luck in putting your knight in the right place than otherwise). Perhaps GREE has some plan to make epics fusible later, and I hope so, but as it is, I'm done buying gems. I have purchased them occasionally, but with no shot at actually competing, I'm not going to waste my time. Pay to compete is not my idea of fun. It's like was said about the guild wars... pay to win. Where's the sport in that?

[possum]

The guilds are a blessing and a curse.

They're doing the same thing here that they did in all of their games, pitting the few at the top against each other and more or less neglecting everything else.

The repercussions are insane inflation at the top. Once this starts, there's no turning back and that level of inflation has to keep rising to stupid levels as we've seen in their other games. It eventually reaches a point where the gap becomes untenable; new players are shutout, the game stops growing and they become even more reliant on the top few who spend stupid amounts, than the bottom many who might spend less. It's a vicious cycle that's both dangerous as it tends to alienate newer players and the entire house of cards can crumble if those few at the top walk. They become addicted to each other and nothing else matters.

Is it wise? Not in my opinion.

The F2P model was always about time versus money and here, that's not the case at all when it comes to Gree games.

Should guaranteed epics be allowed for the f2p or low spender? I don't agree, but there should be a chance element to keep those bottom feeders around, for you need something to keep a large player base around as much as possible.

Giving these people the chance, albeit small as it may be, lets these freebies have something to look forward to and keeps them both engaged and around long enough where they may become those future whales. Only a small percentage will do this, but the smaller the bottom, the smaller that percentage becomes.

And frankly, the vain at the top will spend no matter what even if you put a fuseable epic as the top prize. They may moan and whine, threaten not to spend, but watch what happens...

In any case, flooding the game with epics wouldn't matter as people forget the time element. It will be months before that armor is actually useable to the casual player, while the hardcore spenders will quickly level them up. However, what it does buy you is time and an engaged and healthy player base.

So yes, I believe epics and in fact most of the armor, should be fuseable at some point in the game.

[Sifu]

There is the option to farm gems. Its called the "currently missing but soon to be brought back free gems" option. If you aren't utilizing it, that is your fault. And if people payed attention, there are still plenty of armors that can be fused for. Then go and get a good element match and guess what, you can still compete.

Free gems, lolz. I'm sorry, but that's kinda dishonest. I get about 8 gems a month off of that thing and I hit the offers AT LEAST 20 times a day. Sure, I should get one shot at an epic per 4 months. We all know what the rate of epics is in those chests too, lol. THAT'S compelling. I started this thread with a list of basically the best armors a free player can get as long as epics are not fusable. That is NOT a list of armors that allow you to feel competitive and it isn't a long one either. That is a list of armors that you MIGHT luck into just the right order of knights and beat epics pretty infrequently.

Beating long odds to get an epic and be more competitive with some consistency is MUCH more compelling than beating long odds only occasionally based on knight order. Two entirely different stories there.


That shiny new Tect that people are *****ing about because they missed out on fusing? The new Guild War reward devours that sh!t for breakfast and then some. So sure, bring fusing back. Give everyone a free Tect or Blaze. The top 10 guilds will still eat you alive. That and anyone with a solid Spirit or Water armor. Does that give you the warm and fuzzies on the inside? I hope so.

See, this shows that you are not attempting to listen to the point of this thread. There are players upset about that particular one, yes. It is a little annoying to hear that complained about so often recently. However, that has not been the direction of this thread in general and wasn't how it started. Never once did I mention Techtonic. You won't find a single thread where I have mentioned I wanted it, etc. because I don't want it. I don't particularly like that one. I found it to be a serious problem that it was so close to guaranteed. I supported ElijayK's suggestion to dilute the fusion tables with more non-epic armors and help prevent that. I STILL think the chance needs to be there, rare as it used to be, that you can luck into one as a free player. This is about the ONLY thing to keep a free player around once they reach the ability to get 43 kills. Paying players can scream all they want about they support the game. Without the f2p playerbase, the game likely wouldn't have the critical mass of players to continue either. Like it or not, f2p players are important too.

I don't think anyone making serious posts in this thread is debating that p2p players should not have an advantage. However, if a f2p player's ONLY hope is to be arena fodder for the paying players, THAT'S NOT FUN and they won't stay. They don't have to have the same chance as a p2p player, but they have to have SOME kind of chance or there is nothing to play for. This game is not entertaining to play because of mechanics. There are no mechanics. There is no "skill". This is a chance based game that is centered on armor progression. If you draw a hard ceiling at 4* + for any class of player, the gap is too large and the most they will play is to that ceiling. After they have reached that point, they might as well leave because there is nothing else to accomplish.

[-Solo-]

No one is saying Gree has to follow the LoL formula. People are bringing up facts that there are games that you can have a business model without alienating the F2P players. A game without F2P players that strive to be competitive will die off quick, especially one without a entry fee.

[Sportsgrunt]

Not having any Epic armor hurt a lot of players during guild war. Boo Gree !!!!

[template]

The F2P model was always about time versus money and here, that's not the case at all when it comes to Gree games.


Um, really don't think this is true. F2P is about allowing access to parts of the game for those who don't want to spend but it doesn't necessarily mean all parts are accessible. If you think about PC games that went F2P, a lot of them actually have some form of bottleneck that requires payments to open it up (such as buying inventory slots, access to certain areas, etc). By and large, the true F2P games are those that charged an upfront fee at the outset (think LOTR, Star Wars) and the game subsequently went F2P because of a declining player base.

Having said that, I do agree that epics should be available in some fashion and with a reduced chance, just as the hook to keep the "true" F2P players playing.

[The Pale Rider]

The steady incremental stat increases kept it interesting and followed the pace of active play (by the time you finished leveling it, the new one was better than your #3). So to stay competitive you just worked the boss and leveled daily. Getting to plus versions and then leveling the plus takes a week.

Now you've got a giant power disparity with the epics. Which in and of itself is fine (had they been unfusable). But they were fusable by anybody with 2 basic leg monos. So there are 1000s of epics in the hands of low level players who can't even get a plus leg yet.

This royally pissed off the level 100+ player with all leg+ and/or an epic or unfusable leg (aegis). Sure most of those guys haven't leveled them yet, but they will and the progression will be lost. Solutions are obvious. GREE won't retract the epics, so they need to push up the leg+ and provide a path for high level players to get Epic as well.

Also this is just a window of time. A given number of low level players got super powerful armor before they should've Been able to (apart from buying lots of chests). But the window closed and in a few weeks those guys will be at the level where they'd be at the top anyway. The issue is avoiding plateauing active players for long periods.

Where's my next competitive armor coming from? Hope GREEs answer isn't a chest cause that's when I'll stop being active. I'll play with what I have but I won't buy armor. I doubt I'm alone. Somebody above estimated that 10% p2p, maybe but the price is very high here for an epic: $35 for 10% shot, $70 for 25%. No chance 10% of players are spending that much regularly. Just going by top guilds were talking about a few thousand players. GREE should be focused on enticing the other 200,000 to pay $10.

[template]

Where's my next competitive armor coming from? Hope GREEs answer isn't a chest cause that's when I'll stop being active. I'll play with what I have but I won't buy armor. I doubt I'm alone. Somebody above three out that 10% p2p, maybe but the price is very high here $35 for 10% shot, $70 for 25%. No chance 10% of players are spending that much regularly. Just going by top guilds were talking about a few thousand players. GREE should be focused on enticing the other 200,000 to pay $10.

The problem here is that, statistically speaking, the other 200,000 will not pay $10. If this was guaranteed, K&D would go the way of the current WOW, which is easy loot everywhere, to cater for casual players. They pay $15 a month as a monthly subscription though. Wanna bet if K&D went monthly, the player base would disappear?

[busteroaf]

Should guaranteed epics be allowed for the f2p or low spender? I don't agree, but there should be a chance element to keep those bottom feeders around, for you need something to keep a large player base around as much as possible.

Giving these people the chance, albeit small as it may be, lets these freebies have something to look forward to and keeps them both engaged and around long enough where they may become those future whales. Only a small percentage will do this, but the smaller the bottom, the smaller that percentage becomes.

I guess the whole Beast Brawl event where you get free keys for a upcoming chest, isn't considered to be a chance in your eyes right? What is it then?


