View Full Version : Ok serious thread Economy not ideology .
Dravak
10-13-2012, 11:30 AM
So true Communisme doesn't work , proven by fall of Soviet Union , people got lazy don't work harder cause no reward in working harder , other then a piece of tin medal for being more productive .
So true Capitalisme ... is still under debate , since in the end Couple of Cooperations rule the world .
But there was never ever True Capitalisme , since it means no government involvement , supply and demand .
No rules , we all understand that ..
So what are we seeing in China India Asia a hybrid model .
But why is US pushing everybody to a economical system that is doomed ?
Instead of adapting to a hybrid model themself !
Has Capitalisme gone too far in the US and majority of western world , that it can't be turned around ?
Well enough economist on this forum , anybody want to share insights ?
TruthHurts
10-13-2012, 08:24 PM
~crickets~
emcee
10-13-2012, 08:34 PM
US needs to build more laundromats and then night clubs :)
I don't think you understand capitalism. Or communism, for that matter. Communism is a political implementation of the economic theory of socialism (as is Fascism).
Capitalism isn't exactly coupled to politics. You could argue libertarianism is pretty close, I guess. Realize that capitalism (an economic theory) relies on laws to allow it to work. What we see in economies like the US which claim "capitalism" is actually a fair amount of socialism. Capitalism is generally thought of as free for all because it is far less restricted than socialist economies, which, by definition are run or directed by the State's interests rather than consumers'. A truer implementation of capitalism more heavily relies on public opinion, courts and a free press to keep people from cheating (rather than outlawing or over-regulating everything, which incidentally favors large corporations).
The US economy is not doomed because it has gone too capitalist, but rather its become too socialist.
I don't think you understand capitalism. Or communism, for that matter. Communism is a political implementation of the economic theory of socialism (as is Fascism).
Capitalism isn't exactly coupled to politics. You could argue libertarianism is pretty close, I guess. Realize that capitalism (an economic theory) relies on laws to allow it to work. What we see in economies like the US which claim "capitalism" is actually a fair amount of socialism. Capitalism is generally thought of as free for all because it is far less restricted than socialist economies, which, by definition are run or directed by the State's interests rather than consumers'. A truer implementation of capitalism more heavily relies on public opinion, courts and a free press to keep people from cheating (rather than outlawing or over-regulating everything, which incidentally favors large corporations).
The US economy is not doomed because it has gone too capitalist, but rather its become too socialist.
+ 10,000
Couldn't have said it better myself! Nicely done.
Dravak
10-13-2012, 09:28 PM
I don't think you understand capitalism. Or communism, for that matter. Communism is a political implementation of the economic theory of socialism (as is Fascism).
Capitalism isn't exactly coupled to politics. You could argue libertarianism is pretty close, I guess. Realize that capitalism (an economic theory) relies on laws to allow it to work. What we see in economies like the US which claim "capitalism" is actually a fair amount of socialism. Capitalism is generally thought of as free for all because it is far less restricted than socialist economies, which, by definition are run or directed by the State's interests rather than consumers'. A truer implementation of capitalism more heavily relies on public opinion, courts and a free press to keep people from cheating (rather than outlawing or over-regulating everything, which incidentally favors large corporations).
The US economy is not doomed because it has gone too capitalist, but rather its become too socialist.
Like said at start mxz am not talking about Ideology , look US economy is not doomed , since 1/3 of the economy will always revolve around the military , tax towards military comes back into free or private sectors , aside from solving unemployement , something the historian really tought about after ww2 , how .britain and germany (during the nazi regime) reigned ...
So it is the 2/3 left of the US economical system .
Now you think socialist system , infact it is in reverse , as long as things go well goverment should stay out of it , but if things go badly we need Bail out .
In a true capitalistic economical system , there shouldn't be a bail out , neither should there be government interference . if you can't make it adios somebody else will benefit from your mistake .
So remember majority of Europe is not a war economy ...
Infact most of our system is social economy , most European country , still have government hospitals , insurance , for the basic need , well in American word the Obama Care package .
Infact it is a very solid proven system, especially when I compare it to Netherlands who went privaterising like mad to follow the American system .
