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zwiswoo
08-30-2013, 06:12 AM
It seems like discussion of this issue has been going on for days now. The amount of info obtained on players (stats - even skill points - and gold budget being most striking) by database snooping seems to be very large, and confers a huge advantage upon teams/players using these techniques:
- in regular PVP, to most efficiently find targets based on stats and income
- to replace scouting during syndicate events, or even decide in advance which battles to contest and which to wait out.
- to estimate gold needed to reach a rank by snooping into your key opponents' data.
- in picking high-scoring battles or targets for PVP tournaments

It seems by now that practically all top 25 (and probably many down to top 100 or 200) teams are using such methods now, and there's even a frickin website. I guess as someone in a team that's found it a bigger and bigger challenge to stay in place, learning that such methods are ubiquitous explains some things.

But more importantly, a surprisingly large number of people are claiming these methods aren't cheating at all. And now that it's been discussed on the site, I'm betting a fair number of teams learning about the methods - or just how widespread they are - will want to switch to them too. This is why it's very important for admins to state the official view on such methods, and whether they are allowed by the terms of service.
- If yes, then make it plain. Then everyone will do it, and no-one will get any competitive advantage out of it. It would be a loss to everyone's enjoyment since it takes out a lot of strategy, but at least it can be a fair loss to everyone.
- If no (as I suspect) then please a) say so and b) do something about it. I am sure you know you need to stop storing and transmitting all info in the clear like this. At least use some obfuscatory methods if you can't encrypt this stuff.

But please address this; the time for ignoring the issue is long past. It's being discussed in your own forums, and everyone knows it's possible.

bald zeemer
08-30-2013, 06:18 AM
in regular PVP, to most efficiently find targets based on stats and income
This would be of limited to no use whatsoever. I pulled sub-400 off a 3m defense player, ranking is far more important, and already publicly viewable.

The Evolution
08-30-2013, 06:22 AM
This would be of limited to no use whatsoever. I pulled sub-400 off a 3m defense player, ranking is far more important, and already publicly viewable.

Noted. But your missing the main issue here. Lets not pick out the little stuff and talk about it lets talk about being able to pull data using a program from other peoples "supposed to be private phones". I see no way anyone in their right mind can say this is legit. If that's the case blow up all the fixes and let this place be a free for all. That's what is basically coming to now.

zwiswoo
08-30-2013, 06:24 AM
This would be of limited to no use whatsoever. I pulled sub-400 off a 3m defense player, ranking is far more important, and already publicly viewable.

ISTM you're evading the issues raised.

I also don't know what PVP is like for you guys, but for regular players it involves going into hood after hood to find a target. For my level, only one in a hundred players is worth robbing for cash, and even for tournaments only a few give decent coin. When you find a really good target you keep refreshing to find them, because good targets are so rare.

This kind of technique sounds like it would let you open your rivals screen, have the tool immediately tell you who - if anyone - meets some standard, and then keep refreshing till you get good targets. Am I wrong? And would you seriously say it doesn't matter?

Dipstik
08-30-2013, 06:29 AM
I think this is far less common than you think. I know Mxz was one of the first and best at understanding how to sniff data, but I've never seen htc use it for any strategic advantage. I don't think it's ever come up before. This database you're talking about was created and used by one group.

BigMoney
08-30-2013, 06:31 AM
It seems by now that practically all top 25 (and probably many down to top 100 or 200) teams are using such methods now, and there's even a frickin website. I guess as someone in a team that's found it a bigger and bigger challenge to stay in place, learning that such methods are ubiquitous explains some things.

Where are you getting the idea that anyone other than 1-2 teams has access to such a database/techniques? I'm in a top 25, why didn't I get the memo on how to use it? I can see it being useful at the Top 3 level (e.g. if you see the team above you currently has more gold in their accounts than you are comfortable spending then it's not a good idea to push them), but I really don't see how it would be useful to me on a top 25 team, let alone "top 100 or 200."

greenwood
08-30-2013, 06:31 AM
This would be of limited to no use whatsoever. I pulled sub-400 off a 3m defense player, ranking is far more important, and already publicly viewable.

Sounds like he uses it. I rarerly read or post in general forum due to adults acting like teenagers but this is a big deal. We need an answer. Thanks zwiswoo for not letting this go unanswered.

Green Drake
08-30-2013, 06:42 AM
Where are you getting the idea that anyone other than 1-2 teams has access to such a database/techniques? I'm in a top 25, why didn't I get the memo on how to use it? I can see it being useful at the Top 3 level (e.g. if you see the team above you currently has more gold in their accounts than you are comfortable spending then it's not a good idea to push them), but I really don't see how it would be useful to me on a top 25 team, let alone "top 100 or 200."

Here is the email that Matt thomas the leader of rogues sent to e yesterday in regards to this. Now I am sure he shared this with the other top 25 teams for the purpose of covering his bum. It would be extremely difficult for gree to ban all members of the top 25 syndicates vs only rogues. Regardless here is his email.

"With that said, It doesn't require hacking into Gree's information - you just pull data off your phone. You can't use it to your advantage because it doesn't tell you enough info. You can't tell collection times. You couldn't possibly use it to help yourself in war. It was a tool a member made only to find cheaters and access was given to every leader in a top 25 room I created for banning cheaters and hackers. We don't use it anymore though."

BigMoney
08-30-2013, 06:44 AM
Here is the email that Matt thomas the leader of rogues sent to e yesterday in regards to this. Now I am sure he shared this with the other top 25 teams for the purpose of covering his bum. It would be extremely difficult for gree to ban all members of the top 25 syndicates vs only rogues. Regardless here is his email.

"With that said, It doesn't require hacking into Gree's information - you just pull data off your phone. You can't use it to your advantage because it doesn't tell you enough info. You can't tell collection times. You couldn't possibly use it to help yourself in war. It was a tool a member made only to find cheaters and access was given to every leader in a top 25 room I created for banning cheaters and hackers. We don't use it anymore though."

So your proof that top 25 teams have access to this database is that MT sent you an email vaguely describing the database?

bald zeemer
08-30-2013, 06:44 AM
For the record, when the database was in use I was in FC. I was one of the people monte contacted offering to show me the info that had been collected. I declined, because frankly I didn't, and don't, care.

Lifetime gold spend is amazingly easy to estimate. If you have half a shmick then gold on hand is pretty easy to estimate, too - moreso at the higher levels where pretty much all the players know one another's play styles.

That said, I think it was definitely a step too far, and am glad that the idea of using such methods at all (even for "legitimate purposes", such as the top-10 cheat-identifier chat that it was purportedly aimed at assisting) has not maintained favour.

My main concerns are:
a) That Gree sends unencrypted data, purely out of laziness.
b) That significant, undeniable hacking - not just for personal gain but aimed at others to directly detriment them - has gone unpunished in several of the most high profile instances.

The database would struggle to make top 10 on my issues with CC at the moment, or even at the time.

hg789
08-30-2013, 07:10 AM
My main concerns are:
a) That Gree sends unencrypted data, purely out of laziness.


Whether or not it's encrypted is irrelevent, the data in question should never have been sent. It's sloppy lazy coding that has enabled this problem - it's sending extraneous data and letting the client pick out the bits it needs instead of only returning the relevent data.



b) That significant, undeniable hacking - not just for personal gain but aimed at others to directly detriment them - has gone unpunished in several of the most high profile instances.

The database would struggle to make top 10 on my issues with CC at the moment, or even at the time.

+1

mxz
08-30-2013, 07:14 AM
Whether or not it's encrypted is irrelevent, the data in question should never have been sent. It's sloppy lazy coding that has enabled this problem - it's sending extraneous data and letting the client pick out the bits it needs instead of only returning the relevent data.No one's mentioned the data usage on erroneous and duplicated data, yet. That should be another concern. Extra data means, obviously, you use more of your data plan when not on wifi; but also that you're using more battery via the extra and unnecessary processing involved.

sister morphine
08-30-2013, 07:46 AM
No one's mentioned the data usage on erroneous and duplicated data, yet. That should be another concern. Extra data means, obviously, you use more of your data plan when not on wifi; but also that you're using more battery via the extra and unnecessary processing involved.
It's no wonder these apps balloon to such huge sizes. CC on my phone is 948 MB currently, but it's been well over 1 GB before, until I deleted and reinstalled the app. Get it together Gree :(

MattThomas08
08-30-2013, 08:21 AM
It's no wonder these apps balloon to such huge sizes. CC on my phone is 948 MB currently, but it's been well over 1 GB before, until I deleted and reinstalled the app. Get it together Gree :(

You mean you don't want your phone to store every single item in every hood you visit? C'mon, think of the time you're saving.

sister morphine
08-30-2013, 09:18 AM
You mean you don't want your phone to store every single item in every hood you visit? C'mon, think of the time you're saving.
Lol, I dread to think how big it would be if I were "out & about" as much as some people ;)

[CM]]forgetaboutit
08-30-2013, 09:47 AM
For the record, when the database was in use I was in FC. I was one of the people monte contacted offering to show me the info that had been collected. I declined, because frankly I didn't, and don't, care.

Lifetime gold spend is amazingly easy to estimate. If you have half a shmick then gold on hand is pretty easy to estimate, too - moreso at the higher levels where pretty much all the players know one another's play styles.

That said, I think it was definitely a step too far, and am glad that the idea of using such methods at all (even for "legitimate purposes", such as the top-10 cheat-identifier chat that it was purportedly aimed at assisting) has not maintained favour.

My main concerns are:
a) That Gree sends unencrypted data, purely out of laziness.
b) That significant, undeniable hacking - not just for personal gain but aimed at others to directly detriment them - has gone unpunished in several of the most high profile instances.

The database would struggle to make top 10 on my issues with CC at the moment, or even at the time.

Also what other info can they sift from your data packet besides what was said

bald zeemer
08-30-2013, 09:51 AM
If we're talking broader nefarious purposes rather than abusing for in-game benefit I'm significantly more concerned by the excessive unencrypted data that is included in tickets.

montecore
08-30-2013, 09:55 AM
]forgetaboutit;953585']Also what other info can they sift from your data packet besides what was said

The biggest risk is tracking data changes. It's one thing to see your bank balance, gold balance, and collection count frozen in time. But if that is monitored and changes tracked over an hourly or half-hourly basis it becomes trivial to know which buildings you are collecting and when, how much gold you have spent and have left, you could even predict gold bonuses for an entire syndicate if you tracked it long enough.

Green Drake
08-30-2013, 09:56 AM
If we're talking broader nefarious purposes rather than abusing for in-game benefit I'm significantly more concerned by the excessive unencrypted data that is included in tickets.
Then may I suggest you start your own thread dealing specifically with that topic.

Max Power
08-30-2013, 10:06 AM
Man, I feel like a relic in this game these days.

Dipstik
08-30-2013, 10:24 AM
You are a relic.

nopenopenope
08-30-2013, 10:50 AM
mmm relish.

cave man kid
08-30-2013, 03:24 PM
I wonder if the admins just don't care or are not allowed to answer the op's original question

size16
08-30-2013, 03:29 PM
with this an the disastrous update for Android - Gree employees are noticeably absent on the forum.

mxz
08-30-2013, 03:29 PM
I wonder if the admins just don't care or are not allowed to answer the op's original questionGuarantee you the admins have no idea what he's talking about. CJ probably doesn't even understand it. Heck, the programmers might not even understand what's happening...

cave man kid
08-30-2013, 03:35 PM
Guarantee you the admins have no idea what he's talking about. CJ probably doesn't even understand it. Heck, the programmers might not even understand what's happening...

This data hacking or collection how ever you want to look at it has been going on for a long time and GREE has known about it so I don't think it should be too hard for a admin to find out what the official policy is

mxz
08-30-2013, 03:37 PM
This data hacking or collection how ever you want to look at it has been going on for a long time and GREE has known about it so I don't think it should be too hard for a admin to find out what the official policy isI could tell you what the policy is, too. And I'm pretty sure they wouldn't refer to it as "data hacking" - as that is something completely different.

Dipstik
08-30-2013, 03:40 PM
In the criminal justice world, we call this "plain view".

chemy
08-30-2013, 04:41 PM
Top 25 team here a bunch of battles in a row and never once used nor know anything about it... Don't say all top use it. We consistently finish 12-17 and no cheaters in our group.

Angel6ix6ix6
08-30-2013, 05:36 PM
Private info being released and shared. No permission given....... Lawyer up!

Green Drake
08-30-2013, 09:27 PM
I could tell you what the policy is, too. And I'm pretty sure they wouldn't refer to it as "data hacking" - as that is something completely different.
It really is not difficult to read the terms of service page. The problem lies in how some of those terms can be interpreted. -----use or distribute cheats,exploits, automation software, bots, hacks mods, or any unauthorized third party software designed to modify any users experience with the service-----
This one seems pretty self explanatory. Extracting user data certainly sounds like exploiting the system to me.

cave man kid
08-30-2013, 10:13 PM
The point being if this is against the tos then why is GREE not saying so and even let a thread stay on the forum to promote it

Green Drake
08-31-2013, 08:41 AM
Bump still waiting on admin response.

mxz
08-31-2013, 08:47 AM
It really is not difficult to read the terms of service page. The problem lies in how some of those terms can be interpreted. -----use or distribute cheats,exploits, automation software, bots, hacks mods, or any unauthorized third party software designed to modify any users experience with the service-----
This one seems pretty self explanatory. Extracting user data certainly sounds like exploiting the system to me.Nothing against you, but its obvious you don't understand what's happening.