Free gems, lolz. I'm sorry, but that's kinda dishonest. I get about 8 gems a month off of that thing and I hit the offers AT LEAST 20 times a day. Sure, I should get one shot at an epic per 4 months. We all know what the rate of epics is in those chests too, lol. THAT'S compelling.

See above. Sorry if you don't get gems. I got 25 or so right before the button went away. Guess I'm 3 months ahead of you by your schedule.


This game is not entertaining to play because of mechanics. There are no mechanics. There is no "skill". This is a chance based game that is centered on armor progression. If you draw a hard ceiling at 4* + for any class of player, the gap is too large and the most they will play is to that ceiling. After they have reached that point, they might as well leave because there is nothing else to accomplish.

If its not entertaining, why do you even play? I don't know about you, but I have fun. And maybe I lucked out with being on top of the impending "gap" but that never stopped me in other games either. And they had a ceiling too. But its what you make of it. If you aren't having fun, by all means, stop playing. I know plenty of people who are giving up on the game already. I also know plenty who are just getting ramped up and a chomping at the bit for the next guild war. To each his own.

So, what was this thread about again?

[busteroaf]

The problem here is that, statistically speaking, the other 200,000 will not pay $10. If this was guaranteed, K&D would go the way of the current WOW, which is easy loot everywhere, to cater for casual players. They pay $15 a month as a monthly subscription though. Wanna bet if K&D went monthly, the player base would disappear?

True story.

Gree would also need to make a separate event for the non-casual players, you know, the hardcore people... an Epic Epic Boss or something similar.

But then you'd have the casuals complaining that the event is too hard for them and they need to make it easier so they can get the rewards from it too.

[Sifu]

If its not entertaining, why do you even play? I don't know about you, but I have fun. And maybe I lucked out with being on top of the impending "gap" but that never stopped me in other games either. And they had a ceiling too. But its what you make of it. If you aren't having fun, by all means, stop playing. I know plenty of people who are giving up on the game already. I also know plenty who are just getting ramped up and a chomping at the bit for the next guild war. To each his own.

So, what was this thread about again?

There are studies about interactive gamers that help with game design. The only two really drawn to this type of game are going to be the Killers and the Achievers. I'm sure you still have some socialisers here, but given the very limited chat, not many who primarily fit that style. Explorers have almost nothing to do in this game.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm

I, like a very large part of the gaming community, am an achiever. For now, I still have room to achieve. There are still armors that are improvements for me. I still have armors to level, and most importantly, I can still increase my strength RELATIVE to others in the game. Once I can get to 43 kills and possibly max the first one or two of those, there are no more achievements without some way to try to obtain epics. The only thing left to do is to grind to maintain.

You see, it's not about getting them frequently. An achiever doesn't mind the grind. It's about that chance to actually achieve more. Chests are SO low chance, any rational person doesn't view 1-5 keys like the beast key event as a real chance. That has to be a part of more. If I have a small chance with those, and a small chance with fusion and a small chance here or there...maybe I continue to try to achieve. Sure, it's still an overall low chance. Definitely lower than spenders. Many of those can't even get me a +. Spenders still have a definite advantage.

However, when you just close that door, and there is no rational chance that I can achieve more, then I'm done...as are most achievers. As the game stands right this moment, it is just a matter of time before f2p achievers, which is a huge part of the playerbase, realize where that ceiling is. Some will want to stop as soon as they realize how low that ceiling is. Others, like me, will want to reach that ceiling before stopping. I'm hoping that the ceiling is changed before I reach that point.

For me, the game gives me a chance to game for achievement in bite-sized chunks and not 20+ hours of play a week like WoW style games require. THAT is the appeal of the game. When you take away the chance for achievement, you take away the entire point.

[Lieda]

Well its not gonna happen, but I imagine things would be much better if gems were use for things like, Speed up armors crafting time, maybe directly helping with enhancing, maybe a special function to add gems on a fusion to give a chance for a better result or a plus result... Only in ways to get better gears, with some luck... Get them ready and upgraded faster, increase the craft time if you must... This wouldnt create such an unfair scenario as it is right now, because, even tough more slowly, f2p would be able to get their stuff as well, ofc, not the high end stuff for free, but thats it for gems they shouldnt play any role in GW or Arena, as its well know that theyre pay to win contests... Im imagining how it would be.

[Zyntree]

Lieda, I would also like that... but as you said, not gonna happen. Think of how much GREE made off this event. Think they're backing away from that?

Sifu,
I completely agree with you. Obviously paying players should have an advantage. Otherwise why would they pay? But just as clear is the need for free players to have a real shot at getting close to a paying player through hard work and 'achieving' as you put it. I'm not at the free ceiling yet, but I'm getting close. I can get 43 kills, and I have some armors I'm still working on. But I'll get to that ceiling within the month, and if there's no way (6 beast keys doesn't really count, because who are we kidding, an epic out of that, yea right) for me to have a chance at getting an epic, or the legendary + don't ramp up in their strength, what's the point. I will have plateued, and grinding to maintain isn't appealing to me. If they keep offering events that I can complete to get keys to chests that would be something too. I could live with that. They've already released a ton of epics into the arena, so something has to give to allow the daily players who are free or low spenders to catch up. btw, I've spent like $25 on the game, so I am technically a paying player, but I'll never be a big spender. My level of pay is just as important as the big ones, because more will do it. If GREE lets this get too far out of hand though, me and those like me will decrease and decrease....

Busteroaf,
Sifu wasn't saying the game wasn't fun. He was saying there is little to no strategy once the battle starts. The fun is in getting new and stronger armors, in leveling them up, in reaching new acheivements... and if that goes away, so does the fun. Obviously we wouldn't play if it weren't fun, but just as clearly, the fun isn't in making a great strategy in the battle...because that's mostly random based on the armors you have.

This thread is about the recent (yet rectifiable) fundamental change in the nature of the game through the disparaging gap in what is attainable by free or low spending players and what is attainable by big spenders. If big spenders not only have a major advantage but one that is impossible to overcome by the free / low spenders, the game looses significant appeal.

[gardibolt]

Yeah the key to a successful FTP game is to give the paying an edge, but not a huge edge. A huge edge means free players just give up. Rather they should be encouraged to stick around and turn into paying players.

[Sifu]

If they keep offering events that I can complete to get keys to chests that would be something too. I could live with that.

I think this hits on an important point that I have not specified well enough in any of my comments.

I am not saying that epics from fusion are even necessary. That is simply a mechanic that USED to exist in the game that helps bridge that gap. Therefore, it naturally becomes a point of discussion in HOW to bridge that gap.

There are plenty of other ways that would be acceptable. For instance, ElijayK's suggestion on a fusion only armor could work. More ways to have a random chance at an epic or more frequent access to that one-armed bandit can work. There are plenty of other creative ways they could attempt to "fix" the issue. As a community, we could even help them out with suggestions here. Who knows what they might read and like.

ElijayK's suggestion was creative and interesting to me. If you create a new class of armor that is not as good as epics but is closer than 4*+, that can be the free player's channel for achievement. If those are close enough that they can be competitive with epics, then woot. As it is, when I face an epic, I have to hope that my element line-up is perfect. If even one is off, I'm going to lose 95% of the time. That other 5% is usually a new armor that hasn't been leveled much yet or a low character level. And that's only facing ONE epic. Bridge that gap a little so that if two out of three of my armors are lined up right I still have a chance, then I can still feel that I am not being held down by a ceiling. Sure, the paying player with epics still has an advantage. As long as my lucky/strategy/investment of time, etc leveling the armor are superior, I can still win, then we have something to work with.

The other easy idea is more frequent access to the slot machine. You can do that with more events like the beast chest keys, more rewards that give keys or multiple ways to play that slot machine. One of the important points, however, is I need to feel like I am working to get those opportunities in a way that I have some control over. For instance, if it is only given out to the top 10 guild war or top 10 arena...without the epics, or spending gems, how do I ever earn that chance at the slot machine?

Doing it through fusions, at least I can feel like farming for fusion stones was "earning" a chance at it. I could feel like I was working towards something. That is not the best implementation, honestly, because the fusion stones are such a random and low chance thing anyways, but that's the idea. Free gem offers fails this test because it is too random and too low chance. I can do everything right and not get a gem for weeks at a time. Additionally, it takes so many gems to open one chest which has such a low chance at a decent armor, this is pointless to discuss as a "chance at an epic". It can be one out of multiple ways, and then it's fine, but alone, it's not enough to be considered an honest opportunity by anyone rational. Why is that too low? Because the armors are becoming outdated too fast for that rate to be considered effective.

