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BethMo
05-25-2013, 05:46 PM
I've been number crunching, and I believe I've approximated the formulas used to compute damage in the Epic Boss fights. These calculations come within 2 points of the actual damage for all of the hits I've recorded.

----------

Base Damage to boss by a level 100 knight = 246 * (my attack / boss armor) * advantage factor.
Advantage factor:
1 for single advantage element (i.e. Swamp Shaman vs. Jian)
1.33 for double advantage elements (i.e. AA armor vs Jian)
3 for Nemesis

This damage is then multiplied by 1, 1.25, 1.5, 1.75, or 2 depending on number of knights. Special attack gets an additional 1.5x multiplier. Some attacks will randomly get a miss (zero damage) or a critical hit (same as special attack).

----------

Damage done by the boss is more complicated; it depends on the boss's level, not just on its attack score. That's why the Jian at level 14 does a lot less damage than the last few week's bosses at level 60, even though they have the same attack/defense values. (Damage done by the knights may depend on the knight's level, too; I only have data from level 100 knights.)

----------

Base Damage to knight with no opposing elements = (boss attack / my armor) * magic number
Magic number:
Jian levels 1-19: 3 * (pseudolevel + 4)
Jian levels 20-?: (1.6 * pseudolevel) + 43 (tested up to level 37)
pseudolevel is the boss level except at the reward levels, where it's equal to the real level that is closest to the same attack/defense values. (level 15 = pseudolevel 19, level 21 = pseudolevel 24, level 28 = pseudolevel 31, level 35 = pseudolevel 39, etc. Level 60 = pseudolevel 67!)
----------

As with knight attacks, some boss attacks will randomly get a miss (zero damage) or a critical hit (1.5x damage).

I didn't start keeping detailed records of boss damage early enough to closely check this against previous bosses, but it matches for the ones that I did record.

I'm going to change my main knight's name to Theorycrafter now. :)

jamiedmc
05-25-2013, 05:58 PM
very nice number crunching! This can help our understanding of fighting the boss.

Confused tho, as it looks like your formula says that there is the same damage against the boss for no advantage element and 1 advantage element. That doesn't seem like it should be true.

BethMo
05-25-2013, 06:13 PM
I don't have any numbers for no advantage elements -- for the weeks I've been working on this, I've always had 3 armors that were good against the boss. Next week I'll throw some non-advantage armor at the lowest level boss and see what that does. My guess is that it will be a multiplier less than 1, probably .75 or .66.

I've been using these formulas in a spreadsheet to optimize my friend usage against Jian. It's a big help! (Though the whiffs and criticals still give it enough randomness that too much attempted optimization can kill you. I lost the level 25 fight by 463 hitpoints whiffing four times, grrr!)

Neomagic
05-25-2013, 06:23 PM
thank you so much!! I started a keeping track on the damages done to and against the boss last week, but I got lazy and never finished. Also, I couldn't manage to figure out the formula for damage, so I'm glad you did! Thanks a lot!

Sir.
05-25-2013, 06:34 PM
Nice work! Is the advantage factor the same for boss hits on you though? This would be something to take in consideration on last boss by example (where fire/water maxes out your damage for non-nemesis, but is countered by Siren's water element).

BethMo
05-25-2013, 06:42 PM
That's a very good question. I haven't used any armor that gave the boss extra damage against me, just assumed that it's a bad idea, but if it increases my damage more than it increases his that could be a winning tactic. If the boss next week goes back to a normal difficulty and I have an appropriate armor, I'll do some testing on that.

Or maybe someone else will jump in with some numbers for us.

Sir William
05-25-2013, 07:25 PM
That's a very good question. I haven't used any armor that gave the boss extra damage against me, just assumed that it's a bad idea, but if it increases my damage more than it increases his that could be a winning tactic. If the boss next week goes back to a normal difficulty and I have an appropriate armor, I'll do some testing on that.

Or maybe someone else will jump in with some numbers for us.

I don't think that's worth investigating.

You have to consider your health is vastly inferior to the boss's health.

Taking a minimum of 50% damage to deal even 50-100% more damage to the boss is a losing strategy.

You will die significantly quicker than it would take to make it worthwhile.

Consider the odds he hits his critical and the chance you miss entirely.

Stick to dealing 50% more and avoiding wearing weakness.

BethMo
05-25-2013, 08:06 PM
That's been my assumption, but I haven't actually checked the numbers. For that matter, for normal mortals who don't have every armor in the world (Eunuchorn can ignore this) there will be cases where you have to choose between a level 70 with bad elements and a level 50-or-lower with good elements. It would be good to get some actual data for making these choices.

Raistmar
05-25-2013, 08:22 PM
I knew you were special when you posted them numbers on boss damages. <3

Eunuchorn
05-25-2013, 09:19 PM
Numbers make me sleepy

L C
05-26-2013, 07:56 AM
Great work, but long ago someone posted the info you are missing about using non-boosted armor.
Plus you can check the boosting damage data via a friend battle, in arena, or against an enemy.

Armor with no elemental advantage provides a multiplier of 1
Single elemental boost gets a 50% boost for a multiplier of 1.5
Double elemental boost gets a 100% boost for a multiplier of 2

(This holds true for the data you already collected: double elemental boost gets 33% more damage when compared to a single elemental boost: 2x>1.5x)
X=10). 20>15 by 5, 33%
X=100). 200>150 by 50, 33%

Also, level matters for us only up to level 100 because we gain stats to that point and then remain constant.
Not a lot of point in farming bosses for their armor before level 100 (though about level 80 was capable of tier 43 without gems before this boss), so nothing wrong with focusing on level 100 IMO.

