Economy experts out there

[Johny Lauronitis]

I have 80m on hand, I have 2 level 2 NC's(collectible 3 times a day) and I currently have 1 of the west sides finest gems. Should I upgrade the west sides finest gem building to level 2, upgrade 1 of my NC's or buy another west sides finest gem building. I was never good in math what with the ROI, IPH and such.

[bald zeemer]

Buy the 2nd Gem store. It's an absolute beast of a building, and if the LTBs continue improving the point where it's not a necessary building then the NC will be a decoration.

Also, disregard ROI. It'll send you on fools errands. dIPH/t is where it's at.

[Johny Lauronitis]

Alright, thx for the info much appreciated :D

[ShawnBB]

lvl1 to lvl5 LTB prize doesn't matter any more since the stats inflation going out of control.
This Gem shop is by far the best building after Pagoda, go get em both.
Like zeemer said, NC will not be that strong after the better and better LTBs. I personally abandoned my lvl 7 NC, no upgrade for him whatsoever.

Also, I don't go for the lvl1/5, lvl1/6, lvl1/7 LTB upgrade style now. Do it like 4/4, 5/5, 6/6. 1 less weapon but better Econ.


Watch your eyes for "Cherno Alpha" :P

[bald zeemer]

I'm a big fan of upgrading both LTBs, great for IPH.

http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag150/Balthazar9/79C244F0-9CB5-4314-8A3A-0DED87A29F40-341-000000A5CF95B45C_zps289c78f8.jpg
:)

[TMI]

114 duffle bags!!! That's settled for me now. I'm always buying LTBs. Hey, they're limited time. Can't resist that!
They look nice. I like how the LTBs are all together. I might copy that :P

[bald zeemer]

I just did it recently. I like how it looks and I know where to look for all my non-standard collections. :)

[ZURENNARRH]

I just did it recently. I like how it looks and I know where to look for all my non-standard collections. :)

Slacking on the dockside mill there Zeemer, tut tut

[bald zeemer]

I know, I was out of internet for that one and never got around to 'em. They'll be much better before the end of next war, though. :p

[greenwood]

One vote for uprading nightclub, which will help you with future LTB's/IPH more so than a second gem store. Just a little feedback from someone without a sky-high IPH.

[CCKallDAY]

I'm a big fan of upgrading both LTBs, great for IPH.

http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag150/Balthazar9/79C244F0-9CB5-4314-8A3A-0DED87A29F40-341-000000A5CF95B45C_zps289c78f8.jpg
:)

wow, how high is your IPH?

[bald zeemer]

Sorry, that information is a closely guarded secret.

;)

[OffensivelyNamedGuy]

Buy the 2nd Gem store. It's an absolute beast of a building, and if the LTBs continue improving the point where it's not a necessary building then the NC will be a decoration.

Also, disregard ROI. It'll send you on fools errands. dIPH/t is where it's at.

The problem with ROI is that it doesn't take into consideration all the money sitting in your bank during the upgrade invested in nothing and returning nothing. This is due to the fact that we're limited on how many investments we can make at any one time. Don't blame ROI, blame the way it's calculated. Factor in the 100m sitting in your bank during a Laundromat upgrade and suddenly the ROI doesn't seem so good.

That being said, oftentimes the best upgrade is simply the most expensive. Get that money out of the bank and working for you.

[mxz]

That being said, oftentimes the best upgrade is simply the most expensive.Amazing piece of advice there.

Concur with balthy, here. Get the LTB. Its the 3rd best building in the game right now, so don't pass it up.

[bald zeemer]

The problem with ROI is that it doesn't take into consideration all the money sitting in your bank during the upgrade invested in nothing and returning nothing. This is due to the fact that we're limited on how many investments we can make at any one time. Don't blame ROI, blame the way it's calculated. Factor in the 100m sitting in your bank during a Laundromat upgrade and suddenly the ROI doesn't seem so good.

That being said, oftentimes the best upgrade is simply the most expensive. Get that money out of the bank and working for you.

That's a problem with ROI, but not the big one.

