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mxz
09-13-2012, 08:16 AM
This morning I woke up to a laggy scratcher that slowly filled in the icons I would get (with some waiting/loading symbols) and then the scratch part was overlaid. I tried to screen grab but early morning finger dexterity and reaction time did not oblige me.

To see if I could change my outcome (3 cash icons, 2 melee and an armor) I closed out and restarted. I tested out the two center spots where cash had been - still there. I closed out, closed down the process and reopened - the two center spots still had cash. I closed out, deleted and reinstalled the app, opened the app - the two center spots still had cash. I continued scratching and found all of the items that had been shown to me a few minutes ago were still chilling there, in the same spots.

My conclusion - the server generates and predetermines your daily scratchers at midnight US Pacific time and you're stuck with them. No enhancing your luck, here.

I still have a few questions about the randomness of them when they're generated, though...my camper account has significantly better "luck" than my main.

murf
09-13-2012, 08:19 AM
This morning I woke up to a laggy scratcher that slowly filled in the icons I would get (with some waiting/loading symbols) and then the scratch part was overlaid. I tried to screen grab but early morning finger dexterity and reaction time did not oblige me.

To see if I could change my outcome (3 cash icons, 2 melee and an armor) I closed out and restarted. I tested out the two center spots where cash had been - still there. I closed out, closed down the process and reopened - the two center spots still had cash. I closed out, deleted and reinstalled the app, opened the app - the two center spots still had cash. I continued scratching and found all of the items that had been shown to me a few minutes ago were still chilling there, in the same spots.

My conclusion - the server generates and predetermines your daily scratchers at midnight US Pacific time and you're stuck with them. No enhancing your luck, here.

I still have a few questions about the randomness of them when they're generated, though...my camper account has significantly better "luck" than my main.

Assuming it's actually random (big assumption), it really shouldn't matter when/where they are generated...not sure what you mean by "enhancing" your luck.

mxz
09-13-2012, 08:19 AM
I should add there's still a chance your app determines it when you log in after midnight Pacific and sends that information to the server - but that's pretty wasteful, coding wise, so I'm discounting the possibility.

Polarbear
09-13-2012, 08:22 AM
I would expect it to be predetermined... just like if you buy a real scratchie.

Or else you would be able to keep scratching 5 icons over and over until you get good matches.

mxz
09-13-2012, 08:22 AM
Assuming it's actually random (big assumption), it really shouldn't matter when/where they are generated...not sure what you mean by "enhancing" your luck.Oh, yeah...that's my point, I guess. You have no control of it. Other portions of the game may have patterns that allow you to predict when you'll have better "luck". Scratchers do not seem to be one of those portions.

BOS
09-13-2012, 08:22 AM
Very interesting... I've never gotten better than 4 of a kind. With that being said, I could never see myself spending gold, with the "luck" I've seen on the 70 (not sure) or so free scratchers.

Now that I've derailed... I would like to see someone buy a scratcher and repeat the process you went thru... to see if the outcome is the same.

balax
09-13-2012, 08:24 AM
was that from the begining this way or something changed?

because the odds of getting any 6x prize are 1 out of 5^6=15625
so theoryticaly it would cost you 15325*20g=312.500g
i won a 6x car with my free scratcher and maybe they give to some players those gifts
to give hope to other players to buy them

Polarbear
09-13-2012, 08:25 AM
Very interesting... I've never gotten better than 4 of a kind. With that being said, I could never see myself spending gold, with the "luck" I've seen on the 70 (not sure) or so free scratchers.

Now that I've derailed... I would like to see someone buy a scratcher and repeat the process you went thru... to see if the outcome is the same.

I can confirm outcomes are the same no matter how you restart the app. Even in both HD and universal, it's the same, so i doubt chance is encoded into app.

BOS
09-13-2012, 08:28 AM
I can confirm outcomes are the same no matter how you restart the app. Even in both HD and universal, it's the same, so i doubt chance is encoded into app.