The frequency is something that Gree would have to carefully balance. It would all depend on just how common epics are and how quickly they become obsolete. If the majority of paying players have abandoned an armor after six weeks, then a dedicated free player should honestly be able to obtain at least one epic every six weeks, right? If you make their rate of acquisition so low that they are completely obsolete most of the time, then they were pointless. Maybe they only become obsolete after 8 weeks. Then the free players odds can be stacked to accommodate that rate. If an epic is still competitive and in common use after 8 months, then whooo, you can really make these rare for free players. The point is simply that the rate of stat creep in the game will have a lot to do with the chances free players need.

Also, don't forget, the more chances a free player has...are also more chances for paying players who invest similar time and effort. This all does have to be balanced carefully. I'm not asking for hand-outs. Just a reason to play. As you said, the fundamental nature of this game is achievement through obtaining and leveling competitive armors. That is the only way to reward a player for their time and has to be at a rate effective enough to keep them interested.

[The Pale Rider]

The frequency is something that Gree would have to carefully balance. It would all depend on just how common epics are and how quickly they become obsolete. If the majority of paying players have abandoned an armor after six weeks, then a dedicated free player should honestly be able to obtain at least one epic every six weeks, right? If you make their rate of acquisition so low that they are completely obsolete most of the time, then they were pointless. Maybe they only become obsolete after 8 weeks. Then the free players odds can be stacked to accommodate that rate. If an epic is still competitive and in common use after 8 months, then whooo, you can really make these rare for free players. The point is simply that the rate of stat creep in the game will have a lot to do with the chances free players need.


Very well said. That's the mechanic that needs to be addressed. Personally I like the quick fix of making leg+ fusions the only way to fuse epic without otherwise changing the mechanics.

[Lieda]

Another fact is that some people wish to get into top ranks because of the rewards, i mean, it would be awesome to get a black medal, win like 50 gems and some and fusion stones, yes its nothing like an epic plus reward with hard work alone, but currently thats impossible, the current rank 1 already have 100k points... whatever he gets is worthless to him because he already spent several times more than what he will get... Hows that a reward for showing your valor and honor as gree says after announce the top 3 richies after arena is over? Plus those are people who doesnt care about rewards taking the place of people who would fight hard for it, those just want to showoff they are rich... And the same applies to GW... Once upon a time, battles were a display of skill and hard work....

Same goes for GW, imagine getting a great reward because of the guild hard work, teamwork, preparation and tactics, even though this game combat is simplistic... Rewards are down to a mere compensation... Well thats just my opinion, im glad i dont aim, for high ranks, not anymore.

[Sifu]

Another fact is that some people wish to get into top ranks because of the rewards, i mean, it would be awesome to get a black medal, win like 50 gems and some and fusion stones, yes its nothing like an epic plus reward with hard work alone, but currently thats impossible, the current rank 1 already have 100k points... whatever he gets is worthless to him because he already spent several times more than what he will get... Hows that a reward for showing your valor and honor as gree says after announce the top 3 richies after arena is over? Plus those are people who doesnt care about rewards taking the place of people who would fight hard for it, those just want to showoff they are rich... And the same applies to GW... Once upon a time, battles were a display of skill and hard work....

Same goes for GW, imagine getting a great reward because of the guild hard work, teamwork, preparation and tactics, even though this game combat is simplistic... Rewards are down to a mere compensation... Well thats just my opinion, im glad i dont aim, for high ranks, not anymore.

I think that is a separate issue. Not to dismiss your point, but I think the nature of the game makes that kind of competition almost impossible in this type of game.

The kind of competition you describe requires there to be a level of skill in the combat. If your skill is better than the other player, then you will rank higher. In KnD, however, the outcome is almost predetermined. Your preparation for the battle is the determining factor.

In arena, you can have more battles, and win or lose, you can achieve more points to buy a higher rank. The battles themselves, however, are won by those with the highest stats. Character level, armor quality and armor level are the key factors. Character level is controlled by the match-ups. It is limited to 10 levels difference. Armor level is determined by how well a player dedicates themselves to playing frequently enough to maximize their resources...or spending. This is a classic way for paying players to have an advantage and is to be expected in a free to play/pay to win game. Armor quality is where this thread is focused. When a paying player has a huge disparity here that a free player has no way to compete against...all the other points become moot.

In guild wars, again, spending can overcome all. While this might not be as typical of all free to play/pay to win games, it is still something that we probably just have to accept and is not that uncommon. That is the model Gree has chosen to use, and this seems like a valid place to say, "if you don't like it, find a game more acceptable to you".

This thread is mostly focused on:
1. Is the epic -> 4*+ gap too large
2. Is the ceiling too low if free players can only get 4*+
3. How to bridge that gap if you see it as an issue

[Lieda]

But its not completely isolated from the subject, as i said, with no epics on fuse, the only assure way to get epics, would be gw, chests... Well ill not get into that... We all know how its gonna end, but its impossible without heavy money spending, those who get them doesnt need them after all, they could just spam chests away...

Of course, because the way the game is, having the better gears mostly grants you the victory, now f2p dont have access to them in any way anymore, and again lets not talk chests... I just think about this epic fiasco , that if not with fusing, gw would be the second way, while geared people would have more chances to get into the best ranks, f2p would still have some chances on maybe no plus epics, if they actually were organizated and dedicated, thats one way to say f2p are not denied the good stuff at all and to not say that they are simply handing epics like in a 100% fuse chance, gems should just grant the chance of getting geared, but again... Play no role in gw or arena...

[EljayK]

I think given the topic of this thread, there also needs to be a consideration for the free gem videos disappearing. This lowers the ceiling for free players considerably. A free player would previously have had a chance to get free gems and buy a chest. They had a slim chance of getting a Legendary+. Without video offers, the ability to get those gems is quartered. This increases the time it takes to work up to that slim chance. That amount of time is now increasing the power of pay players exponentially in comparison, as epics are continually released.

I don't think the issue is so much where a ceiling lies for free players, as it has to do with the ever expanding gap, and the speed at which that gap is growing. Hopefully the free video offers are not gone forever, but if they are, it will take a very dedicated and long term strategy to renegotiate the balance of an economy reliant on their existence.

[Sifu]

I think given the topic of this thread, there also needs to be a consideration for the free gem videos disappearing. This lowers the ceiling for free players considerably. A free player would previously have had a chance to get free gems and buy a chest. They had a slim chance of getting a Legendary+. Without video offers, the ability to get those gems is quartered. This increases the time it takes to work up to that slim chance. That amount of time is now increasing the power of pay players exponentially in comparison, as epics are continually released.

I don't think the issue is so much where a ceiling lies for free players, as it has to do with the ever expanding gap, and the speed at which that gap is growing. Hopefully the free video offers are not gone forever, but if they are, it will take a very dedicated and long term strategy to renegotiate the balance of an economy reliant on their existence.

The Wise One confirmed in a thread that the IOS players missing that button will be getting it back.

Having said that, what is the typical rate a free player can obtain an epic in that way? How does that rate compare to stat creep?

Unless something drastic changes in that dynamic, I can't see that alone being a solution.

Edit:


Hi,

It'll be fixed and brought back in the next update. Sorry for the trouble.

[possum]

The ironic thing is that the people who are against this probably benefited from this ability as much as anyone else, even more so since they have the capability to level them up quickly, more so than the average person.

Dare I say they're probably using them now, in the arena, in pve, in guild wars, obtained in the same manner as everyone else? The answer is probably yes and this includes the "elitists" especially.

In any case, all I have to say is that when epics were fusable, the game was much more enjoyable and intriguing, for everyone, regardless if you spent $500 or spent $10.

[Revelate]

I believe Lieda is right on this. That guild that did 1.2 million? Yeah, they now have a mark. They see 5 million now as the minimum they will need to win the next one. They are looking for that guy who did 200,000 in some #15-25 guild and is looking to improve guilds. The top players will coalesce into top guilds.

Somewhat late reply but I fear this may be inevitable.

