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View Full Version : Rob Defense formula changing again!!!



white frog
05-23-2012, 06:15 AM
So last night I was cruising through hoods looking for RPG crates to snag. I came across a guy with unchecked Lofts among other things, so I decided to check his stats. His defense was just under 5100. Knowing what I know about the mechanics, I needed to figure out where it was coming from before I determined his effective defense, so I returned to his hood screen to discover that he had no defense buildings. So 100% of his defense came from equipment/stat points.
Now, with my attack score being 3100, I knew that since all of his defense was from equipment that it should be halved, making it 2550, thus I should be able to get through this fairly easily! I then proceeded to hit his Lofts, and guess what!!! I lost! Not only did I lose, but he was using 100% of his defense against my rob.
If his equipment defense was being halved, then there's no way he could have defended against my rob! I've ran the numbers so many times now (mainly because this bugs me), and come to very little conclusion other than equipment defense must not be getting cut in half anymore.
Anyone want to start some more experiments???

Edit: I do know about the controversy with the stats on the rob screen, so we can rule that out. I'm not saying that whatever showed up on this screen is accurate, but the fact remains that if the old formula was still in effect, there's no way I would have lost this robbery!

Hank
05-23-2012, 06:18 AM
How many times have you tried to rob him?

white frog
05-23-2012, 06:19 AM
How many times have you tried to rob him?
Thrice.. and lost!

hinofwars
05-23-2012, 06:22 AM
Thrice.. and lost!

Maybe it is because of the random element in rob/fight?

Hank
05-23-2012, 06:22 AM
like many others, i have been wondering the defense formula for robbing for quite some time. I am convinced that your equipment stats are not halved during robberies. From my experience it seems be be like maybe its .06-to .75 instead of 0.5 like ccmark said.

Hank
05-23-2012, 06:25 AM
I have like 50K defense, people with 25-30K att try to rob me everyday and fail. It seems like they need somewhere between 30-35K to sucessfully rob me, and even at that its one of those sucess/fail/sucess/fail type of things and its hard to tell how many stamina points they are using though

white frog
05-23-2012, 06:28 AM
Maybe it is because of the random element in rob/fight?
Yea.. a random element isn't going to give the guy an additional 600 defense...

Hank
05-23-2012, 06:34 AM
yeah three, is not a big sample size, but it seems about right from what i have observered. it seems like your attack has to be greater than 50% of the persons mafia defense to sucessfully rob. one explaination could be that the 'random element' described by CCMark always favors the person being attacked. for example to win a rob the following must be true:

your attack > 0.5 (equipment defense) + (random element)

white frog
05-23-2012, 06:36 AM
With the tools we have now (equipment calculators and defense building calculators) we have the tools to get to the bottom of this! I need someone who will help me test this, though. I'm currently level 43, so if anyone would be willing, please send me a pm!

Dravak
05-23-2012, 06:38 AM
600 defense difference is only 60 defense skill difference , but other then that White frog , things keep changing every week ...

Sorry , I notice that since 3 weeks , things keep changing , some make sense others , not at all ...
Was thinking random element was highest weapon catogery verus the other person highest same weapon defense .

But am wrong probaly , way too complex for them :p

white frog
05-23-2012, 06:38 AM
your attack > 0.5 (equipment defense) + (random element)
My attack was more than 50% of his defense. His D was 5078, and my attack is 3124, so there's still a factor to figure out here!

Hank
05-23-2012, 06:39 AM
Yea.. a random element isn't going to give the guy an additional 600 defense...

Its hard to make that claim since we don't know exactly what multiplier they are using but its not that hard for me to believe if you assume that the random element is ALWAYS added to the defense of the person being robbed.

If you are assuming that the random element can be applied to the attacker or the defender than you have a valid claim. but i am guessing its the former

white frog
05-23-2012, 06:40 AM
600 defense difference is only 60 defense skill difference
Not quite! Not at this level (level 43). My current stat point contribution for attack is 50, and it only provides an additional 244 points!

Hank
05-23-2012, 06:41 AM
My attack was more than 50% of his defense. His D was 5078, and my attack is 3124, so there's still a factor to figure out here!

assume that the random element is always positive, and always goes towards the defenders score. the only thing being random is the scale of the multiplier

white frog
05-23-2012, 06:43 AM
Its hard to make that claim since we don't know exactly what multiplier they are using but its not that hard for me to believe if you assume that the random element is ALWAYS added to the defense of the person being robbed.

