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ColdMaffiaBaroness
12-14-2012, 03:00 PM
Every time a school massacre occurs the topic of carrying guns in school by adults of age comes up.

For me as a big supporter of the Second Amendment I have always carried concealed.

So at university it was always odd not to. Even having a firearm in a car was a no no (I did anyhow)

So I'm curious how others feel about arming teachers and others who protect our children in absentia.

Abe Froman
12-14-2012, 05:45 PM
http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag96/qwerty9702/AE0924CF-99CC-473D-9C2E-E209F1354CF0-10445-0000104C0E5F2FAA_zps30a3324b.jpg

http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag96/qwerty9702/27B51574-F6E4-430D-AB2A-24A742F7B96D-10445-0000104C0DE0897F_zpsbc22adbf.jpg

ColdMaffiaBaroness
12-14-2012, 06:28 PM
Iteachem just got excited about teachers packing heat

http://www.digitaltrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Tesla-Gun.jpg

TonySpaghetti
12-14-2012, 06:56 PM
Every time a school massacre occurs the topic of carrying guns in school by adults of age comes up.

For me as a big supporter of the Second Amendment I have always carried concealed.

So at university it was always odd not to. Even having a firearm in a car was a no no (I did anyhow)

So I'm curious how others feel about arming teachers and others who protect our children in absentia.

Someone please explain to Captain Sweatpants here that having a penis is not the same as carrying a concealed weapon.

the_dude
12-14-2012, 07:31 PM
+1 for the name "captain sweatpants"

-1 for this thread

Scarface corleone
12-15-2012, 12:53 AM
Every time a school massacre occurs the topic of carrying guns in school by adults of age comes up.

For me as a big supporter of the Second Amendment I have always carried concealed.

So at university it was always odd not to. Even having a firearm in a car was a no no (I did anyhow)

So I'm curious how others feel about arming teachers and others who protect our children in absentia.

Go and fall off a building will ya, thats probably the dumbest idea ever.
"big supporter of the second amendment!" Awe inspiring words in light of recent events!

ColdMaffiaBaroness
12-15-2012, 06:31 AM
Go and fall off a building will ya, thats probably the dumbest idea ever.
"big supporter of the second amendment!" Awe inspiring words in light of recent events!

Scarface if indeed you live where your profile says understand there are differences in our cultures.

When I say I am a big supporter it means I want MORE guns in the hands of law abiding citizens to help end tragedies like this prior to them taking off. We had a mall shooting recently out west where this would have been a great example. Also, the VA tech shooting comes to mind.

You will never be able to eliminate guns from the planet, country, etc... So if you outlaw them then only outlaws end up with them and honest citizens are even weaker to defend themselves from senseless tragedies like this.

So, since you don't live here, aren't a part of our culture, don't understand our rights come from God not government, and refuse to eloquently make your points without resorting to ad hominem attacks like jump off a bridge.... Then feel free to exit this thread.

As for those who wish to express an intelligent thought regardless of how you feel about the issue..

Proceed.

Sasha54
12-15-2012, 09:08 AM
Scarface if indeed you live where your profile says understand there are differences in our cultures.

When I say I am a big supporter it means I want MORE guns in the hands of law abiding citizens to help end tragedies like this prior to them taking off. We had a mall shooting recently out west where this would have been a great example. Also, the VA tech shooting comes to mind.

You will never be able to eliminate guns from the planet, country, etc... So if you outlaw them then only outlaws end up with them and honest citizens are even weaker to defend themselves from senseless tragedies like this.

So, since you don't live here, aren't a part of our culture, don't understand our rights come from God not government, and refuse to eloquently make your points without resorting to ad hominem attacks like jump off a bridge.... Then feel free to exit this thread.

As for those who wish to express an intelligent thought regardless of how you feel about the issue..

Proceed.

So you're saying that GOD wants you to carry a gun - hmmmm, that's a new one.

Packing a gun at uni is fuc####d .......is that how you got the profs to pass you.....lol

ColdMaffiaBaroness
12-15-2012, 10:07 AM
Well since you avoided attacking me directly I will respond.

In America our founding and governing documents are the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

The Declaration of independence is a fantastic document and I suggest all should give it a read. It makes clear that the founders of our country believed that we are endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights Life Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

It goes on to explain that to secure these God given rights governments are instituted among men and the governments derive their powers from the consent of the governed i.e. the people. Finally, it makes clear that if any form of government engages in abuses of power it is not only the right but the duty to overthrow such government and provide new leaders to secure their future.