Even if one bought a scratcher, "scratched" a few boxes, deleted the app, reinstalled, and checked again? I wonder if the scratcher would still be there.

mxz
09-13-2012, 08:30 AM
was that from the begining this way or something changed?From the beginning. Someone, I forget who, used to reinstall before any scratcher opening because they thought they'd get luckier scratchers. Based on this, I'd say that's disproven and unnecessary.

This also makes me wonder if box openings work in a similar way. My theories on them are evolving, though. I could probably have a whole other thread on the possible ways those work.

On the other hand, crates, I believe, are independent from the server and determined in real time by the app (also applies to loot drops).

BOS
09-13-2012, 08:34 AM
This also makes me wonder if box openings work in a similar way. My theories on them are evolving, though. I could probably have a whole other thread on the possible ways those work.

On the other hand, crates, I believe, are independent from the server and determined in real time by the app (also applies to loot drops).

You should start a thread on this. Give us forum members who actually enjoy discussing the game, something "good" to talk about.

Polarbear
09-13-2012, 08:42 AM
From the beginning. Someone, I forget who, used to reinstall before any scratcher opening because they thought they'd get luckier scratchers. Based on this, I'd say that's disproven and unnecessary.

This also makes me wonder if box openings work in a similar way. My theories on them are evolving, though. I could probably have a whole other thread on the possible ways those work.

On the other hand, crates, I believe, are independent from the server and determined in real time by the app (also applies to loot drops).

I got no idea about boxes, but crates are determined by app. You can manipulate what comes from crates, but the server will still take gold each time.

Rhino72
09-13-2012, 08:43 AM
You should start a thread on this. Give us forum members who actually enjoy discussing the game, something "good" to talk about.

Agreed this is an interesting thread and I would love to hear more about crates and theory behind opening. Nice job MXZ.

balax
09-13-2012, 08:47 AM
This also makes me wonder if box openings work in a similar way. My theories on them are evolving, though. I could probably have a whole other thread on the possible ways those work.

that would be really interesting and i also have a therory about events and using -buying gold

mxz
09-13-2012, 08:52 AM
I'll write out some box opening theories tonight or tomorrow and post them. Too much activity at work today. :)

TruthHurts
09-13-2012, 08:55 AM
I had the exact same scratcher this morning. 3 cash, 2 melee, and 1 armor

Auxilium
09-13-2012, 09:02 AM
I would expect it to be predetermined... just like if you buy a real scratchie.

Or else you would be able to keep scratching 5 icons over and over until you get good matches.

Did that and tried every possible option a couple of months ago. Noticed the same. A good thing offcourse.

AFed
09-13-2012, 09:12 AM
was that from the begining this way or something changed?

because the odds of getting any 6x prize are 1 out of 5^6=15625
so theoryticaly it would cost you 15325*20g=312.500g
i won a 6x car with my free scratcher and maybe they give to some players those gifts
to give hope to other players to buy them

It's 1/6^5...but yeah point is still the same

DenZ1
09-13-2012, 09:17 AM
I'll write out some box opening theories tonight or tomorrow and post them. Too much activity at work today. :)

Please do. Mine won't work in the last two events :)
My sxratche luck changed yesterday by me getting 5x armor and receiving Mechanized Guard.
Back to 250 rp today :) still happy about getting the armor though....

balax
09-13-2012, 09:18 AM
It's 1/6^5...but yeah point is still the same

you are right

Polarbear
09-13-2012, 09:32 AM
Here's just some interesting stuff:

- You can buy gold items from store offline, but it will not register.
- You cannot buy gold crates and event related expenses offline. (Hmm contradicts my previous post..)
- No matter how you scratch you scratcher, it's the same!
- PVE loot enters your inventory even if you don't manually pick up.
- Drop rates DO change for some reason during event period.
- Event boxes are considered 'loot', meaning app determined and probably just used as a counter for event.
- If I'm bored I'll show you all 1000 event boxes tomorrow =D (Give Sam a scare!)