25% of the players accomplished 75% of the points in my guild; and we finished top 10 on IOS. It's not sustainable, the spenders I'm not sure have much choice but coalesce into a few guilds.

We lost at least one gemspender already and the difference between that and making it up in recruiting is frankly a daunting proposition. A common sentiment I've heard from everyone I've chatted with who spent gems is they hope (or in some cases expect) it'll be cheaper next time: the only way to achieve that is to play in a guild with more gemspenders, which means either they have to be recruited or the individuals will go find a guild which simply spends more.

Either scenario pushes this trend forward, the only question I have is if the spenders will consolidate into call it 5-6 guilds leaving 4 top 10 slots open for basically free / free gem players, or if they'll wind up consolidating (or lack thereof as we see now) into the 11 guilds that were there now, and that the minimum line will continue to escalate and put the game out of reach for non-spenders unless they happen to exist in one of the top guilds (and I'd be the first to admit not all contribution is just gem spending).

I really don't know how Gree walks this line or what they expect to come from this but I see this as a natural conclusion personally especially in the epicless fusion era.

For reference, rough estimate of gems spent by my guild during this guildwar: 18000.

[The Pale Rider]

"For reference, rough estimate of gems spent by my guild during this guildwar: 18000.".

So that's $1575 if people bought only in increments of 800 and got the 30% discount on every purchase (i.e. the floor). And your guild is somewhere in that crush of 6-11. So the heavy spenders spent around $150 each. They take a screen shot of their points and IM a higher guild for admittance. I could think of worse things to drop $150 on - they presumably had a lot of fun over the 3 days. My guild was 56 and I don't think anyone spent anything on gems. We used a few hundred gems, but that's from offers and vids.

My point is that if it's GREEs model to milk 50 guilds (1500 players) for $50,000 a GW - that's short term thinking. It would be much better to convert a higher percentage of the 100,000+ players to pay a few bucks. I know I was tempted and so were others in my guild. It's tough to lose to a single gemmer when you've got 10 more guys fighting than the other guild. Especially when it comes down to just another 1000 points for the win. Those are the guys GREE should be after.

That's lower refresh cost and lower gem prices (exactly what they did in this GW). They need to find the right combination that gets the conversion rate right. Every 1% of f2p to p2p is worth much more than another whale in the RR.

Frankly it should be $1 for refresh or less (which is actually already where it is for bulk buys - 800 gems cost 8.75 cents a gem during war). Just discount the lower end purchases and try to get conversions. After they buy 1 they'll buy more -- it's the psychology.

[busteroaf]

Of course, because the way the game is, having the better gears mostly grants you the victory, now f2p dont have access to them in any way anymore, and again lets not talk chests... I just think about this epic fiasco , that if not with fusing, gw would be the second way, while geared people would have more chances to get into the best ranks, f2p would still have some chances on maybe no plus epics, if they actually were organizated and dedicated, thats one way to say f2p are not denied the good stuff at all and to not say that they are simply handing epics like in a 100% fuse chance, gems should just grant the chance of getting geared, but again... Play no role in gw or arena...

Trying to say gems should have no place in GW or arena... Then how will they work? Time based? Comes down to a battle of who can lose the most sleep? Please, come up with a concept on how you can incorporate "skill" into this game to take the place of armor stats/rng/gems. And of course still makes Gree money, since, that is what it comes down to in the end. If you think/say they did it for the fun of the players, you need to get your head checked.

You would have to overhaul almost the whole game if you start to take out gem usage in Arena/GW, while cutting out a large revenue stream. What about epic bosses? Can you no longer use gems to win there? Well, if you bring back fusion, and still allow gem use there, what stops anyone from just gemming their way to a legendary armor to be able to fuse?

Yes, you can change gem usage to only open chests, but how are you going to keep a steady flow of revenue out of just chests? If you open fusing back up, would that open up more people to want to use chests? Personally, I don't think so. I feel like the same people who would drop money on chests, would continue to use them, and people that don't spend money on chests, will continue to not spend money, plain and simple.

Also, not trying to be a d!ck, but please, explain to me why f2p players with "organization and dedication" should have the same rewards as p2p players? The fact that they pay money, and often lots of it, should tell you that they have serious dedication too. Also, there is a lot more organization to guild wars than just spamming buttons attacking people. For RR alone we had at least 3 different chat channels running at any given time, outside of the generic in game guild chat, and I'm sure many of the other guilds did too. I'm not saying that just because someone spends money, they deserve more, but... if I'm paying for someone else to be a free player, I feel I should be allowed get more out of it than they do.

[The Pale Rider]

if I'm paying for someone else to be a free player, I feel I should be allowed get more out of it than they do.
Please - you are not paying for anyone else to be a free player. You are motivated entirely by the desire to beat free players (and paying players) at the game. There is nothing altruistic in your actions.

Absent the 98% of players that are f2p there would be no game. the relationship is symbiotic not parasitic.

Many games survive on ad revenue and offers - this game could try it but in game purchases are probably superior revenue sources. That's not always true, but GREEs done an excellent job of building a game players want to spend money on. You get more out of spending money because no one would spend money if they didn't get more - no one is arguing with the basic premise behind all p2p games.

[Revelate]

So that's $1575 if people bought only in increments of 800 and got the 30% discount on every purchase (i.e. the floor). And your guild is somewhere in that crush of 6-11. So the heavy spenders spent around $150 each. They take a screen shot of their points and IM a higher guild for admittance. I could think of worse things to drop $150 on - they presumably had a lot of fun over the 3 days. My guild was 56 and I don't think anyone spent anything on gems. We used a few hundred gems, but that's from offers and vids.

My point is that if it's GREEs model to milk 50 guilds (1500 players) for $50,000 a GW - that's short term thinking. It would be much better to convert a higher percentage of the 100,000+ players to pay a few bucks. I know I was tempted and so were others in my guild. It's tough to lose to a single gemmer when you've got 10 more guys fighting than the other guild. Especially when it comes down to just another 1000 points for the win. Those are the guys GREE should be after.

That's lower refresh cost and lower gem prices (exactly what they did in this GW). They need to find the right combination that gets the conversion rate right. Every 1% of f2p to p2p is worth much more than another whale in the RR.

Frankly it should be $1 for several refresh or less.

I agree with most of what you're saying; I'm not sure what the price will stabilize at but I do agree it's too expensive now and making it cheaper would likely draw more people in and increase the competitive landscape... which I think is good marketing for Gree as well as being higher revenue. I'm certain they're looking at that data.

I think though if most guilds look at their results data, the gemspenders weren't very evenly distributed; I heard from one top 3 guild where a bunch of people were in the 150-250k range, which is a lot more realistic than where my guild wound up.

For reference doing the actual non-sloppy napkin math percentage of our pre-bonus points during the war by top X players (ordered by score):

top 10: 73.2%
top 5: 57.1%
top 3: 42.2%
top 1: 23.3%

Not a tremendous amount of variation in the data from 2-4 in ours, 5-10 somewhat to markedly less, and of course our one outlier affectionately labelled as a whale here. I think most guilds that analyze their data will find similarly: I'm nearly 100% confident that the guild which fell out of the top 10 was carried on the backs of a few spenders, and at the end I suspect their spending power on a few people simply fell short of the aggregate higher participation from some of the other guilds. We saw a marked increase in both participation and gems spent by the aggregate membership in the last 12 or so hours. Over time whales will win out for points, but in a short time period limited by roughly 1 attack / 30 seconds / player, it's hard to perform well in a blitz scenario as it played out.

The conclusion I drew is one whale can carry a guild if there is a supporting cast, but even a few whales on their own can't make it when push came to shove at the end frenzy.

If the pricing structure changes and we get a larger supporting cast base, well, I have to admit the last couple battles where we were on edge of slipping out of the top 10 were pretty epic from my perspective; if that can be extended to a larger rather than smaller genepool to where call it ranks 4-30 lie in the balance at the end, well, I don't have many adjectives beyond epic in my vocabulary that might accurately describe that.

[busteroaf]

Please - you are not paying for anyone else to be a free player. You are motivated entirely by the desire to beat free players (and paying players) at the game. There is nothing altruistic in your actions.

Absent the 98% of players that are f2p there would be no game. the relationship is symbiotic not parasitic.