All of these ideas were unheard of at the time of their inclusion. Europe had centuries of leaders who claimed they had divine right to rule and religion was misused to the ends of the state. Also no one would rightly make clear to their subjects that if they were to get out of line they should be overthrown. This was a radicle departure from the norm.

These principles are what made America so successful and has led to it dominance as a world power.

You see the founding fathers believed that by having an armed citizen soldier we would act as a 4th part of the system of check and balances on the power of this country. Judicial, Legislative, Executive, and well a regulated Citizen led militia.

The Supreme Court of this land has recently upheld this controversial ideal by saying in fact yes it is important that citizens be able to protect themselves from tyranny and oppression by the government through the ownership of firearms.

If you do not like these ideas don't be angry with me. Be angry with those who founded the United States of America and enshrined these principles in our founding documents to ensure they continued in perpetuity.

I just happen to agree with their ideals, hence I live in the country. For those who disagree, they can discuss, work to change, and even choose to live elsewhere. It's simple.

mxz
12-15-2012, 10:34 AM
I agree with you. It's a shame that some people believe that their beliefs should be thrust unto others through the use of (government) force.

Though, Baroness, understand that a majority of British (and many other European peoples) do not believe in natural rights. We're sort of lucky, here in the US, that a majority of people still believe in the ideals eloquently penned by our founding (unfortunately we can't seem to elect a President, Senate or House that believe in the same things). Until then, our guns, resolve as Americans and commonly held belief in freedom are the only things that can protect us from evil.

We can't force the British to believe in freedom. People need to accept, believe in, sacrifice, and fight for freedom to truly understand it. It's easy to have an uninformed opinion about something (gosh, just look at some of the threads on here or look at Facebook and Twitter). After tragic events it's all too common to want to blame and point the finger at something else without facts. It's easy to say or want someone else's freedom or money to be taken away. The British have been very good at this throughout their history. So has Russia, the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, and just about any other powerful country. But so has the American government. Freedom is no easy, one step and one size fits all ideal. If there's one thing I've learned as I've grown, it's that one can only fight for their own freedom, not anyone else's. Forcing liberty upon someone is no more just than taking it away.

jobadass
12-15-2012, 11:38 AM
I agree with you. It's a shame that some people believe that their beliefs should be thrust unto others through the use of (government) force.

Though, Baroness, understand that a majority of British (and many other European peoples) do not believe in natural rights. We're sort of lucky, here in the US, that a majority of people still believe in the ideals eloquently penned by our founding (unfortunately we can't seem to elect a President, Senate or House that believe in the same things). Until then, our guns, resolve as Americans and commonly held belief in freedom are the only things that can protect us from evil.

We can't force the British to believe in freedom. People need to accept, believe in, sacrifice, and fight for freedom to truly understand it. It's easy to have an uninformed opinion about something (gosh, just look at some of the threads on here or look at Facebook and Twitter). After tragic events it's all too common to want to blame and point the finger at something else without facts. It's easy to say or want someone else's freedom or money to be taken away. The British have been very good at this throughout their history. So has Russia, the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, and just about any other powerful country. But so has the American government. Freedom is no easy, one step and one size fits all ideal. If there's one thing I've learned as I've grown, it's that one can only fight for their own freedom, not anyone else's. Forcing liberty upon someone is no more just than taking it away.exactly MXZ.
I don't try to tell people from other countries how they should run their lives. Why is it that everyone feels so free to point out what they hate so much about America and how we should run our lives?

People: It is our country's belief that an armed society is a free society. I'm not trying to suggest that everyone in the states is pro-gun, it's probably only a slight majority, but it is our Constitutional right to choose.

There are so many guns here, they could never all be taken away. It is part of our culture, I myself own a small arsenal. I hunt, shoot trap and enjoy target shooting. I also keep some at the ready in case someone comes in my house and threatens me or my family.

The problem with these mass murders needs to be addressed where the actual problem lies; treatment (or lack of) of the mentally disturbed.

Sasha54
12-15-2012, 11:39 AM
I agree with you. It's a shame that some people believe that their beliefs should be thrust unto others through the use of (government) force.