The real problem is that there is a range of ideal upgrades, many of which are unobtainable until IPH is insanely high. Since increase in available cash simply bring online more of these upgrades, the net effect is that for all intents and purposes inflation is infinite. Since ROI deals in nominal returns it disregards this inflationary impact.

The only way to mitigate against inflation is to maximise nominal income (as opposed to return on investment). Hence, dIPH/t.

[bald zeemer]

Amazing piece of advice there.

Concur with balthy, here. Get the LTB. Its the 3rd best building in the game right now, so don't pass it up.

What are you tracking as 1 & 2?

I've got it as #1, for the record. (2 being the bank, 3 being NC, 4 being Pagoda).

[mxz]

NC, Pagoda, Gems, Bank.

Expensive Type A's are a special tier of awesome.

[bald zeemer]

Although a $120m type-A would be awesome, I quite like these big bad type-B's, because so many people ignore them. When that $500m type-A drops in 6 months we'll see whether they wish they'd stocked up on monster B's. ;)

[Keiff]

One of the nicest things about all of the LTBs is the low build and upgrade times.

[bald zeemer]

One of the nicest things about all of the LTBs is the low build and upgrade times.

Very true. It's one of the reasons why they dominate dIPH rankings (the other being high cost, hence high payout schedule). The 78 hr 9-10 upgrade time is phenomenal. The next best (ie, non-LTB) 78-ish hour upgrade is Casino 3-4, whose dIPH/t is less than half of the worst LTB 9-10 upgrade.

[murf]

That's a problem with ROI, but not the big one.

The real problem is that there is a range of ideal upgrades, many of which are unobtainable until IPH is insanely high. Since increase in available cash simply bring online more of these upgrades, the net effect is that for all intents and purposes inflation is infinite. Since ROI deals in nominal returns it disregards this inflationary impact.

The only way to mitigate against inflation is to maximise nominal income (as opposed to return on investment). Hence, dIPH/t.

I still argue that if you ignore cost entirely, which dIPH/t does, you are making an equally large mistake then if ignore inflation as well....

dIPH/t works for you because you have 2 (or 3) cost modifiers and an income of over $20m/hr, so cost doesn't affect you...for the other 99% it's a balancing act between the best upgrade with regard to cost (ROI) and best upgrade with regard to time (dIPH/t)....

P.S. and when I say best upgrade with regard to cost, I'm not talking about upgrading LMs and Pizza Parlor's, I'm talking about your 10-20 most expensive upgrades....you need to look at both dIPH/t and ROI....or for simplicity the GFI formula (dIPH / (save time + upgrade time)...this formula isn't perfect, but it balances cost, current IPH, upgrade time and dIPH fairly nicely....

[bald zeemer]

I still argue that if you ignore cost entirely, which dIPH/t does, you are making an equally large mistake then if ignore inflation as well....

dIPH/t works for you because you have 2 (or 3) cost modifiers and an income of over $20m/hr, so cost doesn't affect you...for the other 99% it's a balancing act between the best upgrade with regard to cost (ROI) and best upgrade with regard to time (dIPH/t)....

P.S. and when I say best upgrade with regard to cost, I'm not talking about upgrading LMs and Pizza Parlor's, I'm talking about your 10-20 most expensive upgrades....you need to look at both dIPH/t and ROI....or for simplicity the GFI formula (dIPH / (save time + upgrade time)...this formula isn't perfect, but it balances cost, current IPH, upgrade time and dIPH fairly nicely....

My iph is where it's at because I use dIPH/t, not the other way around. Yes, my progress is accelerated due to gold use, but the path is unchanged (and, if anything, my penchant for rush-finishing puts me more or less in the same position as those with less high IPHs, as I am foregoing significant portions of the savings made during upgrades).

I ignore cost because of the inflation-related reasons previously stated. There is no need to "balance" dIPH/t and cost - simply upgrade by the best dIPH upgrade that you can afford at the time. The only modification to this is if you are making a save upgrade in order to achieve a better upgrade. In that instance, make the best save upgrade according to dIPH/t.