_dan_
09-13-2012, 10:00 AM
This morning I woke up to a laggy scratcher that slowly filled in the icons I would get (with some waiting/loading symbols) and then the scratch part was overlaid. I tried to screen grab but early morning finger dexterity and reaction time did not oblige me.

To see if I could change my outcome (3 cash icons, 2 melee and an armor) I closed out and restarted. I tested out the two center spots where cash had been - still there. I closed out, closed down the process and reopened - the two center spots still had cash. I closed out, deleted and reinstalled the app, opened the app - the two center spots still had cash. I continued scratching and found all of the items that had been shown to me a few minutes ago were still chilling there, in the same spots.

My conclusion - the server generates and predetermines your daily scratchers at midnight US Pacific time and you're stuck with them. No enhancing your luck, here.

I still have a few questions about the randomness of them when they're generated, though...my camper account has significantly better "luck" than my main.

uhhh.... I thought you should know it much sooner when you post about app error when new install. (do it, you will see it even load the prize at the same time with scratcher icons)

It surely determined by server because player can cheat by scratch it a little just enough to see what behind, what if they never open it (by tap on scratch all or scratch enough to trigger scratch all) & shut down the app, they can cheat the system easily.

sexkitteh
09-13-2012, 10:06 AM
perhaps as soon as you scratch a bit it sends that scratcher info to the server and locks it down...

I say this because clearly there is a way to hack the scratchers, seeing all the cheaters out there...

Maybe try wasting a scratcher... scratch a bit at 11:00 pm and then scratch tomorrows scratcher to see what happens...

Polarbear
09-13-2012, 10:13 AM
perhaps as soon as you scratch a bit it sends that scratcher info to the server and locks it down...

I say this because clearly there is a way to hack the scratchers, seeing all the cheaters out there...

Maybe try wasting a scratcher... scratch a bit at 11:00 pm and then scratch tomorrows scratcher to see what happens...

It's predetermined the moment you receive.... I have bought a vault of scratchers and tried everything =D

Cheaters aren't 'hacking scratchers', wouldnt it be much easier to find item code and change that value?

mxz
09-13-2012, 10:56 AM
It's predetermined the moment you receive.... I have bought a vault of scratchers and tried everything =D

Cheaters aren't 'hacking scratchers', wouldnt it be much easier to find item code and change that value?This is correct. People hack the item, not the scratcher itself.

The point about the client sending the info to the server does have a tiny amount of possible behind it...but designing the algorithm that way isn't likely for a programmer.

G Wiz
09-13-2012, 11:04 AM
well I received nothing but cars in my last 5 scratchers, two of which we're purchased. In the past I also got 6 cash items.

I still like to uninstall my game and then re-install it because a) thats when I got the 100 mil prize (of course I'm associating here), and b) It might influence the predetermined scratcher I receive.

TonySpaghetti
09-13-2012, 11:25 AM
Which queer edited my signature without my permission ?

I find your signature offensive. What was the last one? Was it the thing about women's periods?

sez
09-13-2012, 12:12 PM
The hack takes the scratcher items and makes them available as loot drops from maps. You can't hack the scratchers.

Ramshutu
09-13-2012, 01:06 PM
Predetermined != singleton.

You get assigned a scratched with random values, the word predetermined makes it sound more nefarious than it is and I don't think us technically accurate.

mxz
09-13-2012, 01:24 PM
Predetermined != singleton.

You get assigned a scratched with random values, the word predetermined makes it sound more nefarious than it is and I don't think us technically accurate.Sure, but the icons(values) all showed up in the same spots. Of course there's a chance they do that randomly, but highly unlikely.

Based on the evidence I've seen I wouldn't rule out the nefarious part of the equation. From a business standpoint they are more likely to addict newer players with scratchers by giving them better rewards (hey, crack dealers do this pretty well, too, and it works!). They're also more likely to get gold spenders to spend more gold if they sprinkle in a marginally higher 'luck' rate than if they truly gave everyone the same odds. Of course we can't confirm it without a large scale multi-month study, but I think you're discounting it a little too quickly without any evidence or reasoning to the contrary.