There's a decent amount of people who do and not one thinks this is in the top 10 problems in CC. Like cave man said - the admins know this is happening and haven't nuked the thread like they do with cheat/glitch/hack threads.

cave man kid
09-03-2013, 05:05 PM
With a&f back maybe she can answer this

Swedevil
09-03-2013, 05:32 PM
In the criminal justice world, we call this "plain view".
You sir are solely mistaken.
This involves digging to view. Take a car for instance. You can't tell how much oil is in the car, or how clean the engine is, or what modifications have been made to the engine or what's in the trunk WITHOUT opening the hood and trunk. This is not a plain view search as it is NOT in plain view to an officer or anyone average citizen from where he/she stands. Opening the hood or trunk would require one of three things, suspicion, a warrant or the right to do so given by an owner or occupant.

Being that in the terms of service, gree clearly states that they are the sole owner of each character and anything dealing with the game..I haven't seen them give permission to anyone, nor have I seen anything that gives you reasonable suspicion to 'look under the hood', I'm assuming anyone that is doing so has a warrant or is breaking the law.


@OP-
Check your facts and do some research before accusing. Brewskis do not and will not use exploits, cheats, hacks, or any database that could be considered as improper use. And to clarify, we have been and always will be top 25.

(BF) Tuna
09-03-2013, 06:00 PM
to pull data using a program from other peoples "supposed to be private phones".

AKA - Hacking.

Definition of "hacker" (from wikipedia)- a hacker is someone who seeks and exploits weaknesses in a computer system or computer network.


Secure your game GREE



With a&f back maybe she can answer this

It's amazing she hasn't yet... Unless GREE is just avoiding this glaring issue altogether.


Extracting user data certainly sounds like exploiting the system to me.

Bingo. Now, A&F, post the official word from GREE. Please and thanks.

Dipstik
09-03-2013, 06:06 PM
You sir are solely mistaken.
This involves digging to view. Take a car for instance. You can't tell how much oil is in the car, or how clean the engine is, or what modifications have been made to the engine or what's in the trunk WITHOUT opening the hood and trunk. This is not a plain view search as it is NOT in plain view to an officer or anyone average citizen from where he/she stands. Opening the hood or trunk would require one of three things, suspicion, a warrant or the right to do so given by an owner or occupant.

Not just mistaken, but "solely mistaken," huh? Your analogy to a car search would be more appropriate if we're talking about the police opening their OWN hood or trunk. I can promise you that if a criminal prosecution in the united states ever hinged on the police doing exactly what we're talking about here, they would not need a warrant to do it, and the reason would be the plain view doctrine.

dispohero
09-04-2013, 12:15 PM
actually, the question of plain view in context of electronic data has not been fully resolved by the courts.

an officer would not be using his sight WITHOUT AID to get this info, and as such, it can be argued that its not in plain view.

Dipstik
09-04-2013, 01:34 PM
The open question regarding plain view of electronic data deals with an officer searching a computer for one type of data (drug records) and therefore getting to see every piece of electric data on the system (porn?). If you send a text message to the wrong number and it pops up on a police officer's phone, they don't need a warrant to see it. This is similar. If you don't want me to see data, don't send it unencrypted to my device.

Edit: Also, as a defense attorney I'd love to see the courts limit the plain view doctrine for electronic records, but I really don't think it's as open a question as you think, either. People are making the argument, but good luck. You can't tell an officer to close his eyes when he sees something.

dispohero
09-04-2013, 02:04 PM
that's not the only open question and this isn't a case of someone sending their info to the wrong place. this is a case of a third-party intercepting data. without digging through all the references to verify, i'd link it to AZ v Hicks (a step has to be performed to make this info plainly visible).

Dipstik
09-04-2013, 02:24 PM
No, it's really not 3rd party data intercepting software. I don't think you know what we're talking about here. The information is sent right to your phone intentionally and unencrypted. You just need to know how to look at it.

Green Drake
09-04-2013, 03:02 PM
No, it's really not 3rd party data intercepting software. I don't think you know what we're talking about here. The information is sent right to your phone intentionally and unencrypted. You just need to know how to look at it.
Is there a special program that needs to be used to view this info?

Dipstik
09-04-2013, 03:24 PM
Obviously. Software is usually the interface between data packets and people.

Green Drake
09-04-2013, 03:32 PM
Obviously. Software is usually the interface between data packets and people.
So someone developed software to be able to view this info?

Dipstik
09-04-2013, 03:42 PM
I don't think it was developed specifically for crime city, but there is software that detects all of the random data flowing into and out of your device. Just make your point. Waiting for you to claim that it's "hacking" to look at this data.

Green Drake
09-04-2013, 03:49 PM
I don't think it was developed specifically for crime city, but there is software that detects all of the random data flowing into and out of your device. Just make your point. Waiting for you to claim that it's "hacking" to look at this data.
It does not matter what it was developed for......capturing data that is not accessible by using outside sources is against the TOS for gree.
While the application and use may be different from someone mining credit card numbers from online retail stores the principal remains the same. You are accessing information that is not yours. So yes to me that is hacking. Not sure how it can be construed any different. The defense you don't understand what is happening is inadequate for me.

dgwalker
09-04-2013, 04:51 PM
Writing software to capture this data and interpret it would be considered "hacking". That being said, it is not the illegal sort of hacking that is done to break into a website and steal information. This type of hacking is more akin to modding your car with fancy parts and customizing it.

-Dgwalker


I don't think it was developed specifically for crime city, but there is software that detects all of the random data flowing into and out of your device. Just make your point. Waiting for you to claim that it's "hacking" to look at this data.

Dipstik
09-04-2013, 05:12 PM
Or more like using a radio to listen to police dispatch or using a radar detector in your car. Anyway, I give up. This is obviously a difference of opinion that won't be bridged by facts or analogies. It's not illegal, I don't call it unethical, I don't see how it's against TOS, and no one with any authority has spoken up about it. I'm not going to argue about it any more.

Gingeasian
09-04-2013, 05:45 PM
wow never seen Dippy so serious on the forum

Dipstik
09-04-2013, 06:09 PM
wow never seen Dippy so serious on the forum

Never? I doubt that.

BigMoney
09-04-2013, 06:28 PM
wow never seen Dippy so serious on the forum

Dipstik's talking a lot of sense in this topic. It is quite strange, isn't it? :rolleyes:

Green Drake
09-04-2013, 06:28 PM
It seems to me that the only people that are defending this are the ones from the syndicates that are known to have utilized the software....a means to justify their actions?
You assume that gree's silence means that they condone the action? Why have they not spoken up either way to give their stance. I interpret it to mean that they fear gold sales would be diminished if it became known that their policy was to do nothing regarding random players knowing other players spending habits.
I also never claimed that the action was illegal. It is however a violation of the TOS if you actually read them. However I guess anyone can twist those words to fit their definition. I can only assume that is what you think I have done with them.
I know the policy is not to discuss others accounts but I question why the person that accessed my info and posted it on my wall is no longer active after being reported. I don't know if there were other issues with him or if he was banned for hacking my info.

This thread has been up for a good bit of time. Really wish that the mods would contribute something constructive as this is an issue that people feel strongly about.

BigMoney
09-04-2013, 06:30 PM
It seems to me that the only people that are defending this are the ones from the syndicates that are known to have utilized the software....a means to justify their actions?
You assume that gree's silence means that they condone the action? Why have they not spoken up either way to give their stance. I interpret it to mean that they fear gold sales would be diminished if it became known that their policy was to do nothing regarding random players knowing other players spending habits.
I also never claimed that the action was illegal. It is however a violation of the TOS if you actually read them. However I guess anyone can twist those words to fit their definition. I can only assume that is what you think I have done with them.
I know the policy is not to discuss others accounts but I question why the person that accessed my info and posted it on my wall is no longer active after being reported. I don't know if there were other issues with him or if he was banned for hacking my info.

This thread has been up for a good bit of time. Really wish that the mods would contribute something constructive as this is an issue that people feel strongly about.

I don't know if you know this, but you seem to have 21 posts that all say the same thing.

Green Drake
09-04-2013, 06:33 PM
I don't know if you know this, but you seem to have 21 posts that all say the same thing.
Not sure if you know this....it is because my question has yet to be answered.

BigMoney
09-04-2013, 06:41 PM
Not sure if you know this....it is because my question has yet to be answered.

I believe you need to rehash the same argument 28 more times before you will get a response.

bald zeemer
09-04-2013, 06:47 PM
And it won't be. You've decided to grab onto a months old issue and make it a personal crusade. Hopefully Gree continue to ignore you, and focus their effort on some of the real issues in the game.

Dipstik
09-04-2013, 06:52 PM
Vietnam visa is exempted for which cases?
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+1. Extra #smug.

Green Drake
09-04-2013, 07:05 PM
Yeah because the same threads are never rehashed on the board. I was not aware of the issue until it happened to me. Since I am not the one that started this or the other thread concerning this I guess I am not the only one that has issue. But I do thank you for your perspective.

mxz
09-04-2013, 07:50 PM
Lot of butthurt over someone knowing your skill point (useless) allocation.

If there's one thing you can learn from the senior folks here its that Gree doesn't care.

Legen...dary
09-04-2013, 08:16 PM
I stopped on Page 5 when ITT; people argue with a lawyer without even understanding the complexities of the situation.

GREE could easily say that this violates their ToS. Cataloging this data for use could be considered to violate the TOS. The distribution of this info to bypass the (LOL) "safeguards" (of it not being shown in-game) of rivals' "private" data (in-game, standard gameplay, not your personal private info / rights violations) for your use to "modify their experience" may violate the TOS. This is not a criminal matter. This is someone looking at the unencrypted data traveling over their router, in their house. At the very best, GREE could attempt to create some way of finding them and banning them.


It really is not difficult to read the terms of service page. The problem lies in how some of those terms can be interpreted. -----use or distribute cheats,exploits, automation software, bots, hacks mods, or any unauthorized third party software designed to modify any users experience with the service-----
This one seems pretty self explanatory. Extracting user data certainly sounds like exploiting the system to me.

So gree has the right to boot them off the server. Good luck.

Green Drake
09-04-2013, 08:28 PM
Not a lawyer nor do I claim to be which is why I am requesting clarification. Doesn't sit well when it happened to me. I believe they did boot the user that did it to me but not positive.
Also believes it does give an advantage to the groups using it.

Dipstik
09-04-2013, 09:33 PM
He's not talking about you, greenie. And I suspect were probably both lawyers.

Rebels
09-04-2013, 09:52 PM
Gree just need to make it so the data cant be read.

Or with my marketing hat on they should sell 'blocking devices' 250 gold should do it.

Swedevil
09-04-2013, 10:04 PM
He's not talking about you, greenie. And I suspect were probably both lawyers.
Remind me to never meet you in court. You'll twist every word in my reports to read whatever you want it to say..fight for it with us one day...not against us **** Deguerin...or would you rather save the bankers and Enron again...lol

Dipstik
09-04-2013, 10:10 PM
Remind me to never meet you in court. You'll twist every word in my reports to read whatever you want it to say..fight for it with us one day...not against us **** Deguerin...or would you rather save the bankers and Enron again...lol

You a cop? Pfft. :)

TMI
09-04-2013, 10:17 PM
Please note that this message is not saying that ppl should be banned or GREE is bad, or anything like that. It is for the question: Is this whole data collection thing a violation of TOS?

Under the TOS webpage it says you cannot:

use or distribute cheats, exploits, automation software, bots, hacks, mods or any unauthorized third party software designed to modify any user’s experience with the Service.

In relevant short form: You cannot Use or distribute any unauthorized third party software designed to modify any user's experience with the Service.

Can someone who doesn't believe that this is violation of TOS specifically explain where my logic or understanding is incorrect?

Use or distribute: yes, that has happened, according to what ppl have openly said on the forum

unauthorized third party software: I believe it is unauthorized by GREE. (GREE hasn't said if it is or isn't. Although I believe someone has already admitted to creating it, but that doesn't necessarily exclude it being authorized by GREE).
and I'm not 100% sure but,
I believe it is a third party software (I've never used the program, so I don't know if it is or isn't),
Again, I could be wrong in both assumptions.

designed to modify any user’s experience with the Service: I don't know about this actually. But I'll assume it's purpose was DESIGNED for that
to MODIFY any user's experience with the Service. We already have heard from numerous ppl that have used this software that it has modified their experience.

Please, no Ad Hominems or other fallicies. I really would like to know where my logic and/or reasoning is broken down or flawed.

The only things I can see is that if it WASN'T actually DESIGNED to do what it is doing, or if it IS an authorized software, or if it is NOT a third party software.

Thank you :)

Again, this is not asking whether or not ppl or syndicates should be banned. I doubt GREE would be able to prove who has used this or who is using this currently. It's not like a G**** hacker where other users can plainly see.

Swedevil
09-04-2013, 10:21 PM
You a cop? Pfft. :)
Not a cop...but another form of law enforcement and we'll leave that one alone Johnnie Cochran

bald zeemer
09-04-2013, 10:59 PM
designed to modify any user’s experience with the Service: I don't know about this actually. But I'll assume it's purpose was DESIGNED for that
to MODIFY any user's experience with the Service. We already have heard from numerous ppl that have used this software that it has modified their experience.

This is the entire point of contention, you cannot just assume the argument.

Having ones data collected does not directly modify the user experience. This is clear, as many of the people on this thread suddenly up in arms only just found out about it, despite the fact that the collection occurred months ago.

The argument therefore is whether the software indirectly affects the user experience, and to what extent indirect effects are covered by the TOS.

Now that we've framed the question I invite anyone who believes they've had their experience indirectly affected to state their experience.

Personally I know my data was collected and read, and am unaware of any alteration of my experience at all. I would suggest that I would be a more likely target than the average player, given the personnel involved at the time of initial creation.

Angel6ix6ix6
09-04-2013, 11:08 PM
It's hacking and the players involved need to be banned. In fact it's information theft and authorities need to be informed. We don't know what other info has been stolen. Maybe credit card info which resulted in illegal purchases.
Lawyer up, class action suit on the way!