Many games survive on ad revenue and offers - this game could try it but in game purchases are probably superior revenue sources. That's not always true, but GREEs done an excellent job of building a game players want to spend money on. You get more out of spending money because no one would spend money if they didn't get more - no one is arguing with the basic premise behind all p2p games.

You're right, I never said I pay for others out of the goodness of my heart. I spend money because I want to win, no matter if it is against a free player or another paying player. And if by me spending, means someone else can play for free, and yes, leech off of me, I want more than they are able to get, be it more Epic Boss energy, more Arena energy, more Guild War energy, chances at chests, whatever. Just as much as if I can play say, SWTOR for free, and someone else pays, I shouldn't expect to have access to all the areas they do. Do I whine about it? No. Cause that is how it works. I need to pay if I want more. But magically here, people feel entitled to having access to the best stuff, regardless of if they are paying for it or not. And by your logic, if I'm paying to win because I get more, then why are f2p people still *****ing about not being able to get epics, or that they don't have the access to it? Boo freaking hoo. Pony up some money like other people do and bam, You too have more options to get them like I and many other players do.

[Sifu]

I have to agree with The Pale Rider. I think there is a serious misperception about the value of the free players.


Also, not trying to be a d!ck, but please, explain to me why f2p players with "organization and dedication" should have the same rewards as p2p players?

There is a big difference from buying absolute dominance due to paywalls and buying advantage.

If the game was designed based on content, then a paywall makes sense. What is driving the players is being able to see all the content.

In a game that is designed to rely on competition motivating players to play, it doesn't make sense for the long term health of the game to exclude any class of players. In the design of this game, it is entirely possible to buy dominance. Therefore, what is the purpose of putting a ceiling on armors for free players? All else being equal, including armors, the paying players still can win whatever they choose with the swipe of a credit card. So what is the purpose of making armors that are 15% to 25% stronger exclusive to paying players?

[busteroaf]

So what is the purpose of making armors that are 15% to 25% stronger exclusive to paying players?

Idk. Maybe to thank them for actually paying?

[possum]

You still paid and played when epics were fusable, I bet you'll continue regardless of what happens. I bet most of you took advantage of the fact as well.

They have you hooked. They know it, heck anyone looking at the scoreboard knows it, you and all your rainbow buddies, so in reality there's no difference so long as they keep shoving guild wars your way.

[Sifu]

Idk. Maybe to thank them for actually paying?

Well, isn't that nice. You can buy victories so you have all the benefit you really need. Now let's pump your egos too and demotivate the f2p players so the game population might crash. Sounds logical.

[busteroaf]

Actually, as stated before, many are actually getting bored with it, while many others want to increase spending. So i don't see the game economy bursting anytime soon. Seems pretty level right now.

Maybe if everyone else gave a few bucks for playing, you know, like in console games where you pay to buy the game, the game wouldn't be out of whack and there wouldn't even be this discussion. Everyone would have already paid, and have equal access. Someone else mentioned earlier that if they made this game a subscription game, would people pay to play... ? All you freebies likely wouldn't, thus you wouldn't even bother with the game. You know, us "richies" as people refer to us as... We'd still have a game. You should thank us.

Also, there are plenty of people outside of Rainbow Room who put money into this game, so please reference them too. I understand that you have to hate on someone. I get it. But realize the top guilds and our upcoming members pay for a game for you to leach off of. Also, for you Android players, the Android version is just as perverted as the iOS version. You just don't want to admit it isn't without it's paying players. You think they won with the sweat of their brow and the strength of their backs? Sorry to spoil the fun. They paid too. There is just a smaller player base and its been around for less time than iOS has.

[Lieda]

Trying to say gems should have no place in GW or arena... Then how will they work? Time based? Comes down to a battle of who can lose the most sleep? Please, come up with a concept on how you can incorporate "skill" into this game to take the place of armor stats/rng/gems. And of course still makes Gree money, since, that is what it comes down to in the end. If you think/say they did it for the fun of the players, you need to get your head checked.

You would have to overhaul almost the whole game if you start to take out gem usage in Arena/GW, while cutting out a large revenue stream. What about epic bosses? Can you no longer use gems to win there? Well, if you bring back fusion, and still allow gem use there, what stops anyone from just gemming their way to a legendary armor to be able to fuse?

Yes, you can change gem usage to only open chests, but how are you going to keep a steady flow of revenue out of just chests? If you open fusing back up, would that open up more people to want to use chests? Personally, I don't think so. I feel like the same people who would drop money on chests, would continue to use them, and people that don't spend money on chests, will continue to not spend money, plain and simple.

Also, not trying to be a d!ck, but please, explain to me why f2p players with "organization and dedication" should have the same rewards as p2p players? The fact that they pay money, and often lots of it, should tell you that they have serious dedication too. Also, there is a lot more organization to guild wars than just spamming buttons attacking people. For RR alone we had at least 3 different chat channels running at any given time, outside of the generic in game guild chat, and I'm sure many of the other guilds did too. I'm not saying that just because someone spends money, they deserve more, but... if I'm paying for someone else to be a free player, I feel I should be allowed get more out of it than they do.

I guess you dont even read what I type, i never said f2p should get the very same conditions of those who spends gems, im merely saying that gems should be used in acquiring armors and perhaps in other ways that grants benefits for those who support the game, and as ofc, grant revenues. Please read more carefully what i said about GW, if one need to have a break and get to sleep others will too but im not trying to make it sound that simple, you dare too say its not a money war? i guess its probably because money is no problem for you after all. and Im not talking about battling skill here, ive mentioned the battle is simplistic, and the most geared ones will win, its gree that talks about valor and display of skill and all after displaying the 3 richies who got the top ranks in the arena.... I can see their great skill at touching the purchase gems buttons, its a fact.

In my first post i said i believed it were not going to happen but it would be nice to have gems off the arena and gw like it or not, but hey, not long ago we didnt have any way to interact with anybody, now we have guilds and a limited yet functional chat, they could do if they wanted.
Now its totally fair and right for gem spenders to have advantages, hell it is, but they simply have the control, not advantages, the concept of pay to win has been brought to its full extent and gree is doing it right, since theyre getting loads of money with it, why bother?

[Sifu]

Actually, as stated before, many are actually getting bored with it, while many others want to increase spending. So i don't see the game economy bursting anytime soon. Seems pretty level right now.

Maybe if everyone else gave a few bucks for playing, you know, like in console games where you pay to buy the game, the game wouldn't be out of whack and there wouldn't even be this discussion. Everyone would have already paid, and have equal access. Someone else mentioned earlier that if they made this game a subscription game, would people pay to play... ? All you freebies likely wouldn't, thus you wouldn't even bother with the game. You know, us "richies" as people refer to us as... We'd still have a game. You should thank us.

Also, there are plenty of people outside of Rainbow Room who put money into this game, so please reference them too. I understand that you have to hate on someone. I get it. But realize the top guilds and our upcoming members pay for a game for you to leach off of. Also, for you Android players, the Android version is just as perverted as the iOS version. You just don't want to admit it isn't without it's paying players. You think they won with the sweat of their brow and the strength of their backs? Sorry to spoil the fun. They paid too. There is just a smaller player base and its been around for less time than iOS has.

Well, it's nice to see such humility.../sarcasm

Economy - There isn't really an in-game economy, so clearly, you are talking about Gree profits. Consider...if the f2p players left in droves, who would you have to feel better than then? Without the f2p players, this game collapses as surely as if the p2p players leave. Get over yourself.

Subscription - to be a subscription game, the game would have to be much more developed than any phone based game can be due to platform limitations. This is ludicrous to presume that any phone game is worthy of a subscription. Please don't act like they need resources like a fully fledged pc or console game. The limitations of the platform restrict their costs sufficiently that we are talking two entirely different topics here.

