View Full Version : Nightclub Build/Upgrade Order
OffensivelyNamedGuy
10-02-2012, 03:13 PM
So I've read through the posts on this topic, and the consensus generally seemed to be that the best approach is to build your first nightclub and upgrade to level 2 before building the next. It was even suggested that building and upgrading a nightclub all the way to 10 before building the first would theoretically be the most effective.
In any case, I was sitting here at Level 32 with Level 6 Lofts and MTs and an income of roughly 80k/hour debating my next move. I ran out several scenarios, such as upgrading MTs to 10 (which I could do effectively without wasting any upgrade time), upgrading Lofts further (which would involve waiting periods while building up sufficient bankroll), or hunkering down and saving for the Nightclubs. To my surprise, I found that the most effective thing to do is build and upgrade Nightclubs. The question then became how should I build/upgrade my Nightclubs?
I ran 4 different scenarios:
Staggered build/upgrade
Nightclub 1 to Level 2, Nightclub 2 to Level 2, then stagger remaining upgrades
Nightclub 1 to Level 3, Nightclub 2 to Level 3, then stagger remaining upgrades
Nightclub 1 to Level 10, Nightclub 2 to Level 10
The metric I am looking at when running these scenarios is Total Income Per Day Increase Per Hour (Upgrade + Waiting Hours). I did a scatter plot vs the actual time in Days, as the different upgrade paths used in the various scenarios shift the day on which the former value is calculated. From the "start" point (first NC started, scenarios begin to diverge), each dot represents the next build or upgrade completed (19 dots). I've used my future incomes at each stage to determine how long I must "save up" for the next upgrade. This is crucial; I can't simply pull 66.8m out of thin air!
My results indicated that, for my scenario (which I believe is that of most folks looking into their first nightclub) it is best to stagger them right from the start, assuming you plan to continue upgrading. At this rate (no banking), it would take me 503 days to reach 2 level 10 NCs using staggered upgrading and 508 days using scenario 2. Not a big difference, but it's contrary to other info I've seen on here and would like your guys' thoughts!
See below for chart (link to data table as well)
http://enutrofal.com/CC/Chart.jpg
Data Table (http://enutrofal.com/CC/Table.jpg)
(MS13)TURKISHTIGER
10-02-2012, 04:41 PM
like any1 gives a damn
ShawnBB
10-02-2012, 04:46 PM
Look at the orange line. Scenario 4 is a joke and someone actually believed that, lol
OffensivelyNamedGuy
10-02-2012, 06:38 PM
Well if you had infinite money, scenario 4 is the best. Here's the same analysis with infinite income. Of course they all end at the exact same time with the exact same income, but you would have made more during the process with scenario 4. But why would that matter, you clearly don't need the money, ha!
http://enutrofal.com/CC/Chart2.jpg
ShawnBB
10-02-2012, 06:57 PM
Well if you had infinite money, scenario 4 is the best. Here's the same analysis with infinite income. Of course they all end at the exact same time with the exact same income, but you would have made more during the process with scenario 4. But why would that matter, you clearly don't need the money, ha!
http://enutrofal.com/CC/Chart2.jpg
That's exactly why scenario 4 is a joke, what we collect everyday is limited amount of money.
A guy with infinite amount of money is called cheater...and why he needs to build NC for income?
PawnXIIX
10-02-2012, 07:35 PM
MXZ did this EXACT same study ._.
Scenario 4, which may be the best, is not realistic. Nobody has even gotten a level 10 nightclub yet on a legit account...therefore Nightclub 1 to level 2, then nightclub 2 to level 2 is the best scenario...then ping pong upgrades from there.
http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?39348-Exhausting-guide-to-NC-build-upgrade-order
This is kinda like saying play a lottery number every day and you'll be rich in 60 million days! It's the fastest way on average to make the MOST. Yeah sure, it's going to get you untold wealth but it's not feesable...
-JAY-THE-ROBBER-
10-02-2012, 07:58 PM
The nightclub is the only way to trully advance
And just level 10 will cost you over 4 billion to build.
kitzune
10-02-2012, 08:00 PM
only someone who buys lots of crates could have a level 10 night club or two and that's using gold to complete some or most of the levels early. Of course waiting part of the time before using gold to finish could reduce the amount.