Though, Baroness, understand that a majority of British (and many other European peoples) do not believe in natural rights. We're sort of lucky, here in the US, that a majority of people still believe in the ideals eloquently penned by our founding (unfortunately we can't seem to elect a President, Senate or House that believe in the same things). Until then, our guns, resolve as Americans and commonly held belief in freedom are the only things that can protect us from evil.

We can't force the British to believe in freedom. People need to accept, believe in, sacrifice, and fight for freedom to truly understand it. It's easy to have an uninformed opinion about something (gosh, just look at some of the threads on here or look at Facebook and Twitter). After tragic events it's all too common to want to blame and point the finger at something else without facts. It's easy to say or want someone else's freedom or money to be taken away. The British have been very good at this throughout their history. So has Russia, the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, and just about any other powerful country. But so has the American government. Freedom is no easy, one step and one size fits all ideal. If there's one thing I've learned as I've grown, it's that one can only fight for their own freedom, not anyone else's. Forcing liberty upon someone is no more just than taking it away.

What's your big hate-on for the Brits. And since when don't they believe in freedom - or others' freedom

You guys were a bit late to that big party that Hitler threw - oh right - you only got involved when it hit your own soil.

Keep drinking the Kool Aid

This guy was a nutbar - hard to control that - however a nutbar who goes postal and grabs a knife - maybe can do a bit of damage - BUT a nutbar who has an arsenal handy can do more - and that seems to be happening more and more.
Norway was an isolated incident and so was Scotland. Your cases are not isolated.

Richie.
12-15-2012, 11:53 AM
British citizens have freedom... How misinformed some people are .. But we let people that have been trained and have strict guidelines and procedures protect us, unfortunately any old nutcase in America can buy a gun and go on a killing spree.

ColdMaffiaBaroness
12-15-2012, 11:58 AM
British citizens have freedom... How misinformed some people are .. But we let people that have been trained and have strict guidelines and procedures protect us, unfortunately any old nutcase in America can buy a gun and go on a killing spree.

That is an incredibly misinformed and uneducated opinion. If you were an American who has ever attempted to legally purchase a firearm you would be familiar with the background checks, paperwork, firearms training etc that is required.

As jobadass said, you don't need to comment on things you are uninformed on.

Olly1
12-15-2012, 12:09 PM
Someone please explain to Captain Sweatpants here that having a penis is not the same as carrying a concealed weapon.

That right there is the quote of the day.

Mxz, I think your values are slightly off. British people are allowed weapons, but only in the right circumstances/control. Any hill billy can buy one in America, and that's where the problem comes in. British people have to prove they have a need/suitable want for a gun. They need to have a bolted down gun locker. They need to have a clean (mental) health record, along with various other requirements. Buying a gun 'to shoot other people with a gun' is not the best strategy.

Baroness, try to be a tad more tactful with your comments. Having a discussion is cool, posting pictures to make a joke out of it comes across pretty bad.

British people do see a zero-tolerance avenue as the simple answer but that's pretty naive based on the current gun culture. Ie, it'll never happen and it ain't possible. But you gotta admit, if no one had guns, no one could shoot...no?

Edit: I should clarify my 'any hill billy' comment. Yes there are checks in America too, but with such a massive amount of guns everywhere, access to them is incredibly easy. Whether that's from a gun shop or from Billy-Bob down the alleyway. There are hardly any guns in UK. Especially the pistols that are available in America that you can hide down your pants.

Richie.
12-15-2012, 12:09 PM
Yeah those checks worked real well on the 20yr old kid that shot all those children...why on earth do you feel the need to own an arsenal of weapons... Is the country that messed up?

ColdMaffiaBaroness
12-15-2012, 12:15 PM
You guys were a bit late to that big party that Hitler threw - oh right - you only got involved when it hit your own soil.



Lowest I've seen you go yet Sasha maybe we should call all of your age people's the greatest generation as you clearly are an exception.

I care daily for a family member that served in WWII and lied about his age to enlist and free Europe. He marched to free it's people's and landed at Normandy on D day.

Today he lives in physical pain and extreme low mental capacity is left. I personally help to complete his daily functions like going to the bathroom, bathing etc. disparaging what He fought and sacrificed for and what so many died for is inexcusable.

ColdMaffiaBaroness
12-15-2012, 12:22 PM
Yeah those checks worked real well on the 20yr old kid that shot all those children...why on earth do you feel the need to own an arsenal of weapons... Is the country that messed up?