And while for the top everything is all fine and dandy , double profit offcourse ;) by having government funding + the bonus of private sector .
The consumers and average citizens are dissatisfied , since majority past 30 remember how it was in the past , public hospitals , public transportation service ,
Now sure there are benefits to certain services going private , telecommunication , the postal service .
The airlines , but certain things should have stayed state owned .
Maybe this makes it more clear what I am saying .
I understand the argument for state ownership of certain things but it breaks down really quickly when you look at them in depth. The State's main interest is staying in power - whereas a private business has a priority to stay in business and grow. There's a few ways to do that, but the easiest way is to provide a product/service that people want. Since the State isn't incentivized to grow their product they have no incentive to keep their customers happy, lower costs or innovate. Again, their main interest is to retain and grow their own power and influence by buying votes - which is mainly done via wealth transfer from one group to another favored group (e.g. the wealthy, the poor, JP Morgan Chase, Deutsche Bank, Solyndra) and regulations (which end up with similar results).
There's no question in my mind that a privately run health care industry was the greatest thing the Americans provided to the world outside the internet. Obama Care will not only hurt the US but the rest of the world, as well. If I lived in a 3rd world country I'd be extra-pissed at how selfish the small percentage of Americans that supported this, and other socialist programs, were/are.
Mikecore
10-14-2012, 03:40 AM
The end of capitalism! Episode 9000123456789123... At the end, capitalism survives! For once again!...
P.s. socialism is good until you run out of other people's money! Socialism is synonym to destruction! true story!
Survival of the fittest.
It's how nature works. It's how life works. It should be how business works.
Just need a structure, some rules of engagement, and then let the best man win.
It's what I hate about Political Correctness, particularly in schools where 'winning' is now frowned upon in preference to everyone 'taking part' - utter utter bullsh!t, that can only subdue the stong and validate the weak, with an end result being the creation of a generation of lilly-livered wimps who expect everything to be 'fair', and handed to them on a plate.
Political Correctness? Fairness? Equal opportunities for all? *spit*
Life ain't fair. Man up, be all you can be, or GTFO. Winners win. Losers whine. Simple as that.
Dhusagar
10-14-2012, 04:14 AM
Survival of the fittest.
It's how nature works. It's how life works. It should be how business works.
Just need a structure, some rules of engagement, and then let the best man win.
It's what I hate about Political Correctness, particularly in schools where 'winning' is now frowned upon in preference to everyone 'taking part' - utter utter bullsh!t, that can only subdue the stong and validate the weak, with an end result being the creation of a generation of lilly-livered wimps who expect everything to be 'fair', and handed to them on a plate.
Political Correctness? Fairness? Equal opportunities for all? *spit*
Life ain't fair. Man up, be all you can be, or GTFO. Winners win. Losers whine. Simple as that.
Read any Hegel lately?
Read any Hegel lately?
No, and in honesty I've never heard of him, but just about to Google for info.
Edit: is this the correct Hegel? http://philosophy.eserver.org/hegel-summary.html
Dhusagar
10-14-2012, 05:14 AM
No, and in honesty I've never heard of him, but just about to Google for info.
Edit: is this the correct Hegel? http://philosophy.eserver.org/hegel-summary.html
Yes. The unintentional daddy of Marxism
Solarcaine
10-14-2012, 05:22 AM
Survival of the fittest.
It's how nature works. It's how life works. It should be how business works.
Just need a structure, some rules of engagement, and then let the best man win.
It's what I hate about Political Correctness, particularly in schools where 'winning' is now frowned upon in preference to everyone 'taking part' - utter utter bullsh!t, that can only subdue the stong and validate the weak, with an end result being the creation of a generation of lilly-livered wimps who expect everything to be 'fair', and handed to them on a plate.
Political Correctness? Fairness? Equal opportunities for all? *spit*
Life ain't fair. Man up, be all you can be, or GTFO. Winners win. Losers whine. Simple as that.