TZora
10-02-2012, 10:58 PM
nice thread, nice information but i'm just too busy upgrading my first anchor imports to level 9 which takes 36 mil dollars and 135 hours to upgrade :rolleyes:
135 hours .. mmmmm
You messed something up or I'm looking at this wrong. NC 1 to level 2 should be done prior to building NC 2. This should be somewhat intuitive as level 2 is a 3x IPH/IPD increase over a level 1. Check the thread in my sig.
PawnXIIX
10-03-2012, 04:50 AM
You messed something up or I'm looking at this wrong. NC 1 to level 2 should be done prior to building NC 2. This should be somewhat intuitive as level 2 is a 3x IPH/IPD increase over a level 1. Check the thread in my sig.
Don't worry I got ya, I already posted it ;)
nopenopenope
10-04-2012, 04:45 PM
This flawed analysis also assumes 100% collections on NCs when we all know 2.4x is the baseline to use.
This flawed analysis also assumes 100% collections on NCs when we all know 2.4x is the baseline to use.While I don't agree with the OP's analysis, it actually makes little difference since a Level 1 NC is just about as likely to get robbed as a 2, 3, ..10. So by expecting 4 clean collections vs. 2 clean and a dirty you're really only shifting the scale (x-axis). Again, OP is still wrong, but not because of the number of collections.
nopenopenope
10-04-2012, 05:09 PM
Agreed, only pointing out glaring omissions. Even if the curve stays the same, why have a graph if the plot points are wrong?
Agreed, only pointing out glaring omissions. Even if the curve stays the same, why have a graph if the plot points are wrong?Some people do get 4 clean collections a day. It's also a lot easier to assume 4 collections than (a pseudo-random number) collections.
OffensivelyNamedGuy
10-04-2012, 05:48 PM
Hey mxz, I've read your thread, it's a good analysis. This is not looking at the same thing. In your analysis, you assume that you can instantly afford the L2 upgrade once you are finished building the first NC. My second chart shows this. Obviously all scenarios converge on the same income, but you would have made a lot more money during the process with upgrading a single NC to 10 first, or to 9, 8, or in your analysis, level 2 first.
This study is indented to examine a more realistic scenario for lower income players like myself where build time is not really a factor as much as saving/waiting time.
When you build the second nightclub, you'll have less income than the single level 2 nightclub, BUT you will have it sooner, allowing you to save up faster. This is the reason it is more desirable, albeit the difference is basically negligible at my income.
nopenopenope, doesn't really change anything. I also assumed no banking in the original data.
http://enutrofal.com/CC/Chart3.jpg
My analysis assumed you could afford the initial build right away (because its the same, in any scenario).
The reason taking the first one to level 2 before building the second should be somewhat intuitive is the level two makes 3 times as much money as a level one. In 2 level 1s you pay $80m to make $385k/collection. With 1 level 2 you pay $106.8m to make $577.5k. This is a 150% net increase in recurring income for only a 133.5% non-recurring cost premium. This is why the NC 2 upgrade is considered the best upgrade in the game.
Without seeing how you ran yours I'm wondering if you didn't take into account build/upgrade times correctly.
The other issue is you're looking at gain/increase per day rather than income per day, which is more realistic as gain doesn't give you the whole story.
kykboxr
10-04-2012, 06:45 PM
My analysis assumed you could afford the initial build right away (because its the same, in any scenario).
The reason taking the first one to level 2 before building the second should be somewhat intuitive is the level two makes 3 times as much money as a level one. In 2 level 1s you pay $80m to make $385k/collection. With 1 level 2 you pay $106.8m to make $577.5k. This is a 150% net increase in recurring income for only a 133.5% non-recurring cost premium. This is why the NC 2 upgrade is considered the best upgrade in the game.
I'm with you on this. ROI on an L2 is better than an L1. Issue though is the OPs IpH. He's at 80K. Regardless, getting a nightclub is a feat within itself.
