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moneybags
11-19-2012, 05:36 AM
Im at level 88 with an IPH of 1,107,288. So all the good upgrades are pretty expensive at this point. I fi'gured that upgrading my cement factory would only benefit me in the long run. I'm at level five now but it will probably take me another week to finish it to level 10. It just seems like the benefit of have 10% of upgrade cost is really not that big of a deal because of my high IPH. I always have cash laying around to spend. Do you guys think its worth the time to upgrade with such a low benefit to cost ratio?

Fl@sh
11-19-2012, 05:45 AM
Think of it this way. Any big upgrades take time to save money. If your cement factory is topped out(mine is), it saves you time of having to save money. So it not only saves you money, it saves you time as well.

moneybags
11-19-2012, 05:48 AM
my IPH is solid but I really need to get my attack up. its at 35k and my defense is at 55k!!

Miner
11-19-2012, 05:51 AM
Flash is right. I always look at it in terms of saving time rather than cash. I use the cement factory right now while saving up. Would like to get it to 10 (at 7 now). With some of these 200-300 mil upgrades, you start saving a day or two of collecting.

moneybags
11-19-2012, 05:53 AM
Do you guys have a strategy for upgrading buildings at such a high IPH level. how do you guys decide on what to upgrade ?

Fl@sh
11-19-2012, 05:54 AM
If your unit buildings are fully upgraded(Dry Docks, Advanced Airbase) you could upgrade the cement factory while stockpiling high cash units to fortify your army. If those buildings are not upgraded, I would go in that direction first.

Miner
11-19-2012, 05:56 AM
Flash is right again! Just do whatever he says.

manbeast
11-19-2012, 05:57 AM
Cement factory is one of the worst buildings out there. Funzio made a horrible decision when the put it at a 10% max then released a crate prize that does the same thing but 30%.

I left mine at lvl 2 forever. I know in the long run it may save time and money but I did the calculations and it never paid off. I could increase my economy by 5 percent in the time it takes decrease my upgrade cost by 1%? No deal.

Recently I have upgraded it a little more. Still don't believe in it. Just upgrading cheap stuff to save money.

moneybags
11-19-2012, 06:13 AM
I agree with manbeast on this one. The calculations just don't add up!

mickymacirl
11-19-2012, 06:28 AM
I believe cem factory is as important as comp factory, saves a lot of cash in the long run.

Dockman
11-19-2012, 06:51 AM
As i see it, any money or time saved in this games cant do anything but help. Both my cement factory and composites factory are both 10's.

PIRATE JUSTICE
11-19-2012, 07:11 AM
I know some hackers who would argue for alternatives.

One says, why pay for what you can get free.

Another says, money can be created quicker by other means.

Those hackers are heroes in my eyes.

Arizona
11-19-2012, 07:30 AM
When you have an upgrade costing hundreds of millions and up, you might notice the benefit of not having to hold onto unvaulted money for so long. Might save yourself a few days and 10's of millions. That's on one upgrade on one building.
You might find it more profitable to increase your economy in the lower levels, but higher upgrades, I think it's worth the price to get it to L10.

bushobama
11-19-2012, 08:00 AM
the sooner you upgrade the cement factory the better, I chose to hit lvl 8 a while ago and it's paid off. I would say if you plan on upgrading it do it now.

Thief
11-19-2012, 09:18 AM
It all Depends on your Play Style I suppose. I knew that eventually i wanted to reach 1.5 Million and try to get some of the more expensive upgrades to level 10 so i figured it would pay for itself eventually when i started to upgrade. I needed something that wasn't expensive to upgrade so i could buy Troops for the Boss Battle....

With that being said it takes almost a month to upgrade it from lvl 1 to lvl 10 so honestly i probably still haven't paid for it with it having been upgraded 5 months ago and i'm paying for expensive upgrades right now. I think with Level 8 Oil Rigs and Level 5 Nano's and Beyond it will finally have "paid" for itself. Basically i don't reccomend it unless you are trying to buy Aircraft Carriers or SB for the next month as it will pay for itself with the high cost of those upgrades but you loose "time"

Tctiger
11-19-2012, 09:25 AM
Will save money and time , if you got attacked and lost money 1 hour before you had enough money for the upgrade you would wish you did it , mines at level 10 and it will take more like 3-4 weeks to go from 5-10 but once it's done you never have to upgrade it again , just think if you was a little short on cash so had to leave it unprotected for another night that could make a major difference .