Survival of the Fittest
It's very interesting how a "well read person" thinks society should fall back to natures law. With out the rule of law, where would we be? If I came to your house and stole you food and you could do nothing about it, am I a "winner" and you a "loser"? If you call the police are you whining? If you invent something and a corporation comes along and steals it, are they winners and you a loser? If you sue are you a whiner? What if a corporation, in the name of profit, sells you a defective product, should it be "buyer beware" or should you have some recourse?
It's easy to pound you chest and say "man up" untill something effects you, then what?
Laws and regulations ARE what allows society to grow. Think about it!
Dhusagar.... I read that Hegel summary I lnked to from top to bottom, seems interesting, and I like much of it.
My thinking is much more straight forward; we are all fundamentally a biological database, we inherit a basic database structure pre-programmed and provisionally populated by our genetics - perhaps this what we refer to as Animal Instinct?
Thereafter every move we make is a result of a cause and effect type analysis of data we put into the database as a direct result of our experiences as we go through life. This structure can be altered only by our own individual intelligence, the level of which allows to us to create new options not previously defined in our database - perhaps this is what we refer to as Human Consciousness?
Whatever branch of philosophy, psychology or theology is most related to my above blah blah, let me know, I'd like to read it, because the above is only a theory concocted in my own warped mind, when high on weed no doubt.
Sorry, I've gone off at a wibbly wobbly tangent, feel free to ignore me.
Dipstik
10-14-2012, 05:37 AM
Isnt Hegel a hot actress?
Dhusagar
10-14-2012, 05:40 AM
Dhusagar.... I read that Hegel summary I lnked to from top to bottom, seems interesting, and I like much of it.
My thinking is much more straight forward; we are all fundamentally a biological database, we inherit a basic database structure pre-programmed and provisionally populated by our genetics - perhaps this what we refer to as Animal Instinct?
Thereafter every move we make is a result of a cause and effect type analysis of data we put into the database as a direct result of our experiences as we go through life. This structure can be altered only by our own individual intelligence, the level of which allows to us to create new options not previously defined in our database - perhaps this is what we refer to as Human Consciousness?
Whatever branch of philosophy, psychology or theology is most related to my above blah blah, let me know, I'd like to read it, because the above is only a theory concocted in my own warped mind, when high on weed no doubt.
Sorry, I've gone off at a wibbly wobbly tangent, feel free to ignore me.
Read George Kelly 1955 A Theory of Personality. I think you will find it there. Don't get bogged down in the fundamental postulate or the supporting corollaries, just read it through, then go back if you want a better understanding.
Survival of the Fittest
It's very interesting how a "well read person" thinks society should fall back to natures law. With out the rule of law, where would we be? If I came to your house and stole you food and you could do nothing about it, am I a "winner" and you a "loser"? If you call the police are you whining? If you invent something and a corporation comes along and steals it, are they winners and you a loser? If you sue are you a whiner? What if a corporation, in the name of profit, sells you a defective product, should it be "buyer beware" or should you have some recourse?
It's easy to pound you chest and say "man up" untill something effects you, then what?
Laws and regulations ARE what allows society to grow. Think about it!
I did state fairly clearly that it has to work within a structure and some rules of engagement. I wasn't advocating complete anarchy ;)
All wins and losses have to be within the rule of law, just without Political Correctness shackling and holding back the strong purely in order to make the weak feel better about themselves.
Dhusagar
10-14-2012, 05:42 AM
Isnt Hegel a hot actress?
No that's a bagel and it is great with cream cheese ;-)
Read George Kelly 1955 A Theory of Personality. I think you will find it there. Don't get bogged down in the fundamental postulate or the supporting corollaries, just read it through, then go back if you want a better understanding.
Thank you.
Tell me about yourself please, I'm now genuinely intrigued by who you are and what you do.
Again feel free to ignore if you'd rather :)
Off topic's gone off topic, but that's allowed right lol ;)
Dhusagar
10-14-2012, 06:15 AM
Thank you.
Tell me about yourself please, I'm now genuinely intrigued by who you are and what you do.
Again feel free to ignore if you'd rather :)
Off topic's gone off topic, but that's allowed right lol ;)
The reason we have "left" and "right" in politics, is because Marx 'left' the philosophical realm of the Hegelian dialectic and grounded the theory in materialism - hence economic materialism. Hegels followers believed they were 'right' to stay.