Elemental boost damage done by boss holds true to same format as well.

Great work at top of this thread, if you tweak the formulas to be initiated with non-boosted elemental damage, I think it deserves to be included in the guides or stickied (though I think the guide would be the best place to avoid too many stickies).

Longtime lurker, first time poster (obviously)

Hating new boss format (just hit top 25 against boss last war and failed to get nemesis with 17 DPCs), hoping it doesn't stick around.

Sir.
05-26-2013, 01:10 PM
[...]

Armor with no elemental advantage provides a multiplier of 1
Single elemental boost gets a 50% boost for a multiplier of 1.5
Double elemental boost gets a 100% boost for a multiplier of 2

(This holds true for the data you already collected: double elemental boost gets 33% more damage when compared to a single elemental boost: 2x>1.5x)
X=10). 20>15 by 5, 33%
X=100). 200>150 by 50, 33%

[...]

The advantage multiplier from damage you do on the boss is different than in pvp, in your format this is:

Armor with no elemental advantage is unknown.
Single elemental boost gets a 0% boost for a multiplier of 1
Double elemental boost gets a 33% boost for a multiplier of 1.33

This is where he gets the 1.33 from, not from an increase in damage boost as you calculated.

Given the fact that your elemental advantage on the boss isn't the same as in pvp, it's definitely not sure that the pvp damage boost goes for the boss's damage on you.

Budd
05-26-2013, 02:12 PM
"pseudolevel is the boss level except at the reward levels, where it's equal to the real level that is closest to the same attack/defense values. (level 15 = pseudolevel 19, level 21 = pseudolevel 24, level 28 = pseudolevel 31, level 35 = pseudolevel 39, etc. Level 60 = pseudolevel 67!)"

What do you mean by this ? Can you clarify

Sir.
05-26-2013, 02:58 PM
"pseudolevel is the boss level except at the reward levels, where it's equal to the real level that is closest to the same attack/defense values. (level 15 = pseudolevel 19, level 21 = pseudolevel 24, level 28 = pseudolevel 31, level 35 = pseudolevel 39, etc. Level 60 = pseudolevel 67!)"

What do you mean by this ? Can you clarify

At reward levels (at the end of a ribbon) the boss is stronger than it would have been otherwise. You might have noticed level 15 boss is stronger than level 16, by example. The pseudolevel 19 for level 15 mean, means that the boss at level 15 has the strength of the level 19 boss.

Sir.
05-26-2013, 06:43 PM
Perhaps this is a good place to keep track of the epic energy drops too. :) Another theory started by yourself:



I was under the impression that the energy drops are random or semi-random. Let's compare notes! I'm up to Jian level 37; I've gotten energy drops at levels 3, 5, 26, 31, 33, and 36.

I just got a drop at level 21.

L C
05-26-2013, 08:25 PM
The advantage multiplier from damage you do on the boss is different than in pvp, in your format this is:

Armor with no elemental advantage is unknown.
Single elemental boost gets a 0% boost for a multiplier of 1
Double elemental boost gets a 33% boost for a multiplier of 1.33

This is where he gets the 1.33 from, not from an increase in damage boost as you calculated.

Given the fact that your elemental advantage on the boss isn't the same as in pvp, it's definitely not sure that the pvp damage boost goes for the boss's damage on you.


Sorry to disagree with you, sir. But my math is accurate. And the damage done by unboosted armor is not unknown.
I merely modified his equation by using a known quantity for the damage done by unboosted armor.
Call it X if you wish.
Then, the boosted damage from armor with the same attack and a single elemental advantage will net 1.5X or 50% more damage then X (aka armor with no elemental advantage).
Following this is the boosted damage from armor with a double elemental advantage, and it nets 2X or 100% more damage then X (and ultimately 33% more damage than armor with a single elemental advantage).

The original math was figured for a single elemental advantage, so lets call that Y.
Thus Y=1.5X

If we set double elemental advantage armor as Z, then...
Z=2X=1.33Y (this is really 1 1/3)
So using some old school algebra:
2X=1.33Y
(2/1.33)X=Y
Y=(2/1.33)X
y=1.5X

Feel free to check my math, but rest assured that it is correct.

As for the damage being different in the arena or other PvP method, that is merely because the individual has different defense (and attack) values than the boss, but it is all figured the same. Numerous tests have been run by many people and previously posted in this forum (you'd have to read back always though), as well as I have done them myself, to verify this. Sure you can break open the app and read the code to see the math as well, but where's the fun in that?

Also, sir: spot on explaining the "pseudolevel".
Nicely done, mate.

Congrats on the energy drop in level 21, as well. Wish I had gotten some extra ones, but so far mine match up to those previously posted.

Cheers

Sir.
05-26-2013, 10:42 PM
Sorry to disagree with you, sir. But my math is accurate. And the damage done by unboosted armor is not unknown.
I merely modified his equation by using a known quantity for the damage done by unboosted armor.
Call it X if you wish.
Then, the boosted damage from armor with the same attack and a single elemental advantage will net 1.5X or 50% more damage then X (aka armor with no elemental advantage).
Following this is the boosted damage from armor with a double elemental advantage, and it nets 2X or 100% more damage then X (and ultimately 33% more damage than armor with a single elemental advantage).