Rainbow Room or You - if you feel that any of these comments have been directed AT you, then I will apologize for the confusion. I think if you read them again, however, you should be able to see that these are comments directed at the philosophy of game design. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I really have zero animosity to anyone in the game or Gree because I don't care about a simplistic time sink that much. I have invested a little over $100 in about 5 weeks on this game, despite my intentions or philosophical opinions on game design. I'll wait while you get your surprised face, since you clearly assumed anyone who disagrees with you couldn't have paid to support the game... I suppose that minor investment has me somewhat more interested in these design decisions than I would be otherwise, but not enough to really care one way or the other about attacking other player's opinions. I had no intention of saying any of this next part, but maybe some ugly honesty is called for here:

Having said that, from a pure design philosophy view, I think your opinions expressed so far are so selfish as to be unfair to an honest discussion on this topic. Your views about your importance as a spender are clearly irrationally inflated and coloring your reason. Your ego about your guild seems to also be causing a lot of defensiveness.

Now, having said that, I hope you don't really take that personally, because that is honestly not my intention. I'm trying to get us back into a reasoned discussion about what's best for the game and being honest about our motivations is the only way to reduce this conversation to logic instead of emotion or greed or even potentially envy on my part. I have no doubt that at times you have been subjected to unfair comments because of your gear/guild/spending/etc. You might have cause to react that way or have a defensive instinct. I'm just asking that you read this thread for what it is, instead of what you expect it to be.

Surely, you see the logic in how free players create a better game population? Surely, you see that any game of this type is going to need to meet a certain minimum threshold on population to sustain itself? I would think that you would agree that high turn-over in the f2p population is bad because that likely implies that you are not converting free players into paying players? I would also expect you can see the logic that having a population where most spend some is better than one where a few spend all? Consider a bank. Would you rather have 1 member who deposits $1 million or 1 million members who deposit $1? Can you see why the $1 dollar members are better than the $1 million member? That financial truth is true in a game like this as well. Keeping the free/low spenders around and motivated IS important to the game. "Thanking" the paying players by taking things away from the rest is bad game design. Jackboots don't make for loyal subjects.

[Zyntree]

So many smart people in this thread...
I must agree extending the paying player base by lowering the cost of gems is attractive to me, but to whom would that not be. I also agree with the logic that pumping a few cash whales is a worse long term strategy that pulling a larger and lesser paying base into the fold. They could do that if the rewards beyond top 10 were worth it. I mean Guardians+... that's cool and all. It would be my best armor, but it is not epic, and it does not result in epic participation, nor epic money spending.

Like you said rev, GREE is certainly crunching those numbers. They know what they are doing. 50k off a weekend event, that's pretty good. Pulling a larger base paying base to spend $1-20 every few months... that's better. Give us a reason Gree, because watching the top 10 race away with themselves, and wanting the D ribbon over B or C was certainly not one.

[busteroaf]

.
TL : DQ (Too long didn't quote... otherwise no room for my essay)

Sorry, when I said economy, I meant population. I was out playing trivia and responded on my cell phone. Someone mentioned the population crash. Again, haven't seen a mass exodus of players yet. So when that happens, call me.

First question, if the f2p players left, who is left to feel better than? May I assume you mean, who would I have left to outspend? Same people I've already spent money with my guild to be better than - the other paying players that are in the same position I am. Again, I'm not a lone wolf in this situation, I just happen to be the one speaking out with my opinion.

And for f2p players or p2w players leaving... In either situation, eventually the game MIGHT eventually collapse, but if the f2p players leave, you are still left with paying players that still compete to beat each other out for the time being. It is not as if with less people the will to win will simply disappear. "Oh no, that f2p guild just quit. Dang. I give up." Negative. Will the game fail eventually? Quite possibly, due to the lack of a population. But as long as the game is making money, you have the potential to get new players do you not?

If the p2w players leave, does that instantly make the f2p players spend money to keep the game alive, or WANT to spend money? Do they magically start forking over money NOW when they didn't before? Why, because now they know that the "richies" are gone and now they "might" have a shot if they spend $5 on a guild war? Then 5 leads to 10, leads to 50, leads to more. You simply repeat your cycle of finding people willing to drop large amounts of $$ into the game. I don't think you'll ever wind up with a version of KnD where a majority all pays "just a little" to keep it afloat, instead of a minority paying a lot. It is possible, but its not guaranteed.

Do both games eventually fail? Again, quite possibly. I didn't argue that point originally.

And sure, paying for things in game and a bit of ego might seem to be clouding my judgement, but it is just that, my judgement, just like my opinions. No one has to agree with me. Not even my own guild. If you are investing in a game, like you said you are, even in a minor amount, or if you've spent the amount of money that many in the top 10 (and many lower) have, and not want the best rewards, or at least better rewards, well, I personally, not RR, feel that you're selling yourself short. If you just shrugged it off that opening chests didn't get you anything of value, then you sir, must have had a good chunk of money to spend, or just really not care that much about the game. An honest kudos to you either way. For other people, you can see it on the forums. Look at any "insert chest here" rewards threads. They bought gems once, and played the odds, and got squat. They're pissed. Those are the people invested some of themselves in the game. Those are the same people that feel they deserve something for forking over money. Those people feel the same way. Okay, maybe not totally the same, but they feel that they deserve something else for the money they invested. Good or bad, there are a LOT of people out there like that.

We've talked about money and costs in our guild chat. Some people have said "you know what, its not worth the money it costs trying to compete for first/second" when the rewards are so close, and noting that other members of other guilds have said the same. Do you think if all the gem spenders could, as a whole, agree and find a way to spend less and still keep it competitive and fun, that we would? You better believe it that we would. Why the hell wouldn't we? But the way it stands, spending is an unfortunate side effect of the way the game is designed. If you want to guarantee your win, you'll spend until you know you've won. Show me a way around it and I and many guilds will love you forever. FOR. EVER. There is no mercy rule here as we know, so its not like winning guilds will just coast to a win from day one. If there was a way to do so, trust us, we would have done it, and our wallets would thank us.

As far as my "Idk. Maybe to thank them for actually paying?" comment... yes that was some sarcasm mixed with ego. So yeah. It is a dig on the f2p players. To keep them around IS important, I'll agree. But to say chime in with saying that Gree took fusing epics away to rewards the paying spenders and punish the f2p players is ridiculous. They took fusing epics away from everyone. Paying players don't magically have a secret button that we bought that we can push and still fuse epics. The Guild Wars don't help either as they are a giant cash cow. A cash cow that clearly shows a separation of spenders and non-spenders. People realize that, and understand that... but yet people still complain that they feel cheated because they aren't gem spenders and can't rightfully win the top tier prizes. At the same time, those that want to win, or are pushed by the drive to win, are pushed to spend as well. Thus, your separation.

And as far as them being 15-25% better than other armors... it really doesn't matter how much it is. It is something to strive for. Sure, everyone wants it, but not everyone can get it. That is the meaning of the top tier prizes. Not every Olympian can win the Gold medal. Well, technically they all can, but not at the same time. No matter what area of the game they put it in, the #1 Epic Boss damage winner, the Arena winner, the Guild Wars winner... The top prize shouldn't be something that everyone else can get. Otherwise, why even bother? Eventually everyone will get it and then it loses some of its meaning. If I win a gold, then you win a gold by farming it later, and someone else gets a gold by farming three weeks from now, doesn't it lose some of its luster?

As it stands now, there are two (four if you get technical with the + version) armors that are unavailable to anyone outside of the top 10 from guild wars, and not available in chests, or obviously fusions. Cloudrange and Forgestone. That is it. Everything else in this game, rewards and otherwise, everyone has equal access to. Know how I get my Aegis of the Dragon? Through chests, the same way everyone else does. I have just as much way of "farming" for that as the next guy. Either buying a chest that guarantees it, or taking my chances on non-guaranteed chests. What about that Epic Boss? I still have to fight the boss just like everyone else does. There is no magic skip button. I can't take unleveled armors against the boss and expect to win. Sure, I can buy Epic Energy and fight more battles, but if I'm not playing smart, I'm wasting gems. Arena? I can buy more energy, but if I don't pair up my armors right against certain people, I'm only earning the most minimal points, again a waste. It still takes some strategy and knowledge, paired with the extra energy you can buy, to be successful. Just because they don't offer ways to farm for extra energy or gems, doesn't make them (Gree) bad people. Or because they make things that seem "exclusive" to gem spenders. Again, blame the system, not us. Which, I don't think you have, I'm just saying. I take advantage of an option in the system. Pay to get more options. That is my choice.

