Is Modern War Unbalanced?

[Mad]

I got the term "unbalanced" from the Forbes article recently posted on the forum. The article was talking about GREE and some of the problems it was running into in Japan.

The quote which I pulled from the article (see below) in many ways addresses the issues that have been discussed repeatedly on this forum, namely the whales who have built massive gold armies by throwing hundreds and in some cases thousands of dollars at the game. Many free and lite gold spenders are feeling we won't be able to compete at the higher levels because of the massive gold armies. We will be decimated and there is nothing we can do.

Here is the quote:


Many free-to-play massively multiplayer games sell in-game items which make the gameplay less tiresome (such as horses to facilitate fast movement between locations) – the challenge being to promote the sales of premium items without unbalancing play to the point of alienating the mass of players required to make the game viable.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielnyegriffiths/2012/05/08/gree-dena-social-gaming/


The critical issue is this is MW alienating Free to lite gold spending players? I think to some extent it is. As an example, it is becoming increasingly clear the recent auction event is geared to the big gold spenders and many on this forum quickly realized that.

Now to be fair, I think MW is trying to balance things out a bit. For example, by all the statements from those in higher levels, the Boss events are clearly geared to the lower level free and lite gold spenders. Lower level players have a chance to get some decent gold units without spending gold. I know I have.

But I think this issue of unbalance is an issue GREE must address and according to the Forbes article, failure to address this issue will have serious repercussions down the road.

So what can Gree do to balance it out? I.e. give free to lite gold spenders a chance? Here are my suggestions:


Provide more money buildings (bought with cash not gold)
Reduce the upgrade times to the same levels as Kingdom Age
Provide some better cash and valour units. (It doesn't even have to be a huge upgrade. But we need units with better defensive punch and low casualty rates.)
Provide better defensive buildings

[War Priest]

The easier way to say it is, yes!

[Dewsy]

Yes it is unbalanced and I think the solution lies in giving free players more higher defines units. Even if they are quite expensive they will give free players the opportunity to compete with some gold spenders if they have a decent income/play strategically. By only giving free players better defence units it will stay promote gold-buying in order to get the higher attack stats.

[Agent Orange]

I have a feeling that MW as we know it is pretty much screwed now. I've been looking at the direction it is going in and we seem to be in free fall at the moment.

Not sure I agree that this new format is better for the lower level players and free players. For one thing the time frame to play the event is the same but you now need to find one and a half times more items to complete the goal. Then in order to be even close to being competitive in the main event you need to spend a lot of gold to be able to get as many opens as required to be competitive.

As an example if you were only doing cash opens the most you could get over a 6 day period is 24 (hours) x 6 (days = 144 and that is if you actually got a token on each and every open which is highly unlikely. George is already at 44 after just over 12 hours.

[War Priest]

Honestly, this is why I am going all or nothing with this event. Game is pretty much over now.

Besides, there are going to be more hackers than anything now so screw it.

[BigDog146400220]

The boss events may have leveled the playing field a little for lower level free players because they can advance further in the event and obtain more indestructible units. However, there is still a huge imbalance for a free or light I medium gold spender in the middle zones (level 80-130). Those players can't beat but a few bosses without gold and now with auction events....can't compete there either. So all you only are left with are two options. Free play that will never yield enough indestructible units to compete or become a big gold player. In the end... All the camping in the world will not yield enough units or IPH to provide protection in the higher levels. Just my opinion.

[BigDog146400220]

Sorry for some of typos and grammar in last post. Typing on my stupid phone :)

[SGT Barr]

To all, Please don't take this as a slam or insult...

Gold is available to all for purchase. It's the same price for me as it is for you. In my mind gold makes the game more fun and enjoyable. That's why I buy $100 gold vaults and beef up my army. Again, everyone has the same option to "buy or not to buy".

Unbalanced would be I can buy gold and you can not. Or.... I can buy a vault for $100 and that same vault cost you $1,000.

To me it's a level playing field. If you want to get some shinny new gold units. Then pony up the dough and buy some gold like the rest of us.

I do not think the game is "unbalanced". We all can buy gold for the same price as often as we would like. Some CHOOSE not to.

[Chaomeister]

To all, Please don't take this as a slam or insult...

Gold is available to all for purchase. It's the same price for me as it is for you. In my mind gold makes the game more fun and enjoyable. That's why I buy $100 gold vaults and beef up my army. Again, everyone has the same option to "buy or not to buy".

Unbalanced would be I can buy gold and you can not. Or.... I can buy a vault for $100 and that same vault cost you $1,000.