BigMoney
09-04-2013, 11:10 PM
It's hacking and the players involved need to be banned. In fact it's information theft and authorities need to be informed. We don't know what other info has been stolen. Maybe credit card info which resulted in illegal purchases.
Lawyer up, class action suit on the way!

Hey, I know a "lawyer" you could talk to.

Mistress Nikita
09-04-2013, 11:15 PM
It's hacking and the players involved need to be banned. In fact it's information theft and authorities need to be informed. We don't know what other info has been stolen. Maybe credit card info which resulted in illegal purchases.
Lawyer up, class action suit on the way!

You may want to delete your post. Threatening lawsuits is generally frowned upon.

Dipstik
09-04-2013, 11:16 PM
It's hacking and the players involved need to be banned. In fact it's information theft and authorities need to be informed. We don't know what other info has been stolen. Maybe credit card info which resulted in illegal purchases.
Lawyer up, class action suit on the way!

Speaking of TOS violations...

Mistress Nikita
09-04-2013, 11:17 PM
Speaking of TOS violations...

Too slow!

extracharacters

TMI
09-04-2013, 11:37 PM
This is the entire point of contention, you cannot just assume the argument.

Having ones data collected does not directly modify the user experience. This is clear, as many of the people on this thread suddenly up in arms only just found out about it, despite the fact that the collection occurred months ago.

The argument therefore is whether the software indirectly affects the user experience, and to what extent indirect effects are covered by the TOS.

Now that we've framed the question I invite anyone who believes they've had their experience indirectly affected to state their experience.

Personally I know my data was collected and read, and am unaware of any alteration of my experience at all. I would suggest that I would be a more likely target than the average player, given the personnel involved at the time of initial creation.

Thank you bald zeemer, I always appreciate your insight.
I agree that just HAVING the data MAY not modify the players game experience. I would like to give an example, however, of how this third party software CAN modify the user's experience, thus violating TOS.
If a player (let's call him/her player A) uses this third party software to find out when another player (let's call him/her player B) collects their buildings. Player A can now specifically search for player B at specific times and can rob player B with greater chances than if he didn't use the third party software, and thus player A's game experience has been modified. Also, player B has a modified game experience, although he/she may not know it unfortunately, because player B now has a greater likelihood of having their buildings successfully robbed, compared to if player A did not use this third party software.

I don't think it can be argued, that in my example, user experience has been modified by the use of this third party software.
So I guess the question of whether or not it is a violation of GREE's TOS can be narrowed down to:
Does the third party software HAVE to ALWAYS modify user's experience or that only if it is CAPABLE or POSSIBLE of modifying user's experience?

Edit: going to bed. But I look forward to yours and anyone else's thoughtful insight.

bald zeemer
09-05-2013, 02:38 AM
If a player (let's call him/her player A) uses this third party software to find out when another player (let's call him/her player B) collects their buildings. Player A can now specifically search for player B at specific times and can rob player B with greater chances than if he didn't use the third party software, and thus player A's game experience has been modified.

This is where we get to the nub.

We are starting to stretch "modified game experience" beyond the strictest interpretation. Clearly the most limited reading of it refers to modifying the mechanics of gameplay (ie, altering code so that jobs drop leaderboard items as loot, etc). This is clearly the main intent of the clause in the TOS. To go beyond this we have to decide whether "modified game experience" means "alteration of future outcomes" in a broader sense. There are two problems with doing this. The first is that it may well (and I believe that it does) fall outside of the intent of the clause - so even if you make a compelling case for it Gree still have no incentive to move forward, because they have TOS to protect their platform, not to fully impose all powers granted by it whenever possible. The second is that it starts making innocuous and common third party software fall within the clause. Does the use of chat apps by a syndicate affect gameplay? Undoubtedly. Does the use of timers affect gameplay? Undoubtedly. Hood planners, boss calculators, LTB calculators, the list goes on.

zwiswoo
09-05-2013, 03:43 AM
Does the use of chat apps by a syndicate affect gameplay? Undoubtedly. Does the use of timers affect gameplay? Undoubtedly. Hood planners, boss calculators, LTB calculators, the list goes on.

Sorry, this is the sort of amoral sophistry that can only be produced by self-interest. Wiresharking game data to snoop on other players isn't like using a stopwatch, a chat program or a spreadsheet. It. Simply. Isn't. Only a person kicking up dust to obfuscate matters would make such a suggestion. What a pity to see such self-serving twaddle from senior players.

A&F, now that you're back from your vacation, please provide a response to the question: is this stuff kosher under game rules? If so, we need to all know it, so we can all use these tools or generate our own. It isn't fair to have different rules for top players, and gray areas (and areas that people can pretend are gray, as here) don't do anyone favors.

bald zeemer
09-05-2013, 03:53 AM
Sorry, this is the sort of amoral sophistry that can only be produced by self-interest. Wiresharking game data to snoop on other players isn't like using a stopwatch, a chat program or a spreadsheet. It. Simply. Isn't.
We're discussing whether the database constitutes a violation of TOS, not making moral comparisons.

I don't think that the TOS prohibition on modifying gameplay is meant to cover actions that merely have an effect on the results of gameplay. Thus I pointed out that other third party software affects the results of gameplay. At no point did I say that the use of chat apps, etc was in any way a bad thing, or that the use of the database was a good thing.
And for the life of me I can't see what self interest I'm supposedly serving here. I was a player on the receiving end of this. I simply don't care, and am absolutely stunned that others are trying to make this an issue again after it's been dead and buried for ages, when it was barely an issue at the time.


If so, we need to all know it, so we can all use these tools or generate our own. It isn't fair to have different rules for top players, and gray areas (and areas that people can pretend are gray, as here) don't do anyone favors.

It's been a long time since anyone actually used it. So you have your "level playing field". I still can't fathom how you think this provides any sort of benefit anyway.

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 04:43 AM
It's been a long time since anyone actually used it. So you have your "level playing field". I still can't fathom how you think this provides any sort of benefit anyway.

I guess this would depend on your definition of a long time. My info was obtained mid July of this year and posted on my wall by a member of Rogues.
I also have a difficult time believing that it was only used to root out cheaters by them. It seems that it would be a perfect recruitment tool to use. Get attacked by a player with decent stats, obtain his gold usage and make a push to recruit them.
Gree should be encrypting this data but people also do not have the right to mine it either.



And dip pretty sure I will never be mistaken for a lawyer. Kidding.

BigMoney
09-05-2013, 04:56 AM
It seems that it would be a perfect recruitment tool to use. Get attacked by a player with decent stats, obtain his gold usage and make a push to recruit them.

Yes, because it would be impossible to figure out who the big gold users are in the game otherwise. I don't disagree with you that people shouldn't be accessing this sort of data, but you don't make much of a compelling argument, to be perfectly honest.

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 05:05 AM
I don't have to. The fact that this thread is still alive suits my purposes.

zwiswoo
09-05-2013, 05:10 AM
We're discussing whether the database constitutes a violation of TOS, not making moral comparisons. I don't think that the TOS prohibition on modifying gameplay is meant to cover actions that merely have an effect on the results of gameplay. Thus I pointed out that other third party software affects the results of gameplay.


It's not really an improvement on your last post to clarify that in your view it's only the terms of service that make an equivalence between a building spreadsheet and a database snoop. This alone should suffice to say your read of the TOS is absurd. Setting a timer to collect buildings/open boxes isn't even the same sort of thing as accessing game databases to get info on other players that the game interface won't give you, and whose hiddenness indeed is the basis for PVP. Like I said, this is sophistry designed to muddy what is clear to others, and (I suspect) still is to you. But your words speak for themselves.


I still can't fathom how you think this provides any sort of benefit anyway.

This has already been explained on the very first page. It completely changes the nature of robbing, or of scouting in wars, if some players can rapidly and at no cost find good targets and avoid bad ones. There too I see you showed up to provide a response that engaged only superficially with the substance, while making ostentatious declarations about how this stuff doesn't matter anyway. For something that doesn't "matter", and that seems pretty dodgy on the face of it, you sure spend a lot of time defending it.

Butt Futter
09-05-2013, 05:14 AM
The top syndicates already know who the good targets are in all the other syndicates. The database is pointless and doesn't give out any pertinant info.

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 05:18 AM
Argument really isn't what it is used for. It is that it exists.

If no advantage is given why is it still being used?

Ragmondino
09-05-2013, 05:21 AM
Did I read right earier that beardy got banned?

sister morphine
09-05-2013, 05:22 AM
Who says it is? That's all supposition by the OP. Matt has stated several times that Rogues - the only syn who are acknowledged users of such data, collected by a now former member for purposes of winkling out cheats - are no longer using the information.

Ragmondino
09-05-2013, 05:22 AM
I'm pretty sure everyone has said it isn't still being used.

sister morphine
09-05-2013, 05:24 AM
Did I read right earier that beardy got banned?
From the forum?

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 05:26 AM
Who says it is? That's all supposition by the OP. Matt has stated several times that Rogues - the only syn who are acknowledged users of such data, collected by a now former member for purposes of winkling out cheats - are no longer using the information.
My info was mined and posted with accurate data in mid July, by beardy then a member of rogues. What the consequences for him....can't say. He is no longer in rogues and I was told that his account was frozen by Matt.
Maybe beardy can post here as I know he has an account and has viewed my profile.

Ragmondino
09-05-2013, 05:27 AM
From the forum?

I thought they said from the game.

Ragmondino
09-05-2013, 05:28 AM
Matt froze his Account or told you he had his account frozen?

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 05:31 AM
Matt told me his account was frozen by gree. I turned in a ticket after beardy posted all of my information on my wall in July.

bald zeemer
09-05-2013, 05:32 AM
It's not really an improvement on your last post to clarify that in your view it's only the terms of service that make an equivalence between a building spreadsheet and a database snoop. This alone should suffice to say your read of the TOS is absurd.

You have a thoroughly bizarre, and frightening, belief in how legal documents ought to be interpreted.



It completely changes the nature of robbing, or of scouting in wars, if some players can rapidly and at no cost find good targets and avoid bad ones.

It absolutely does not.

I could tell you off the top of my head a fairly accurate approximation of the stats and IPH of near on every member of the top 3. The scouting process if done manually takes about 3 minutes the first time you fight a given team.

And again, any 3rd party app that allows sharing of scouting information between teams has the exact effect you are claiming is so unbalancing. To clarify: No, I am not placing moral equivalence between methods, simply stating that if you believe that the effect is the concern then other methods can do the same thing. Furthermore, the other methods are actually being used, and widely. As opposed to the database, which is not now, nor ever has been used for these purposes.


For something that doesn't "matter", and that seems pretty dodgy on the face of it, you sure spend a lot of time defending it.
Because it affects something that does matter - customer service response times. If people start flooding support with tickets about this non-issue then real tickets will take longer to get resolved. If admins waste time responding to these questions, its time they aren't responding to other relevant questions, or moderating the board, or performing the other game-related aspects of their jobs.

Ragmondino
09-05-2013, 05:34 AM
There this player ingame, Balthazar, I heard he is the brains behind the database :)

zwiswoo
09-05-2013, 05:38 AM
I could tell you off the top of my head a fairly accurate approximation of the stats and IPH of near on every member of the top 3. The scouting process if done manually takes about 3 minutes the first time you fight a given team.


FFS there are people who aren't in the Three Teams of Greatness. Something can matter and not affect You up in your chalet spending a thousand bucks per battle. The fact that the ten or twenty people with 5 million stats all know each other is, well, fun for you. Hope y'all have fun at your sleepovers. Down here nearer the ground, even for most top 100 or top 50 syndicates (ditto for moderately high stat players), getting scout info or good rob targets without using time/health/gold is a pretty huge deal. Believe it or not, for most teams, time is not the factor limiting how much they scout.

The indication from Drake is that this software seems to have percolated through to the leaders of top 25 syndicates, and it seems like merely a matter of time before it diffuses down much further. All I'm asking for is that A&F or another moderator make explicit whether this sort of database access is allowed by Gree. That's it. You don't wanna know, don't read the answer. I promise I won't shout it into your ears.



If admins waste time responding to these questions, its time they aren't responding to other relevant questions, or moderating the board, or performing the other game-related aspects of their jobs.

Yes, A&F reading the question in my original post and giving a quick ten word answer is what's going to tip Gree service over the edge. That's the last straw that will ensure that relevant questions cannot be answered, so the board will fall to pieces, cats will breed with dogs and anarchy will be loosed upon the world. So you altruistically enter the thread, making it longer and longer to wade through, so A&F will be spared the necessity of reading it. Your solicitude and concern for A&F's eyes and typing fingers is touching.

Ragmondino
09-05-2013, 05:41 AM
How many times. It is not at use in hardly any syndicates.
1-3 syndicates may of had use. But that is all. Don't believe everything someone comes on here and says with no actual evidence.

Butt Futter
09-05-2013, 05:42 AM
FFS there are people who aren't in the Three Teams of Greatness. Something can matter and not affect You up in your chalet spending a thousand bucks per battle. The fact that the ten or twenty people with 5 million stats all know each other is, well, fun for you. Hope y'all have fun at your sleepovers. Down here nearer the ground, even for most top 100 or top 50 syndicates (ditto for moderately high stat players), getting scout info or good rob targets without using time/health/gold is a pretty huge deal.

The indication from Drake is that this software seems to have percolated through to the leaders of top 25 syndicates, and it seems like merely a matter of time before it diffuses down much further.

This database doesn't do anything. What about the countless group chats that involves a bunch of syndicates sharing war intel? That is much more efficient way to share intel.

