The case for stacking and not stacking boosts

[Miner]

There's two arguments I'd like to make. I would like them to be in a separate thread than the other "explain stacking" threads out there because I think this is a serious matter and one for which a serious argument should be made. Manbeast's thread (what's up buddy?) asks for an explanation of how the boosts are applied. This thread is a bit different.

Issue #1: Should boosts stack when multiple units of the exact same unit (literally, same unit ID) are obtained and when that unit carries a boost?

Answer: CJ has confirmed that "they can't make this happen" and nor should they ever. This is an accurate statement and a sound decision.

Support for Answer: I'm sure there are many reasons why this is answered in this manner. The largest is most likely that boost algorithms don't consider quantity by design. It would be an absolute disaster to the game if they did. We all know how easy it must be to hack units into your inventory (see it all the time, right?). Imagine if those did stack. Hackers would be building 80 buildings at once, would have 2000 air units with 30% more attack from air and have a 60,000% boost to their attack.


Issue #2: Should boosts stack when players obtain DIFFERENT units within the same item group (or variants of a particular unit) and those units carry a boost?

Answer: We've been told "they can't make this happen". But this does not appear to be truthful (sorry CJ). Yes, they can be configured to do so in spite of what we've been told. And yes, they should be.

Support for Answer: We don't need to look very far to find support that this can, indeed, be done and it can be done rather easily. Not long ago, the Deadly Bridge Jumper was included in a LTQ. This unit came with a -20% health regen bonus. This unit is within the "bridge jumper" item group. For example, the "Assault Bridge Jumper". Same image, same item group, different unit ID, tagged in the files with the same -20% health regen bonus. At first, these did not stack. Within a week, support responded to the requests and made these unit boosts stack if you had more than 1 member of the same unit item group. I can confirm because I have the Assault Bridge Jumper AND the Deadly Bridge Jumper and they both work now.

Now, I expect the next argument from Gree to be, "Well, we didn't intend to hand those units out in the first place." I can understand making mistakes. However, many players spent money to obtain these units in spite of the mistake. They weren't handed out. They were purchased with time or literally, money. Your intentions and the result need to be handled separately. Fix the boosts on the +2 energy units and then fix the internal problems which allowed these units to be included in the LTQ in the first place. Separate issues need separate responses.

So CJ and the rest of the support team, please consider this carefully and react appropriately. We know that boosts for units within the same item group CAN be stacked. Further, most players would never have suspected that these units were in fact, members of the same item group as you call them. Not correcting this issue is extremely mis-leading and could even be considered fraudulent even though the mistake was unintentional. Technically speaking, you've sold something you that doesn't perform as it was described.

[Tanner]

"Separate issues need separate responses."

If CJ has proven anything it's not just that he's NOT CCMark, but that he's most assuredly got a brain that functions at a high level. Furthermore, he appears to be able to make things happen w/in greeD.

CJ, our hopes are resting on you to bring resolution to this issue.

Thanks for breaking the issue out to a separate thread Miner.

[Miner]

CJ is one seriously smart dude and it's my opinion that he considers not just the technical side of things, but also the business side. It's refreshing to see and have him communicating with the forum. I should have included that in my original post.

I have absolutely NOTHING against that guy except for the fact that I wish he would respond to my tickets instead of that guy who's name starts with "V".

[Drama Llama]

I don't fully buy into the argument for bonuses not being able to stack because of hackers. Hacking could be dealt with by having checks in place to ensure that players do not have more than the allowed number of any one item. Limiting in this way is just another example of the kind of lazy code that is allowing hackers to hack so easily in the first place.

[Thief]

Couldn't have said it better myself Miner.

Its great having you back on the forums its just a shame we don't play on the same team anymore.

Issue #3

Those that legitamately earn 2-3 of the same unit that is Duplicated should be given different Units in the same group (once they "fix" issue number 2) Yes it would be a very manual process to fix but it is the solution that is required to make sure players feel fairly compensated. Then prevent all LTQ from having this issue in the future.

Thank you again Miner.