If you are assuming that the random element can be applied to the attacker or the defender than you have a valid claim. but i am guessing its the former
I agree with you totally here that we don't know what the elements are with this random factor. I find it really hard to believe, though, that at this level it would add such a dramatic stat increase. With an average defense of 2000 at level 43, that would be a 30% increase!!!

Hank
05-23-2012, 06:50 AM
do you have defense buildings? if you do it may be hard to figure this out with them in place. I don't have any, if you want to design a way to test this, i'll let someone try to rob me, and we can get some data together. But im not that good with math, so you can crunch the numbers if you want some more data

Max Power
05-23-2012, 07:00 AM
Three things we don't know:

1. The opponents defense skill point level
2. The random element
3. The defense capabilities of the building itself.

It would have been good if you had tried to rob one of his lesser building to see if that made a difference. I know when I am right on the edge of being able to rob someone, the better buildings are tougher to rob.

That being said, I am not sure I trust what CCMark said at this point, given the number of changes this game has had.

white frog
05-23-2012, 07:17 AM
Three things we don't know:

1. The opponents defense skill point level
2. The random element
3. The defense capabilities of the building itself.


1. We can get through this by doing test robs (if someone wants to volunteer to be robbed or rob me) and thus we can eliminate that aspect.
2. We'll, unfortunately, never know this (unless we can infiltrate Funzio... hey, now there's an idea)
3. We actually do know this (since it's a level 1 building)

murf
05-23-2012, 07:26 AM
So last night I was cruising through hoods looking for RPG crates to snag. I came across a guy with unchecked Lofts among other things, so I decided to check his stats. His defense was just under 5100. Knowing what I know about the mechanics, I needed to figure out where it was coming from before I determined his effective defense, so I returned to his hood screen to discover that he had no defense buildings. So 100% of his defense came from equipment/stat points.
Now, with my attack score being 3100, I knew that since all of his defense was from equipment that it should be halved, making it 2550, thus I should be able to get through this fairly easily! I then proceeded to hit his Lofts, and guess what!!! I lost! Not only did I lose, but he was using 100% of his defense against my rob.
If his equipment defense was being halved, then there's no way he could have defended against my rob! I've ran the numbers so many times now (mainly because this bugs me), and come to very little conclusion other than equipment defense must not be getting cut in half anymore.
Anyone want to start some more experiments???

Edit: I do know about the controversy with the stats on the rob screen, so we can rule that out. I'm not saying that whatever showed up on this screen is accurate, but the fact remains that if the old formula was still in effect, there's no way I would have lost this robbery!

What level was the Loft? Could part of this be due to 1) defense skill points, 2) defense points embedded in money buildings?

Edit: Sorry Max beat me to it....

Feng1234
05-23-2012, 07:53 AM
1. We can get through this by doing test robs (if someone wants to volunteer to be robbed or rob me) and thus we can eliminate that aspect.
2. We'll, unfortunately, never know this (unless we can infiltrate Funzio... hey, now there's an idea)
3. We actually do know this (since it's a level 1 building)

Hiya

I'm similar to your level so you might even see me. Happy to help with any tests required. Just PM me on what you need.

upsman_17
05-23-2012, 08:04 AM
I have noticed recently (last 2 weeks) that robberies against me are much less successful. My defense is 16.8 K and I have 91 defense skill points, yet players with attack of 10.5K (without knowing their attack skill points) can not rob me. I havent had anyone try...say...10 robberies straight to see if randomly a couple would be successful. But a guy yesterday did try 4 straight times and lost all 4. Then tried twice a few hours later and lost as well. Seems like he should be able to rob me at least 50% of the time, no?

msjo
05-23-2012, 08:08 AM
I feel like I've had fewer successful robs against me than I should given how little I've invested in defense. I am also level 43, so might be able to serve as a test robber/robbee.

Max Power
05-23-2012, 08:50 AM
3. We actually do know this (since it's a level 1 building)

It's not just the level of the building that is a factor. The actual type of building is as well. You should have tried to rob something else.