The original math was figured for a single elemental advantage, so lets call that Y.
Thus Y=1.5X

If we set double elemental advantage armor as Z, then...
Z=2X=1.33Y (this is really 1 1/3)
So using some old school algebra:
2X=1.33Y
(2/1.33)X=Y
Y=(2/1.33)X
y=1.5X

Feel free to check my math, but rest assured that it is correct.

As for the damage being different in the arena or other PvP method, that is merely because the individual has different defense (and attack) values than the boss, but it is all figured the same. Numerous tests have been run by many people and previously posted in this forum (you'd have to read back always though), as well as I have done them myself, to verify this. Sure you can break open the app and read the code to see the math as well, but where's the fun in that?

Also, sir: spot on explaining the "pseudolevel".
Nicely done, mate.

Congrats on the energy drop in level 21, as well. Wish I had gotten some extra ones, but so far mine match up to those previously posted.

Cheers

Your maths are definitely correct, I was merely questioning the relevance of it. Basically you're confirming the elemental damage boosting in the rest of the game (i.e. pvp) by comparing the boosts to eachother.

It does however seem to work the same as in pvp, but that means there's a minor flaw in the initial post. I need a bit more info to work on the correction, I'll get back on that.

600RR
05-27-2013, 01:17 AM
Damn you guys are smart. I'd be here all my life working that stuff out! Keep it coming :D!

Adagio
05-27-2013, 03:31 AM
Wow you guys are really amazing! And I thought I was gonna go to Harvard!!

ang1977
05-27-2013, 02:22 PM
amazing thread and i admire your curiosity and effort to have the numbers calculated and present them here. its kinda extreme to have reached such extend and you deserve my claps. i'm bad with numbers and they make me giddy lol....with the boss damage board showing that 5mil(after 1st day) and 2mil(out of no where) damage points, make my giddiness worst......just WOW....you know what i'm thinking.......maybe......should be.......must be!

keep up the nice work! cheers!

Sir.
05-27-2013, 02:52 PM
Can someone confirm one or several of these numbers? I can't myself as I'm not level 100+.

Damage done on boss: (the examples given in boldare for lvl 43 Jian with 5 knights out, reg att/spec att)

Main knight with maxed nemesis = (562,848/boss def)*dmg boost ------ 929/1394 (edit: due to the single advantage element of Nemesis this should be multiplied by 1.5, actually making it 1394/2091)
Main knight with maxed AA+ = (348,336/boss def)*dmg boost ------ 575/863
Main knight with maxed swamp+ = (278,472/boss def)*dmg boost ------ 460/690

Follower with maxed nemesis = (525,456/boss def)*dmg boost ------ 867/1301
Follower with maxed AA+ = (323,408/boss def)*dmg boost ------ 534/801
Follower with maxed swamp+ = (259,776/boss def)*dmg boost ------ 429/644

The damage boost is the boost from taking multiple knights, 2 for five knights, 1.75 for four, 1.5 for three, 1.25 for two or 1 for one knight.

BethMo
05-27-2013, 03:08 PM
Can someone confirm one or several of these numbers? I can't myself as I'm not level 100+.


I don't quite understand the format you're using. My numbers for level 43 Jian with five level 100+ knights:
Main knight & friends with maxed nemesis: damage to me 134, damage to boss 1392
Follower with maxed swamp+: damage to me 111, damage to boss 425
Follower with level 68 Hydromancer (stats 1,308/1090, water): damage to me 138, damage to boss 530

Total damage done in the fight was 28,324; my Hydromancer + Nemesis then finished it off.

(Maxed-out Atlantean does the same damage as level 68 Hydromancer, but the Hydromancer has higher armor so it can sometimes survive for one more hit.)

Sir.
05-27-2013, 05:34 PM
I don't quite understand the format you're using. My numbers for level 43 Jian with five level 100+ knights:
Main knight & friends with maxed nemesis: damage to me 134, damage to boss 1392
Follower with maxed swamp+: damage to me 111, damage to boss 425
Follower with level 68 Hydromancer (stats 1,308/1090, water): damage to me 138, damage to boss 530

Total damage done in the fight was 28,324; my Hydromancer + Nemesis then finished it off.

(Maxed-out Atlantean does the same damage as level 68 Hydromancer, but the Hydromancer has higher armor so it can sometimes survive for one more hit.)

Pretty much using your format, slightly adjusted to having no elemental advantage as a base, rather than 1 element advantage. Was just focussing on the attack you deal for now to specify how the Nemesis works.

Apparently the elemental advantage of Nemesis is added to your attack first, before it's multiplied by 3. So effectively Nemesis does 4.5x damage, compared to armor with no elemental advantage. This confirms the ratio's you posted inititially and takes away my confusion with those.

As for the armors with no elemental advantages, in your format this would be 0.67 (2/3rd). Personally, however, I would take these armors as the base ones, rather than the armor with one elemental advantage as you currently have. It does work the same as with pvp, after all.



[...]
Base Damage to boss by a level 100 knight = 246 * (my attack / boss armor) * advantage factor.
Advantage factor:
0.67 for no advantage element (i.e. Regalia vs. Jian)
1 for single advantage element (i.e. Swamp Shaman vs. Jian)
1.33 for double advantage elements (i.e. AA armor vs Jian)
3 for Nemesis


I added the no advantage element here.