FromAfar
11-19-2012, 09:58 AM
the flaw in your theory is this. for those that don't do gold, like me, i will not have the crate prize. but even if i did, the additional 10% reduction is worth it. 3m on the level 5 old rig upgrade is good money.

and on 2 upgrades, it is more the 1 AC. so for free players it is, or can be, very helpful.


Cement factory is one of the worst buildings out there. Funzio made a horrible decision when the put it at a 10% max then released a crate prize that does the same thing but 30%.

I left mine at lvl 2 forever. I know in the long run it may save time and money but I did the calculations and it never paid off. I could increase my economy by 5 percent in the time it takes decrease my upgrade cost by 1%? No deal.

Recently I have upgraded it a little more. Still don't believe in it. Just upgrading cheap stuff to save money.

Ryans67
11-19-2012, 10:16 AM
I stopped at 5. In this game, upgrade time is the only finite resource absent use of gold. Yea it will save you cash, but cash is readily available. Even on a $300m upgrade, your talking about saving $15m if you took the cement past level 5. It takes 17.5 days of upgrade time to go from 5-10. I will consider upping it while saving after all of my boosts are topped out.

If your stats are high and you can go over vault without fear of losing it, don't bother...

And flash has the 2x upgrade buildings unit, in which case the cement becomes more valuable. ;)

Corsair
11-19-2012, 10:18 AM
I used to think the same as manbeast, but have come around to what Fl@sh and others have said. It's not about ROI in money, you may or may not ever get that back, though I think it likely you will. But generally your big cash infusions are spread out more during the day. Having the discount can, for example, save you having to wait another 12 hours to collect nanos to have enough for an upgrade. With the really big upgrades it can save a day or two, as Arizona said.

Oh and your assumption on time is too short, it'll take more like 2.5 to 3 weeks to go from 5 to 10. But that would be a good time to put your money into units, though as Fl@sh said if you haven't upgraded those yet you may need to do that first. Sounds like you've spent a lot of time IPH farming, now might be the time to think beyond that.

boardgames rule
11-19-2012, 10:49 AM
OR you can save for a big upgrade. thats what i did willl upgrading it i saved and bought OR 6 for 52mil. Now i rarely lose a battle so its fine and long upgrade times so it works out great.

Baraka
11-19-2012, 02:19 PM
It's definatly worth it when you at a higher leve and doing big upgrades. I just did my Rig to 9 which cost me 243 mill with my level 9 cement. It would of been well over 150 with out. 10 million saving is pretty good and half a day less saving. For sure it's a good building. Not so much at lower levels.

General Soviet
11-19-2012, 04:09 PM
It was very helpful to me when I was building my Nanos. Not too good for low levels though, since they can't even buy high priced buildings yet.

manbeast
11-19-2012, 11:39 PM
the sooner you upgrade the cement factory the better, I chose to hit lvl 8 a while ago and it's paid off. I would say if you plan on upgrading it do it now.

horrible advice. if you are going to upgrade the cement factory you should at least wait until you are at 1 million iph.

you will end up with more cash, higher IPH, all in a faster time if you ignore the cement factory in low levels.

it has been said, cement factory from 5-10 takes around 4 weeks. Thats a whole month for a 5% discount!!! screw that. lets say you have 2 players both at 100k iph. one decides to do cement factory 5-10 for a month, the other works on money buildings. After a month they both want to do an upgrade that costs 3 million. player A only has to pay 2.7 million. with 100k iph it will take him 27 hrs to save up. player b now has an income of 200k (at least) and must pay 2.85 milion. this will take him 14 hours!! Now player b has more money and can save up for upgrades faster than player a. He will continue to pull away from player A. Player A will not catch up.

even after the cement factory is complete it DOUBLED the amount of time required to save for an upgrade because it COSTS you IPH. the IPH you could have gained while wasting your time upgrading the cement factory.

now once you are above 1 million iph it makes helps a little. won't give you a major advantage though.


the flaw in your theory is this. for those that don't do gold, like me, i will not have the crate prize. but even if i did, the additional 10% reduction is worth it. 3m on the level 5 old rig upgrade is good money.

and on 2 upgrades, it is more the 1 AC. so for free players it is, or can be, very helpful.


i dont have the draughtmen either. it pisses me off when i see people who have it and their IPH is only 50k. i destroy them. they have such a powerful gift and havent even put it to use.