PawnXIIX
10-04-2012, 06:48 PM
I'm with you on this. ROI on an L2 is better than an L1. Issue though is the OPs IpH. He's at 80K. Regardless, getting a nightclub is a feat within itself.
Exactly, I feel like that's the problem with this study. It makes a generalized claim with a constantly changing variable that is never the same for anyone, IpH. Honestly how many of us are going to let our economies stay stagnant when one NC is upgrading? I'd be building more buildings if I had any left to build. At 80k/hr there's plenty left to be built. That is not taken into account :(
Exactly, I feel like that's the problem with this study. It makes a generalized claim with a constantly changing variable that is never the same for anyone, IpH. Honestly how many of us are going to let our economies stay stagnant when one NC is upgrading? I'd be building more buildings if I had any left to build. At 80k/hr there's plenty left to be built. That is not taken into account :(Heh, I can show you some graphs I made up that basically show how once you get 2 NC2's almost everything not named Gentleman's Club is small potatoes.
This is a graph of the percentages of my daily income.
Assumes 3 clean NC collections / day, 2.5 PT, 2 12hr, 1 24hr, .5 48hr.
http://imageshack.us/a/img844/9412/dailyincome.jpg
Buildings I don't have: Casinos, Palms, Office Buildings, Condos.
As you can see, the NC's are absolute beasts and everything I have that makes less than my 2 hotels is pretty much there for show. Credit agency showing up in 2 spots isn't right...just a glitch. It's still a decoration.
OffensivelyNamedGuy
10-04-2012, 07:24 PM
Ugh, just typed up a post and somehow lost it.. so much for "Auto-Saved". So this is going to be a bit half-assed..
Anyway, basically what I said was that you are assuming that you can afford to build/upgrade immediately after your first upgrade is complete. If this is the case, then of course, upgrade! If you can afford a level 3 upgrade after that's done then upgrade again!
At the aforementioned income, you will be able to build several days before you can upgrade. In the end, the difference is basically negligible, I'm only highlighting that saving/waiting times have a significant impact.
Not trying to say you are wrong, can't even compare, this is a completely different scenario, but it's one I thought that players in my situation might be interested in.
I am only level 33. I have no other good buildings. Of course I will upgrade any building whose ROI is less than the amount of days left to save for my nightclub/upgrade, but Lofts/MTs are certainly not them!
Hope you understand.
OffensivelyNamedGuy
10-04-2012, 07:31 PM
Without seeing how you ran yours I'm wondering if you didn't take into account build/upgrade times correctly.
The other issue is you're looking at gain/increase per day rather than income per day, which is more realistic as gain doesn't give you the whole story.
Build/upgrade times are basically negligible compared to saving/waiting times. Have a look at the data table (link below chart).
Yes, but i am investing every cent back into the nightclubs, not trying to watch it grow. I find this is a good way to compare different scenarios (eg. when I was checking to see if Loft/MT upgrades were viable). Remember this is total gain over total hours (i.e. since time 0).
Build/upgrade times are basically negligible compared to saving/waiting times. Have a look at the data table (link below chart).
Yes, but i am investing every cent back into the nightclubs, not trying to watch it grow. I find this is a good way to compare different scenarios (eg. when I was checking to see if Loft/MT upgrades were viable). Remember this is total gain over total hours (i.e. since time 0).Ok, that's an issue. They're not negligible. And if you'd read my thread you'd have seen I took saving into account for everything after the first build. I fail to recall but I think I used $100k/hr since that's the popular suggestion. When dealing with something like this its pretty silly to simulate save time but not take into account opportunity cost and upgrade/build times.
OffensivelyNamedGuy
10-05-2012, 03:06 PM
I said they are "basically negligibe", not that I didn't take them into consideration. What I meant is that saving/waiting times are always greater than upgrade/build times. Again, have a look at the data table, it's all there. By the time level 10s roll around you would have spent approx 80% of your time saving and 20% upgrading.