Also, as an aside, I appreciate the fact that you stayed level headed through the back and forth. Kudos to that as well. Something I can't myself. And for what its worth, I don't fully disagree with you on topics just to disagree, even though it often seems like it. In fact, I quite agree with some of your posts in the guild pairing thread. I just disagree with all the bring back the epic fusion threads.

[The Pale Rider]

Buster - good post. I'm actually in favor of highly limited epics (top GW and low odd chests). The entire problem was failing to do that when they were introduced. GREE acted to limit the damage which creates haves and have nots among both f2p and p2p. That's why I referred to this problem as existing only for a window in time. As armor stats go up the short term outsized advantage of those easily gained early epics will diminish.

I argue for fusing something better than leg with leg because that's the main incentive to crafting the ones you don't plan on using. I recognize that GREE has substitute beast keys for the fusing incentive - which shows an awareness of the issue. I just think the effort reward us out of whack if 5 keys (150 gems) is all you get for crafting 3 leg+ in 3 weeks. It's not like the GW, arena or bosses - it's pure farming drudgery to level 3 armors to 35 and craft 6 (if you don't want them).

[possum]

I don't believe the beast keys have anything to do with this change and who is to say what exactly is in them?

[template]

People talk about how the game should be changed so that more players spend smaller amounts of money. Good idea in theory. Problem is that it's not how f2p models work. Even if the game is changed in a way to try and facilitate spending, likelihood is that non-spenders will still not spend, especially since any such change is likely to mean easier access to high-end gear.

[xXdarkenXx]

for my personal thoughts on this topic..

1)Allow fusing of epic to both f2p/p2p...y? bcuz the game is about getting all the armors available and mixing around having fun with ALL different combination and getting the best armors around IF POSSIBLE(spending money allows u to do that):cool:. Competing with one another/Guild wars comes 2nd~

2)Make chances of getting + version armors in chance chest higher...y? So ppl are willing to spend money on chests.

With these 2 simple steps i think the game will better..reasons:

1)all players will get to have the chance to all the different types of armor..everyone happy :)

2)p2p players will get the +version armors to all types of armors while f2p only get normal version for the highest grade(unless they are in really strong guilds(i believe most spend money to compete) or use free gems(free gems are limited) and actively compete in arena, they may acquire +version for epic).

3)p2p may consider changing being a p2p to f2p bcuz without spending $$ they too can get all the different armors.However, there is a difference in stats between + and normal version(tats y its around since the beginning). Thus i doubt they will become f2p as most would wan to stay ahead and be competitive at the top.Thus still remain a p2p.

4)f2p will then also have a chance to also compete with the top players using normal version of epics. But to win,i think they will need to spend money to overcome.(unless they are gods and always have advantages over opponents armors,which i doubt so)

[Lieda]

If just gree dont ignore whats being discussed... While we may have not the proper solution, its quite undeniable that we have a problem that requires they attention, if they care....

[Sifu]

.

I likewise appreciate this well thought out post. If we're not careful, we'll have to publish these comments in bound copy due to their length, lol. And again, I really am trying to make this thread about the philosophy of the game design and not about, "YOU STOLE OUR STUFF". I recognize there are a lot of entitled people out there. I often find them just as annoying as you do, I suspect. I am simply trying to make a case, from a game design point of view, why a f2p needs more motivation than currently exists since the change. I'm open to all kinds of discussion about how to achieve that motivation, but of course, since epic used to be that carrot on the stick, it naturally becomes a big point of discussion.

As for the game failing...yeah, I hate when a discussion goes there. "Predicting" the failure of a game is a foolish comment usually. I really believed at one point that D3 was going to fail. Of course, they made a lot of the type of changes I thought they needed to even though the forum population generally claimed "it's fine". But I digress...

I only brought up that subject (with a shudder as I did it) to point to the truth that in the failure of a f2p/p2w game, either the free players or the paying players can be the major cause. It was just suggesting that f2p players have a critical role in the sustainability of these types of games in most situations.

Your logic is not lost that when f2p players leave, very little income is lost. When p2p players leave, so does income. However, my comment about "who will you feel better than" (which was unnecessarily snarky, sorry) was to point out that the cannon fodder serves an important role in these games. As I mentioned those studies on player types, a lot of players in this style game are what are classified as "Killers". Those players need this population for them to feel they are conquering. If suddenly a lot of f2p was gone, many of the Killer type p2p players would leave because they are suddenly ranked out of 1000 instead of 10,000 victims, or whatever the numbers actually are. If the top 100-500 guilds was all that was left in the game, sure, when war comes, they are going to be just as competitive and probably spend just as much. However, are we really sure they would still be here when the next war comes? Would they just lose interest when there were not so many challengers to be defeated? That goes for Achievers and Killers.

As to f2p players suddenly ponying up if p2p leave, you are right. There is no reason to believe in the current game design that they would. There is a possibility that such an event would take some of those who were on the edge and they suddenly see an opportunity to buy victory cheaper than when the real p2p were here. I don't think it's safe to assume that would be a reliable prediction, though. As some of the other posters have pointed out, I think Gree should carefully analyze their cost models. Getting purchases into micro-transactions seems like the best way to push f2p players into the paying model. That means they have to stop trying to market to the $100 at a time spenders so exclusively. As long as that is the general spending that f2p see being promoted, they are probably going to be more resistant than ever. It's all well and good to point out that $ per gem is low, but as long as they see the $100 price tag, they are probably going to avoid it. Then again, in the current model, value per gem is really low as well. Anything of value costs soo many gems, and often is still not guaranteed, that you still have to question the cost of gems. This leads into other thoughts for me as well. I'll see if I can get this all in here clearly and still with an efficiency of words.


But to say chime in with saying that Gree took fusing epics away to rewards the paying spenders and punish the f2p players is ridiculous.

I did want to respond to this in particular too. I honestly don't believe that this change had anything to do with intentionally creating a paywall on epics. I was just pointing out that is the effect, regardless of motivation. I don't think this was motivated by rewarding or punishing any class of player. That was just a response to comments basically saying "good design".

I think Gree realized a mistake with how many Techtonics were being obtained. I think they instituted an emergency measure to stop it. I suspect they are currently in frequent meetings about how to fix that issue. I think the root cause was combinations they didn't fully consider that do not have enough possible results. They didn't have the variety of armor they needed on the fusion tables to keep epic rarity where they wanted it. Any number of ways to "fix" that.

1. Add more armors to the fusion tables. They can simply wait until more are introduced to the game, add in some old armors, any number of ideas that have come from the forums to dilute the tables, etc.
2. Leave it the way it is and not have them fusable.
3. Maybe just modify mono elements to not give epic so that it expands the possible results and helps dilute the tables that way.
4. I'm sure there are more.
They could still be deciding between the options or maybe just waiting for the development team to be able to implement their solution. I might be completely wrong about their motivations. Who knows. What we can do, however, is see the results of the current situation.

Previously, a f2p and a p2p had access to all the same things. A p2p simply had the option to pull that slot machine arm more frequently. Epic+ might be fair to say was not available to f2p. While technically, they can collect free gems and some rewards to pull that lever, they get to do that SO infrequently with such a low chance...it doesn't much count. Also, due to the "energy" mechanic tied to everything, p2p are allowed to play more, which by design, increases their rank. This is a significant advantage. This does allow a wallet to dominate. This has any number of beneficial side effects as well. Level 3 training fields, extra armors for fusion/enhancing, squeaking out that extra EB kill, whatever. There was already a LOT of benefit to being a p2p. However, the limitations on a f2p where such that they could feel competitive. As an f2p, I have no delusions that I'm going to win a black medal (or likely even bronze) in arena. As it was previously, however, if I matched up against the guy who eventually won, I MIGHT actually beat him in that battle. That's an f2p win and keeps us motivated.

The current situation takes that kind of win away from the f2p. With epics completely off the table for free play, regardless of WHY they actually did it, the power gap between f2p and p2p has become a lot larger. The entire dynamic of the game has changed. Now instead of just the "best of the best" available to only p2p when it was epic+ that was exclusive, they are segregated into a definite "best and the rest" situation.

When I was going through the Play Store to find a new game, I read reviews for at least 5 other games before finding KnD. All of them were well reviewed. However, within just a few comments, they all also said that "gems" were too important and too rare for free players. I immediately skipped each of those games when I read such a comment. KnD, however, the first gem comment I read said something to the effect of "gems are not as all-important as most f2p games". That was the entire reason this game was even installed on my phone. Gree has effectively changed that dynamic with this change and I can only hope it is the temporary situation that I mentioned before.