Ragmondino
09-05-2013, 05:45 AM
I don't think anything we say will stop him.
He has formed a view, a wrong view, and no matter how much he is told and how much info he is given, his view won't change. We would be better just ignoring this thread now and it'll go away. Some people are just not that bright.

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 05:46 AM
This database doesn't do anything. What about the countless group chats that involves a bunch of syndicates sharing war intel? That is much more efficient way to share intel.
Still completely missing the point. It is a question of how the information was obtained.

BigMoney
09-05-2013, 05:49 AM
The indication from Drake is that this software seems to have percolated through to the leaders of top 25 syndicates, and it seems like merely a matter of time before it diffuses down much further. All I'm asking for is that A&F or another moderator make explicit whether this sort of database access is allowed by Gree. That's it. You don't wanna know, don't read the answer. I promise I won't shout it into your ears.

Yeah, and he's clearly demonstrated himself as a reliable source of info on the matter.

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 05:52 AM
Only info I have posted is the email sent to me by Matt Thomas. He made the claims that the info was shared with the top 25 syndicates not me.

BigMoney
09-05-2013, 05:58 AM
Only info I have posted is the email sent to me by Matt Thomas. He made the claims that the info was shared with the top 25 syndicates not me.

Well, goes to show you that you can't believe everything you read.

Ragmondino
09-05-2013, 06:02 AM
BM just leave them to it.
They'll believe what they want. However much truth is in it.
No point giving them any help or facts because they are stuck in there ways.

zwiswoo
09-05-2013, 06:04 AM
Well, goes to show you that you can't believe everything you read.

No doubt, but email quotes from one of the top players of this game count for something surely. I still don't see why anyone should oppose an admin stating Gree policy on this. Zeemer's given a characteristically dissembling argument on that one. You know, he's heroically preventing people from wasting time typing ten words. If you buy that, shrug.

Ragmondino
09-05-2013, 06:09 AM
No doubt, but email quotes from one of the top players of this game count for something surely. I still don't see why anyone should oppose an admin stating Gree policy on this. Zeemer's given a characteristically dissembling argument on that one. You know, he's heroically preventing people from wasting time typing ten words. If you buy that, shrug.

The fact you claim he is one of the games top players shows how little you actually know.

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 06:10 AM
Well, goes to show you that you can't believe everything you read.
No worries. I don't. Which is why I don't believe most of the claims made in this thread.

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 06:12 AM
The fact you claim he is one of the games top players shows how little you actually know.
Would leader of one of the top syndicates be more acceptable to you?

zwiswoo
09-05-2013, 06:12 AM
The fact you claim he is one of the games top players shows how little you actually know.

You acutely get right to the meat of my comment with that. Good job sir. To me, yes, someone in a top syndicate counts as at a worthwhile first source on this, especially since nothing described seems hard to do.

While I have your attention, what's your argument for why A&F or Sirius shouldn't state the answer? Are you protecting them from RSI as well?

Ragmondino
09-05-2013, 06:22 AM
They won't answer because they have more important things to deal with. This isn't a big matter. Is it right to do? no. Does it make a big difference? No.
They haven't hacked or cheated. It's not even in use anymore. The guy who created it is nowhere to he seen anymore.
Gree have more important things to spend there time on. Like players who hack there stats, steal other players gold, actually making the game work properly without glitches and mess ups.
Yes he is a leader of rogues, one of the higher placed syns. No he isn't one of the games top players.
Most people in the game have nicer had or will never have access to this. Your falling maybe 100-150 players tops.
Get over it.

bald zeemer
09-05-2013, 06:26 AM
FFS there are people who aren't in the Three Teams of Greatness. Something can matter and not affect You up in your chalet spending a thousand bucks per battle.

Did you not just say that it was unfair that some people had it and others did, because it provided an unfair advantage?


If so, we need to all know it, so we can all use these tools or generate our own. It isn't fair to have different rules for top players

Yes, you did.

So if it were being used the way you are saying it is, then it is providing the information that I just said I could provide from personal knowledge.


The indication from Drake is that this software seems to have percolated through to the leaders of top 25 syndicates, and it seems like merely a matter of time before it diffuses down much further.

The information from the guy who didn't know about it - despite it being openly discussed on the forums, and everywhere else - until after the whole issue had died, tells you that its percolating down? Sorry if I don't find that to be a major issue.

To clarify: It has not been passed around, it is not spreading. It is dead and buried, and has been for some time.


No doubt, but email quotes from one of the top players of this game count for something surely. I still don't see why anyone should oppose an admin stating Gree policy on this. Zeemer's given a characteristically dissembling argument on that one. You know, he's heroically preventing people from wasting time typing ten words. If you buy that, shrug.

The reason claimed by MT and others for the database was that it was used to find cheaters. There was a cheater-identification chat with many of the t25 teams represented. Cheaters found via the database were posted in the chat. Suspected cheaters from the chat were checked with the database.

You don't believe the claimed use, but you do believe that the people in the cheater chat had access to the whole database? I really don't understand where you're coming from. Either MT is a reliable witness, or he is not. You can't cherry pick out-of-context facts and disregard the rest.


To me, yes, someone in a top syndicate counts as at a worthwhile first source on this.

Now you've got me completely flummoxed. I've been in 2 of the top 3 syndicates, but you're not believing a word I say.

Dipstik
09-05-2013, 06:28 AM
You acutely get right to the meat of my comment with that. Good job sir. To me, yes, someone in a top syndicate counts as at a worthwhile first source on this, especially since nothing described seems hard to do.

While I have your attention, what's your argument for why A&F or Sirius shouldn't state the answer? Are you protecting them from RSI as well?

Has ANYONE here tried to argue that the mods shouldn't say something? A few people have said that green drake is an idiot for making such a big deal out of this, but that's not even close to the same thing.

Dipstik
09-05-2013, 06:31 AM
You can't cherry pick out-of-context facts and disregard the rest.


Maybe he's a social worker...

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 06:51 AM
Has ANYONE here tried to argue that the mods shouldn't say something? A few people have said that green drake is an idiot for making such a big deal out of this, but that's not even close to the same thing.
Sorry that you feel my questioning information being made public is idiotic. I have made every attempt to ascertain what occurred with my account privately and directly with gree. I have asked them repeatedly via email what information was available and accessible by beardy. I am not on this forum often so my apologies that this has been discussed in the past and i was unaware. Does a thread already exist where gree has commented on this?
This is not something that has happened in the distant past. It is occurring now. Since I do not participate in any such information gathering please forgive me questioning how it works and what information can be obtained. Apparently the people commenting on this thread know what information is contained in such database. I do not.

Ragmondino
09-05-2013, 06:52 AM
It was posted what info is available

zwiswoo
09-05-2013, 06:53 AM
Did you not just say that it was unfair that some people had it and others did, because it provided an unfair advantage?

Yes, you did.

So if it were being used the way you are saying it is, then it is providing the information that I just said I could provide from personal knowledge.


Your line of argument here is not even coherent. I said, for any tool like this the acceptability under TOS should be very clear and explicit. Otherwise only the shadier or more unscrupulous people use it. I also rejected your novel argument later that the tool doesn't matter, because top 3 syndicates are rich enough (basically) to not need it anyway. What contradiction you discern between these two statements I cannot begin to fathom. Frankly, there is none.


You don't believe the claimed use, but you do believe that the people in the cheater chat had access to the whole database? I really don't understand where you're coming from. Either MT is a reliable witness, or he is not. You can't cherry pick out-of-context facts and disregard the rest.

Now you've got me completely flummoxed. I've been in 2 of the top 3 syndicates, but you're not believing a word I say.

When someone says (and demonstrates) that he has a tool that supports all sorts of unexpected, even nefarious uses , I believe him readily, especially given the demonstration. When he or someone else says later that oh no, he doesn't cheat using the tool because he's all honest and stuff, I'm less inclined to take that on faith.

More to the point, when I know that this kind of access is possible, and that bad uses are not protected against, I want to know what the admins and company make of it, even though the great ones say they are pure as the driven snow.


yes I know the top 3 are so rich all such tools are meaningless to them. You've said this (and apparently I'm supposed to believe either everything or nothing you say.) I hope we won't need to re-argue your ridiculous point that the ability to scout every opponent team for free doesn't matter.

sister morphine
09-05-2013, 06:55 AM
Sorry that you feel my questioning information being made public is idiotic. I have made every attempt to ascertain what occurred with my account privately and directly with gree. I have asked them repeatedly via email what information was available and accessible by beardy. I am not on this forum often so my apologies that this has been discussed in the past and i was unaware. Does a thread already exist where gree has commented on this?
This is not something that has happened in the distant past. It is occurring now. Since I do not participate in any such information gathering please forgive me questioning how it works and what information can be obtained. Apparently the people commenting on this thread know what information is contained in such database. I do not.
In a previous discussion of this iteachem posted info on his own account gathered by this method and passed to him. I don't recall what the thread title was now, but you could try searching his posts (it was a very recent one) or pm him on the subject

zwiswoo
09-05-2013, 06:55 AM
Has ANYONE here tried to argue that the mods shouldn't say something? A few people have said that green drake is an idiot for making such a big deal out of this, but that's not even close to the same thing.

Both Zeemer and Ragmondino have said they want to avoid the admins making a statement on this, because it's such a big waste of company resources and time to state policy. Thanks for asking.

Dipstik
09-05-2013, 06:57 AM
Sorry that you feel my questioning information being made public is idiotic. I have made every attempt to ascertain what occurred with my account privately and directly with gree. I have asked them repeatedly via email what information was available and accessible by beardy. I am not on this forum often so my apologies that this has been discussed in the past and i was unaware. Does a thread already exist where gree has commented on this?
This is not something that has happened in the distant past. It is occurring now. Since I do not participate in any such information gathering please forgive me questioning how it works and what information can be obtained. Apparently the people commenting on this thread know what information is contained in such database. I do not.

I stopped reading at "idiotic."

If you're not actually reading my posts, I won't bother responding to you.

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 06:59 AM
In a previous discussion of this iteachem posted info on his own account gathered by this method and passed to him. I don't recall what the thread title was now, but you could try searching his posts (it was a very recent one) or pm him on the subject
Morphine I have read that post and had commented on it as well. Actually I believe that is where I originally posted Matt's email. It was started by someone other than iteachem and he commented showing his mined data as an example of what occurs. However I do not believe anyone from admin commented on that thread either. I have attempted to search for previous posts regarding this issue but have been unsuccessful. Thank you though.

Ragmondino
09-05-2013, 07:01 AM
Both Zeemer and Ragmondino have said they want to avoid the admins making a statement on this, because it's such a big waste of company resources and time to state policy. Thanks for asking.

I never said that. I purely said why they are not responding. I wish they would just so that you would stop whining.


Here is the file I was sent
https://www.dropbox.com/s/daco6lce66xn9hu/380946180485834369.htm

Also posted below. Game isn't too private if this info can be harvested


Player Info
Invite code: 847-233-708
Level: 209
Experience: 1,413,955
Mafia: 584 ( 453 henchmen )
Join date: 2011/08/13
Game loads: 11,811
Last load: 2013/05/19
Character Class: Goodfella
Is Banned: false
Is Muted: false
Is Test Account: false
Attack/Defense
Raw attack: 328,744
Server attack:
Attack:
Raw Defense: 307,695
Server defense: 443,986
Defense:
Building defense:
Skill Points
Attack: 316
Defense: 401
Stamina: 30
Energy: 1820
Free Skill Points: 0
Spent Skill Points: 627
Gold
Gold onhand: 0
Gold spent: 783,220
Respect
Respect onhand: 11,916
Respect earned: 409,918
Money
Total earned: 4,788,586,271
Money onhand: 106
Bank Balance: 56,485,095
Jobs: 79,850,752
From PVP: 80,814,775
From robbing: 777,265,607.0
PVP lost Att: 3,466,225
PVP Lost Def: 11,188,493
Lost to robs: 156,238,669
Jobs
Jobs completed: 29,320
Jobs failed: 0
Bosses Beaten: 3,375
PVP
Won: 79,565
Won as attacker: 73,851
Won as defender: 5,714
Lost: 10,925
Lost as attacker: 2,262
Lost as defender: 8,663
Robbery
Robs completed: 47,846
Robs failed: 959
Items
Items bought: 39,469
Guns bought: 1,846
Mele bought: 2,068
Armor bought: 3,044
Cars bought: 1,002
Buildings
Townname: Towerland
Buildings: 131
Buildings purchased: 291
Collect count: 31,320
Props purchased: 422
Expansions purchased: 22
Expansion direction: none
Building area: 1,348
Expansion width: 8
Expansion length: 14
Misc
Max health: 100
Current health: 0
VIP invites: 3
Unknown
Steel: 388
Diamond: 0

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 07:01 AM
I stopped reading at "idiotic."

If you're not actually reading my posts, I won't bother responding to you.
That would be very much appreciated. Thank you.

bald zeemer
09-05-2013, 07:03 AM
I said, for any tool like this the acceptability under TOS should be very clear and explicit.

I believe it is very clear. And it is clear that it is not, in fact, against TOS. You dismissed my reasoning because you find the database morally objectionable (not in itself a position I disagree with).

Surely what you really mean is that you believe this should be against TOS, and clearly stated as such within TOS.


I also rejected your novel argument later that the tool doesn't matter, because top 3 syndicates are rich enough (basically) to not need it anyway. What contradiction you discern between these two statements I cannot begin to fathom. Frankly, there is none.
You claimed that the information within the database had a significant effect on the game. I pointed out that extensive and invasive use of the database could have yielded pretty much the same information that everyone with access to the database had already. Hence, the database was not at all game changing. (In fact, I would argue it had very close to no effect whatsoever - which is why it was abandoned so quickly).