To me it's a level playing field. If you want to get some shinny new gold units. Then pony up the dough and buy some gold like the rest of us.

I do not think the game is "unbalanced". We all can buy gold for the same price as often as we would like. So CHOOSE not to.

It's an iOS mobile video game, and to be competitive requires you to invest as much as you would in a mortgage or car. That's only balanced if you're the CEO of a NASDAQ company.

[BigDog146400220]

To all, Please don't take this as a slam or insult...

Gold is available to all for purchase. It's the same price for me as it is for you. In my mind gold makes the game more fun and enjoyable. That's why I buy $100 gold vaults and beef up my army. Again, everyone has the same option to "buy or not to buy".

Unbalanced would be I can buy gold and you can not. Or.... I can buy a vault for $100 and that same vault cost you $1,000.

To me it's a level playing field. If you want to get some shinny new gold units. Then pony up the dough and buy some gold like the rest of us.

I do not think the game is "unbalanced". We all can buy gold for the same price as often as we would like. So CHOOSE not to.

Sgt Barr -

I completely agree with you that everyone has the same in-game opportunities with respect to buying or not buying. I would hope that you would agree that not everyone's financial portfolio allows for the same level of spending as others. I'm not here to pick fights or to bash anyone for being a big spender. I feel that if people have the means...do whatever makes you happy. Is the game fair...sure it gives everyone the same choices. Will a free player ever really be able to compete with a gold spender... No. But that's llife! I am simply a person that has to live within certain means. No ill will on my part to anyone. :)

[Mad]

To all, Please don't take this as a slam or insult...

Gold is available to all for purchase. It's the same price for me as it is for you. In my mind gold makes the game more fun and enjoyable. That's why I buy $100 gold vaults and beef up my army. Again, everyone has the same option to "buy or not to buy".

Unbalanced would be I can buy gold and you can not. Or.... I can buy a vault for $100 and that same vault cost you $1,000.

To me it's a level playing field. If you want to get some shinny new gold units. Then pony up the dough and buy some gold like the rest of us.

I do not think the game is "unbalanced". We all can buy gold for the same price as often as we would like. So CHOOSE not to.

I think you missed the whole point of the article. Not everyone has the financial ability to spend thousands of dollars on MW as some clearly are. I mean on just one of the Boss events there were people who spent $300 to $400 and that was just what was posted on this forum. Some players simply don't have that kind of extra cash.

I do not begrudge people spending that kind of money good for them. However, what the article was talking about is this: if the premiums that can be purchased in these games start creating a large imbalance between the Free/Low spenders and the high spenders, people start feeling alienated and end up of quitting.

The article was very clear there is a careful balance here. If people start quitting the game because of this imbalance, the game's long term future is in trouble.

How many abandoned bases are there at the 100 level and above?

What I am am suggesting is to give the free/lite gold spenders a bit more of a chance.

1. Provide more money buildings (that can be bought with cash)
2. Cut the upgrade times back to Kingdom Age levels. Why does KA have lower upgrade times?
3. Provide better defensive units. Doesn't have to be much, but better defense would go a long ways.
4. Better defensive buildings.

Please don't consider this a rant against the big gold spenders, because it isn't. All us free to lite gold spenders want is the ability to hang in there once we hit the whale territory.

Provide some hope and people will continue to play.

[Agent Orange]

I guess where I disagree is that just buying your way to the top really doesn't make this much of a strategy game. Yet the potential was originally there at the very beginning for it to be just that. Granted through no fault of the developers (because I bet they didn't think some players would come out of the gate spending thousands of dollars) we wound up with a situation where the game did indeed become imbalanced because some players could gain a tactical advantage because they had deeper pockets than others.

Ok so in the real world that is also the case, the countries with the highest defence budgets are going to be the most well equipped and powerful and I guess that tactic is proven in this game as well.

But the game has become so unbalanced at this point that those in the highest levels are in one of two camps those who are the predators and those who are the prey and from what I can see it really sucks to be in that latter group.

Looking at your stats in your tag line, you are in a pretty decent spot in the game in terms of stats vs allies but if the rivals list gets 'adjusted' again or back to when we could see everyone from 1 ally to 10,000 things might get mighty interesting for you since there is no way you can be competitive even against some long term free players.

I have no problem spending money on this game, I actually spent $$$ on gold because I felt back a few months ago that the game was worth it and I wanted to show my support for the developers since servers, the great people who provide support and all the other costs involved have to be paid by someone!

Maybe the biggest sticking point for me is that this game has some real potential here both in terms of concept and in terms of the great people involved with it in both the development side and the end users and that is most likely why many of us are so vocal about some aspects of the game when we think things are going off the rails.