I had another read through your thread. This is really apples and oranges. You are not bringing your scenarios to a common point at which you can compare them. Of course 1 level 2 nightclub is better than 2 level 1 nightclubs, the income is higher. For scenario 1, you need to factor in the upgrade of 1 of the nightclubs to level 2, and for scenario 2 you need to factor in building the second nightclub. At this point, incomes are the same, and you can draw a conclusion. This is what I've done.
From your thread:
Remember that we assumed we could do everything right away
This is your way of saying you took saving into account?
Since building another NC and upgrading the first one to 2 are *about* the same cost, there isn't much skew, relative to each other.
As you know, this is highly dependent on income. You say it yourself. Taking factors like this into consideration is the "bread and butter" of my analysis.
Anyhow, it's a shame, I was hoping you would find this thread interesting. I'm not saying my analysis is perfect, but with all the negative responses I've yet to see someone actually find a major flaw. Just blindly referring to your thread, which isn't even comparable.
No offense, I've read many of your posts and respect your knowledge of the game, and you're obviously a bright guy, but I don't see why you think your IRR/NPV analysis over an arbitrary period of time is more relevant or realistic (or correct) than a full-blown simulation.
The negative responses are probably due to your post going against what others have calculated. By the time I did my analysis I was only really focusing on whether to take one NC to level 3 or build the 2nd after the the first NC2. Doing NC2 before the second NC was established knowledge (that my analysis happened to confirm).
You also have a relatively low post count; people tend to believe confirming analysis by more established members than new members trying to buck the trend.
What would be more interesting and probably get better reception (at least from me) is calculating the IPH crossover point at which something like building two NCs make more sense than taking one to NC2. I'd be way more interested in that then just saying $80k IPH you should build two NCs. THAT would be interesting and helpful.
OffensivelyNamedGuy
10-05-2012, 05:05 PM
Yeah, figured as much. This thread was intended for people who might be interested in the analysis more so than the results. As I indicate in the original post, this is for my particular scenario only.
That's a good point. Unfortunately, most of my data is input by hand (separate spreadsheet for calculating new incomes), so it's not currently practical to do over an infinite range, but I'll have a look at it. Kind of curious myself.
We have a few Excel geniuses on here, they could probably help. I know Maverick435752 (or some collection of numbers) from the MW side can blow minds with his xls wizardry.
Edit: Mav's profile. http://www.funzio.com/forum/member.php?30571-Maverick50727
Tell him he was recommended by mxz...might help since we've done some work together in the past.
OffensivelyNamedGuy
10-05-2012, 07:59 PM
Thanks mxz, I upgraded my spreadsheet so I can input any starting income.
I also made a few more changes, so the results are slightly different than the original post. Using fractional wait times, with 0 balance after upgrade is paid for. This skews the results in favour of scenario 2. Using banking, this skews the results in favour of scenario 1. Collections per day also skews the results. More collections in favour of scenario 1, less collections in favour of scenario 2.
At 3 collections per day, crossover point is 57.4K IPH
http://enutrofal.com/CC/Chart4.jpg
At 4 collections per day, crossover point is 70K IPH
http://enutrofal.com/CC/Chart5.jpg
With the additional flexibility, I've noticed that there is not a significant advantage to either scenario in the long run. 308K IPH is the highest income at which you will not save more than 40M during the first build. Scenario 2 has an advantage of only 0.1 days.
http://enutrofal.com/CC/Chart6.jpg
Conclusion: Unless you plan on stopping/delaying your upgrades when the IPH of any particular scenario is higher than the other, it really doesn't matter at all in the long run which upgrade method you use.
PawnXIIX
10-05-2012, 08:09 PM
Heh, I can show you some graphs I made up that basically show how once you get 2 NC2's almost everything not named Gentleman's Club is small potatoes.
My Nightclub level 2 makes almost as much money as my Lofts and movie theaters together right now. 12 hour collection on my lofts and theaters nets me about 680k...Nightclub + the other 6 hour buildings I have is just over 600k :p
I think it's safe to estimate that my economy without the nightclub was $1.8M a day, now i'm making $4.2M a day :D
Loving these things :)
Thanks mxz, I upgraded my spreadsheet so I can input any starting income.