ShawnBB
05-23-2012, 09:16 AM
I'm gonna be harsh again here.

Since when equipment defense had a discount of 50%???
Defense building is the one that has a great discount on defending robbery.
I have no idea why people understand it reversely and completely wrong.
If you see a guy has no defense building in his base, it means his defense is pretty much real and tough to crack.

Luciferianism
05-23-2012, 10:14 AM
What the hell are you talking about 'all his defence was from equipment so should be halfed' ... No, just no. That means his defence is real, it's only going to drop massively if he has loads of defence buildings. Also, he may have had defence stat points, also random element can allow anything to happen, also if you rob particular buildings, they have a strong defence factor of their own (e.g. Loft) and since you're a weak ass camper it's not hard to see why that resulted in your crushing defeat.

Max Power
05-23-2012, 10:25 AM
CCMark came on here and gave us the formula long before you two were on here. He stated that your "rob" defense consisted mostly of half your weapons defense plus your defense buildings plus skill points. He also said that your fight defense consisted of all your weapons defense plus a portion of your buildings defense, r something like that. This was before the results screen would pop up after fights and give you that data.

Before you two fly off the handle, search the history. people aren't just making this stuff up.

Luciferianism
05-23-2012, 10:36 AM
We're just talking from experience, it's painfully obvious to us that people with massive defence from equipment are way harder to beat than people with massive defence from defence buildings, we're just disputing that the OP should be surprised that someone with good defence from only equipment should suck, because for all the time we've played that isn't the case. Sorry if we offended your statistics and spreadsheets.

upsman_17
05-23-2012, 10:41 AM
CCMark came on here and gave us the formula long before you two were on here. He stated that your "rob" defense consisted mostly of half your weapons defense plus your defense buildings plus skill points. He also said that your fight defense consisted of all your weapons defense plus a portion of your buildings defense, r something like that. This was before the results screen would pop up after fights and give you that data.

Before you two fly off the handle, search the history. people aren't just making this stuff up.


Do you still believe this to be accurate or do you think they have tweaked the formula?

ShawnBB
05-23-2012, 10:43 AM
CCMark came on here and gave us the formula long before you two were on here. He stated that your "rob" defense consisted mostly of half your weapons defense plus your defense buildings plus skill points. He also said that your fight defense consisted of all your weapons defense plus a portion of your buildings defense, r something like that. This was before the results screen would pop up after fights and give you that data.

Before you two fly off the handle, search the history. people aren't just making this stuff up.

Thanks for the explaining Max, so I just did a test.

Robbed a 8000 def guy with nearly no defense building in his base, the result shows 7853 defense.
Robbed another 7000 guy screens of guard towers, result shows 5600 defense.

How can this be explained?



Also, when my stats were still weak and havent started thug life
I could only find similar strength players to fight and rob, those experience told me that those folks who have screens of guard towers can always be robbed even if I lose my fight to him.

nopenopenope
05-23-2012, 10:48 AM
There's some good info in here.

Fight defense looks like this:

Total item defense + Building defense + (contribution from defense skill calculation) +/- (random element)

Rob defense looks like this:

1/2 total item defense + Building defense + (contribution from defense skill calculation) +/- (random element)

from page 2 of this thread: http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?9738-Quitting-the-game&highlight=defense

Vile Lynn
05-23-2012, 11:05 AM
Sorry, didn't read the whole thread, just op... but...

I have never seen half def stats on the fight screen, so I think you were mistaken in assuming the def stats would show up that way.

Max Power
05-23-2012, 11:15 AM
We're just talking from experience, it's painfully obvious to us that people with massive defence from equipment are way harder to beat than people with massive defence from defence buildings, we're just disputing that the OP should be surprised that someone with good defence from only equipment should suck, because for all the time we've played that isn't the case. Sorry if we offended your statistics and spreadsheets.

You didn't offend my "statistics or spreadsheets", I was just telling you where people got the impression that weapons defense being halved during robs information. As you can see, somebody had more time and posted the link where CCMark said it.

So, any more brilliant insight you want to share?

Yes, the screen that they introduced later illustrates that building defense is nowhere near what people thought it was, and yes, the formula may have been tweaked so people don't know what to believe, but the OP believed half because that what we were told at one time, the only time this was addressed by a Funzio employee. That's what the "hell" he was talking about.