Shinazueli
11-19-2012, 11:58 PM
horrible advice. if you are going to upgrade the cement factory you should at least wait until you are at 1 million iph.

you will end up with more cash, higher IPH, all in a faster time if you ignore the cement factory in low levels.

it has been said, cement factory from 5-10 takes around 4 weeks. Thats a whole month for a 5% discount!!! screw that. lets say you have 2 players both at 100k iph. one decides to do cement factory 5-10 for a month, the other works on money buildings. After a month they both want to do an upgrade that costs 3 million. player A only has to pay 2.7 million. with 100k iph it will take him 27 hrs to save up. player b now has an income of 200k (at least) and must pay 2.85 milion. this will take him 14 hours!! Now player b has more money and can save up for upgrades faster than player a. He will continue to pull away from player A. Player A will not catch up.

even after the cement factory is complete it DOUBLED the amount of time required to save for an upgrade because it COSTS you IPH. the IPH you could have gained while wasting your time upgrading the cement factory.

now once you are above 1 million iph it makes helps a little. won't give you a major advantage though.




i dont have the draughtmen either. it pisses me off when i see people who have it and their IPH is only 50k. i destroy them. they have such a powerful gift and havent even put it to use.

Mathematically, he is correct. The sooner you upgrade it; the faster it starts saving you 10%. You have the right idea though, since unless you are cash starved, the real resource is time. But cement factory to level five or so should be an early goal.

manbeast
11-20-2012, 12:06 AM
Mathematically, he is correct. The sooner you upgrade it; the faster it starts saving you 10%. You have the right idea though, since unless you are cash starved, the real resource is time. But cement factory to level five or so should be an early goal.

Technically yes it is saving you 10%, but in reality this is not the case. Look at my example. Player A has to pay 2700% oh his IPH for the upgrade. Player b is only paying 1400% of his IPH for the same upgrade. Even though the actual cost is less, the relative cost is way more.

Copenhagen
11-20-2012, 12:33 AM
I stopped at Lvl 5 on the cement factory. To MB's point the cost of the next upgrade isn't the issue, rather the extensive build time, 60 hrs. At 1M IPH, it would take 60 upgrades at $100M each to justify the the time saved collecting vs build cost. Doesn't pencil in my book.

AZ makes the best argument for upgrading to 10, if rolling over vault is a big issue then I can see value.

Giedrybe
11-20-2012, 01:37 AM
It is all about the balance. If you care only about optimization/efficiency and don't take into consideration additional factors like less time over vault etc, it is all about balance.

+10k IPH is not the same when your starting level is 50k IPH or 1000k IPH. It takes different amount of time to perfom it, not to mention totally different amount of cash to do it.
+1% from cement factory is not the same when your starting level is 1st level cement factory or 9th level cement factory. It takes totally different amount of time to perfom it, not to mention a bit different amount of cash to do it.

So I completely disagree with those who are saying it saves 10%, so the faster you get to level10, the more you will save. Here you are forgetting about ungained cash, and here Manbeast is very correct. Saving 1% can cost you 2% or x% of ungained cash via IPH building.
So here the balance comes in. At some point one level upgrade in cement factory becomes more valuable than going for the certain upgrade in IPH field. Some are using Khimsoo toolkit to determine best upgrade in economy, I am using spreadsheet (fine tuned according to my logic and needs, provided by Miner (thank you), based on WP thread (thank you WP and everybody, who contributed) - so just compare what you are getting in terms of increasing income vs saving cost.

I can see many cases when some players treat figures in too straight way. Good example like the cost of upgrade. It costs you more than the "price". Real cost is = price * (1 - cement factory level) + current building IPH * upgrade hours.

If to be even more precise, then it is
= price * (1 - cement factory level) + current building IPH * upgrade hours * collect rate
because nobody collects supply deppots 100% or EPP 100% (24x a day). So you cannot loose what you actually don't own.