This is all stuff clogging my memory banks from 30 years ago.
I'm looking at some of this Personal Constructs stuff. I've never read any philosophy or psychology, but I am an avid 'people-watcher' and find human nature fascinating.
This review of Kelly has me worried though...
"The broad concept is interesting. I found the detail tedious."
...because I've got a notoriously short attention span, and an extremely low threshold to boredom.
I'll give it a go, but I fear I may switch off before I've got anything of value from it.
Philoe Beddoe
10-14-2012, 07:01 AM
I'll give it a go, but I fear I may switch off before I've got anything of value from it.
I have same issues with your novels, I mean posts.
Ignore what you don't like, read what you do. Simple process.
Dravak
10-14-2012, 08:05 AM
Look there are certain things I can say and cannot say .
Since am not here to start a doomsday or conspiracy riots ..
So MXZ has a interesting looks at things and no comment from me . at the first section .
The second section is just experience versus perfect theorie , it is a endless debate .
That has nothing to do with economy , I am just curious why a hybrid system works so well .
Since control is a lot beter in those system , we all complain China artificially keeps the value down.
100% true , but are we not infact envious they are doing it ?
And if they didn't do it , you think those cheap good quality (especially for the price and profit margin) would magically appear back in the west again !
Instead of moving to Africa ? (sadly not safe , healthy and stable envoirement) .
Look we every country have some back water places , where we can easily dump the factories .
Ripoff the population and hope nobody ever objects , or else they have to be shut down .
But India Thailand China or in short term south Asia makes it all possible .
With a safe and stable envoirement .
Now anybody have any ideas of the hybrid model , maybe Burn you should poke the hornet nest a bit in your spare time , don't get caught by chinese magic and gold for your CC account lol ;)
(joking burn , don't put your income job etc at risk :) )
jobadass
10-14-2012, 08:24 AM
I don't think you understand capitalism. Or communism, for that matter. Communism is a political implementation of the economic theory of socialism (as is Fascism).
Capitalism isn't exactly coupled to politics. You could argue libertarianism is pretty close, I guess. Realize that capitalism (an economic theory) relies on laws to allow it to work. What we see in economies like the US which claim "capitalism" is actually a fair amount of socialism. Capitalism is generally thought of as free for all because it is far less restricted than socialist economies, which, by definition are run or directed by the State's interests rather than consumers'. A truer implementation of capitalism more heavily relies on public opinion, courts and a free press to keep people from cheating (rather than outlawing or over-regulating everything, which incidentally favors large corporations).
The US economy is not doomed because it has gone too capitalist, but rather its become too socialist.Bam!!! Spot on.
People refer to current POTUS as a "Socialist", nope, Communist. We (USA) have been Socialists before any of us were alive, and BHO is pushhing us gladly towards Communism. Not a bad word, just a theaory of economic involvement by a Government.
Simply:
Capitalism=no government involvement (markets run themselves)
Socialism=Government controls the major means of production (hello???)
Communism=Goverment controls all means of production (an individual provides all they can, and gov gives what that person NEEDS)
Burn you should poke the hornet nest a bit in your spare time , don't get caught by chinese magic and gold for your CC account lol ;)
(joking burn , don't put your income job etc at risk :) )
My business operates in a niche vertical market, and we've made very good money from sourcing alternative product of comparable quality from the Far East. China is a business minefield, because if you ask a Chinese business if they can deliver to your exact specifications and quality requirements, the answer is always "Yes", irrespective of whether it is true or not. Luck plays a big part in finding the right Chinese supplier.
We've since found that Korea is a good place to source product, as they seem to sit in a middle ground between Japanese quality and Chinese pricing.
We are also starting to do business with companies in India. Yay 'Go Indians' lol
But ultimately, a small business will always get pushed aside when the big brands move in and ask your suppliers to OEM product on their behalf.
And therein lies a lesson I have always found to be true in business; there are fundamentally two ways to make money, be the first and the fastest, or be the biggest. Eventually the biggest invariably wins, so the fast need to keep moving, stay a step ahead, and not get squashed.
Jet Skis vs Ocean Liners is the analogy I use.
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