[Miner]

I don't fully buy into the argument for bonuses not being able to stack because of hackers. Hacking could be dealt with by having checks in place to ensure that players do not have more than the allowed number of any one item. Limiting in this way is just another example of the kind of lazy code that is allowing hackers to hack so easily in the first place.

True. My point is that the original boost algorithm's probably disregarded unit quantities by design as a method to limit damage if someone did hack. There's a ton of things they can do to secure the game. Until those are implemented (no small task -- I'm sure you would agree), they "can't" change the boost algorithm.

[Miner]

Its great having you back on the forums its just a shame we don't play on the same team anymore.

It's not MY FAULT that you're not in my faction. Get over here!

[BigD@wg]

I have been told all my life the word "can't" simply means "won't" and it's true. People have been saying can't for hundreds or thousands of years and someone else always comes along and proves it wrong. I'm sure people used to say, we can't make fire. We cant make a motorized vehicle. We cant make a cellphone that works like a computer. We can't put a man on the moon. We can't have a television that's 60". We can't this, we can't that.

The people who say they can't simply mean they won't or they aren't capable. There is no motivation for them to make it work. So it really isn't a matter of can't. It is matter of won't or a matter of no willingness to try. People CAN always find a way to make something work. It's all a matter of whether they are willing to try!

[Drama Llama]

Those that legitamately earn 2-3 of the same unit that is Duplicated should be given different Units in the same group (once they "fix" issue number 2) Yes it would be a very manual process to fix but it is the solution that is required to make sure players feel fairly compensated. Then prevent all LTQ from having this issue in the future.

This is the well reasoned response I should have given, completely agree!


True. My point is that the original boost algorithm's probably disregarded unit quantities by design as a method to limit damage if someone did hack. There's a ton of things they can do to secure the game. Until those are implemented (no small task -- I'm sure you would agree), they "can't" change the boost algorithm.

I'm sure it would be a complete pain to fix the way i mentioned and also a long term logistical nightmare lol so I wholeheartedly advocate Thief's solution as being a sensible course of action!

[Miner]

We can't put a man on the moon.

Wait. We put a man on the moon?! Holy crap! That's amazing!

[BigD@wg]

Miner -

I would have to respectfully disagree with your first part:

"Issue #1: Should boosts stack when multiple units of the exact same unit (literally, same unit ID) are obtained and when that unit carries a boost?

Answer: CJ has confirmed that "they can't make this happen" and nor should they ever. This is an accurate statement and a sound decision."

The only reason that I can think of for not allowing this would be to prevent people who hack the game from getting these units in mass quantity. Well IMO that is a bad reason. Fix the security in the game and that is no longer an issue.

Players that obtain the same unit through legitimate game play should be awarded the boost that accompanies that unit. I don't care if it was a mistake having released the units a second time. That's their problem and shouldn't be ours. People spend money to get these items knowing there is a boost. When that boost doesn't work then Gree needs to either make the boost work or swap the unit for a boost unit of equal value.

[Miner]

Maybe I should qualify my "nor should the ever". The should never allow them to stack until security is corrected and hacked accounts or removed from the game.

When I say it like that, maybe my response is accurate. Because that ^^^^^^ probably won't ever happen! ;)

[Tanner]

Wait. We put a man on the moon?! Holy crap! That's amazing!

to your credit, you posted your own thread, then rabbit trailed it all in one page.

+1 achievement points my friend! =)

btw, I don't buy it. picsoritdidn'thappen! =]

[pelle plutt]

I still understand what the challenges with identifying hackers is supposed to be, I know of at least 10 different clear indications that someone is hacking, it would only be a couple of hours for a developer to create the functionality that automatically searches through all players on the servers and highlights "suspects", i.e having a 1000+ transport raiders, being lvl250 without spending gold, having multiple copies of units only available one time, players upgrading multiple buildings (and not havinge that old collect 10 unit) etc.

the wast majority of these can be blocked directly (i.e. those outside clear boundaries of is possible even if playing 24/7, and the player is not spending sufficient gold to make up for it) (players can contact gree if the object to the blocks, and then a manual check can be made)

One of the more computer literate people on the forum could probably do the algorithm for Gree, (if they cannot figure it out)

thoughts?