More to the point, when I know that this kind of access is possible, and that bad uses are not protected against, I want to know what the admins and company make of it, even though the great ones say they are pure as the driven snow

You're far, far closer to the real issue, now.

As I stated much earlier in the thread, the problem is that all this data is being sent out at all (along with other, far more sensitive data, which is sent out in tickets). Gree needs to solve it's data issues. That is a stone-cold fact. Gree most certainly do not need to continue their lax practices and patch up the aftermath with ad hoc misapplication of the TOS.

zwiswoo
09-05-2013, 07:05 AM
Has ANYONE here tried to argue that the mods shouldn't say something? A few people have said that green drake is an idiot for making such a big deal out of this, but that's not even close to the same thing.


Sorry that you feel my questioning information being made public is idiotic.


I stopped reading at "idiotic." If you're not actually reading my posts, I won't bother responding to you.

That is rather slippery of you Agent Starling. Reading quickly, one did surmise that you were calling Drake an idiot. In fact you were registering your strong, though subtle, protest at others unfairly calling Drake that. That, or you're producing logic and sentence chopping at levels unusual even for you.

sister morphine
09-05-2013, 07:39 AM
I believe it is very clear. And it is clear that it is not, in fact, against TOS.
TOS, like any legal document is only applicable to things as they stood at the time of writing, and possibilities which had come to the attention of the persons writing them.

If a data mining tool did not, then it could be considered an oversight and TOS needs updating to take it into account.

I'll just say that I agree totally with your previous post that Gree's sending out of unencrypted data is the real issue at stake here. That is what needs correcting.

Max Power
09-05-2013, 07:41 AM
IBTL

All your data are belong to us.

Dipstik
09-05-2013, 07:42 AM
Actually, I thought it was you that said the "idiotic" thing. Yeah, Green Drake really is an idiot. I take back my previous comment.

sister morphine
09-05-2013, 07:55 AM
IBTL

All your data are belong to us.
The security sensitive info routinely sent out with every email to and from support most certainly doesn't.

MattThomas08
09-05-2013, 08:01 AM
The fact you claim he is one of the games top players shows how little you actually know.

Hey wait just a minute.

Butt Futter
09-05-2013, 08:08 AM
Hey wait just a minute.

MT, I'd put you at least in the top 4000.

MattThomas08
09-05-2013, 08:11 AM
MT, I'd put you at least in the top 4000.

Thanks BF. Considering there are hundreds of thousands of players, that's gotta be upper 1%!

Besides, I'd like to imagine nobody has reached 1 mil stats much lower than L113 ;)

Butt Futter
09-05-2013, 08:13 AM
Thanks BF. Considering there are hundreds of thousands of players, that's gotta be upper 1%!

Besides, I'd like to imagine nobody has reached 1 mil stats much lower than L113 ;)


You set the standard for all hackers to top! :)

Ragmondino
09-05-2013, 08:43 AM
Hey wait just a minute.

You know I love you son..
But anyone putting an account in a top 3 will get them stats before long..
My KA are 1.5mil at level 93 :)
Pokes my tongue out at your meagre stats.

Swedevil
09-05-2013, 12:02 PM
Lets go Defense Attorney on this...
This information was used to 'clean up and keep the wrong people out of top syndicates' (or the few that used it at least), correct?
So, being that you are keeping the 'wrong players' - hackers, cheaters, time travelers, and whatnot; you yourself have crossed over the line to help clean up the game. This would be similar to a police officer going out and finding rapist in his off time and punishing him himself. Better yet, obtaining proof that was not gathered under reasonable aspects and eluding the rights set forth - even the criminals have those rights, to obtain this information and then putting him on the top of the suspect list or even turning what he found over to the DA for prosecution. These methods are often refereed to as "fruit of the poisonous tree". This in fact has affect the the cheaters, hackers, whatever else by exposing them and not allowing them in your syndicate by gaining evidence or fruit of the poisonous tree.

There have been in fact a few cases where one of these cheaters/hackers/or whatever were banned mid war. This is something that Gree does and is obviously procedure for them. These banned players during war then become a feast for anyone that wants to hit them as it's a guaranteed win and normally giving pretty decent Influence Points.

Thus, by using this information, you have now affected the cheater/hacker, the 59 other players on your syndicate and the thousands of players that would have a chance to hit this person during a war.

We can go another route and claim that you have affected another syndicate indirectly by pushing this person away and not warning everyone else so now this person goes to another syndicate that doesn't use these outside and improper methods to expose people. So now all 59 people on this syndicate are now affected by your turning away the cheater/hacker because you had information that you should never have been able to access.

If you want to be the self proclaimed savior of Crime City, think about this - a mob boss killing another mob boss will still get the same punishment according to your laws because its not WHO you commit the crime against, it's the fact that the murder was made. 2 wrongs do not make a right!

Don't ever hire my butt to defend you...if you're in the wrong, wear your scarlet letter.

On another note, I do now what information is collected because I was given a screen shot of ALL the information on me.

the_dude
09-05-2013, 12:06 PM
Tldr...........

Ragmondino
09-05-2013, 12:18 PM
It's a game. Not a court case.
People take this game way to seriously

Triga Treat
09-05-2013, 12:28 PM
Does this mean I am not allowed to use 3rd party software such as Groupme, Line, or Palringo to communicate with my team? Can I also not use google docs to track battle statistics?

I don't want to violate the TOS!

-Triga




Under the TOS webpage it says you cannot:

use or distribute cheats, exploits, automation software, bots, hacks, mods or any unauthorized third party software designed to modify any user’s experience with the Service.


unauthorized third party software: I believe it is unauthorized by GREE. (GREE hasn't said if it is or isn't. Although I believe someone has already admitted to creating it, but that doesn't necessarily exclude it being authorized by GREE).
and I'm not 100% sure but,
I believe it is a third party software (I've never used the program, so I don't know if it is or isn't),
Again, I could be wrong in both assumptions.

designed to modify any user’s experience with the Service: I don't know about this actually. But I'll assume it's purpose was DESIGNED for that
to MODIFY any user's experience with the Service. We already have heard from numerous ppl that have used this software that it has modified their experience.

TG3d
09-05-2013, 12:31 PM
It's a game. Not a court case.
People take this game way to seriously

.....I object!

Dipstik
09-05-2013, 12:33 PM
It's a game. Not a court case.
People take this game way to seriously

The man with the horrible pictures speaks truth!

Rebels
09-05-2013, 01:56 PM
No experty in law like some of y'all around here. Marketing is my game!

But wouldnt the fact data has been accessed about peoples private spending history be a privacy breach?
The other crap is just numbers, but real money information has been looked at and recodred.

I dont like the idea of people reading this data. Gree needs to tidy up their act so this cant be done. I dont think we can fully blame the few that have gone to this level but it is morally wrong IMO.

sister morphine
09-05-2013, 02:03 PM
.....I object!
Overruled! ;)

Dipstik
09-05-2013, 02:05 PM
No experty in law like some of y'all around here. Marketing is my game!

But wouldnt the fact data has been accessed about peoples private spending history be a privacy breach?
The other crap is just numbers, but real money information has been looked at and recodred.

I dont like the idea of people reading this data. Gree needs to tidy up their act so this cant be done. I dont think we can fully blame the few that have gone to this level but it is morally wrong IMO.

Oh it's absolutely a privacy breach.

Ragmondino
09-05-2013, 02:08 PM
The man with the horrible pictures speaks truth!

You surely can't be talking about me?

Pictures of teresasmother are beautiful...

Rebels
09-05-2013, 02:38 PM
Oh it's absolutely a privacy breach.

I need a visual response to your comment so I can determine your tone please :)

(BF) Tuna
09-05-2013, 03:09 PM
Idk why people have to come up with analogies of police searching cars & using courtroom assumptions to somehow make their "case"...

The fact of the matter remains that certain players are accessing player data beyond the means of what GREE intended for this game. If GREE wanted everyone to see an individual's spending habits or stat point distribution (etc etc) when we visited a rival's city, surely they would have implemented that from the start. Regardless to what the proponents of utilizing this 3rd party app are saying, this does alter a players experience whether it is apparent or not to the player that's getting shafted..

With that said, it's clearly a violation of the ToS & a moderator should have said, at the very beginning of this thread that, it is exactly that. Also that, GREE is working to curb the use of 3rd party software & that they're taking the proper steps to rectify the situation.

bald zeemer
09-05-2013, 03:24 PM
Again, in what way does it alter playing experience? Nobody so far has given an example of an altered playing experience - just some fairly tenuous claims as to how it might possibly be used to do so.

Dipstik
09-05-2013, 03:27 PM
Idk why people have to come up with analogies of police searching cars & using courtroom assumptions to somehow make their "case"...


My bad. I made a one-liner comment saying "In criminal justice, we call this 'plain view'" mostly trying to point out that there's no "hacking" involved. It's just a matter of reading information that gree is firing at your device completely unencrypted. It wasn't a perfect metaphor, and it just so happened that there was another lawyer in the room. I still stand by the point I was trying to make, but I didn't mean to start a legal argument over it :)

(BF) Tuna
09-05-2013, 03:39 PM
My bad. I made a one-liner comment saying "In criminal justice, we call this 'plain view'" mostly trying to point out that there's no "hacking" involved. It's just a matter of reading information that gree is firing at your device completely unencrypted. It wasn't a perfect metaphor, and it just so happened that there was another lawyer in the room. I still stand by the point I was trying to make, but I didn't mean to start a legal argument over it :)

Totally understand, and it is concerning that they're just sending unencrypted data like that left & right. Especially when considering that the game is tied to credit/debit cards for most serious players. Frankly, I can't blame those who are tech savvy enough to have come up with this.. Problem is, it's giving those who are utilizing this data collection a leg-up on their opponents. (Clearly it's giving them a leg-up otherwise it wouldn't be used or possibly even created in the first place)

@Bald.. I'm sure you're familiar enough with how this data-collection works (whether you use it or not) to understand that it does alter a player's experience. Both on the user's end and the person who's data is being deciphered. The whole snafu with MT's score was trivial... This, not so much.

I will add that, I don't feel there should be any serious repercussions for those who are able to collect data like this- so long as that's all that they're doing with this info. Afterall it's on GREE for not properly encrypting said data (and even then, a serious hacker could decrypt it). Those who are maliciously using this information, though, they need to be sorted out and removed from the game.

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 03:39 PM
Again, in what way does it alter playing experience? Nobody so far has given an example of an altered playing experience - just some fairly tenuous claims as to how it might possibly be used to do so.
I have stopped attacking or robbing anyone known to be rogue. Personally I don't want anyone knowing my spending habits. Since they are still using the program and don't have issues making it public I have had to alter my playing experience.

Dipstik
09-05-2013, 03:44 PM
I have stopped attacking or robbing anyone known to be rogue. Personally I don't want anyone knowing my spending habits. Since they are still using the program and don't have issues making it public I have had to alter my playing experience.

Just on a hunch and with no way to verify, I'd be willing to bet that not only do you have nowhere NEAR the stats required to attack anyone in that group, you probably can't name more than 4 of them.

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 03:46 PM
I have no problem robbing the rogues members that I know at my level.
Att-800k
Def-814k

Dipstik
09-05-2013, 03:48 PM
I have no problem robbing the rogues members that I know at my level.
Att-800k
Def-814k

OK... level and game name?

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 04:26 PM
Same name 187.
This actually all came about because I was going back and forth with a rogue player. When I saw his name on a pvp leader board I stopped.

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 04:42 PM
If your next question is how much gold have I spent I am not going to be happy.

Peppers
09-05-2013, 04:46 PM
I have stopped attacking or robbing anyone known to be rogue. Personally I don't want anyone knowing my spending habits. Since they are still using the program and don't have issues making it public I have had to alter my playing experience.

This is probably a good idea. An idea that all players should adhere to. Attack a Rogue and we will eat your children, savage your women, steal your car, sell your dog, and fart in your general direction. We are a scary lot.

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 04:49 PM
This is probably a good idea. An idea that all players should adhere to. Attack a Rogue and we will eat your children, savage your women, steal your car, sell your dog, and fart in your general direction. We are a scary lot.
Now I can actually laugh at the MP reference.
Or you could chose the avenue beardy decided to travel. Actually prefer the fart.

Peppers
09-05-2013, 04:50 PM
Now I can actually laugh at the MP reference.
Or you could chose the avenue beardy decided to travel. Actually prefer the fart.

Knock it off or I will taunt you a second time. :)

Rico_Suavi
09-05-2013, 04:52 PM
Interesting discussion in my field of expertise..... (hacking/privacy/NSA/networks/sniffing) ;-) Only thing I can say from here.. It is fully legal in my country to SNIFF data and collect data that is made public available and goes through my own router ;-) And I just found the data model and I can guarantee you that I can fully generate and automate my own SQL database with all user data.. This user data is also available when I do It manually. SInce I do it without breaching and or hacking the game platform by itself I have no legal issues ;-)

Ragmondino
09-05-2013, 04:53 PM
You can fart at me peppers...

The person who claimed about credit/debit cards. That's all done through apple or your own devices equivalent not gree so no issue there.

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 04:55 PM
Breaking out the holy hand grenade.