If you make that the base here, it would be the same as with pvp, namely:

1 for no advantage element (i.e. Regalia vs. Jian)
1.5 for single advantage element (i.e. Swamp Shaman vs. Jian)
2 for double advantage elements (i.e. AA armor vs Jian)
4.5 for Nemesis (single advantage element and triple damage)

Effectively you have just multiplied it all by 1.5, so somewhere in the equation you have to divide it by 1.5 too, so you have to adjust the original 246 to 246/1.5=164. As you can see by the numbers I calculated, this was very accurate to the hits you actually made, the slight 2-4 difference probably being due to rounding of numbers. With two examples however, I'll do the simple algebra quickly to find out what the exact number should be. Am on that now.



Edit: I'm getting different numbers for both formats now. When I fill in your original one it doesn't work either:

Base Damage to boss by a level 100 knight = 246 * (my attack / boss armor) * advantage factor.

With the swamp+ example:

246 * (1056/1212) * 1 = 214.33
Your damage was 425.

The equation 425 = X * (1056/1212) * 1 solves for X = 487.78


With the format I suggested (for a better understanding of where the numbers are coming from) this would be:

425 = X * (1056/1212) * 1.5
X = 325.19

With Nemesis on main knight as an example X would solve for 327.72 or 491.58 with your format. Both are close, but not exactly the same. I suspect the equation to be slightly more complicated, but this being a fairly accurate approximation.

Note: This is with examples for the level 43 boss only. It is possible that calculating the damage you do involves the boss level as well, rather than just it's defence. If your findings were based on another level of the boss, this would explain the difference in outcomes.

Sir.
05-27-2013, 06:40 PM
To summarize the above post more clearly; if my calculations are right, your format should be this:


[...]
Base Damage to boss by a level 100 knight = 490.5 * (my attack / boss armor) * advantage factor.
Advantage factor:
0.67 for no advantage element (i.e. Regalia vs. Jian)
1 for single advantage element (i.e. Swamp Shaman vs. Jian)
1.33 for double advantage elements (i.e. AA armor vs Jian)
3 for Nemesis


However, for a better understand of where these numbers are coming from, I'd put it like this:

Base Damage to boss by a level 100 knight = 326.5 * (my attack / boss armor) * advantage factor.
Advantage factor:
1 for no advantage element (i.e. Regalia vs. Jian)
1.5 for single advantage element (i.e. Swamp Shaman vs. Jian)
2 for double advantage elements (i.e. AA armor vs Jian)
4.5 for Nemesis


Again, this is based on the numbers given from swamp+ on follower and nemesis on main knight, on a level 43 Jian. It's very well possible that this doesn't go for other levels.

BethMo
05-27-2013, 07:11 PM
Edit: I'm getting different numbers for both formats now. When I fill in your original one it doesn't work either:

Base Damage to boss by a level 100 knight = 246 * (my attack / boss armor) * advantage factor.

With the swamp+ example:

246 * (1056/1212) * 1 = 214.33
Your damage was 425.


You forgot the x2 multiplier for having five knights. (Also, my maxed-out swamp guy is 1053 attack, not 1056).

246 * (1053/1212) * 1 (for single element advantage) * 2 (for five knights) = 427, actual damage was 425, close enough for rounding errors.

Sir.
05-27-2013, 07:46 PM
You forgot the x2 multiplier for having five knights. (Also, my maxed-out swamp guy is 1053 attack, not 1056).

246 * (1053/1212) * 1 (for single element advantage) * 2 (for five knights) = 427, actual damage was 425, close enough for rounding errors.

*facedesk*

I actually read it all like 5 times over to find out where my mistake was... Dividing my findings by 2 indeed confirms the formula.


Did you get what I was trying to say by using the no advantage element as a base though? With this format:

1 for no advantage element (i.e. Regalia vs. Jian)
1.5 for single advantage element (i.e. Swamp Shaman vs. Jian)
2 for double advantage elements (i.e. AA armor vs Jian)
4.5 for Nemesis (single advantage element and triple damage)

Works the same, except the 246 would become ~163 (163.86 for Nemesis main knight, 163.06 for swamp+ follower).

P.s. The 0.67 multiplier for no advantage element in your format works eitherway.

Raistmar
05-28-2013, 03:00 AM
*Note to self, avoid this thread so my brain don't go BOOM!*

aaa13
05-28-2013, 02:14 PM
So the "coolnes" of armour is not the attack+defence, but attack*defence. Someone should edit the spreadsheet.

aaa13
05-28-2013, 03:09 PM
Just have checked, without elemental advantage coefficient is 0.66.

L C
05-28-2013, 03:46 PM
Just have checked, without elemental advantage coefficient is 0.66.