[HGF69]

I'm thinking a lot of people are going to want iTunes and google play refunds if the answer turns out that units we spent gold to get are worthless because we have been misled and duped.

I'd be careful what you decide to tell the general public on this one as I have apple supports email handy.

[Hertz]

Thank you for this thread, miner. You are one class act.


There's two arguments I'd like to make. I would like them to be in a separate thread than the other "explain stacking" threads out there because I think this is a serious matter and one for which a serious argument should be made. Manbeast's thread (what's up buddy?) asks for an explanation of how the boosts are applied. This thread is a bit different.

Issue #1: Should boosts stack when multiple units of the exact same unit (literally, same unit ID) are obtained and when that unit carries a boost?

Answer: CJ has confirmed that "they can't make this happen" and nor should they ever. This is an accurate statement and a sound decision.

Support for Answer: I'm sure there are many reasons why this is answered in this manner. The largest is most likely that boost algorithms don't consider quantity by design. It would be an absolute disaster to the game if they did. We all know how easy it must be to hack units into your inventory (see it all the time, right?). Imagine if those did stack. Hackers would be building 80 buildings at once, would have 2000 air units with 30% more attack from air and have a 60,000% boost to their attack.


Issue #2: Should boosts stack when players obtain DIFFERENT units within the same item group (or variants of a particular unit) and those units carry a boost?

Answer: We've been told "they can't make this happen". But this does not appear to be truthful (sorry CJ). Yes, they can be configured to do so in spite of what we've been told. And yes, they should be.

Support for Answer: We don't need to look very far to find support that this can, indeed, be done and it can be done rather easily. Not long ago, the Deadly Bridge Jumper was included in a LTQ. This unit came with a -20% health regen bonus. This unit is within the "bridge jumper" item group. For example, the "Assault Bridge Jumper". Same image, same item group, different unit ID, tagged in the files with the same -20% health regen bonus. At first, these did not stack. Within a week, support responded to the requests and made these unit boosts stack if you had more than 1 member of the same unit item group. I can confirm because I have the Assault Bridge Jumper AND the Deadly Bridge Jumper and they both work now.

Now, I expect the next argument from Gree to be, "Well, we didn't intend to hand those units out in the first place." I can understand making mistakes. However, many players spent money to obtain these units in spite of the mistake. They weren't handed out. They were purchased with time or literally, money. Your intentions and the result need to be handled separately. Fix the boosts on the +2 energy units and then fix the internal problems which allowed these units to be included in the LTQ in the first place. Separate issues need separate responses.

So CJ and the rest of the support team, please consider this carefully and react appropriately. We know that boosts for units within the same item group CAN be stacked. Further, most players would never have suspected that these units were in fact, members of the same item group as you call them. Not correcting this issue is extremely mis-leading and could even be considered fraudulent even though the mistake was unintentional. Technically speaking, you've sold something you that doesn't perform as it was described.

[2nd dan]

I'm thinking a lot of people are going to want iTunes and google play refunds if the answer turns out that units we spent gold to get are worthless because we have been misled and duped.

I'd be careful what you decide to tell the general public on this one as I have apple supports email handy.

Can I have a copy of this e-mail as a back up please?

[Hank.]

Wait. We put a man on the moon?! Holy crap! That's amazing!

Yah, but NASA learned about Quality Assurance. Does GREE know about Quality Assurance -- NOT NO - HELL NO.

[solo.modernwar]

Miner, great thread, buddy... These kind of threads, like Devin's, are the ones I come to the forum for.

[kylekrol]

Great thread and thank you for voicing the these concerns in the right way, thread worth reading

[mxz]

They can just copy the info and give it the other unit sharing that boost ID a new one - and bam, it works. Just a small dataset change.

[Snowman]

Thank you for the post Miner! Very well put and states everyone's concerns. Mistake or not, the consumer shouldn't be punished for the company's error. Show you are a trustworthy company Gree and please handle this properly. This game is fun and we all enjoy playing it (even if we gripe), don't ruin it.