We do not know the full circumstances of the guns in this case yet. We do know

1. They were not purchased or licensed to him
2. They were purchased and licensed to his divorced mother.

Speculation can only guess as to why he had access to them maybe a parent purchasing them for a child as an attempt to bond? Who knows.

Either way there certainly will be unending postulation until the facts come out.

Scarface corleone
12-15-2012, 12:25 PM
@coldmafia.

You asked the question of wether or not teachers should have guns?
Well I say no..
Where would the said guns be stored?
I have children and I think it sucks that anyone should have to worry about sending their kids to school,
I don't know what the answer is but, I think your country should make assault rifles completely illegal.
How is a teacher going to defend his/ her students against basically another citizen,
Who now is dressed up almost like a soldier body armor and assault rifles,
This is my opinion and I'm entitled to it as I live in a free world also!

Are you saying because I live in Australia I have no right to comment on your laws..
Wow! Now that's funny

Richie.
12-15-2012, 12:26 PM
We do not know the full circumstances of the guns in this case yet. We do know

1. They were not purchased or licensed to him
2. They were purchased and licensed to his divorced mother.

Speculation can only guess as to why he had access to them maybe a parent purchasing them for a child as an attempt to bond? Who knows.

Either way there certainly will be unending postulation until the facts come out.

Can you see what the problem is though?

If he hadn't had such easy access this may never of occurred.

Do you really believe the answer to gun crime is to arm more civilians?

ColdMaffiaBaroness
12-15-2012, 12:32 PM
That right there is the quote of the day.

Mxz, I think your values are slightly off. British people are allowed weapons, but only in the right circumstances/control. Any hill billy can buy one in America, and that's where the problem comes in. British people have to prove they have a need/suitable want for a gun. They need to have a bolted down gun locker. They need to have a clean (mental) health record, along with various other requirements. Buying a gun 'to shoot other people with a gun' is not the best strategy.

Baroness, try to be a tad more tactful with your comments. Having a discussion is cool, posting pictures to make a joke out of it comes across pretty bad.

British people do see a zero-tolerance avenue as the simple answer but that's pretty naive based on the current gun culture. Ie, it'll never happen and it ain't possible. But you gotta admit, if no one had guns, no one could shoot...no?

Edit: I should clarify my 'any hill billy' comment. Yes there are checks in America too, but with such a massive amount of guns everywhere, access to them is incredibly easy. Whether that's from a gun shop or from Billy-Bob down the alleyway. There are hardly any guns in UK. Especially the pistols that are available in America that you can hide down your pants.

Lived in both countries mate and am hardly a British hater.

Not sure if you have the same experience (of living and owning firearms in both countries) or not but mine varies vastly.

Throw a rock at a dope boy down on Piccadilly and you will find a handgun no problem.

Also linsceing process for gun ownership in UK is not all that different from US minus a few points. No in person doctor visit required in US as is in UK, and self defense is a valid reason in US and isn't in UK.

Other similarities include issuance of restricting devices with sale such as locks and safes. Checks on mental background and criminal.

Also the UK is a broad description as laws vary from country to country just as they do from state to state in US.

the_dude
12-15-2012, 12:33 PM
Can you see what the problem is though?

If he hadn't had such easy access this may never of occurred.

Do you really believe the answer to gun crime is to arm more civilians?

Wrong, anyone is capable of making explosives from everyday items that can do the same damage or worse than this ahole.

ColdMaffiaBaroness
12-15-2012, 12:35 PM
@coldmafia.

You asked the question of wether or not teachers should have guns?
Well I say no..
Where would the said guns be stored?
I have children and I think it sucks that anyone should have to worry about sending their kids to school,
I don't know what the answer is but, I think your country should make assault rifles completely illegal.
How is a teacher going to defend his/ her students against basically another citizen,
Who now is dressed up almost like a soldier body armor and assault rifles,
This is my opinion and I'm entitled to it as I live in a free world also!

Are you saying because I live in Australia I have no right to comment on your laws..
Wow! Now that's funny

Now this is legitimate debat and discussion I agree you bring up great questions about arming teachers. This is a topic that comes up every time a shooting at a school occurs. Hence the thread.