Rico_Suavi
09-05-2013, 04:56 PM
Data model:
id
invite_code
username
town_name
character_class_id
last_update_energy_value
last_update_energy_time
max_energy
last_update_stamina_value
last_update_stamina_time
max_stamina
money
steel
respect
gold
gold_spent
is_spender
experience
bank_balance
skill_points
skill_points_spent
level
level_up
attack
defense
clan_size
paid_clan_size
is_tutorial_complete
time_of_first_attack
num_attacks_this_hour
ab_test
is_banned
is_muted
is_test_account
image_version
image_base_cache_key
stat_jobs_completed
stat_jobs_failed
stat_bosses_beaten
stat_fights_won
stat_fights_won_as_attacker
stat_fights_won_as_defender
stat_fights_lost
stat_fights_lost_as_attacker
stat_fights_lost_as_defender
stat_robs_completed
stat_robs_failed
stat_jobs_money_earned
stat_fights_money_attack_won
stat_fights_money_attack_lost
stat_fights_money_defense_won
stat_fights_money_defense_lost
stat_robs_money_won
stat_robs_money_lost
last_game_load_time
num_game_loads
number_buildings_owned
width_expansion_level
length_expansion_level
expansion_direction
expansion_time_started
server_sequence_num
total_building_area
outfit_base_cache_key
available_vip_invites
stamina_cost_to_fight
capped_clan_size
invite_vip_time
last_update_health_value
last_update_health_time
max_health
last_free_scratcher_open_time
database_id
unique_id
payload
time_created
time_updated
version
game_account_created
diamond
stat_money_earned
stat_respect_earned
stat_buildings_purchased
stat_building_collect_count
stat_items_purchased
stat_guns_purchased
stat_melee_purchased
stat_armor_purchased
stat_cars_purchased
stat_expansions_purchased
stat_props_purchased
created_at
updated_at
recent_gold_purchase
attacker_raw_attack_strength
defender_raw_defense_strength
attacker_attack_skill
defender_defense_skill
defender_building_defense
item_raw_attack
item_raw_defense
item_bosted_attack
item_bosted_defense
inventory_udated_at

TMI
09-05-2013, 05:25 PM
We are starting to stretch "modified game experience" beyond the strictest interpretation. Clearly the most limited reading of it refers to modifying the mechanics of gameplay (ie, altering code so that jobs drop leaderboard items as loot, etc). This is clearly the main intent of the clause in the TOS. To go beyond this we have to decide whether "modified game experience" means "alteration of future outcomes" in a broader sense. There are two problems with doing this. The first is that it may well (and I believe that it does) fall outside of the intent of the clause - so even if you make a compelling case for it Gree still have no incentive to move forward, because they have TOS to protect their platform, not to fully impose all powers granted by it whenever possible. The second is that it starts making innocuous and common third party software fall within the clause. Does the use of chat apps by a syndicate affect gameplay? Undoubtedly. Does the use of timers affect gameplay? Undoubtedly. Hood planners, boss calculators, LTB calculators, the list goes on.

For reference: TOS sentence is: using third party software designed to modify user experience.
So I think we’re talking about different things. I wasn’t referring to “intent”, I was just referring to the actual writing of the TOS sentence. And I agree that if one is looking at just the writing of the TOS sentence, timers may be considered a violation of TOS, although one may argue if timer software are DESIGNED to modify user experience in CC. Certainly boss calculator softwares are third party software DESIGNED to modify user experience, so in the reading of the TOS, I would say that, yes, they are a violation of TOS. But as you said, if one is looking at the “spirit” or “intent” of the TOS, it is perhaps not in violation.

TMI
09-05-2013, 05:26 PM
Sorry, this is the sort of amoral sophistry that can only be produced by self-interest. Wiresharking game data to snoop on other players isn't like using a stopwatch, a chat program or a spreadsheet. It. Simply. Isn't.

For reference: TOS sentence is: using third party software designed to modify user experience.
First sentence may be ad hominem. For 2nd sentence, I think it IS the same when it comes to the READING of the TOS sentence. However, again, I am starting to see where the confusion is with what I proposed and what is being said on this thread, that is strict reading of the TOS sentence vs “intent” or “spirit” of the TOS sentence.

TMI
09-05-2013, 05:31 PM
We're discussing whether the database constitutes a violation of TOS, not making moral comparisons. I don't think that the TOS prohibition on modifying gameplay is meant to cover actions that merely have an effect on the results of gameplay.

It's been a long time since anyone actually used it.

For reference: TOS sentence is: using third party software designed to modify user experience.
Yet another example that has made me realize that I think I was thinking something different than what most ppl are saying, ie, strict reading vs intent. Regarding your second sentence, in the actual reading of the TOS sentence, time constraints aren’t stipulated. So that would not be relevant as far as the actual text is concerned re: violation of TOS. I can certainly acknowledge that it MAY be relevant as far as “intent” is concerned.

TMI
09-05-2013, 05:32 PM
Setting a timer to collect buildings/open boxes isn't even the same sort of thing as accessing game databases to get info on other players that the game interface won't give you, and whose hiddenness indeed is the basis for PVP.

For reference: TOS sentence is: using third party software designed to modify user experience.
Yet another example that has made me realize that I think I was thinking something different than what most ppl are saying, ie, strict reading vs intent. Regarding your second sentence, in the actual reading of the TOS sentence, time constraints aren’t stipulated. So that would not be relevant as far as the actual text is concerned re: violation of TOS. I can certainly acknowledge that it MAY be relevant as far as “intent” is concerned.

TMI
09-05-2013, 05:35 PM
Does this mean I am not allowed to use 3rd party software such as Groupme, Line, or Palringo to communicate with my team? Can I also not use google docs to track battle statistics?

For reference: TOS sentence is: using third party software designed to modify user experience.
I have addressed this above. I believe MOST CERTAINLY, those third party softwares may be considered violations of the TOS if one is looking at the straight text of the TOS sentence. But ONLY if it is determined that said software was DESIGNED to modify user experience in CC, then yes.

TMI
09-05-2013, 05:36 PM
Again, in what way does it alter playing experience? Nobody so far has given an example of an altered playing experience - just some fairly tenuous claims as to how it might possibly be used to do so.

My example that I gave earlier.
I AM a player that has used this unauthorized third party software to increase my chances of successfully robbing a rival, thus modify my user experience. (He may have even been unable to buy a LTB because of me, and now he has been affected, not just at the time that I was robbing him blind, but his entire CC career, for that player, is affected as he’ll never have that increase in iph from the LTB, nor will his hood every be graced with that LTB)

TMI
09-05-2013, 05:37 PM
My example that I gave earlier.
I AM a player that has used this unauthorized third party software to increase my chances of successfully robbing a rival, thus modify my user experience. (He may have even been unable to buy a LTB because of me, and now he has been affected, not just at the time that I was robbing him blind, but his entire CC career for that player is affected as he’ll never have that increase in iph from the LTB)

I also don’t think you’ll be successful in finding someone to state my above sentence, not because such a person doesn’t exist, but because it may be seen as self-incriminating.

TMI
09-05-2013, 05:40 PM
I will add that, I don't feel there should be any serious repercussions for those who are able to collect data like this- so long as that's all that they're doing with this info. Afterall it's on GREE for not properly encrypting said data (and even then, a serious hacker could decrypt it). Those who are maliciously using this information, though, they need to be sorted out and removed from the game.

This argument can be made for a “true” hacker (true meaning, what most ppl here would agree is a hacker, gold, items, etc). It’s GREE’s fault for not putting appropriate safeguards/walls (I’m not sure of the computer terms, so please excuse me) to prevent me from doing what I am doing.

TMI
09-05-2013, 05:42 PM
In summary I think most ppl here are arguing about the “spirit” or “intent” of the TOS. I was referring to just the straight text of the TOS. This is why I was careful to state that a violation of TOS (from a strict reading of the text) does not necessarily that players should be banned. That next step of banning might involve, not the strict reading of the text of the TOS, but rather the intent or spirit of the TOS. There are also pragmatic concerns regarding banning players that would have to be taken into account.
I think the disconnect between opposing arguments here, as far as the TOS sentence are twofold.
1. The applicable definition of modifying.
2. Confusion over the intent vs strict reading of the TOS (I was only referring to the strict reading)

Also for those annoyed with me, i'd like to apologize as a may have hijacked this thread "are these ppl cheaters" with my question regarding the reading of the TOS sentence. in retrospect, i probably should have either started a new thread or pm those whose insight i wanted.
Aaaand, i think i'm done. thanks again for those with the thoughtful responses. :)

jmeijer
09-05-2013, 05:49 PM
You could've used multi quote.

Mistress Nikita
09-05-2013, 05:51 PM
You could've used multi quote.

I still wouldn't have read it. He's already said it all before about 20 times.

Ragmondino
09-05-2013, 05:51 PM
My example that I gave earlier.
I AM a player that has used this unauthorized third party software to increase my chances of successfully robbing a rival, thus modify my user experience. (He may have even been unable to buy a LTB because of me, and now he has been affected, not just at the time that I was robbing him blind, but his entire CC career, for that player, is affected as he’ll never have that increase in iph from the LTB, nor will his hood every be graced with that LTB)

It's all ifs and buts and maybes. There is zero evidence this ever happened.
People are trying to hard to prove something that never happened.
They can keep saying "they could do this" or "they may of done that" but it never happened. Stop reading more into this than there is.

TMI
09-05-2013, 06:01 PM
You could've used multi quote.
I don't know how to do that. :(

TMI
09-05-2013, 06:06 PM
It's all ifs and buts and maybes. There is zero evidence this ever happened.
People are trying to hard to prove something that never happened.
They can keep saying "they could do this" or "they may of done that" but it never happened. Stop reading more into this than there is.

I'm not trying to prove something that is not. bald zeemer asked for an example, and i gave one.. I'm not reading more into this. In fact, i think i've read into it far less than others, as i've only been asking about the reading of the TOS, not the intent, or whether ppl should be banned cuz of it, or anything like that. my interest was specifically one thing. According to the strict reading of the TOS would it be a violation of TOS if a user used that unauthorized third party software? Nothing more than that. I thought i made that clear from the very original post when i asked that question.

jmeijer
09-05-2013, 06:07 PM
I don't know how to do that. :(Button at the right of 'Reply With Quote'.

TMI
09-05-2013, 06:10 PM
Button at the right of 'Reply With Quote'.


I don't know how to do that. :(


You could've used multi quote.

OMG! Thanks so much! That's awesome! Live and learn :)

cave man kid
09-05-2013, 06:30 PM
Just to make sure I understand this right all the player data base is doing is reading all the information GREE sends to their cellphone or what ever they play on
Thank you bald zeemer I am sure it was a lot of work for you to have to explain it in such depth but I am happy with the expiations you gave and have a better understanding of it now

TMI
09-05-2013, 06:43 PM
I still wouldn't have read it. He's already said it all before about 20 times.

lol. Fortunately, or unfortunately, you were not one of the few ppl whose insights into this matter I wanted. If, for example, bald zeemer posted what you just did, I admit, I would feel down.

Sorry. If you'd like, I can use my new found knowledge of using multi-quotes to compare and contrast the level of discourse of yours vs BZ's posts regarding this matter?

As i said early, i maybe should have just PMed the few ppl whose well thought out opinions I was looking for. On the other hand, reading Cave man kid's most recent post, i'm encouraged that perhaps posting it like this was better, as more ppl have been graced with thoughtful insight into this matter, as cave man kid did.

:) cheers

Mistress Nikita
09-05-2013, 06:51 PM
But sugarbear, you don't understand. I already had a whole thread about this subject once a few months ago. I deleted it after some poor guy got in a little trouble after trying to explain to the idiots around here the difference between the UDID hacking SAS did and data-sniffing. It went on for about 20 pages, and went no-where, just like this one is. And, the only mod actions or input in that thread, was in regard to discussing UDID hacking. People went into great detail on how to data read. Too bad you weren't around then.

TMI
09-05-2013, 07:01 PM
oh. i didn't know that. thank you for the background. I guess that would explain your frustration in this thread. And it IS too bad i wasn't around then. i've only started coming on this forum for a little over a month now. And i only found out that this forum existed a month before that lol. I hope that thread still searchable. i promise not to necro it lol, but i'm interested for the read
:)

Mistress Nikita
09-05-2013, 07:07 PM
No, sorry. It was deleted and is gone. It was entitled "I owe montebore of SAS an apology" or something like that. At the time, he was trying to make it sound like the datasniffing gave people the ability to steal your gold... but the only real way to do that is through UDID hacking, like was done to Baddad.

montecore
09-05-2013, 08:54 PM
No, sorry. It was deleted and is gone. It was entitled "I owe montebore of SAS an apology" or something like that. At the time, he was trying to make it sound like the datasniffing gave people the ability to steal your gold... but the only real way to do that is through UDID hacking, like was done to Baddad.

his udid was never hacked, it was given voluntarily. i also believe no gold was spent, and of course claiming gold was stolen is laughable. but i guess you would have to ask ian.

how were your fish sticks the other night? are you treating yourself to canned tuna, mac & cheese, and tater tots with dead sea salt drizzled in white truffle oil?

BigMoney
09-05-2013, 09:12 PM
his udid was never hacked, it was given voluntarily. i also believe no gold was spent, and of course claiming gold was stolen is laughable. but i guess you would have to ask ian.

how were your fish sticks the other night? are you treating yourself to canned tuna, mac & cheese, and tater tots with dead sea salt drizzled in white truffle oil?

I'm sure he willingly handed over his UDID with full knowledge of the possible repercussions.

Mistress Nikita
09-05-2013, 09:16 PM
So after Baddad left SAS for FC, you felt it was okay to mess wish his account afterwards because he "voluntarily" gave his UDID to you? There's a whole locked thread with tons of info on it... all one has to do is search Baddad's name. Here is what Baddad had to say in that thread:

"I am Baddad and this information is true.

During the Chinese Pagoda event I noticed all but 5 mil. Disappear from my bank. I thought it to be a Gree glitch and was going to report it. Later that day I received a communication from someone who I consider a person of ethics and character asking if my account had been hacked. I've only been playing CC since Jan. and would have never thought this possible let alone an option for one player to do to another for any reason. This person provided me many screen shots some depicted on this site as they were provided to me. I then sent a ticket to Gree for investigation and am also consulting with Apple and my local law enforcement as this type of malicious activity goes beyond the what is lawful on a public forum where private information and worse funds were compromised unlawfully.