[murf]

My iph is where it's at because I use dIPH/t, not the other way around. Yes, my progress is accelerated due to gold use, but the path is unchanged (and, if anything, my penchant for rush-finishing puts me more or less in the same position as those with less high IPHs, as I am foregoing significant portions of the savings made during upgrades).

I ignore cost because of the inflation-related reasons previously stated. There is no need to "balance" dIPH/t and cost - simply upgrade by the best dIPH upgrade that you can afford at the time. The only modification to this is if you are making a save upgrade in order to achieve a better upgrade. In that instance, make the best save upgrade according to dIPH/t.

Here's an example:

Shiner Still -> L9
- Cost = $3,024,835,585, dIPH (for Tycoon) = $158,125, upgrade time = 72:00

Chinese Pagoda -> L9
- Cost = $907,450,713, dIPH (for Tycoon) = $143,000, upgrade time = 72:00

Your argument is that the Shiner Still is a better investment since you gain an extra $15,000/hr over the same upgrade time, even though it costs you over 3 x's as much for 10% extra payout.

Seriously???

[murf]

Here's an example:

Shiner Still -> L9
- Cost = $3,024,835,585, dIPH (for Tycoon) = $158,125, upgrade time = 54:00

Chinese Pagoda -> L9
- Cost = $907,450,713, dIPH (for Tycoon) = $143,000, upgrade time = 54:00

Your argument is that the Shiner Still is a better investment since you gain an extra $15,000/hr over the same upgrade time, even though it costs you over 3 x's as much for 10% extra payout.

Seriously???

I see this one as a closer decision:

Nightclub -> L9
- Cost = $2,419,868,467, dIPH (Tycoon) = $417,083, Upgrade time = 159.28 hrs
West Side Fine Gems - > L7
- Cost = $1,997,329,094, dIPH (Tycoon) = $222,115, Upgrade time = 60 hrs

I could see the argument that you are willing to forgo 87% more income for 21% more cost, to save 100 hrs of upgrade...I still choose NC, but if my income was higher, it might switch to Fine Gems.

[Euchred]

The thing about making 20 mill plus an hour with 3 or more cost reducing modifiers is that you can take ANY building to level 10 doing all the upgrades in a row and still have money to spare when you're done. (+1 upgrades makes a bit of a difference) At this point there's not much to think about and this puts me way out of touch with ROI, I mean it was all I use to think about, now I don't even look at it.

[murf]

The thing about making 20 mill plus an hour with 3 or more cost reducing modifiers is that you can take ANY building to level 10 doing all the upgrades in a row and still have money to spare when you're done. (+1 upgrades makes a bit of a difference) At this point there's not much to think about and this puts me way out of touch with ROI, I mean it was all I use to think about, now I don't even look at it.

I agree 100% with this....

[brandocommando]

So for us mere mortals with only $3-4 mil IPH where cost is still going to be a factor, would you say GFI is the best way to go? For a while I've been upgrading the bldg with the highest GFI that I can afford and my NCs and Pagodas always switch off at the top of the list.

[mxz]

So for us mere mortals with only $3-4 mil IPH where cost is still going to be a factor, would you say GFI is the best way to go? For a while I've been upgrading the bldg with the highest GFI that I can afford and my NCs and Pagodas always switch off at the top of the list.Yeah, stick with GFI. I recommend weighting the cost to give it higher priority and as your income increases you can slowly decrease the weighting. Effectively, that's what Balthy does - he just has cost weighted at 0. I couldn't recommend that for those of us without deep pockets or 70%+ cost mods.

[OffensivelyNamedGuy]

That's a problem with ROI, but not the big one.

The real problem is that there is a range of ideal upgrades, many of which are unobtainable until IPH is insanely high. Since increase in available cash simply bring online more of these upgrades, the net effect is that for all intents and purposes inflation is infinite. Since ROI deals in nominal returns it disregards this inflationary impact.

The only way to mitigate against inflation is to maximise nominal income (as opposed to return on investment). Hence, dIPH/t.

Yes, of course saving time needs to be factored in to the ROI calculation as well.

For the record, I use my "increase in IPH per day" metric to determine my next upgrade. I assume that's the same as dIPH/t or whatnot. Of course this factors in everything from collection rates, saving time, and also aggregate "increase in IPH per day" for building upgrade chains (as buildings aren't necessarily most efficient at their early levels).