And if Khimsoo will be reading this post, collect rate is what is/was missing in the toolkit, when I last time checked it. Every player has the different style and possibilities to collect money periodically and this changes A LOT in deciding which is best upgrade for YOU.

Tanner
11-20-2012, 08:54 AM
Hey guys, I'm w/ AZ on this one specifically b/c of what he said. Back in June I was too weak to hold a dime out of vault. I spent the time that the upgrade too to buy mine launchers while waiting on the upgrade. I did the same w/ the composites. After all of the time spent on those two I now have enough defense to hold any amount I like out of vault as I upgrade nanos and Oil Rigs.

You all make good points and I hope that people take the time to read through this b/c very valid arguments are laid out very clearly here for both sides of the issue. It really depends on your situation.

Shinazueli
11-20-2012, 09:15 AM
Technically yes it is saving you 10%, but in reality this is not the case. Look at my example. Player A has to pay 2700% oh his IPH for the upgrade. Player b is only paying 1400% of his IPH for the same upgrade. Even though the actual cost is less, the relative cost is way more.

In reality, it IS saving you 10%. You just need to look at the cumulative cost of upgrades. In the long long long run , it will pay for itself, in cash, and in time when you consider less collections needed to meet costs. It just takes more than one or ten or even 100 upgrades to do so. When you look at the 1000 upgraded in the game though, the sooner you get CF to ten, the sooner it starts saving you 10%.

XxGNUTxX
11-20-2012, 10:18 AM
If your unit buildings are fully upgraded(Dry Docks, Advanced Airbase) you could upgrade the cement factory while stockpiling high cash units to fortify your army. If those buildings are not upgraded, I would go in that direction first.

Thats the thing when you do upgrade all the units buildings which I agree its a smart choice to make but why will i need to upgrade the cement factory more than once if all my stuff are maxed out and they are no more units building to buy so how will i be saving in the long run

manbeast
11-20-2012, 10:18 AM
shin- respectfully disagree. i don't believe you are factoring in all increase in IPH you are losing out on while upgrading the cement factory.

if i'm making 200k (no cement) an hour and you are making 100k an hour (lvl 10 cement) and we both do the same upgrade, mine mine is RELATIVELY cheaper.

i will also spend much less time over vault than you. yes i have to save a little more money, but my increased IPH more than compensates for that

Corsair
11-20-2012, 11:49 AM
It really is an interesting accounting question. Manbeast, what you are not accounting for is the fact that your IPH is not a literal per hour value, but rather based on an average, i.e. one hour you may collect $100,000, the next hour you may collect $2 million. Generally you only get the big payouts at more spread out times during the day (12 / 24 / 48 hour buildings). So on the higher end, you may be able to start your next upgrade sooner because the cost is lower. This also allows you to build IPH quicker than not having it upgraded.

Another thing to remember is your income isn't just for upgrading buildings, but buying units, upgrading boosts, buying land, etc. So it's not like the upgrade time is wasted, you have to consider the relative differences between all these factors.

In the end it's just personal preference. Personally, I got mine to 5 and hadn't touched it in several months. I recently bumped it up to 8 when I was in a unit buying phase. It'll probably sit there until I get to the 9 figure upgrades, at which point it'll take several days to get enough $ to upgrade so I won't mind the long wait.

And last point...it really does suck that it is the only 10% boost, it should be 20%!

Arizona
11-20-2012, 12:07 PM
I upgraded mine to 5 or 6 and it stayed like that for months. Only when I started doing the more expensive upgrades did I consider upping it. Now it's at 10, and another benefit is I don't have to think about it anymore.
One other point. If you choose to upgrade a money building over the Cement Factory, remember that money building is out of service for the time it takes to complete the upgrade. When it's a big $ upgrade, you might be looking at over a million and upwards a day of lost revenue.
In the end, it's what you're most comfortable doing. I saw the savings only when the upgrade costs were getting high.

andypandy2
11-20-2012, 12:19 PM
In the event that 'cement' and 'concrete' are similar (in regard to factions), I have recently upgraded my cement factory. I figure it couldn't hurt.

Bolognium
11-20-2012, 12:20 PM
I upped mine from 7 to 10 while spending 2 weeks in Mexico, limited internet connection. Rewarding but definitely fustrating with the wait time for the entire process. As a free player (tap joy gold also), this is already paying off since my IPH is 400k and upgrading rigs/geothermal/nuclear plants are in the 10mm range. I think for all those who have a lvl 10 cement, it's a badge of honor and shows your commitment to the cause.