Not 100% sure where I personally stand as I see both sides to the issue. Personally I would selfishly want to carry for my own safety if I were a teacher. However, not sure I would want to extend that to every teacher as that may foment more violence if one of them snaps.

ColdMaffiaBaroness
12-15-2012, 12:38 PM
Can you see what the problem is though?

If he hadn't had such easy access this may never of occurred.

Do you really believe the answer to gun crime is to arm more civilians?

Part A: yes I do see how if the mother had not allowed easy access to a mentally disabled child deadly weapons this would not occurred. We agree.

Prt B: I do believe the answer most of the time is to foment open possession of firearms by RESPONSIBLE law abiding citizens as a check not only on the powers of the government but also on criminals and madmen like him.

An armed society is a polite society.

Abe Froman
12-15-2012, 12:49 PM
Can you see what the problem is though?

If he hadn't had such easy access this may never of occurred.

Do you really believe the answer to gun crime is to arm more civilians?

This is laughable to think that someone hell bent on causing this much destruction would be deterred by guns being made illegal. That assumes he would care about breaking anti-gun laws before commiting the crime when in reality he would have just gotten them by illegal means. Use some common sense before you type.

Making guns illegal does not eliminate the existance of them.

Scarface corleone
12-15-2012, 01:04 PM
Has anyone seen the movie "we need to talk about Kevin"
There are a few similarities in this latest tragedy.

I'm not saying it's copied from that, just a bit uncanny,
I'm not going to debate this topic anymore as I don't see the point!

I will say to brothers/sisters in the U.S. you guys really need to sort this out, yes these tragedies occur all over the world,
But it's becoming quite a common theme.

Good luck to you all! Heres hoping your leaders can come up with some new offensives on trying to minimize these tragedies.

Olly1
12-15-2012, 01:07 PM
It seems to all boil down to access. I've only owned in UK, and experienced in USA

In UK guns are kept in locked gun cabinets that are bolted to walls. Sure, in London (you're right about Piccadilly too, Baroness!) there are some people that have managed to get them but its still fairly rare

In USA they're kept in drawers, under beds, down the side of sofas. (You get royally a s s r@ped doing that in the UK) Although we don't have the facts it sounds like this kid found the gun lying around at one of his relatives. As it wasn't locked up its possible that relative didn't even know it had gone.

If a sensible owner locks their gun up it's then not possible for Junior to go and help himself. Gun licences are great, but completely pointless if someone without a licence has access to your gun

Coldcommander
12-15-2012, 01:10 PM
Lets face it there are many ways to kill people by the masses. Placing a bomb in a crowded area, driving a car into a crowd of people, setting fires and trapping people inside to burn. We have seen all these types of tragedies living in a world that has evil lurking around every corner. My wife is a school teacher and this hits very close to home. We are also responsible gun owners that keep our guns in a bolted down fire proof floor safe. I would not want my wife to have to be carrying a firearm at school to protect herself. What happens when you have a teacher that decides to snap and be the one to go on a rampage.

For those that think taking all the guns away is the answer, we'll good luck finding all the guns. What you end up with is criminals having guns, and responsible gun owners helpless.

My answer would be placing a armed security person at schools that has proper training. They would be able to respond quicker to situations when these things happen. Better security put in place so it's not so easy to walk into schools. I know my wife's school is a locked down facility and you have to enter through the front office to gain access to the elementary school. Yes this comes with costs but something has to be done. The local high schools here have a Sherif office and officer during school hours present. I know this is not a solution but it might save lives with quicker response times, as sick people will always be present, and it seems to only be getting worse.

mxz
12-15-2012, 01:12 PM
What's your big hate-on for the Brits. And since when don't they believe in freedom - or others' freedom

You guys were a bit late to that big party that Hitler threw - oh right - you only got involved when it hit your own soil.

Keep drinking the Kool Aid

This guy was a nutbar - hard to control that - however a nutbar who goes postal and grabs a knife - maybe can do a bit of damage - BUT a nutbar who has an arsenal handy can do more - and that seems to be happening more and more.
Norway was an isolated incident and so was Scotland. Your cases are not isolated.My point is that we have different definitions of freedom. What Baroness, jobadass and I call liberty/freedom is probably better defined as a belief in Natural Rights. A good illustration of this is that we believe people are born with arms - they have the right to swing those arms around as they wish. That right stops in the few inches between their arms and my nose. To us, being able to swing your arms around recklessly and merrily, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else's rights is freedom. This has never been well understood by majorities in many other countries.