It's actually 2/3, which is why it was rounded to .67 (because .6 repeating is way too much of a pain)...
This is also why it was suggested to shift the equation to represent no advantage as a coefficient of 1 and thus
Single elemental advantage as 1.5 (for +50%)
Dual elemental advantage as 2 (for +100%)

It seems anyone who wants to utilize this, will have to just decide how they want to handle it. Just pick which of the equations you want to utilize (sir. Did a good job of shifting it to the coefficients listed above)

Good math, sir. (been there with the face/desk many times in the past myself)


Currently trying to trip level 43 without a nemesis armor (one more attempt at using 7 energy then 6 where I take two maxed nemisis friends along - last attempt I had 4 misses and boss had 3 extra critical = doomed)

Sir.
05-28-2013, 04:10 PM
It's actually 2/3, which is why it was rounded to .67 (because .6 repeating is way too much of a pain)...
This is also why it was suggested to shift the equation to represent no advantage as a coefficient of 1 and thus
Single elemental advantage as 1.5 (for +50%)
Dual elemental advantage as 2 (for +100%)

It seems anyone who wants to utilize this, will have to just decide how they want to handle it. Just pick which of the equations you want to utilize (sir. Did a good job of shifting it to the coefficients listed above)

Good math, sir. (been there with the face/desk many times in the past myself)


Currently trying to trip level 43 without a nemesis armor (one more attempt at using 7 energy then 6 where I take two maxed nemisis friends along - last attempt I had 4 misses and boss had 3 extra critical = doomed)

Ty sir. Level 43 without nemesis yourself is possible, been confirmed today. Good luck.

ang1977
05-28-2013, 05:29 PM
So the "coolnes" of armour is not the attack+defence, but attack*defence. Someone should edit the spreadsheet.

that is why free* armours by epic bosses mostly come with unbalance stats.....either def too high with low att, or att overwhelm with miserable def. recent half dragon and twin jian still ok.

L C
05-28-2013, 07:47 PM
Ty sir. Level 43 without nemesis yourself is possible, been confirmed today. Good luck.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.
I did just complete level 43 on second attempt (didn't have such bad luck this time with misses and critical hits by boss, but did finish it on my last hit).
---first pass: minion in Atlantean+, hero in swamp shaman+, pair of friends in nemesis (everything maxed of course)
-----second pass: hero in swamp shaman+, pair of friends in nemesis
This is a far cry from passing 60 for the past couple weeks

BethMo
05-29-2013, 05:41 PM
Congratulations LC!

I would really appreciate it if some under-level-100 player(s) would record their knights stats, boss level, and the damage done to them and against them for each hit for a few fights and post it here. I'd like to see whether player level affects damage the same way that boss level does.

indestructigal
05-31-2013, 07:53 AM
Level does not influence player damage the same way it affects boss damage. Instead, it seems to affect the base damage value:



Fixed table below thanks to Raistmar and L C pointing out that I messed up the elemental bonuses.


Legend:
KLvl - knight level
KAtt - knight armor attack
BLvl - boss level
BDef - boss defense
Dam - visible damage
Num - bonus due to number of knights (most tests run with one knight only)
Ele - bonus due to elemental advantage
UnM - unmodified damage (Dam/(Num*Ele))
Base Dam - (UnM*BDef/KAtt)

These tests were run against Sasquatch at level 52 with non-advantageous armor (Hydra Hunter) and at 60 with single element advantage (Living Flame). So, instead of 246, the base damage value at 60 seems to be 200 and at 52 it is 196, at least against Sasquatch.

It would be interesting to see if your base damage value at 100 is still 246 against Sasquatch or if it changed with the new boss.

Raistmar
05-31-2013, 08:00 AM
Don't know anything bout numbers but I just want point out hydra has an elemental advantage over Sasquatch hydra fire/water Sasquatch earth/spr. Fire>spr.

Also living flame has double advantage fire>spr and spr>earth.

Don't know if it affects your calculation though.

L C
05-31-2013, 08:13 AM
Definitely effects the calculation of base damage. good call, raistmar.

I also haven't delved heavily into this specific question, but was suspecting that knight level affected damage based purely on the increase in base stats with each level (up to 100). But I freely acknowledge that I haven't spent time on this portion of the calculations.

Still, good data accumulation by indestructigal. {tips hat}

indestructigal
05-31-2013, 08:13 AM
Oops! You're right ... I completely missed that. This solves my problem ... apparently Knight base damage goes up by 2.5 per level.



KLvl KAtt BLvl BDef Dam Num Ele UnM Base
60 951 4 172 1105 1 1.33 831 150.27
60 951 5 192 990 1 1.33 744 150.28
60 951 6 212 897 1 1.33 674 150.35
60 951 7 232 819 1 1.33 616 150.22
60 951 8 252 754 1 1.33 567 150.22
60 951 9 272 699 1 1.33 526 150.32
60 951 10 315 753 1.25 1.33 453 150.02
60 951 11 308 617 1 1.33 464 150.25
60 951 12 323 588 1 1.33 442 150.16
60 951 13 339 561 1 1.33 422 150.36
60 951 13 339 701 1.25 1.33 422 150.31
60 951 14 339 701 1.25 1.33 422 150.31
60 951 16 386 738 1.5 1.33 370 150.15

52 938 2 142 864 1 1.00 864 130.80
52 938 3 152 807 1 1.00 807 130.77
52 938 4 172 713 1 1.00 713 130.74
52 938 5 192 639 1 1.00 639 130.80
52 938 6 212 578 1 1.00 578 130.64
52 938 7 232 528 1 1.00 528 130.59
52 938 8 252 486 1 1.00 486 130.57
52 938 9 272 451 1 1.00 451 130.78


So, my base damage at level 52 is 2.5*52 = 130 and at level 60 is 150 = 2.5*60. So, at 100, the base is really 250 ... the numbers are all just a bit skewed by rounding errors.