Vile Lynn
05-23-2012, 11:20 AM
Heh, Max... I would not want to get in an argument in a dark alley with you! :cool:

blondealex
05-23-2012, 11:54 AM
Is there a chance that they could have had some Machine Gun or Gatling Turrets (not sure when Gatling becomes avail) hidden between buildings? I did this at one point trying to use all of the space available to me.

Since using your spreadsheet I have found your calculations on robbery defense very true to form. Just last night was a good example. I had a rival rob me (took several tries) last weekend that was just under my robbery def number. I have since added defense to get my def number over his, and last night he tried on more than one occasion to rob the same building/buildings as before and was not successful.

@ people that are trying to dispute the effects of defenses against robbing and fights
These numbers have come from months and months and many trials since this game has started. They might not be 100% dead on, but they are close enough to credit differences to random elements and skill points.

deuces
05-23-2012, 12:51 PM
@ whitefrog, i agree with most of what hank wrote on the first page. IMO equipment has always been factored at higher than 50% but absolutely lower than 100%. At least since i've been playing this game seriously and paying attention. I have ~57k attack, theres absolutely zero chance i'd be able to rob koralenes close to 100k effective defense.

I know you said you tested this before, and were certain the 50% was accurate. Would be very interested in further testing.

white frog
05-23-2012, 02:13 PM
@ whitefrog, i agree with most of what hank wrote on the first page. IMO equipment has always been factored at higher than 50% but absolutely lower than 100%. At least since i've been playing this game seriously and paying attention. I have ~57k attack, theres absolutely zero chance i'd be able to rob koralenes close to 100k effective defense.

I know you said you tested this before, and were certain the 50% was accurate. Would be very interested in further testing.
I am also in agreement with Hank's theory. I have had a few people volunteer to get the testing started, so I will begin these experiments. They won't start for a few days, as I am planning on dropping my mob in a few days after I start my second NC.

@blondealex, Hank, and Max Power
Thanks for the posts that actually had something "worthwhile" to add to this. Some people think that they are so special, and know so much that they have the right to slander the legitimacy of the research that some have taken months to do for the benefit of all, including the ignorant slanderers who hold their noses up at the people who actually do know how to play this game.

@lucifer
Dude, do you really know who you're talking to? Apparently not! Show some respect. If you think you can just pop up on a forum and piss off the veteran's who know what they're talking about, you chose the wrong place! Go somewhere else, or learn your place and try to be helpful!

Gaming Will
05-23-2012, 02:18 PM
White frog,

Not intentionally trying this but figured since I just failed at robbing a laundromat I have something to add.

My attack: 19912
His defense: 20357

I failed to rob on first attempt, then succeeded after that.

Dreno33
05-23-2012, 02:29 PM
@ Lucifer ~ again, here you go acting like you're some genius on the game of CC and prove yet again your ignorance. Quit giving your "weak ass" posts about a subject matter you clearly can't give valid input on. ALSO: MINIMIZE THE RUDENESS

@ White Frog ~ are you 100% certain no machine gun turrets weren't hidden behind any buildings? Who knows if he has like 5-10 lvl 10 turrets back there.

@ Max ~ yeah, maybe they did change the formula.. who knows. I DO know now that White Frog is going to be very busy now trying to figure this whole thing out b/c that's just the kinda guy he is. Very determined and makes sure his all-in-one is perfect and accurate, haha(:

Luciferianism
05-23-2012, 02:44 PM
Minimize the rudeness? I'm Satan. You minimize the goodness.

white frog
05-23-2012, 02:55 PM
Minimize the rudeness? I'm Satan. You minimize the goodness.
I'm gonna pray for you!

Lexxa
05-23-2012, 03:19 PM
...so I returned to his hood screen to discover that he had no defense buildings...

I don't know how helpful this is, but have you considered that you may literally not be seeing some defense buidlings particularly if they're mainly gatlling turrets. I have gatlings stashed in all kinds of out-of-sight nooks and crannies (behind & in between buildings) to save space and just because I don't like the aesthetics of a bunch of visible machine guns. (I finally had to draw myself a map just so I could remember where I put them all!)