The European version of freedom is a Positive Rights view. That is, that you are a subject of society and that the government gives you any rights you may need. So, the government may give you the right to own a weapon, but one does not get rights simply be being born (a very stark difference from the American definition). This is coupled with the belief that freedom is the ability to vote.

The problem, in my view, is that any majority can decide which rights any group of citizenry should be granted or taken away at any time. Going back to your example - Germans, by the British/European definition were free. They voted for their leaders and representatives just as British, French, Spanish, etc.. peoples did. Yes, even Jews were considered to have freedom.

There's nothing to prevent a similar vote for the Final Solution (which was legally passed my a majority in the legislature and signed into law by their head of State) in any of those countries. I'm not suggesting it would be done (mostly on morale grounds). However, American definitions of freedom explicitly prevent the government by doing so via rights to self-expression, practice of religion and probably the greatest asset: the right to self-defense (or bear arms, as it is expressly written). It's hard to imagine American soldiers roaming the streets executing members of a minority group (especially a group that is well armed).

ColdMaffiaBaroness
12-15-2012, 01:15 PM
Lets face it there are many ways to kill people by the masses. Placing a bomb in a crowded area, driving a car into a crowd of people, setting fires and trapping people inside to burn. We have seen all these types of tragedies living in a world that has evil lurking around every corner. My wife is a school teacher and this hits very close to home. We are also responsible gun owners that keep our guns in a bolted down fire proof floor safe. I would not want my wife to have to be carrying a firearm at school to protect herself. What happens when you have a teacher that decides to snap and be the one to go on a rampage.

For those that think taking all the guns away is the answer, we'll good luck finding all the guns. What you end up with is criminals having guns, and responsible gun owners helpless.

My answer would be placing a armed security person at schools that has proper training. They would be able to respond quicker to situations when these things happen. Better security put in place so it's not so easy to walk into schools. I know my wife's school is a locked down facility and you have to enter through the front office to gain access to the elementary school. Yes this comes with costs but something has to be done. The local high schools here have a Sherif office and officer during school hours present. I know this is not a solution but it might save lives with quicker response times, as sick people will always be present, and it seems to only be getting worse.

Now I'm remembering why I liked you. Tough situation indeed. Despite being an obvious die hard gun owner situations like these makes you question your beliefs and open them to challenges of other thought.

ColdMaffiaBaroness
12-15-2012, 01:19 PM
Has anyone seen the movie "we need to talk about Kevin"
There are a few similarities in this latest tragedy.

I'm not saying it's copied from that, just a bit uncanny,
I'm not going to debate this topic anymore as I don't see the point!

I will say to brothers/sisters in the U.S. you guys really need to sort this out, yes these tragedies occur all over the world,
But it's becoming quite a common theme.

Good luck to you all! Heres hoping your leaders can come up with some new offensives on trying to minimize these tragedies.

Scarface haven't seen it what all were the similarities?

Also I hope you will continue to voice your opinions as they aren't useless. They cause us all to question our tightly held beliefs and hopefully allow us to all grow. That's also what America was founded on freedom to openly discuss, debate and challenge each other through a rigorous exercise of the first amendment (backed up by the second ;)

Richie.
12-15-2012, 01:24 PM
This is laughable to think that someone hell bent on causing this much destruction would be deterred by guns being made illegal. That assumes he would care about breaking anti-gun laws before commiting the crime when in reality he would have just gotten them by illegal means. Use some common sense before you type.

Making guns illegal does not eliminate the existance of them.

Missing the point as usual.. Can't discuss with some narrow minded people...

i am trying to say that no guns will mean less incidents of this nature, sure there will be people that source guns illegally,
Same in any country, but i bet you have more gun crime than most.

Did this guy just one day flip, grabbed his mothers guns and go on a rampage... Would he been able to if they were not so easy to get...

Richie.
12-15-2012, 01:25 PM
Double post...deleted.

Scarface corleone
12-15-2012, 01:25 PM
@cold mafia
Similarities were young guy kills his parents then goes to a school and kills children,
However in the film he was using a bow and arrow,

I'm not arguing your right to own a gun! Australians have the right to own guns..
I just don't see the point in anyone needing to own an assault rifle!