This makes the formula: Elem Bonus*Number Bonus*(Knight Level *2.5)*(Knight Attack)/(Boss Defense)

Thanks!

indestructigal
05-31-2013, 12:41 PM
Just one quick follow-up, I happened to have an opportunity to collect data at level 61 against a level 17 Sasquatch.

At level 17, Sasquatch has 401 DEF. My Knight was level 61 wearing Living Flame with 953 ATT and had two friends helping. Using the formula, this is

ROUND(1.5 * 1.33 * 61 * 2.5 * 953 / 401, 0) = 723.

In combat, I was doing exactly 723 damage against Sasquatch.



The Boss damage formula still seems completely boggling. The formula BethMo posted in the OP definitely fits the data I've collected, but it seems very inelegant. I suspect that it is really close, but not exactly what the game uses. My Boos damage data also has slightly different results against level 52 knights vs level 60 knights. I haven't been able to figure out if this is just a rounding error or if defending knight level actually fits in the formula somewhere.

BethMo
06-05-2013, 04:56 PM
Sir dot asked me to add this:
Level 15 = pseudolevel 18-and-a-fraction
Level 21 = pseudolevel 24 (+3)
Level 28 = pseudolevel 31 (+3)
Level 35 = pseudolevel 39 (+4)
Level 43 = pseudolevel 47 (+4)
Level 51 = pseudolevel 55 (+4)
Level 60 = pseudolevel 67 (+7)

BethMo
06-06-2013, 12:11 AM
I don't think that's worth investigating.
You have to consider your health is vastly inferior to the boss's health.
Taking a minimum of 50% damage to deal even 50-100% more damage to the boss is a losing strategy.

Not always!

I pulled in a quote from near the beginning of this thread, because exactly this situation has come up this week (Flame Eater red-white boss). For my second knight, I had to choose between a level 70 swamp shaman+ and a mid-level tortoise+. As it turns out, the swamp shaman (two advantage elements, but one disadvantage) does more damage over the lifetime of the knight. And even when I get the tortoise leveled up, the swamp shaman will still be my third knight, as it's better than any of my other current choices.

(The swamp+ is close to twice the lifetime damage of my level 62 barbarian+ red-white, btw... that extra damage multiplier is overwhelming.)

Raistmar
06-21-2013, 08:03 AM
Just bumping this awsome thread, such a waste to see this get buried.

Musketeer
07-10-2013, 12:52 PM
I've been number crunching, and I believe I've approximated the formulas used to compute damage in the Epic Boss fights. These calculations come within 2 points of the actual damage for all of the hits I've recorded.

----------

Base Damage to boss by a level 100 knight = 246 * (my attack / boss armor) * advantage factor.
Advantage factor:
1 for single advantage element (i.e. Swamp Shaman vs. Jian)
1.33 for double advantage elements (i.e. AA armor vs Jian)
3 for Nemesis

This damage is then multiplied by 1, 1.25, 1.5, 1.75, or 2 depending on number of knights. Special attack gets an additional 1.5x multiplier. Some attacks will randomly get a miss (zero damage) or a critical hit (same as special attack).

----------

Damage done by the boss is more complicated; it depends on the boss's level, not just on its attack score. That's why the Jian at level 14 does a lot less damage than the last few week's bosses at level 60, even though they have the same attack/defense values. (Damage done by the knights may depend on the knight's level, too; I only have data from level 100 knights.)

----------

Base Damage to knight with no opposing elements = (boss attack / my armor) * magic number
Magic number:
Jian levels 1-19: 3 * (pseudolevel + 4)
Jian levels 20-?: (1.6 * pseudolevel) + 43 (tested up to level 37)
pseudolevel is the boss level except at the reward levels, where it's equal to the real level that is closest to the same attack/defense values. (level 15 = pseudolevel 19, level 21 = pseudolevel 24, level 28 = pseudolevel 31, level 35 = pseudolevel 39, etc. Level 60 = pseudolevel 67!)
----------

As with knight attacks, some boss attacks will randomly get a miss (zero damage) or a critical hit (1.5x damage).

I didn't start keeping detailed records of boss damage early enough to closely check this against previous bosses, but it matches for the ones that I did record.

I'm going to change my main knight's name to Theorycrafter now. :)

I see this has been said before, but if you start with base damage of 164 instead of 246 you avoid the rounding errors.

Thus:

No elemental advantage (why would you?) damage = 164 * (Your att/Boss Def)
One elemental advantage, damage = 164 * (Your att/Boss Def)*1.5
Two elemental advantages, damage = 164 * (Your att/Boss Def)*2
Nemesis damage = 164 * (Your att/Boss Def)*3

And them multiply as before by the 'number of knights' bonus.

Edit: Just tested this on the first 9 levels of Boreas and it worked perfectly. Any fractional hits are discarded, not rounded up.

Edit 2: Dragon attacks against my knight are not quite right by the formula, at least on level 12, but only out by 1 damage.

Lii
07-19-2013, 05:20 PM
So, I got sick of making qualified guesses for how many knights and which armors to use and instead implemented something that took all the great knowledge in this thread into account and helped me decide how to best beat the epic boss. That something ended up being tremendously helpful and I thought that it might help someone else too.