[SGT Barr]

Yeah, I'm with you... Not trying to start a fight here. My point is that the game is not unbalanced.

[Tctiger]

That's true most people only moan because they care and enjoy playing . If free players could win the odd main prize unit ect , we still won't compete with gold players but it would give some hope at least and that's what the game is lacking , most people I have ever seen in the game up to level 95 are free or light gold players which is the lifeblood. the old box event was only balanced event .

[Ryans67]

The fact is that if gold didn't create an imbalance, you have no reason to purchase gold, and therefore the game does not survive. You need to first accept the fact that an imbalance is necessary for the game to be a free app. Instead of trying to determine how to eliminate the imbalance, you should focus on how to modify the game so that is sufficiently enjoyable by those that play for free and those that spend gold.

1. Focus on what makes free players dislike the current game structure. I would list the fear of being slaughtered by massive gold armies as the number one action within the game that leaves a bitter taste in the mouth of the free player. Two ways to limit that feeling. First, allow you to increase the vault. Award vault increases for completing missions, or doing something that is obtainable by all players. For example, every map completed to level 5 raised your vault a preset amount.

Second would be to allow free players to more efficiently manage casualties. This could be accomplished by tweaking the casualty rates to allow for the more effective use of meatshields when defending from an attack or raid. If your able to staunch the loss of units, and the loss of cash, you would create a more enjoyable experience for the free player.

Neither of these ideas are complex, neither require distribution of gold or indestructible units, but they would greatly increase reliance on strategy. Oh, and go back to the regular crate events so the free players have a slim chance of winning a bonus item.

[Tctiger]

It would help if they linked casualties to iph so you didn't have to worry about being wiped out if you can progress in game you will be happy , second give free players a chance in events to win main prize for enjoyment I won 2 out of about 12 in box event and I was happy with that , some used gold to get every one . job done.

[Ryans67]

It would help if they linked casualties to iph so you didn't have to worry about being wiped out if you can progress in game you will be happy , second give free players a chance in events to win main prize for enjoyment I won 2 out of about 12 in box event and I was happy with that , some used gold to get every one . job done.

Yea I won on my LLP with free. It was a great feeling. Luckily for Gree, the great feeling was quickly erased as I spent 4,000 gold trying to win the same prize on my HLP. lol.

[Wdigeorge]

I have a feeling that MW as we know it is pretty much screwed now. I've been looking at the direction it is going in and we seem to be in free fall at the moment.

Not sure I agree that this new format is better for the lower level players and free players. For one thing the time frame to play the event is the same but you now need to find one and a half times more items to complete the goal. Then in order to be even close to being competitive in the main event you need to spend a lot of gold to be able to get as many opens as required to be competitive.

As an example if you were only doing cash opens the most you could get over a 6 day period is 24 (hours) x 6 (days = 144 and that is if you actually got a token on each and every open which is highly unlikely. George is already at 44 after just over 12 hours.

That would be one of my Pirate mates on the top of the list. I didn't have Internet for almost two days (spotty reception even now) and started the event late. I am not even in the top 250.

[Mad]

For me, I am not looking to be able to beat the gold players. They paid for their advantage. All I am looking for is a way to survive.

I have seen repeated posts of players asking for help, because they are getting so beat up in the higher levels they are losing units faster than they can replace them. Bases being totally destroyed. Hundreds of units lost.

The article wasn't talking about a perfect balance between the paying and non/low paying players, what he did say is this: if the imbalance is too one sided people will quit playing and this will ultimately hurt the future of the game. I don't think the whales want there to be two tribes of whales who hunker down and throw snowballs at each other, because they all have invincible armies and nobody can hurt anyone.

The more players there are the better it is for everyone.

I have asked this numerous times. How many abandoned bases are there above level 100?

[Agent Orange]

Whoops sorry George, saw the name in the list and saw the same name in your tag so thought it was you.

But it is one of our fellow pirates! Arrrrrrrr

[Ryans67]

I have seen 1 base that was empty over 100. I am level 122. They could be lower allies though to be honest. Also, whale territory is level 130+.

[Agent Orange]

For me, I am not looking to be able to beat the gold players. They paid for their advantage. All I am looking for is a way to survive.

I have seen repeated posts of players asking for help, because they are getting so beat up in the higher levels they are losing units faster than they can replace them. Bases being totally destroyed. Hundreds of units lost.

The article wasn't talking about a perfect balance between the paying and non/low paying players, what he did say is this: if the imbalance is too one sided people will quit playing and this will ultimately hurt the future of the game. I don't think the whales want there to be two tribes of whales who hunker down and throw snowballs at each other, because they all have invincible armies and nobody can hurt anyone.

