MajorOffensive
05-03-2012, 05:10 PM
As many who still frequent this forum recall, Tramp Stamp set the standard for economic analysis from some of the first plist dumps. If you haven't read his work, I recommend it. There is a nice blog which has his original Economy Planning post intact. His basic mantra was to hit the A buildings hard, except perhaps for his skepticism of the Nightclub, for the A buildings The B Buildings, due to their slower growth, were side shows he only built to level 1 so he could sell them without abandoning significant investment. After all, A buildings at level 10 provide 75 times their base, while B buildings provide only 30 times theirs. Small upgrades enable you to save for these fast-growers. For both sets of buildings, the cost of upgrades is 167% of the previous level. $1M becomes $1.67M. The faster upgrading B Buildings like the Dominican mess with this a little, though, IMO. More on this later.
Personally, I consider this a mistake. Maybe it is just that nagging part of me that wants all cash buildings at level 10 for the sake of completion. Or maybe it is that B buildings might actually offer significant earnings. Of course you long-time players realize this and I sound quite silly. But these guides are usually for early- to mid-game players who wish to turn their economies around. Further, I suggest those who dismiss the Nightclub for its 6 hour pay period or its price tag seriously reconsider. I'll get to that.
I don't think Tramp Stamp went quite far enough in determining what is a valuable upgrade. Value for what you can save in a few days isn't enough. Some others claim ROI is king, while others claim ROI/square is the dominant metric. Someone seriously argued space was the most limiting factor. I, however, am not immortal. And I would like to see a kickass economy within my lifetime. Which is doable, if you aren't so cheap you rarely expand your hood. If you plan to play long-term, the money for expansions will come to you, but you can only do so much with your time.
And here is my driving cost: my time. For me, the money buildings equation boils down to this: What gives me the most money per day for my time spent doing these things: saving, building/upgrading, and, perhaps to a much lesser degree, lost Income-Days during upgrade time. Most people never make it past the ROI per upgrade Time, and this approach does have a strong following. But savings time can be so much greater. For instance, by the time I am ready to start saving to build my first Nightclub, it will take me 12 days to save in addition to its six day build time. Why does the savings time matter more than the savings cost? Because BMFBs (Big Mother Fing Buildings) become more critical the less time you save for them, regardless of their cost. The upgrade times are constant, but the decreased savings time provides flat out more money for the time invested in the saving, building, etc.
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First, the low level buildings. The A pattern Buildings are all the buildings to level 8, plus all the Mafia requirement Buildings. I won't list them because I'm lazy and there are at least 8 public spreadsheets that all already do in detail. Long-time players may tell you two things: First, that low level buildings are worthless late game. Two, that low level A buildings should be sold for space for higher level B buildings. I think both of these ideas are mistakes.
Would I trade a Warehouse for a Loft? Absolutely! But do I have to? No. What do I gain by doing so? By the point you should be building lofts, you save at best a fraction of $1M. Why a fraction? Every upgrade increases by more than just the space for one building. I can build several. All my tiny buildings every one else would tell me to sell at almost level 100? They provide me something like 200K+ a day. They can max out at 500K or so a day, if you include the Italian Restaurants. By using all the dirt-cheap space from the start, I can pay for upgrades so I can fit these bigger buildings. And then some.
TL;DR: Is their contribution small? Absolutely. Is it shrinking proportionally every day? You bet. Space efficient? F your mother. Why keep them? They add value over time to relatively cheap space and represent an irrecoverable time investment. The longer I keep them, the more irrecoverable time I have invested.
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Now, for the middle stuff, like Wholesale Warehouse. Short version, space kinda matters here. At some point, it costs millions, and the big 8x8s just don't cut it. They barely keep up, and they are enormous. They just take up too much space for me. Even other buildings at that point aren't so appealing. They aren't worth the time to either expand for or swap out. They just don't earn fast enough, so my new buildings lapsed during this period. I like having my Chinese Restaurants, but by the time it comes to Brownstones... eeeeeehhh. *shrugs* Up to this point, I'm largely with Tramp Stamp. Movie Theatres and Lofts all the way. Well, not literally, but quite a ways. They will make love-children with your investors.
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End-game, for a B Building to outclass an A Building, its base income must be 2.5 times the value of the corresponding A Building for a given period of time, clearly demonstrated by the multiplier ratio A:B, 75:30. Now, obviously they must be considered adjusted for collections per day to be accurate. A Dominican Restaurant (as a player favorite) ultimately ends up earning what a Movie Theatre does at level 10 per collection. But the Movie Theatre earns twice as often. And costs roughly the same.
However, early on the Dominican Restaurant makes more money. Remember how it starts about 2.5 times higher for the same price? Clearly this build is an early B Building win. But over time, the growth of the Movie Theatre makes it more appealing per upgrade, and the Dominican Restaurant less so
Consider also that the cost of B buildings is usually higher for daily income gain as you upgrade. This goes back to them having a slower growth rate. Hence why I generally keep B's at level 3. The costs ramp up faster than the growth. They are fine later on if they are cheap upgrades. Though lower A Buildings normally provide better ROI while you save for big stuff.