I play the game for fun and have enjoyed making many friends along the way. My only hope is that others will not be treated as I have been by those whom I befriended in the game. I would like to thank #1 the person who first brought this to light and secondly all those who have spread the message of this horrible wrong so that others can be warned and those who are responsible for this will be punished, lastly for those who are considering to cheat may have second thoughts.

I will continue to play this game with honor and integrity and respect those in game friend or foe with respect."

Mistress Nikita
09-05-2013, 09:23 PM
Back to the original topic. While I'm not defending data-sniffing, I just don't see how it is a real advantage. I can tell if someone had purchased a lot of gold by their inventory and buildings, and by what syndicate they're in. Having a datasniffer tell me someone has gold is useless to me. How skill points are allocated? Who gives a turd.

Where the datasniffing is helpfull is knowing a players start date and how much money their earned to date and see if its even humanly possible for them to have collected what the data shows. This is useful in catching glitchers and hacks inorder to keep them out of your syndicate... or, in the case of SAS... recruit them harder.

(BF) Tuna
09-05-2013, 09:59 PM
I love that the proponents of this are saying "ohh its not a big deal, it makes no difference to a players experience"

Bull.. if it made no difference it wouldn't be utilized. It wouldn't have been made.. It gives the user more info about a player than GREE intended & whether you are too stubborn to acknowledge it or not, it gives the user an advantage over every other non-data sniffing player.

Sure, stat point allocation is a moot detail of the big picture.. Except if GREE wanted me to see how a player has allocated their stat pts when visiting a rivals city, they would have coded the game that way from the start. Whether you like it or not, that is an advantage, period..

Not to mention, this App or software (whatever you want to call it) had to be specifically designed for Crime City.. So much has been said to prove that.

Dipstik
09-05-2013, 10:01 PM
I love that the proponents of this are saying "ohh its not a big deal, it makes no difference to a players experience"

Bull.. if it made no difference it wouldn't be utilized. It wouldn't have been made.. It gives the user more info about a player than GREE intended & whether you are too stubborn to acknowledge it or not, it gives the user an advantage over every other non-data sniffing player.

Sure, stat point allocation is a moot detail of the big picture.. Except if GREE wanted me to see how a player has allocated their stat pts when visiting a rivals city, they would have coded the game that way from the start. Whether you like it or not, that is an advantage, period..

Not to mention, this App or software (whatever you want to call it) had to be specifically designed for Crime City.. So much has been said to prove that.

You have no idea what you're talking about. You haven't even read this thread.

genaks
09-05-2013, 10:10 PM
Anyway, I give up. I'm not going to argue about it any more.
??
??
??

(BF) Tuna
09-05-2013, 10:12 PM
You have no idea what you're talking about. You haven't even read this thread.
please, tell me more about what I have and haven't done today. It would help to further convolute this thread

nikosuave
09-05-2013, 10:14 PM
For one, third party software Altering game experience would involve code injection hacking via mobile substrate or botting on bluestacks, not packet sniffing software that never directly communicates with the crime city app. Second of all, I would be willing to bet that even if someone gave the @op this data, they would have no idea how to interpret it to any competitive advantage. You are smarter than me, therefore you must be a hacker. Dude, you are a moron. Third of all, it is no different than your current syndicate collecting data from battles and putting them into ur nifty little spreadsheet. At least have a minor understanding of the things your imagination envisions before you speak. I feel as if your iq were any lower you would be a plant... And not even a cool one.

Dipstik
09-05-2013, 10:17 PM
please, tell me more about what I have and haven't done today. It would help to further convolute this thread

Too easy. Not touching this one.

(BF) Tuna
09-05-2013, 10:30 PM
Altering- change or cause to change in character or composition, typically in a comparatively small but significant way.

The packets that are being sent to players using this data-sniffing technique is altering the game experience (granted it is mostly the high-end Syndicates where it is most common. And, practically impossible to detect given that this data is being sent to everyone- whether they utilize it or not)

To your second point- you are right. Which is exactly why it is an advantage to those that can dicypher it(who by definition are hackers- in a looser sense of the word)

at this point you resort to name-calling and your third point is not worth addressing due to the ignorance you're expressing at that point.

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 10:34 PM
Dip, curious what's the bet?

the_dude
09-05-2013, 10:34 PM
Why do you keep repeating yourself. Point still not sinking in? Maybe it isnt correct.

bald zeemer
09-05-2013, 10:38 PM
The packets that are being sent to players using this data-sniffing technique is altering the game experience (granted it is mostly the high-end Syndicates where it is most common

For the thousandth time: This is not happening anymore, and has not been for some time. That a heap of people from the "high-end Syndicates where it is most common" have told you this seems not to have dented your faith in your own knowledge about what's going on.

And again, just because you say it's altering it doesn't actually prove that it is. To date not a single person has said how this is actually occurring (as opposed to wild hypothesising about how it might - even though these effects are all identical to the effects of standard procedures for the majority of syndicates).


who by definition are hackers- in a looser sense of the word
A looser sense of the word is, by definition, not by definition.

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 10:40 PM
BZ what is your definition of not happening for a long time?

Dipstik
09-05-2013, 10:40 PM
A looser sense of the word is, by definition, not by definition.

I chuckled

nikosuave
09-05-2013, 10:43 PM
And to whoever suggested that potential credit card numbers were stolen... That is another lack of common sense issue and/or ur imagination taking over. Gree never sees any credit card details as all transactions are handled by either apple or google.

genaks
09-05-2013, 10:48 PM
And to whoever suggested that potential credit card numbers were stolen... That is another lack of common sense issue and/or ur imagination taking over. Gree never sees any credit card details as all transactions are handled by either apple or google.

Very true...

(BF) Tuna
09-05-2013, 10:48 PM
A looser sense of the word is, by definition, not by definition.


From wikipedia
The*Jargon File defines hacker as "A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and stretching their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary."

Please realize there is more than one way to define a hacker. Thanks.

(BF) Tuna
09-05-2013, 10:50 PM
And to whoever suggested that potential credit card numbers were stolen..

no one suggested this.

bald zeemer
09-05-2013, 11:03 PM
From wikipedia
The*Jargon File defines hacker as "A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and stretching their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary."

Please realize there is more than one way to define a hacker. Thanks.

I was referring to your misuse of the word "definition". I couldn't care less what definition of "hacker" you choose to use.

no one suggested this.

It's hacking and the players involved need to be banned. In fact it's information theft and authorities need to be informed. We don't know what other info has been stolen. Maybe credit card info which resulted in illegal purchases.
Lawyer up, class action suit on the way!
Page 8.

It really, really seems like you're not reading anything in the thread, just shouting from your soapbox.


BZ what is your definition of not happening for a long time?

In this game 1 cycle old is history, 2 cycles old is ancient.

Obviously in some matters (ie, chasing down Chinese gold cheats) this doesn't hold, because of the nature of the event in question. But in terms of the potential benefits that data about your profile presents then anything not current is useless. Especially since the parts of the data used that aren't very public already (cash on hand, gold on hand) change significantly in short periods of time.

(BF) Tuna
09-05-2013, 11:09 PM
Thanks for the lesson in semantics.. zzz

And, page 8 was yesterday's read (for myself at least). Pardon me for not retaining what some moron wrote.


This is not happening anymore, and has not been for some time.

Speaking for every player in the game does not help you make your point.


And again, just because you say it's altering it doesn't actually prove that it is. To date not a single person has said how this is actually occurring (as opposed to wild hypothesising about how it might - even though these effects are all identical to the effects of standard procedures for the majority of syndicates).

Had it not given the designer an advantage over the average player, it would have never been developed in the first place. So, by default it is altering the game experience, regardless as to whether the player who's data is being extracted is aware. I know that you know this. You are just a stubborn proponent who is unwilling to admit it.


Lastly... Had there been no advantage of extracting such data, the designer wouldn't have wanted to share it with others. (I could be mistaken, but I believe you were one of those who he wished to share it with...)

Green Drake
09-05-2013, 11:21 PM
In this game 1 cycle old is history, 2 cycles old is ancient.

Obviously in some matters (ie, chasing down Chinese gold cheats) this doesn't hold, because of the nature of the event in question. But in terms of the potential benefits that data about your profile presents then anything not current is useless. Especially since the parts of the data used that aren't very public already (cash on hand, gold on hand) change significantly in short periods of time.


I will concede that the information obtained is obsolete at this point but your stating that this has not been practiced for some time is misleading. To me mid July is recent history. If it was still being used just over a month ago i find it hard to believe that it was just suddenly dropped.

bald zeemer
09-05-2013, 11:45 PM
It's been out of use for pretty much as long as it was in use.

As we've been saying, there is little to no benefit in using it, which is why it got dropped. It had been used in the cheater chat, but the negatives outweighed the positives and it was abandoned. The key point that I think has often been missed in this thread (especially by anyone who has ever used the phrase "proponents of the database") is that everyone acknowledges that there are severe concerns with it from a privacy standpoint, and that it more or less gives everyone a sour taste in their mouth. The fact that it doesn't actually do much is why those of us saying it's a non-issue are happy to believe (or, in some cases, know for a fact) that it is no longer in use. To those 'on the outside', so to speak, there is apparently the view that this thing is powerful. From that starting point I can see how you would imagine it's still being used. But the starting point is the issue.

Green Drake
09-06-2013, 12:07 AM
At this point it is a privacy issue for me. It is my business how much I have spent on this game. For you to say that it is no longer being used is just simply untrue. You may not be but others still are. The fact is that a member of a top syndicate used some sort of program to intercept and post my information publicly as recently as July.
The fault lies with gree that they are somehow unable to encrypt this data but it also lies with anyone that has utilized this method. I'm glad that you can admit that it left a sour taste in your mouth and maybe you are only referring to the database that was compiled. I don't know for sure.
What I do know is that the methods that were developed to obtain this information are still very much in use. And if it gets ignored it will continue.

(BF) Tuna
09-06-2013, 12:15 AM
@BZ
I'll give you this... If it was designed by a high-end player and was only distributed to high end players, then it would be of little use because, as you've said, you pretty much all know each others stats etc etc... To where it would be obsolete. Unfortunately, you can't say for sure, with 100% certainty, that it hasn't found its way to various other players who could still be using it to their benefit. So please stop speaking for the entirety of this game's players.

It has also been said that, what the average player does in game on a regular basis (be it during Syndicate War or just robbing someone) is roughly the equivalent of what this decyphering program does... The major difference being that, this decyphering does not require the use of in-game resources such as health or stamina. (Oh, and it tells the user a whole bunch of other information that would otherwise be unknown to the average player = advantage... <--- Fact)

Now, I know that most of you top-ranking guys are in syndicates where a lot of intel-sharing is going on.. Which of course would be a more efficient way of avoiding scouting attacks during Synd Wars (granted, Tier3 gold spenders and above, don't really care). However, for a potential syndicate with no intel-sharing sources & no heavy gold spenders willing to waste gold on scouting... This decyphering app could easily turn a top500 team into a top250 team by circumventing the whole need for scouting.

The scenario above may be a "hypothetical" to you... But you're assuming that this program is no longer being used.

bald zeemer
09-06-2013, 12:27 AM
The fault lies with gree that they are somehow unable to encrypt this data but it also lies with anyone that has utilized this method. I'm glad that you can admit that it left a sour taste in your mouth and maybe you are only referring to the database that was compiled. I don't know for sure.
I'm pretty sure I've said at least half a dozen times that I never liked the idea. My points were simply that I don't believe it violates TOS (as it currently stands) and I don't believe it is an issue of enough import to deserve response from Gree.


At this point it is a privacy issue for me. It is my business how much I have spent on this game. For you to say that it is no longer being used is just simply untrue. You may not be but others still are. The fact is that a member of a top syndicate used some sort of program to intercept and post my information publicly as recently as July.
On the 'current' thing, that's just a terminology issue, then. I consider being used in July, but not since, as "not currently in use". Further statements by myself of "not current" are not intended to imply that it was not being used in July.

On the privacy issue I think the fault definitely lies with Gree and their lax standards on privacy/sensitive info in general. As I've said earlier in the thread I don't think this is actually Gree's #1 poor practice on privacy, but I would certainly like them to fix this up at the same time that they fix up the insane amounts of data they attach to tickets.

The info in tickets can be used nefariously against someone in real life (and in game - cf baddad's scenario). That is clearly the bigger issue.



Now, I know that most of you top-ranking guys are in syndicates where a lot of intel-sharing is going on.. Which of course would be a more efficient way of avoiding scouting attacks during Synd Wars (granted gold spenders don't really care). However, for a potential syndicate with no intel-sharing sources & no heavy gold spenders willing to waste gold on scouting... This decyphering app could easily turn a top500 team into a top250 team by circumventing the whole need for scouting.

There are intel sharing groups at your level. They recruit publicly for syndicates to participate. Relatively often, in fact.


t has also been said that, what the average player does in game on a regular basis (be it during Syndicate War or just robbing someone) is roughly the equivalent of what this decyphering program does... The major difference being that, this decyphering does not require the use of in-game resources such as health or stamina.
It requires no stamina whatsoever to visit a hood, check the players profile, and rummage in their inventory. Doing this will give you the vast majority of the information that the database obtained. If you want collection cycles then just visit regularly and note when buildings come up. Again, requiring absolutely no stamina usage whatsoever. And taking pretty much the same time that repeat-bombardment via the data sniffer would take, were anyone to try to use it in this manner.

(BF) Tuna
09-06-2013, 12:32 AM
You ignored the Synd War scouting thing by telling me that intel-sharing occurs at "my level". Don't ignore the program/database's potential advantages in a syndicate war. Okay?