Rhino72
09-13-2012, 01:31 PM
I find your signature offensive. What was the last one? Was it the thing about women's periods?

Hello pot this is kettle...

JimmyShines
09-13-2012, 01:51 PM
Sure, but the icons(values) all showed up in the same spots. Of course there's a chance they do that randomly, but highly unlikely.

Based on the evidence I've seen I wouldn't rule out the nefarious part of the equation. From a business standpoint they are more likely to addict newer players with scratchers by giving them better rewards (hey, crack dealers do this pretty well, too, and it works!). They're also more likely to get gold spenders to spend more gold if they sprinkle in a marginally higher 'luck' rate than if they truly gave everyone the same odds. Of course we can't confirm it without a large scale multi-month study, but I think you're discounting it a little too quickly without any evidence or reasoning to the contrary.

Your scratcher item is determined once you log in for the first time after the daily reset (PST based), at the point of login, and is a set item for the remainder of the day, until the next reset.

And your comment above is very very close....

Hello ALL, it's been a loooooong time... miss me?

I hope you were all kind to my brother Sato. :)

mxz
09-13-2012, 01:56 PM
Your scratcher item is determined once you log in for the first time after the daily reset (PST based), at the point of login, and is a set item for the remainder of the day, until the next reset.

And your comment above is very very close....

Hello ALL, it's been a loooooong time... miss me?

I hope you were all kind to my brother Sato. :)You work for Funzio? :) I have a couple other questions....

JimmyShines
09-13-2012, 01:59 PM
You work for Funzio? :) I have a couple other questions....

Does it look like I work for Funzio? No one works for Funzio, anymore :)

_dan_
09-13-2012, 02:33 PM
I thought you guys are just 1 person. JimmyShines = mxz.

How you going ? never quit or quit & replay.

Liquidsky
09-13-2012, 04:00 PM
Determining the scratcher prize on the server side is the correct way to do it. In fact, there should be NO calculations done on the client (the client being the app you download and install on your phone). This is basic game development. You must assume that people will screw around with the client and its data therefore the server will be the only place where that data is presumed accurate. If EVERYTHING was handled by the server (like nost browser based games), cheating and cheating detection would be a lot easier to detect and police.

TonySpaghetti
09-13-2012, 04:06 PM
Hello pot this is kettle...

Mine is a joke from Austin Powers.

Ramshutu
09-13-2012, 04:16 PM
Sure, but the icons(values) all showed up in the same spots. Of course there's a chance they do that randomly, but highly unlikely.

Based on the evidence I've seen I wouldn't rule out the nefarious part of the equation. From a business standpoint they are more likely to addict newer players with scratchers by giving them better rewards (hey, crack dealers do this pretty well, too, and it works!). They're also more likely to get gold spenders to spend more gold if they sprinkle in a marginally higher 'luck' rate than if they truly gave everyone the same odds. Of course we can't confirm it without a large scale multi-month study, but I think you're discounting it a little too quickly without any evidence or reasoning to the contrary.

You misunderstand. The scratcher assigned to you is generated randomly, but once you have it, you have it. This means when you log in, you get your scratcher (this creates less server load than allocating them to all players at 12am), and if you quit and come back, you are still looking at the same scratcher.

The human brain is wired to see patterns in things, if the pattern is random, they still see patterns (there are lots of experiments showing this). I have seen nothing that falls outside the normal pattern of expected randomness and I have been using scratchers on multiple accounts since their inception.

PawnXIIX
09-13-2012, 04:27 PM
This morning I woke up to a laggy scratcher that slowly filled in the icons I would get (with some waiting/loading symbols) and then the scratch part was overlaid. I tried to screen grab but early morning finger dexterity and reaction time did not oblige me.