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So what's good after the Loft? I like the Beach Nightclub at level 3. Helps me have enough money to open boxes during events every hour. But it is 7x7 and hourly collection. Everyone knows about the ugly Crematorium: fugly ass, 24hr building with decent income. And an ungodly build time for its position in the list. Its income is okay, and its long build/upgrade times give you plenty of time to save moar muneys.
In Tramp Stamp's work, there is a list of buildings Funzio added a while back. These include the Upscale Club, Dominican Restaurant and Wholesale Warehouses, among others. These are definitely still B Buildings, but they have quick build and upgrade times early on. I already said I wouldn't bother with a WW. And I haven't, and not because 18 hour collection cycles are weird. Some of these are worthwhile depending on how you like to collect, but the two chief among them are the Dominican (24 hour collection with small size and good low building level income) and the Upscale Club.
The latter also has a 24 hour collection, and while available at level 70, its income will kick a Loft's landlord in the balls. This is a phenomenal building that I think is a must-have. It has lots of appeal for nearly everyone, even the Space Whores. IIRC, it is only 5x6, collects 24hrs like long-cycle collectors love, it builds and upgrades very quickly, and at Level 3 two make more than a Level 1 Nightclub, for a little more money. This is like the USSR chopping up Germany's industry and shipping it to Siberia post-war: they must have used a cheat code or something.
TL;DR: WHY U NO HAVE UPSCALE!?!?!?!??!?!?!@J:J!@#!?!??
Don't like the Nightclub's 6-hour collection period? Hate 8x8 Buildings? Don't like holding on to $40M all at once? Well try the Pos-T-Vac now for only... Oops, wrong product. But seriously, buy it in pieces. It's great.
You know what's really wonderful? Having a Nightclub-level boost without having to save forty-fing-million at one time. You know what's very nice? That it takes slightly less long to gather all this money for the upgrades because I'm upgrading two buildings piecemeal. You know what level 70 players will take for granted? That two of this building at level 3 can shave days off a Nightclub savings. When I compare the two Upscale Clubs to level 3 against the one Nightclub to Level 2, I spend 9 days to save 8.
Oh wait! You just lost a day!
But when I save to build my second Nightclub, I already have the extra income ready to kick ass while the first is upgrading, and still follow up the first Nightclub with respectable income. I shave more days off. Level three is pushing it a little at that point. Overall, the first Nightclub would be better than going ahead with the Level 3 upgrades on the Upscale Club short term. But it pays off over time.
The interesting thing is that at $10M income a day, if you calculate (daily income gain)/(savings time+upgrade time) the Upscale Club's level 3 upgrade actually comes out ahead of the Level 1 Nightclub by just a little. But over time it probably won't because you can get the Nightclub's obscene growth rate into play faster.
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I have to say, none of the buildings next up look all that appealing until you get to the Condo and Credit Agency. They both provide a nice boost for the first level or maaaaybe two. And you still don't have to save $40M at one time. But I expect that by the time I PvP my way 12 levels up to the Condo, I will already be well on my way to my first Nightclub, if not level 2.
And why do I advocate upgrading to Level 2 before building a second Nightclub? Remember kids: a 27% increase in time investment is worth 200% gain. And this was at about $2.5M a day. If you double that, the time increase is only 15%. But you have probably squandered a bit of time on lower payout buildings.
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But you're still focused on the Nightclub with its nasty 6-hour payout!
I sure am. Why? Because at level 10 it's still better than the level 165 Casino at level 10... even if you only collect twice a day. If it is robbed one of those times... well, it's still cheaper to build and upgrade, so yes, it still is at least as good on the whole. It doesn't take long to overtake the Casino. Plus, it's available as soon as you can get 300 mafia, so you don't have to level up to the Indian-players-with-too-much-disposable-money bracket.
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I'll go ahead and raise my own one objection to this entire post:
Y U NO USE TRAMPY MATH?
I'm lazy, for one. And for another, it all depends on your collection cycles. If you collect throughout the day, like me, all those little buildings upgraded a little make lots of sense. They add up. But for less frequent collectors, your income is generally much smaller until much later on, and it's hard for you to catch up. Because I can do both. The math changes a lot. For every significant upgrade you make, your savings time can change drastically. It is a method of constant re-evaluation, and planning ahead several steps must take this into account.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mega TL;DR: In general, MT, Loft, NC are your big priorities at varying stages of the game. B Buildings are there to help fund them, and are fine when you aren't spending relatively huge sums of money for relatively small gains. As the biggest earner in the game, the Nightclub outpaces its biggest competition such that ultimately, even collected only twice a day, it earns more than the Casino for cheaper upgrades.
Thanks for playing! Oh, and please leave your fish at the door.
EDIT: I am finally adding the guidline formula. Hopefully this helps clear things up a little and gives players a more user-friendly format than a text wall.