And yes, you're right about traveling to a rival's city and... blah blah blah... You're wrong about the time it would take though. Plus skill point allocation.. I know you guys with million+ atk/def don't care... It is still an advantage to know these things that the average player would otherwise not know.

Also, if you don't see it as an issue and that you're positive it's obsolete & no longer in use.. Why are you still discussing this? Don't you have better things to do than go back and forth with the little fish in the pond?

Also have to add- For supposedly not being a proponent of this database, you sure know a lot about it. More than you're willing to tell I'd bet.

BigMoney
09-06-2013, 12:45 AM
You ignored the Synd War scouting thing by telling me that intel-sharing occurs at "my level". Don't ignore the program/database's potential advantages in a syndicate war. Okay?

Could be wrong, but I thought to use it in a syndicate war, you'd need to hit the opposing player anyway to capture their info.

Edit: this is a really dumb argument, and this topic is 22 pages too long.

(BF) Tuna
09-06-2013, 12:49 AM
Could be wrong, but I thought to use it in a syndicate war, you'd need to hit the opposing player anyway to capture their info.

Edit: this is a really dumb argument, and this topic is 22 pages too long.

You could be wrong considering that player data needs to be sent to both rival syndicates upon being matched to each other. Maybe not so dumb...

Edit: This topic has gone 22 pages without an official response from GREE. Which is what I'm most interested in. (Will agree, that's too many)

bald zeemer
09-06-2013, 12:54 AM
Plus skill point allocation.. I know you guys with million+ atk/def don't care... It is still an advantage to know these things that the average player would otherwise not know.

Unless your stats are 4-figures skill points are irrelevant. Even then it's debatable.


lso, if you don't see it as an issue and that you're positive it's obsolete & no longer in use.. Why are you still discussing this? Don't you have better things to do than go back and forth with the little fish in the pond?

Also have to add- For supposedly not being a proponent of this database, you sure know a lot about it. More than you're willing to tell I'd bet.
I've explained repeatedly in this thread why I talk about it.

And I don't decide who I do and don't talk to based on their stats or their syndicate. You seem hungup on a weird 99%-er vibe, with some big kabal at the top keeping all the little people down or some similar nonsense.

I know about it because it was discussed, at length, by all involved. On the forums. Publicly. I know most of the people behind it and most of the people targeted by it, so I've heard all about it privately, too.

And it is not more than I've let on. Between myself and the other guys in this thread who know what's going on we've given just about as much information about the database as is possible to give. But because this information just reinforces what we're saying you choose to believe that we're hiding all the juicy bits. People love conspiracies, but in the end if you take them at all seriously you're taking the first few dozen steps down a road that leads to excellence in tin-foil hat design.

(BF) Tuna
09-06-2013, 12:59 AM
k thx for the background on how you've been involved with it. Now do this one (and read my reply to BigMoney)

"You ignored the Synd War scouting thing by telling me that intel-sharing occurs at "my level". Don't ignore the program/database's potential advantages in a syndicate war. Okay?"

bald zeemer
09-06-2013, 01:15 AM
I didn't ignore it, I've answered it repeatedly within this thread.

Myself and others pointed out that scouting info-sharing is more effective than the database would be, if anyone used it, anyway. So use the real, existing tools that provide the benefits. Don't worry about the hypothetical uses of a non-used tool that would be less effective.

As it stands your concern with the database is that people who don't have it might use it for something it's never been used for to perform an easily performed function to a lesser standard. As I've said time and time again - this is not in the top-10 issues in CC today.

(BF) Tuna
09-06-2013, 01:23 AM
Okay, fine..... Still want Official word from GREE. Regardless as to what it will be.

Two things though,
1.)Anyone who's, in the know answer, is not GREE's answer
2.)A lack of an answer from GREE, does not mean, "It's okay", is their answer.

So I'll leave it at that. Had fun going back & forth with you all & thanks for increasing awareness of this "obsolete & no longer used" tool. Especially, for those of us who weren't on the forum when the initial discussion took place.

(I enjoy being a pest, if that hasn't been made apparent)

bald zeemer
09-06-2013, 01:35 AM
In case you missed it in the other thread, transferring accounts between players is a TOS violation.

;)

(BF) Tuna
09-06-2013, 01:40 AM
In case you missed it in the other thread, transferring accounts between players is a TOS violation.

;)

Yeah, just found out. It was a joke anyways. Might be recruiting this guy tho. Potentially just as good.

genaks
09-06-2013, 01:42 AM
Yeah, just found out. It was a joke anyways. Might be recruiting this guy tho. Potentially just as good.
As if I'll let you :p

(BF) Tuna
09-06-2013, 01:55 AM
As if I'll let you :p

lol. you guys did better than us, sooo... I've got nothin to offer anyways

genaks
09-06-2013, 02:00 AM
lol. you guys did better than us, sooo... I've got nothin to offer anyways
Really? With those many points to you alone? Weird...

Edit : Just saw your rank. 210.

(BF) Tuna
09-06-2013, 02:02 AM
One word- "Inactives"

Okay. I'm done further derailing this thread.

mxz
09-06-2013, 08:18 AM
Everyone from top syndicates sharing intel should be banned for modifying gameplay for others.

jmeijer
09-06-2013, 08:29 AM
BF Tuna, if you have that much IP at rank 210, you might want to consider a higher placed syndicate. If your stats are good enough, you can apply for almost every group in the top 25..

Green Drake
09-06-2013, 08:36 AM
Everyone from top syndicates sharing intel should be banned for modifying gameplay for others.
The question at hand is not the sharing of intel but how the intel was obtained.......pretty sure you already knew that.

Mistress Nikita
09-06-2013, 08:53 AM
The only time I've seen any mention of a team having intel on a team through any means other than scouting was Solemn Carnage having Rogues' full team and stats before the war ever started. Someone asked that question in one of these marathon threads. Give me an hour or two and I'll find who asked it.

Mistress Nikita
09-06-2013, 09:02 AM
Wow! So most of the top 100 syndicates should be banned then! Great idea! That will solve all the problems with this game then!

mxz
09-06-2013, 11:21 AM
Wow! So most of the top 100 syndicates should be banned then! Great idea! That will solve all the problems with this game then!I concur. Everyone should be banned for hacking! Only teams that communicate on the in game forum should be spared. But if they post a scouting report on the in game forum...B&!

Mistress Nikita
09-06-2013, 11:31 AM
I concur. Everyone should be banned for hacking! Only teams that communicate on the in game forum should be spared. But if they post a scouting report on the in game forum...B&!

Then "Third party software altering the game experience" would include excel being used to record the stats of your opponent in war, and Kakao and GroupMe being used to communicate those stats to other players who otherwise wouldn't have access to those stats. In conclusion, everyone needs to scout their own targets and not share that information with anyone, or you'll be in violation of TOS!

I think I understand now! Thanks! mxz, you're the balls. (basketballs, nothing sexual there, no TOS violation)

(BF) Tuna
09-06-2013, 11:34 AM
Ugh.. what have I done?.... Teams willingly share intel with each other as a means to increase the points they gain by circumventing the scouting process. There are no hacks, or glitches, or exploits (typically).. they just tell each other all of their members stats..

and yes, I know that the amount of IP I put up could get me into a T25. I am loyal to my team though. There's a much longer story with more details that I don't care to type out though. Plus, its more gratifying to build a solid ship than to hop from one to the next.

Green Drake
09-06-2013, 12:57 PM
Mxz, curious does a pvp event have to occur in order for my information to be sent or is it sent every time I enter another's hood?

TMI
09-06-2013, 01:22 PM
What are steel and diamond?? (bottom right corner)

Killshot-CC
09-06-2013, 01:26 PM
What are steel and diamond?? (bottom right corner)

They're for other games. The original structure was expanded and modified to build other games.

Ragmondino
09-06-2013, 01:30 PM
Didn't you have to change name and quit because you got caught hacking bad dad with Ian kiddo?

TMI
09-06-2013, 01:31 PM
can you do my profile? :)

Mistress Nikita
09-06-2013, 01:32 PM
Wow! If people are claiming its a TOS violation to read this data in the privacy of your own home - where GREE sends it all - then what is THIS??

I thought you were a creator of SAS? Is Balthazar now the head of SAS?

Killshot-CC
09-06-2013, 01:39 PM
Didn't you have to change name and quit because you got caught hacking bad dad with Ian kiddo?

No, I quit because it was the only way to break my addiction. You're thinking about the time I hypothesized what could be done with an account if one had control, but ultimately voted to do nothing and told Ian to be conveniently unavailable if asked to do so. Had someone been foolish enough to give control over their account to other people in order to find ways to boost their IPH and stats or to be able to play even in the event of a device failure, they should probably consider themselves lucky that said players would rather disband the syndicate than do any of the things that would have been possible.

Mistress Nikita
09-06-2013, 01:41 PM
No, I quit because it was the only way to break my addiction. You're thinking about the time I hypothesized what could be done with an account if one had control, but ultimately voted to do nothing and told Ian to be conveniently unavailable if asked to do so. Had someone been foolish enough to give control over their account to other people in order to find ways to boost their IPH and stats or to be able to play even in the event of a device failure, they should probably consider themselves lucky that said players would rather disband the syndicate than do any of the things that would have been possible.

You're Vlad? But, you're still in SAS. You only turned control over to a puppet.

Killshot-CC
09-06-2013, 01:43 PM
I thought you were a creator of SAS? Is Balthazar now the head of SAS?

No, I was just an officer in SAS. I created Rogues Gallery out of one of SAS's syndicates when we decided to leave. I'm sure you saw the letter I wrote when I left. You just didn't see my name listed because Blather-zar blacked it out along with any dissenting comments from the chats.

http://i.imgur.com/oAk6GZW.jpg

Ragmondino
09-06-2013, 01:56 PM
So what's your big issue with Balt here?
And I thought I remembered from the screen shots posted from chats about bad dads account in SAS when his money went and things were changed it was you and Ian the biggest culprits. Hence the name changes from you two and hiding out in lower syns..

Dipstik
09-06-2013, 02:06 PM
Didn't you have to change name and quit because you got caught hacking bad dad with Ian kiddo?

No, I never changed my name.

Killshot-CC
09-06-2013, 02:12 PM
So what's your big issue with Balt here?
And I thought I remembered from the screen shots posted from chats about bad dads account in SAS when his money went and things were changed it was you and Ian the biggest culprits. Hence the name changes from you two and hiding out in lower syns..

No. You missed about half the screenshots including those between me & Ian. I sent them all to Bad Dad before the story broken on the forum. The screenshots that were posted showed that in-game money was deposited into the syndicate bank, but long before I knew anything about it. You missed all the time that had lapsed between those and when I chimed in, speculating on what could be done. You also didn't see screenshots of messages where I told Ian to play along but not do anything else.

Bad Dad admitted that he doesn't know if anything was ever taken. I have screenshots of him saying so when we were in Infamous together (so much for "lower" syndicates, eh?). GREE would certainly know exactly what happened and would have known and refunded anything that was damaged. If nothing needed to be restored, it would suggest that nothing was done - not even exiting him from Fight Club just before war, which would have been the simplest thing to do if one had control of another's account.

montecore
09-06-2013, 02:18 PM
Blather-zar, enjoy your time in the syndicate I created, living off my dregs. I won.

All you created was drama and discord. You have the worst temper of anyone I've encountered in the game. And you didn't win anything. You tried to destroy SAS and you were an epic failure at it, although you sure made things interesting for a bit. One of my great pleasures in this game is seeing SAS back where it belongs, and seeing you where you belong.

That said, congrats on quitting or duking it out in the top 500 or wherever you are. I don't think the game was good for your blood pressure.

montecore
09-06-2013, 02:21 PM
My issue with Blatherzar is twofold but related. He edited the letter and screenshots to make things look worse, knowing that we wouldn't comment because of our pledge to SAS not to feed into the drama. Then today, he spouted off about me on Kakao, only after he knew that I had left the game and thinking I wouldn't see it. That's why he's the Crime City Gangsta.

Considering you wrote that letter to make things look far worse than they were in reality, going so far as to fabricate things and present your biased opinions as facts, I'd say it serves you right. It's cute that you're keeping up the lies though. You broke every pledge you ever made to SAS. People were sharing your letter in game within a half hour of it being revealed.

And you have proven yourself to have less integrity than anyone who has ever been a part of SAS, now or in the past.

montecore
09-06-2013, 02:23 PM
You're Vlad? But, you're still in SAS. You only turned control over to a puppet.

911 is our leader, and he's certainly not a puppet.

Dipstik
09-06-2013, 02:26 PM
...because of our pledge to SAS not to feed into the drama...

http://arch.413chan.net/laughing_pony-(n1311201275897).gif

Mistress Nikita
09-06-2013, 02:32 PM
Dipstik, can I borrow some popcorn? I'm out. I'd run to the store, but I don't want to miss any of this in case it is deleted.

Green Drake
09-06-2013, 02:34 PM
Wow! If people are claiming its a TOS violation to read this data in the privacy of your own home - where GREE sends it all - then what is THIS??

I thought you were a creator of SAS? Is Balthazar now the head of SAS?
Don't worry about it. It is not being used anymore.

Mistress Nikita
09-06-2013, 02:40 PM
What about the one that FC and HTC uses?

Green Drake
09-06-2013, 02:41 PM
What about the one that FC and HTC uses?duh. Nobody uses it. It doesn't serve any purpose. Haven't you been keeping up.

Mistress Nikita
09-06-2013, 02:44 PM
I'm sorry, I got distracted by the flame-out.

However, that profile of Balthazar doesn't tell me a lot more than I'd learn by looking at his profile page. I wish he'd put some of that money into my retirement fund, but besides that, I'm really haven't learned anything.