As to your comment of "The top prize shouldn't be something everyone else can get", I would agree completely. However, I don't think it is accurate to the current situation. With both epic and epic+ off the table, combined with the power gap they have, I personally feel it is more like saying Gold, Silver and Bronze are off the table. Feel free to run for exercise, but you can't win anything. Thanks for supporting our Olympics, we needed more than just the 3 winners in the race so they had somebody to beat.

"Everything else in this game, rewards and otherwise, everyone has equal access to."

This is a bit of a semantic argument. It is, in it's literal and logical sense, true. However, that is ignoring the defining classification well established with "f2p" and "p2p". I think it's fair that we allow the use of that, which means, f2p does not have equal access...or they would not be f2p.

It would be very interesting to open up conversation as well on Gree's model of everything is a gamble. How would changing that dynamic change your outlook? What if "free gems" and rewards were different than "purchased gems"? What if purchased gems had a higher chance of higher tier rewards? Same access to all, just an advantage to payers? As long as f2p still was able to reasonably obtain competitive gear, I think I could live with something like that. Also might push me more to actually pay to gamble once in awhile.

[The Pale Rider]

Thoughtful comments. You're ignoring the fact that the game has at least two main stages - builder stage (city, quests, getting to level 100, etc.) and advanced stage. Before guilds, there wasn't all that much to interest a 100+ player. I know some players still were p2p because they just wanted nicer stuff or to beat the boss or arena - but it wasn't enticing for most. I went through the game mostly as a single player game with a bit of arena fighting (for basically no rewards).

Introducing guilds changed all that. Now its a multiplayer game and all the players going through the builder stages have regular interaction with players in the advanced stage. The pace is greatly accelerated and they're much more likely to become "power gamers" because advanced players tell them how to be efficient, what armor to go for, how to level well, etc. The focus of the game moved away from a single player game with a bit of light interaction.

This was a really nice evolution of the game, which kept me interested where I otherwise would have left. Before GW, I had abotu half of the 100+ level friends on my list leave the game, now I always see the latest armor on friends and many are level 200+. Clearly the advanced stage is the new focus of the game.

But it's still relatively new (as we can see from the massive number of glitches in the game). GREE has had zero bug free GWs so far. I am dealing with several nonfunctioning aspcts of the game now (weekly contributions has been out for weeks and quest contributions aren't working right).

My point is that were in a beta period for the multiplayer game. I like the GW element a lot and I'm enjoying the game a lot more. The introduction of epics coincided with this beta period - one of many new changes. It was poorly implemented. GREE is certainly in it for the long haul (as long as there are enough players) - so were doing an extended live beta test of a new multiplayer game designed to entice players who "graduated" from the old single player game to keep playing.

[Thatzme]

Lol all these essays. Practising for ur thesis?

[Ithiliond]

Lol all these essays. Practising for ur thesis?
What a childish taunt. Practising for primary school? I guess you didn't find a way to pay for the exams, unless you are attending a GREE's school.

[Sifu]

What a childish taunt. Practising for primary school? I guess you didn't find a way to pay for promotion, unless you are attending a GREE's school.

As one of the "essayists" I didn't take any offense. I may be wrong, but I didn't assume some negative motivation in his comment. I don't see any reason to. That is a bad tendency on the internet to assume negative intentions. I just took it he was trying to make a humorous comment about such unusually long posts. No blood, no foul.

[Tianna]

Wall of text :)


Very thoughtful and well-written post. It was a pleasure to read :)

Fairly early after I started playing the game, maybe around level 20-40 or so I did spend money on gems a couple times. I can't honestly remember what I spent those gems on, but it was not anything particularly useful in the long run, and may have actually made nearly zero impact now that I am close to 100. What I do remember about it was realizing afterwards that what I got for my money was rather disappointing and I have not bought any gems since then. Beyond upgrading TFs to level 3, I can't think of any other places where spending gems (at least more than 1 for a special attack) is not a gamble but has certain, tangible rewards. I would be a lot more likely to spend $5 or $10 here and there if I knew what exactly my money would get me in the game. Right now it seems that you either need to spend A LOT and buy tons of gems, to try out your luck with chests, EB wins, GWs etc, or you might as well not spend any.

[-Solo-]

Right now it seems that you either need to spend A LOT and buy tons of gems, to try out your luck with chests, EB wins, GWs etc, or you might as well not spend any.

Basically this. There's nothing in this game that is guaranteed when you spend small amounts of gems at a time. It's either get lucky or go big and go broke.

[busteroaf]

Lol all these essays. Practising for ur thesis?
I love you too honey!

[Antinoob]

bring back fusable epics, it just makes you look greedy and uncaring towards players who cant afford to spend alot of money to hit the chest 200 times for a .01% chance to get a epic.. i personally can attempt the chest but not a insane amount, i found it very fun to attempt to get a epic from fusing, either lose to legendarys to garbage or gain a beast for two good armors. but instead gree had to ruin it for many of their players who still most likly buy gems, just not enough to get a epic.. so in the end they will be losing money rather then gaining. it makes me not want to buy any and try at them.. just giving gree what they honestly care about and thats money

[Hakurou]

As stated on Facebook by users who got response from Gree: The matter is looked into and fusing epics will be released back into the game when they found a way to balance it.

Can we now close all the threads and the *****ing and moaning plz? At the beginning it was funny to read but now im only bored...and yes i have an epic but only one...and this one was very expensive...would possibly been cheaper to try my luck and invest the amount of gems in opening chests.

[busteroaf]

As stated on Facebook by users who got response from Gree: The matter is looked into and fusing epics will be released back into the game when they found a way to balance it.

Can we now close all the threads and the *****ing and moaning plz? At the beginning it was funny to read but now im only bored...and yes i have an epic but only one...and this one was very expensive...would possibly been cheaper to try my luck and invest the amount of gems in opening chests.

Probably would have been better off playing the lotto

[Hakurou]

Probably would have been better off playing the lotto

Hm...id prefer a casino visit and a good game of texas hold'em over lotto...but i get your point.

[ZERO_07]

As stated on Facebook by users who got response from Gree: The matter is looked into and fusing epics will be released back into the game when they found a way to balance it.
basically wait a few months while we release a new rarity armor with 40K combined total stats to make Epics obsolete, then we'll make them fuseable again.

[Thatzme]

What a childish taunt. Practising for primary school? I guess you didn't find a way to pay for the exams, unless you are attending a GREE's school.

U sir, sure knows how to feed the trolls :)

[Ithiliond]

U sir, sure knows how to feed the trolls :)
It's like a fetish, I was just having fun ;)

[Raichu]

basically wait a few months while we release a new rarity armor with 40K combined total stats to make Epics obsolete, then we'll make them fuseable again.
Lol i bet that's what is going to happen

[Stooboot]

This game is dead to free players. You won't be able to stay competitive and have a good portion of the game locked out. They shunned a good portion of their playerbase and it will only be a matter of time until the players that don't post on forums and are socialable to realize that.

not exactly true its more about luck than money. Obviously money is whats going to win guild wars but in a fight if u r fighting a epic spirit armor with a legendary fire armor fire will win every time no matter the level.

[busteroaf]

There are tons of companies and games that people say over and over are "dead" and they're still alive and kicking. When you say "it won't be long"... Stretch that to a year or two. At least.

[Bride of Eunuchorn]

Have you any idea the countless # of, how do I say this without profanity, HORRIBLY HORRIBLE "card" game apps there are? I pay more than a lot of money to Gree, but there are people selling their accounts in eBay for a game you've never heard of for hundreds or even thousands of dollars. Who wants to buy the GM of The Rainbow Rooms account? Bidding on her/his Facebook starts at FREE. All proceeds go to organization of sellers choice.
I guess my point is there's way too many humans & according to the Epic Boss leaderboard, only about 76,000 play Kandy with us.

[bosskiller]

I agree with what most of you seem to have agreed on, that nonfusable epics makes the non payin players want to quit. I am glad they are bringing them back, but when they do they probably will be obsolete.

[JakeVersus]

Watch. Right when they bring back epic fusion, there will be a whole new 6 star level armor type.