The more players there are the better it is for everyone.

I have asked this numerous times. How many abandoned bases are there above level 100?

Quite a few, and I think after a period of time they drop off the radar as I haven't seen a few bases that were 'full cloak' in a while. But other than the devs nobody on here would probably know the exact number.

I agree that the main problem is survival for many players and that is what turns them off the game.

Personally I would love to see a pay up front version of the game with no gold units or buildings just full on strategy so you need to have your crap together in order to play effectively. I think many of us are actually doing this now with LLP's but there is a point at which you run into the golden wall at which point things get less fun.

[Mad]

I have seen 1 base that was empty over 100. I am level 122. They could be lower allies though to be honest. Also, whale territory is level 130+.

I am not talking empty, but basically abandoned where the player isn't playing anymore. I imagine after a while if there is no activity MW probably deletes the base.

[Poopenshire]

Abandoned accounts are the only ones i try to attack when not camping. Around me there were a fair number available. Since i started camping i have not kept up but came imagine they would delete the account as its ties to a service and they don't do reset which is what it would be id that person same back to the game. yes MW is unbalanced. Very very much so. You work hard to bring it back to balance atleast in the long long long term and if your really good you can balance the game enough to be competitive as a free or low gold player.

[Hellstorm]

I agree with poop, youll meet alot of players that stopped playing. As a free player you cant compete, even as a big gold spender you cant compete against a big number of players out there. Some people have spent ten thousands to make this game centered around a few and the mass is being cut out. Ive seen players with 500k stats, hard to imagine but just think what their weakest unit looks like and how much it cost? I am a free player, and with my 114k def I cant really compete. I am still well off compared to the other 90% of poor, they struggle, plead and curse to be left alone, to simply get a chance to recover and play the game and have fun. But its impossible.

[Warfiend]

I guess where I disagree is that just buying your way to the top really doesn't make this much of a strategy game.

That sums it up for me too. Once you have a golden army, entire aspects of game play become irrelevant.

we wound up with a situation where the game did indeed become imbalanced because some players could gain a tactical advantage because they had deeper pockets than others.

Ok so in the real world that is also the case, the countries with the highest defence budgets are going to be the most well equipped and powerful and I guess that tactic is proven in this game as well.

Yes and no. You are of course right about defense spending leading to military strength, but In the real world, there is no equivalent to gold. Nobody, not even my great republic, has indestructible armies capable of waging war with zero casualties and no ongoing cost consequences.

People have said in threads on this topic that gold spenders are like the US, but that's not accurate. The US would be like the most powerful cash player in the game possible with a gobsmacking iph. gold spenders are like mythical armies of immortals that mortal man has no real chance against.

That's the imbalance I see. I don't care how rich you are in the real world, you can't buy invincibility and immortality like you can in this game. If a competitor releases a game where the game play and graphical elements are as good or better, but where the balance of the game is such that you can buy a good deal of power but not to the point of virtual godhood like in this one, It will bleed a lot of players from this game.

[rareay84]

Of course the game isn't unbalanced. I haven't spent a dime on MW, and life is just peachy. One great thing about MW - gold doesn't cure stupid. I'm lvl 81, currently beating up on a lvl 82 gold spender. His battle list shows not a cash unit anywhere - it's all gold/event items (some of them pretty spendy), with a hundred or two valor items.

Dood doesn't get how allies work apparently. Even if he spends another couple hundred bucks to bump up his At/Df, he doesn't seem to get that I'll just add another 50 allies and continue my march to General off him, 165 bp each hit.

[Hellstorm]

Rare, I think you still have to get to the place we are talking about. Once you reach lvl 130 let me know how you feel then ;))

[Warfiend]

Rare - If we use that measure, then I can't complain. I have never seen red on my news report since I started the game, save for the few times I lost a unit when successfully defending. I have gold spenders among my allies who have offered to ally with me after attacking me repeatedly, trying to beat me. One of them ended up leaving like 300k for me before sending me the request.

But that's not end game, and though they had hundreds of dollars worth of gold units, they aren't all gold armies like are waiting for all of us above 130.

[Thunder Child]

Rare - If we use that measure, then I can't complain. I have never seen red on my news report since I started the game, save for the few times I lost a unit when successfully defending. I have gold spenders among my allies who have offered to ally with me after attacking me repeatedly, trying to beat me. One of them ended up leaving like 300k for me before sending me the request.But that's not end game, and though they had hundreds of dollars worth of gold units, they aren't all gold armies like are waiting for all of us above 130.There are fewer all gold armies after L130 than you might imagine. In fact, I think there might be proportionately more in lower levels that are heading this way, including a number on the Forum. For me, post-130 as been an anticlimax if anything; I have barely been attacked by anyone, there are vastly fewer 'green' players to pick off, lucrative raiding opportunities are few and far between, valor missions are drying up and no longer pay for themselves.... It's dull, frustrating and unrewarding!