The only thing I dread adding is multiple simultaneous upgrades, that turns everything on its head! Have to do a bit of overriding as it is to account for simultaneous build and upgrade at the start of LTB.

[bald zeemer]

The only thing I dread adding is multiple simultaneous upgrades, that turns everything on its head! Have to do a bit of overriding as it is to account for simultaneous build and upgrade at the start of LTB./quote]
Utilising my method accounting for +1 upgrades is easy - you simply halve your IPH for calculations on saves.

[quote]Shiner Still -> L9
- Cost = $3,024,835,585, dIPH (for Tycoon) = $158,125, upgrade time = 72:00

Chinese Pagoda -> L9
- Cost = $907,450,713, dIPH (for Tycoon) = $143,000, upgrade time = 72:00

Your argument is that the Shiner Still is a better investment since you gain an extra $15,000/hr over the same upgrade time, even though it costs you over 3 x's as much for 10% extra payout.

Seriously???
It would depend on your current situation. As stated, my method involves always aiming for the best upgrade, and conducting saves in order to get there.

So if no other upgrades were available, then in the situation you presented I'd definitely take the triple cost, 10% better payout option.

However, if other upgrades were available (and they are), then it's situation dependent. But I can assure you that L9 shiner's will almost certainly never be the top upgrade, so on the assumption is is a spend upgrade then you'd move down the list, and the Pagoda L9 upgrade could well be a save, making it the preferred option.

OTOH, if the Still is a save upgrade, then yes, go for the still. It'll result in more of your money being put to work. Since the Still upgrade costs 3X as much, for it to become a save you'd need an IPH 3X the size of when the Pagoda became a save, which means that a lot of your cash will be sitting around during the course of the upgrade. And, of course, you'll still be able to perform the Pagoda upgrade as soon as the still upgrade is done (since the still upgrade is a save), if you aren't yet at the save point for your ideal upgrade. The only possible exception to this is if these 2 were your next 2 save upgrades, and performing just the Pagoda upgrade would get you enough cash for your ideal upgrade.

Amusingly, I actually faced this exact situation, and I went for the Pagoda for reasons stated above.

[OffensivelyNamedGuy]

Utilising my method accounting for +1 upgrades is easy - you simply halve your IPH for calculations on saves.

Not ideal, but I suppose it would work. Almost like operating 2 independent hoods. Might be 50/50 is not the ideal split all the time, but for simplicity's sake, sounds like a good method. Probably a lot better for you than most, anyway, with your super high income. I'd probably be 80/20 or 90/10 most of the time.

I'd probably be foced to start doing ridiculous upgrades like L9 lofts lol just to burn up the upgrade hours. It would only be beneficial for me at the very beginning of LTB.

[bald zeemer]

The dividing IPH by half is for the purposes of identifying save upgrades. Obviously there are increased subtleties involved, but the principle holds throughout. i.e., you aim for the top upgrade, and perform a range of save upgrades whose net effect is a save large enough to allow you to do the ideal upgrade.

It sounds overly simplistic, but if you look at a dIPH/t upgrade spreadsheet with IPH halved then you quickly see it is a very different beast (ie, the focus is on ensuring enough cash is saved for an upgrade, rather than ensuring that overly-long save upgrades are not conducted).



I'd probably be foced to start doing ridiculous upgrades like L9 lofts lol just to burn up the upgrade hours. It would only be beneficial for me at the very beginning of LTB.

dIPH/t never forces (suggests) that you perform these upgrades. High end loft upgrades are ranked so low as to never be a realistic option. IMO that is a proof of the efficacy of dIPH/t. Many other methods turn out these suggestions that one is meant to dismiss from general game knowledge. But if they were suggested by a method, then that method legitimately thinks it's a good upgrade. Hence, there is a fault in the method.

I challenge anyone to give an example of dIPH/t suggesting a ridiculous upgrade.

edit/ I just checked my pers hood planner, and 9-10 loft is the 127th best upgrade available. So it would not be suggested at any point in any realistic timeframe.