I also made a few more changes, so the results are slightly different than the original post. Using fractional wait times, with 0 balance after upgrade is paid for. This skews the results in favour of scenario 2. Using banking, this skews the results in favour of scenario 1. Collections per day also skews the results. More collections in favour of scenario 1, less collections in favour of scenario 2.
Conclusion: Unless you plan on stopping/delaying your upgrades when the IPH of any particular scenario is higher than the other, it really doesn't matter at all in the long run which upgrade method you use.Ok...now you've got me wondering what's happening behind the scenes. Why are you using IPD Increase per Hour? How are you calculating that? I hope it's something mislabeled and not actually the most recent (or even aggregate) builds' income increase divided by build/upgrade time. Why do you think that's more important than IPD vs. aggregate income (NPV) and ROI? Put your spreadsheet up so I can review this thing.
OffensivelyNamedGuy
10-05-2012, 09:46 PM
It's really just arbitrary, I'm using it because it's not too large of a number and I don't need to take fractional part into consideration. I could also look at any of the following:
Total IPH Increase Per Hour
Total IPH Increase Per Day
Total IPD Increase Per Hour
Total IPD Increase Per Day
What I am interested in is the total increase in my income (since the beginning of the scenario) over the total elapsed time since the beginning of the scenario.
Here's a spreadsheet showing how I'm calculating them. The data on the right hand side is from a different sheet, so I just pasted the raw data. It is simply the realistic income per day for NC at 3 collections/day. Cells/columns in yellow can be adjusted.
I use Open Office Calc. Not sure what you use. Saved it in .xls format, might work..
Open Office .ods (http://enutrofal.com/CC/mxz.ods)
Excel .xls (http://enutrofal.com/CC/mxz.xls)
OffensivelyNamedGuy
10-05-2012, 09:56 PM
Yes, both values are aggregate.
As far as I am concerned, the most effective use of any time (build/upgrade/saving) is to increase my income.
NPV and ROI are working behind the scenes. I don't need to measure them directly, since I am re-investing every cent back into the Nightclubs.
I'm following scenario 4! I Started this goal 9 months ago, see those postings way back. The Level 9 NC save is underway using the Plux Method. Highest banked so far $2.8bn for 2 consecutive upgrades level 6-7 and level 7-8. I haven't got the Striker Mini-Gun for the Percentage off Upgrade costs but I'm nearly there after 9 Months!
ShawnBB
10-06-2012, 04:33 PM
I'm following scenario 4! I Started this goal 9 months ago, see those postings way back. The Level 9 NC save is underway using the Plux Method. Highest banked so far $2.8bn for 2 consecutive upgrades level 6-7 and level 7-8. I haven't got the Striker Mini-Gun for the Percentage off Upgrade costs but I'm nearly there after 9 Months!
Seriously sir, you upgraded NC to lvl9 without getting the second one?
OffensivelyNamedGuy
10-07-2012, 01:35 PM
Haha Plux, you're crazy :)
Do you remember what your IPH was when you first built it?
Well, one thing is for sure, whenever you do get it to level 10, the next one is going to FLY to L10. You'll probably get to level 5 or even 6 without having to save up at all.
kitzune
10-07-2012, 02:38 PM
what iph did anyone who has built a nightclub, have when you started the first nightclub?
I did notice if you have the 40 million for the build and a 464K collected IPH you can have the 66.8 million towards the next upgrade to level two with 16K left towards next.
of course that also depends on whether or not you need to spend money in the mean time on events.
what iph did anyone who has built a nightclub, have when you started the first nightclub?
I did notice if you have the 40 million for the build and a 464K collected IPH you can have the 66.8 million towards the next upgrade to level two with 16K left towards next.
of course that also depends on whether or not you need to spend money in the mean time on events.I think my IPH was $150k or so (collecting maybe $110k plus rob money). I was also able to no-bank for the first build....helped a bunch.
kitzune
10-07-2012, 02:46 PM
I think my IPH was $150k or so (collecting maybe $110k plus rob money). I was also able to no-bank for the first build....helped a bunch.
was that on your camper or higher level account?
was that on your camper or higher level account?Camper isn't clubbed up, yet.
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