Imo!!

mxz
12-15-2012, 01:26 PM
Another point - guns are a scapegoat. Guns aren't killing American, British, Canadian and other NATO soldiers overseas - IEDs (or Improvised Explosive Devices) are. Banning Iraqiis and Afghans from owning guns did not prevent our highly trained brothers and sisters in the military from being killed.

If a couple thousand people without running water or electricity can win two wars against one of the most technologically advanced and highly trained fighting force of all time - how do you think they'd fair against 100 million (that's a guess) armed, smart and motivated US citizens? It matters little if you banned guns - there are probably 50,000 or more "nutjobs" that know much more advanced ways to inflict mass casualties on others than simply mixing diesel + fertilizer and detonating via a cell phone or pressure plate.

Another good example of how banning things doesn't work: flying these days. Not one terrorist attempt has been stopped by the TSA. Not one. All the successfully stopped plots were due to regular everyday "nutjobs" that have the right to defend themself. And trust me when I say there are much much more dangerous things that are allowed through TSA checkpoints and onto planes than the boxcutters, toenail clippers and 4oz containers they take from you.

ColdMaffiaBaroness
12-15-2012, 01:28 PM
My point is that we have different definitions of freedom. What Baroness, jobadass and I call liberty/freedom is probably better defined as a belief in Natural Rights. A good illustration of this is that we believe people are born with arms - they have the right to swing those arms around as they wish. That right stops in the few inches between their arms and my nose. To us, being able to swing your arms around recklessly and merrily, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else's rights is freedom. This has never been well understood by majorities in many other countries.

The European version of freedom is a Positive Rights view. That is, that you are a subject of society and that the government gives you any rights you may need. So, the government may give you the right to own a weapon, but one does not get rights simply be being born (a very stark difference from the American definition). This is coupled with the belief that freedom is the ability to vote.

The problem, in my view, is that any majority can decide which rights any group of citizenry should be granted or taken away at any time. Going back to your example - Germans, by the British/European definition were free. They voted for their leaders and representatives just as British, French, Spanish, etc.. peoples did. Yes, even Jews were considered to have freedom.

There's nothing to prevent a similar vote for the Final Solution (which was legally passed my a majority in the legislature and signed into law by their head of State) in any of those countries. I'm not suggesting it would be done (mostly on morale grounds). However, American definitions of freedom explicitly prevent the government by doing so via rights to self-expression, practice of religion and probably the greatest asset: the right to self-defense (or bear arms, as it is expressly written). It's hard to imagine American soldiers roaming the streets executing members of a minority group (especially a group that is well armed).

Well said...

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31948405.jpg

Scarface corleone
12-15-2012, 01:34 PM
I recently took a trip to Phuket, Thailand.
Anyone there can walk in off the street to a shooting range, select what gun you would like to shoot, and go for it,
Without having to produce even my drivers license. I choose the desert eagle 6.0,

That was the first time I've ever shot a gun!
The man behind the counter provides no safety goggles or any basic instruction on how to use the guns.
Just point and shoot..


I guess the point I'm trying to make is maybe it's a culture thing in the U.S?
I'm not sure, but there it is probably more easier to get a gun, but the mass shootings just don't happen,

ColdMaffiaBaroness
12-15-2012, 01:38 PM
I recently took a trip to Phuket, Thailand.
Anyone there can walk in off the street to a shooting range, select what gun you would like to shoot, and go for it,
Without having to produce even my drivers license. I choose the desert eagle 6.0,

That was the first time I've ever shot a gun!
The man behind the counter provides no safety goggles or any basic instruction on how to use the guns.
Just point and shoot..


I guess the point I'm trying to make is maybe it's a culture thing in the U.S?
I'm not sure, but there it is probably more easier to get a gun, but the mass shootings just don't happen,

Now maybe you are on to something...it's not the guns or the access but those behind it.

Maybe this is a reflection on current values of the youth of America? Or a result of playing ever increasingly violent games manufactured by Japaneese companies like Gree. LMAO sorry couldn't help it.

ColdMaffiaBaroness
12-15-2012, 01:39 PM
I recently took a trip to Phuket, Thailand.
Anyone there can walk in off the street to a shooting range, select what gun you would like to shoot, and go for it,
Without having to produce even my drivers license. I choose the desert eagle 6.0,

That was the first time I've ever shot a gun!
The man behind the counter provides no safety goggles or any basic instruction on how to use the guns.
Just point and shoot..