You can find my epic boss battle calculator on the following spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0As8tTdFx1BUkdEdaeFR6d1dHMGF1SXlMdGFwMjlFM Gc&usp=sharing

As it would probably be chaos if everyone used the same spreadsheet you will have to copy the workbook to you own google docs before you can use it. Not sure how selfexplanatory it is, but if you have questions feel free to thrown them at me.

Now this is my first version so there are a few things that it does not take into account. The biggest caveat currently is that I do not believe it works 100% for players below 100+. If someone have more info on that feel free to tell me and maybe I can change the calculator to take that into account too.

Thanks everyone in this thread for posting your findings and making it possible for me to do this :)

Happy hunting!

Roark
07-19-2013, 06:26 PM
thank you for this!

my next battle versus level 27 boss: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvOsNJZcCOQidFZ4Q3hzbGRXV1k5aTNMV005X0FwT 2c#gid=5

need to finish my flame summoner's shroud+, and I'm still waiting on Pyromancer's+, it will complete in 18 hours

Lii
07-20-2013, 11:03 AM
thank you for this!
my next battle versus level 27 boss: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvOsNJZcCOQidFZ4Q3hzbGRXV1k5aTNMV005X0FwT 2c#gid=5


I think you forgot to share your spreadsheet Roark? Atleast I can't open it.

/Lii

FlipDaddy
07-22-2013, 10:22 AM
Thanks BethMo and Lii!!

Roark
07-22-2013, 01:49 PM
I think you forgot to share your spreadsheet Roark? Atleast I can't open it.

/Lii

oops, changed it to shared

Lii
07-23-2013, 02:02 AM
oops, changed it to shared

Cool, I am happy you got it working. Hope you find it useful.

Not sure it is on purpose but it looks in your sheet like you have forgotten to add guild bonuses (could of course just mean your not in a guild) and remember to change the max level of the armor when using e.g. nemesis. I have actually made some updates to the calculator to make it default to the max level of the armor you choose. To avoid overconfident calculations when switching between armors to check which one is best and then forgetting to change the max level ;)

Marco_
07-23-2013, 03:33 AM
Not sure it is on purpose but it looks in your sheet like you have forgotten to add guild bonuses (could of course just mean your not in a guild)
Roark plays on Android, so no guilds yet.

Usul
08-09-2013, 05:06 PM
Bump it up.

Thanks for the great info!

DonutEnigma
08-20-2013, 02:58 PM
I'm level 44. The calculator is off by a lot at my level. Here's what I did:

My commander in AA+ 50/50 + lvl 100 friend in HH+ 50/50.
My guild has +4% in air/fire/water
Boss level 16 = 749/386, 14635 hp

So first thing I see is that when I take the guild bonuses away, the armor numbers are off by a bit. My health is correct however.

The calculator says I should've killed him easily with 21611 potential damage. 24k with crits. In reality I took the boss down to half in the first attempt. Then had to use up 5 more energy with the same group makeup to kill him.

Unfortunately I didn't record each attack made and his exact health since I'm at work and don't have the time to do it, but I can try again later with the level 17 boss.

DonutEnigma
08-20-2013, 06:44 PM
Alright I did it again at 17. Don't have individual attack numbers but I have final health value.

There were no misses along with judicious use of special attacks. I don't know exactly the upgrade values of the my friend's armors, so I put them in as a close approximation to the numbers they show

Here's the link to my spreadsheet: redacted

The boss won. He had 3903 health left. According to the sheet, with no misses, I should've gotten him to 429. Which is around 5-7 hits off.

cubey
08-20-2013, 06:50 PM
Alright I did it again at 17. Don't have individual attack numbers but I have final health value.

There were no misses along with judicious use of special attacks. I don't know exactly the upgrade values of the my friend's armors, so I put them in as a close approximation to the numbers they show

Here's the link to my spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Asv0i_nYLznCdDJjRVowQ0VyVTBtTU9PcHgyUmtjN kE&usp=sharing

The boss won. He had 3903 health left. According to the sheet, with no misses, I should've gotten him to 429. Which is around 5-7 hits off.

Don't forget, your friend's stats may be capped..

Marco_
08-20-2013, 07:08 PM
Don't forget, your friend's stats may be capped..
Yeah. Someone mentions numbers at http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?57042-FAQ-Breakdown-Frequently-Asked-Questions-by-the-beginners/page22

I guess for the calculations here, a level 100+ player is assumed.

Marquis
08-20-2013, 08:00 PM
Numbers make me sleepy

You really need to get yourself checked in at the hospital ... your sleepy AGAIN lol

DonutEnigma
08-20-2013, 11:07 PM
Don't forget, your friend's stats may be capped..

So basically the game's numbers are lying to me? :(

Revelate
08-21-2013, 12:29 AM
I'm level 44. The calculator is off by a lot at my level. Here's what I did:

My commander in AA+ 50/50 + lvl 100 friend in HH+ 50/50.
My guild has +4% in air/fire/water
Boss level 16 = 749/386, 14635 hp

So first thing I see is that when I take the guild bonuses away, the armor numbers are off by a bit. My health is correct however.

The calculator says I should've killed him easily with 21611 potential damage. 24k with crits. In reality I took the boss down to half in the first attempt. Then had to use up 5 more energy with the same group makeup to kill him.

Unfortunately I didn't record each attack made and his exact health since I'm at work and don't have the time to do it, but I can try again later with the level 17 boss.