[Watash]

There are fewer all gold armies after L130 than you might imagine. In fact, I think there might be proportionately more in lower levels that are heading this way, including a number on the Forum. For me, post-130 as been an anticlimax if anything; I have barely been attacked by anyone, there are vastly fewer 'green' players to pick off, lucrative raiding opportunities are few and far between, valor missions are drying up and no longer pay for themselves.... It's dull, frustrating and unrewarding!

TC adds an interesting perspective to this thread, that of what to do when the game gets boring and frustrating. Since there is no essential way to win this ongoing game it becomes a choice of how and, more importantly, when to end the game. My boredom with the game has been coming in small doses but the frustration is growing mostly due to these new events that seem, well, unbalanced. In any event, I think I will know when the time to quit comes. For now I will chive on and enjoy these insightful threads.

[Hellstorm]

Ive seen gold players with over 175k won fights, and just as many raids. So TC good for you if it didnt involve you ;)

[Thunder Child]

Knowing what I do about the game now, particularly my experience above L130, I can totally see how gold might prolong interest in the game. Given the resources, I'm sure I'd get quite a bit of enjoyment out of the trinkets themselves, in addition to simply enjoying having an army with great and growing stats. I'd also get into the 'team' battles up here. But the point of this thread, surely, is that there should be a balance in the game so that free and gold players are BOTH content with their gaming experience, BOTH feel as if they are getting somewhere, BOTH have a sense achievement, and BOTH feel adequately rewarded by whatever events come their way.... and this is increasingly NOT the case!

[Speed ump]

There is some balance that no one is talking about, I'm surprised since it has been discussed so much in the forums. The no loss" glitch" which appears to be orchestrated as a design feature by funzio, and not a glitch. Not everyone gets it, but many do. There are players with 500 k stats whose real stats are around 100 k gold. That one does not have the glitch, but I do know of one at about 185k who is mostly map mission units, but they are as good as gold because he does not lose any. that is frustrating to see when many have spent tens of thousands to get to that strength, but I'm sure the ones who have it feel fortounate.it's strange to see thunder child say that gold probably makes the game more enjoyable, and so many in the game seem to think I would be ored and ready to pack it in( don't they wish) tc, if You want some action try telling the pirates, or one of the other so allied teams out there a few choice names, get really degrading. Then hang on for some excitement.lol.

[Thunder Child]

@ Speed

Please note that I said IF I had the resources to buy gold! lol.

Since I don't have an appreciable gold force, my amy would be degraded in no time against these alliances....

Perhaps when I get bored of this game, and decide to call it a day, I might choose the suicide option and come knocking on your door - death by Stephenator!

But until then, I'm happy to just to see you guys in passing!

[JMC]

All games with a cash shop tend to ruin themselves over time. I saw this coming when i first started playing and i expected it. Rarely if ever is there a game that utilizes F2P and cash shop that doesn't become "unbalanced". Most people brush it off at first, but after playing for a while, they realize how much it ruins the game for the rest of the players.

This is just some iOS game to play on the side so i don't really care that much. If playing something like an MMO though, i'd much rather play a P2P game than a F2P cash shop game and would not even start the F2P game unless the cash shop features solely untradeable items that are meant to be decorative, or exp boosts and stuff like that, that gives no unbeatable advantage to big spenders.

[MonkeyPuppy2012]

One thing you are all forgetting is that Glee has no social responsibility to make the game fun for free players.
They are running a business, and their salaries and existance is to make sure the revenue and profits of the business keep growing.

[Dr. Dengus]

One thing you are all forgetting is that Glee has no social responsibility to make the game fun for free players.
They are running a business, and their salaries and existance is to make sure the revenue and profits of the business keep growing.

The more initially free players they can bring in though results in more potential gold spenders. I understand your point though. For GREE's sake, hopefully for every big spender they lose, 2 more come along. If not, things could get dicey.

[Papa Tom]

I'm level 109 at the moment and the rivals list is messed up,I could see a player at 200 well I just couldn't resist it I attacked him 5 times and won the first 4 of them,I then went and looked over his stats and army he has like 130 or so diamond heads and not much of a base to talk of,his wall is full of cheating accusations,so let's hope he gets banned before he decides to tear me a new one lol