I guess the point I'm trying to make is maybe it's a culture thing in the U.S?
I'm not sure, but there it is probably more easier to get a gun, but the mass shootings just don't happen,

And that ain't all you can get off the street in Thailand TRUST ME its like fire from a desert eagle

Scarface corleone
12-15-2012, 01:43 PM
And that ain't all you can get off the street in Thailand TRUST ME its like fire from a desert eagle

Lmao! I wouldnt know I was with my girlfriend

Scarface corleone
12-15-2012, 01:45 PM
Sorry about the "go fall off a building comment"
I didnt realize you were going to be open to all sides of the discussion!!

ColdMaffiaBaroness
12-15-2012, 02:07 PM
Sorry about the "go fall off a building comment"
I didnt realize you were going to be open to all sides of the discussion!!

No worries! That's the point of this thread I'm interested in hearing all sides to better inform my position and help to cope with such a tragedy.

Stock Slayer
12-15-2012, 02:26 PM
I quickly got my concealed carry permit right after I left the military. I carry this puppy everywhere. I have jumped into a firefight before to help my comrades and I would gladly do it again. When the police aren't around, I take great pride in knowing that I am the first/last line of defense for the hundreds of unprotected civilians around me. I carried it in my bag to school everyday because you just never know. I am a good guy, I would never think of harming an innocent. This kind of calamity has me so upset.

Stock Slayer
12-15-2012, 02:33 PM
Not to mention that we as a society have pissed all over Gd and His laws and we are paying the price in spades. We no longer have a moral compass. Religion is the backbone of morality and liberal retards continue to decimate a good thing with their own perverted senses of right and wrong. This is how we know Gd wrote the Old Testament. Man can't handle a task that big without adding his own measly two cents in.

mxz
12-15-2012, 03:40 PM
Slayer, you know I love ya, respect you and agree with you so don't take my nitpicking the wrong way - but freedom wasn't given by God. We always had it, with or without God. God gave us the choice of freedom by allowing free will - and the ability to choose liberty, democracy or autocracy.

Stock Slayer
12-15-2012, 03:58 PM
Slayer, you know I love ya, respect you and agree with you so don't take my nitpicking the wrong way - but freedom wasn't given by God. We always had it, with or without God. God gave us the choice of freedom by allowing free will - and the ability to choose liberty, democracy or autocracy.anything you say I understand is coming from a rather intelligent and rational mind. Your two cents is well received. Thanks. I agree with what you posted.
My point was that we have chosen to remove Gd from our minds so whatever we deem right and wrong seems to be the opposite of what Gd wants from us. Our purpose on this planet is to perfect His world. Gd left it a slight mess for us to elevate ourselves and perfect humanity. How we have gone about doing that is our free will at play.
Dammit. Lost my train of thought

I gotta run but mxz, you're good people. I've got a hot date with a beautiful Israeli girl. I'm excited. Lol

Abe Froman
12-15-2012, 04:24 PM
Missing the point as usual.. Can't discuss with some narrow minded people...

i am trying to say that no guns will mean less incidents of this nature, sure there will be people that source guns illegally,
Same in any country, but i bet you have more gun crime than most.

Did this guy just one day flip, grabbed his mothers guns and go on a rampage... Would he been able to if they were not so easy to get...


Sorry, but I think it is you that are missing the point...you say no guns will mean less incidents. How do you propose this no guns rationale? We already have them. Short of the US government going door to door and searching everyone's house with the intent to confiscate, do you expect US citizens to just turn them in? You don't know America so well Jack, come try and take my guns away.

And to your other point, I could be wrong, but no....I don't think he just snapped. I think he planned it to some degree, thereby giving himself time to arm himself to the teeth even if the guns were not so easily accessable. He had a bulletproof vest on too. Pretty sure he didn't steal that from his moms collection, so I'm thinking he got that ahead of time, don't ya think? Without his mothers arms, he would have gotten them from somewhere or just built a homemade bomb from household items as others have suggested. To think that someone that depraved would just give up his mission bc of accessability or illegality is plain ignorant. Do America a favor and worry about your own country.

CJ54
12-15-2012, 04:25 PM
I realize we've got some rational discussion (mostly) in here, but we have to stick by the rules. No politics, no religious discussion.