Beth tracked down looking at Nehemiah's data that there's appears to be a straight penalty for not being level 100 (namely that the same armor at level 100 would produce more damage than worn at level 90 including the stat differential between 90 and 100 character level).

I've been poking away at the bosses on my alt and tracking damage done to see if it can be determined what the scaling factor is if any; @Donut: the friends are indeed capped by your main armor, it was explicitly a set function I thought at low levels but I had something strange which I didn't fully record (haven't been playing the alt much with the GW fiasco) where it may not be linearly scaled, namely my friends were doing nearly identical damage as my alt, and that was, well, unexpected.

I'll check again on whatever the next boss is as I had stopped tracking friend stats as it appeared to be a simple and known calculation.

Lii
08-21-2013, 01:23 PM
Alright I did it again at 17. Don't have individual attack numbers but I have final health value.

The boss won. He had 3903 health left. According to the sheet, with no misses, I should've gotten him to 429. Which is around 5-7 hits off.

Hi DonutEnigma,

As some have already mentioned the formulas in the calculator are unfortunately only accurate for level 100+ players. I have done some minor efforts trying to figure out how it works for sub level 100 players. But as I don't have an alt to test with and not enough time those efforts have not given much result yet.

Feedback I have gotten from other players that are sub 100 is that as long as you input your level and your armor values manually as they are given in the game you should have fairly accurate numbers for your own knights. However what is really off in the calculator is the damage done by hired friends due to the cap if you are under level 100 yourself.

If someone figured out the formulas for this I can easily update the calculator, until then I am afraid you will have to wait until you get to level 100 to use it. Or use it as an indicator on which armors you best use on your own knights to kill the boss.

/Lii

DonutEnigma
08-21-2013, 04:41 PM
Hey Lii,

I didn't know about the friend capping. I thought they had changed it since my friend's stats jumped by a lot a while ago. For this next boss I'll try to record everything and see what useful data, if any, I can come up with.

shin
09-20-2013, 10:05 PM
Hey Lil, if it's not too much trouble, can you explain/breakdown what the Magic Number is? I understand all of your formulas in the spreadsheet except for that.

Silent follower
09-20-2013, 11:47 PM
If someone figured out the formulas for this I can easily update the calculator, until then I am afraid you will have to wait until you get to level 100 to use it. Or use it as an indicator on which armors you best use on your own knights to kill the boss.

/Lii

My LLP is around lvl60, and I've been checking the friends hps and damage. It seems that they are 25% more than your main knight does/has. When I progress, I'll continue to check if this assumption is correct.

tollerach
09-22-2013, 05:44 PM
OP, thanks for the info. These are some detailed figures. These may help as I transition from normal boss armor to boss+.

BethMo
11-09-2013, 01:29 PM
Bumping this back up because someone asked about it.

bosskiller
11-11-2013, 10:06 AM
I would never put so much work into this.... :P Thanks!

Free bump!

cafedecoy
11-12-2013, 11:03 PM
Thanks for resurrecting the thread; I was looking for this :)

Well thanks to my brand new android tablet I received as a gift from my sweetie, I got to do a brand new install of the game, and explore this friend help capping limit as a low level knight. Im in the process of verifying some reproduceable patterns and I do think I can assist in refining the formula for boss fights. I need some time to level up the knights and try different scenarios (and be able to reach some landmark levels!).

For now, it seems like a correction factor applies for your friends:

Your friend's corrected hitpoints= (125% of your strongest knights hitpoints, or your friends original hitpoints, whichever is less)
Same 125% limit applies for base attack points (that is, base attack before element advantage bonus is applied)
No apparent capping for defense

the thing is, in certain scenarios, the capping effect does not seem to apply so I think I need a few more runs before stating anything definitively. I'll be back ;)

Oyster
11-13-2013, 04:04 AM
Thanks for resurrecting the thread; I was looking for this :)

Well thanks to my brand new android tablet I received as a gift from my sweetie, I got to do a brand new install of the game, and explore this friend help capping limit as a low level knight. Im in the process of verifying some reproduceable patterns and I do think I can assist in refining the formula for boss fights. I need some time to level up the knights and try different scenarios (and be able to reach some landmark levels!).

For now, it seems like a correction factor applies for your friends:

Your friend's corrected hitpoints= (125% of your strongest knights hitpoints, or your friends original hitpoints, whichever is less)
Same 125% limit applies for base attack points (that is, base attack before element advantage bonus is applied)
No apparent capping for defense

the thing is, in certain scenarios, the capping effect does not seem to apply so I think I need a few more runs before stating anything definitively. I'll be back ;)

omg.

Thanks so much for this!
There is an attack cap even for lvl 100+ for friends knights. I think the value is the same as well, which is 125%
I'll run more tests for this.

BUBER
11-24-2013, 08:24 AM
I ran some numbers with the help of a guildmate (thanks Stevens).
Even when your main Knight is Lvl100+ there is a cap for friends, max Attack and Defense is 125% of your own (as Cafedecoy pointed then element advantage bonus is applied).




omg.

Thanks so much for this!
There is an attack cap even for lvl 100+ for friends knights. I think the value is the same as well, which is 125%
I'll run more tests for this.

Gypsy Jokers
11-24-2013, 09:13 AM
Great Info Thanks Beth!










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