To see if I could change my outcome (3 cash icons, 2 melee and an armor) I closed out and restarted. I tested out the two center spots where cash had been - still there. I closed out, closed down the process and reopened - the two center spots still had cash. I closed out, deleted and reinstalled the app, opened the app - the two center spots still had cash. I continued scratching and found all of the items that had been shown to me a few minutes ago were still chilling there, in the same spots.

My conclusion - the server generates and predetermines your daily scratchers at midnight US Pacific time and you're stuck with them. No enhancing your luck, here.

I still have a few questions about the randomness of them when they're generated, though...my camper account has significantly better "luck" than my main.

It's the same way I look at it when people open a box to reveal the prize inside. It's been predetermined since it was packaged at the factory, and no amount of voodoo rituals or prayers you say will change that. You're not going to change your luck and it's the same way with the scratchers D:

Idiosyncrasy
09-14-2012, 12:55 AM
All I know is the best scratcher I ever won ($10,000,000) was on the following morning after I bought gold. Just sayin'.

_dan_
09-14-2012, 01:23 AM
You misunderstand. The scratcher assigned to you is generated randomly, but once you have it, you have it. This means when you log in, you get your scratcher (this creates less server load than allocating them to all players at 12am), and if you quit and come back, you are still looking at the same scratcher.

The human brain is wired to see patterns in things, if the pattern is random, they still see patterns (there are lots of experiments showing this). I have seen nothing that falls outside the normal pattern of expected randomness and I have been using scratchers on multiple accounts since their inception.

Server create scratchers & prize for each account before the new day. CC app (client) only look at that pre-defined result, not generate anything or 'luck'.

Anyone see the 7th loading icon when getting daily scratcher (other 6 loading icons are scratcher icons) ? It's the scratcher prize already loaded with the scratch icons, no matter player scratch or not the prize already loaded there. I think it's already in your inventory, but it's hard to prove because without scratching, you don't know what is it.

Ramshutu
09-14-2012, 03:35 AM
Server create scratchers & prize for each account before the new day. CC app (client) only look at that pre-defined result, not generate anything or 'luck'.

Anyone see the 7th loading icon when getting daily scratcher (other 6 loading icons are scratcher icons) ? It's the scratcher prize already loaded with the scratch icons, no matter player scratch or not the prize already loaded there. I think it's already in your inventory, but it's hard to prove because without scratching, you don't know what is it.

you can check your theory by looking at cash rewards. if t appears your cash is updated prior to scratching, the award is allocated at the time you are given the scratcher. if cash only appears after yo have scratched, then there is another mechanism.

mxz
09-14-2012, 11:22 AM
This isn't exactly useful but in responses from the server to various things - the time when the last scratcher was used is sent to the client by the server. Found this in a packet I was inspecting today looking for info on lockbox opens: "last_free_scratcher_open_time'2012-09-14 02:45:43"

That does point to a client call to generate a scratcher from the server side and send it to the client.

I'll try to capture some packets tomorrow when I first open, maybe I'll get something good.

_dan_
09-14-2012, 11:34 AM
you can check your theory by looking at cash rewards. if t appears your cash is updated prior to scratching, the award is allocated at the time you are given the scratcher. if cash only appears after yo have scratched, then there is another mechanism.

Nah, I'm not talking without evidence. Just do new install and open daily scratcher, you will see what I mean.

mxz
09-15-2012, 08:45 AM
Ok, ran a trace this morning on my ipad.

The first open didn't produce a scratcher so I didn't look at the traffic.
The second time I got the scratcher. The odd thing I need some help with is that there didn't appear to be any mention of new scratchers until I actually scratched it (purposefully waited about 30 seconds after opening to get a clear traffic pattern).

Also...I'm not sure of the overall effect but the number of mafia and number of mafia requests you have may slow down the open of the game since all that information is sent every log in and not stored locally.

Euchred
09-15-2012, 08:51 AM
On my iPad this morning I didn't get a scratcher right away so then I purposefully didn't open it again until later because of this thread and I just got a riot sniper rifle, 5 guns.