Dreno33
11-20-2012, 12:44 PM
I agree with manbeast on this one. The calculations just don't add up!

if you already had your mind made up or were just waiting for one person to confirm your conclusions, then why the h3ll create this thread?

Sugarymama
11-20-2012, 12:48 PM
I love the cement factory. I can't imagine how much more $ and time my upgrades would cost now if I didn't have it at level 10. Yes, it was expensive and time consuming, but right now upgrading my oil rig from 3 to 4 cost me $3MM less than had I not had the factory. My upgrade costs at my level (and the level of my buildings) are in the millions. If I can save a few million here and there, it's worth it to me.

Shinazueli
11-20-2012, 01:26 PM
shin- respectfully disagree. i don't believe you are factoring in all increase in IPH you are losing out on while upgrading the cement factory.

if i'm making 200k (no cement) an hour and you are making 100k an hour (lvl 10 cement) and we both do the same upgrade, mine mine is RELATIVELY cheaper.

i will also spend much less time over vault than you. yes i have to save a little more money, but my increased IPH more than compensates for that

I see your point. It's short term, though. For instance, if you consider EVERY upgrade you will EVER do and then reduce the cost (and consequently the time) to upgrade them all, you win with CF upgraded.

Specifically, look at the Level 1 nano, both of them. It normally costs 20 million. CF reduces that by 2 million, apiece. That's four million saved. If you have an easily achievable 400k IPH, that's 4 million cash AND ten hours of OVERVAULT time. Factoring in the upgrades that literally costs hundreds of millions, you are shooting yourself in the face by not upgrading the CF. It's simple math. The only person who does not need a CF is the one who has all or almost all of the upgrades (all) complete. And there's like five of them around.

Edit: factoring in your example where you gain a theoretical 100k IPH as the opportunity cost, you'd then have a 500k IPH, and it would then take you 20 million, still taking 20 hours overvault (apiece) but costing you more money. And that 100k makes a smaller difference the higher your income goes, whereas the CF stays constant, relative to overvault exposure.

Second edit: the above calculations are with perfect collections; in reality, most bads are still stuck on 24/48 hour collections, which means a 10% reduction in time usually results in a full DAY or more saved if you have to wait for your silly oil rig. In the meantime, my beautiful electric power plants will be reaping me rewards every hour.

Short answer, for those who can do math; and actually do for a living; the CF wins.

Defender11
11-20-2012, 01:31 PM
For me, it is much simpler - I wish I had upgraded the cement factory as soon as I could afford it.

The difference in anxiety level of collecting 36 million as opposed to waiting to save 40 million is far greater. If you have great stats, it is less anxious, but you still never know who is going to hit you and when! And there is always someone who is stronger.

Thief
11-20-2012, 01:39 PM
In the event that 'cement' and 'concrete' are similar (in regard to factions), I have recently upgraded my cement factory. I figure it couldn't hurt.

Hahaha Thats the Reason i upgraded it to lvl 10 6 months ago! It can finally pay for itself hahaha. Hopefully it doesn't mean i have to be a defensive leader though...or i'll be screwed.

In the End the Argument of Upgrading now or Upgrading Later is the same one as those that argue to only buy AC and SB in my opinion. In the LONG run yes it will pay off. However like i mentioned i've had mine for 6 months and with an IPH of 1.1 Million im finally starting to see the potential for positive impacts to my economy....but i would probably have 1.2 Million IPH right now if i hadn't upgraded it. Then again at the time i needed Troops so that is one of the reasons i took the opportunity to upgrade it. It wasn't the best decision i've made in this game and when comparing a lvl 5 vs. lvl 10 and the upgrade differences if you don't need troops then i would simply keep moving forward until you reach 1 Million IPH (as a general rule)

Tctiger
11-20-2012, 01:40 PM
People are splitting hairs here , I say if your camping or low level you can fit it in easy in one go or a bit at a time , if you are not camping and level 130 is not far off leave it and do other upgrades , i have draft destroyer and level 10 cement so I get a cool 40% off, that's sounds good to me .