The formula should have these components:
S = sum of the incomes of all buildings per day
I = income gain of upgrade in question per day
U = time cost of upgrade
Lost-income *only for level 2+ upgrades; zero for new buildings* = (current building income per day)*U
Savings-time = (cost of upgrade+Lost-income)/(S) *adding the Lost-income here rolls the time-cost during the upgrade forward to before it ever occurs; this is optional, but seems appropriate considering saving starts when your building or upgrading functions are engaged*
Time-cost = (I)/(U+Savings-time)
This formula is the reverse of RoI. Instead of calculating how quickly an upgrade pays itself off, you see how quickly you can afford to build something; it accounts for your entire system's resources, not just the gain of one. Generally, as you go up the list ROI gradually decreases, depending on your actual collection frequency. But the Time-cost changes in interesting ways depending on how frequently you collect certain kinds of buildings and how much your income grows. What ends up happening is a graduation to larger upgrades per unit time invested when it makes sense according to your income.
Personally, I consider this a mistake. Maybe it is just that nagging part of me that wants all cash buildings at level 10 for the sake of completion. Or maybe it is that B buildings might actually offer significant earnings. Of course you long-time players realize this and I sound quite silly. But these guides are usually for early- to mid-game players who wish to turn their economies around. Further, I suggest those who dismiss the Nightclub for its 6 hour pay period or its price tag seriously reconsider. I'll get to that.
I don't think Tramp Stamp went quite far enough in determining what is a valuable upgrade. Value for what you can save in a few days isn't enough. Some others claim ROI is king, while others claim ROI/square is the dominant metric. Someone seriously argued space was the most limiting factor. I, however, am not immortal. And I would like to see a kickass economy within my lifetime. Which is doable, if you aren't so cheap you rarely expand your hood. If you plan to play long-term, the money for expansions will come to you, but you can only do so much with your time.
And here is my driving cost: my time. For me, the money buildings equation boils down to this: What gives me the most money per day for my time spent doing these things: saving, building/upgrading, and, perhaps to a much lesser degree, lost Income-Days during upgrade time. Most people never make it past the ROI per upgrade Time, and this approach does have a strong following. But savings time can be so much greater. For instance, by the time I am ready to start saving to build my first Nightclub, it will take me 12 days to save in addition to its six day build time. Why does the savings time matter more than the savings cost? Because BMFBs (Big Mother Fing Buildings) become more critical the less time you save for them, regardless of their cost. The upgrade times are constant, but the decreased savings time provides flat out more money for the time invested in the saving, building, etc.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First, the low level buildings. The A pattern Buildings are all the buildings to level 8, plus all the Mafia requirement Buildings. I won't list them because I'm lazy and there are at least 8 public spreadsheets that all already do in detail. Long-time players may tell you two things: First, that low level buildings are worthless late game. Two, that low level A buildings should be sold for space for higher level B buildings. I think both of these ideas are mistakes.
Would I trade a Warehouse for a Loft? Absolutely! But do I have to? No. What do I gain by doing so? By the point you should be building lofts, you save at best a fraction of $1M. Why a fraction? Every upgrade increases by more than just the space for one building. I can build several. All my tiny buildings every one else would tell me to sell at almost level 100? They provide me something like 200K+ a day. They can max out at 500K or so a day, if you include the Italian Restaurants. By using all the dirt-cheap space from the start, I can pay for upgrades so I can fit these bigger buildings. And then some.
TL;DR: Is their contribution small? Absolutely. Is it shrinking proportionally every day? You bet. Space efficient? F your mother. Why keep them? They add value over time to relatively cheap space and represent an irrecoverable time investment. The longer I keep them, the more irrecoverable time I have invested.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, for the middle stuff, like Wholesale Warehouse. Short version, space kinda matters here. At some point, it costs millions, and the big 8x8s just don't cut it. They barely keep up, and they are enormous. They just take up too much space for me. Even other buildings at that point aren't so appealing. They aren't worth the time to either expand for or swap out. They just don't earn fast enough, so my new buildings lapsed during this period. I like having my Chinese Restaurants, but by the time it comes to Brownstones... eeeeeehhh. *shrugs* Up to this point, I'm largely with Tramp Stamp. Movie Theatres and Lofts all the way. Well, not literally, but quite a ways. They will make love-children with your investors.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
End-game, for a B Building to outclass an A Building, its base income must be 2.5 times the value of the corresponding A Building for a given period of time, clearly demonstrated by the multiplier ratio A:B, 75:30. Now, obviously they must be considered adjusted for collections per day to be accurate. A Dominican Restaurant (as a player favorite) ultimately ends up earning what a Movie Theatre does at level 10 per collection. But the Movie Theatre earns twice as often. And costs roughly the same.
However, early on the Dominican Restaurant makes more money. Remember how it starts about 2.5 times higher for the same price? Clearly this build is an early B Building win. But over time, the growth of the Movie Theatre makes it more appealing per upgrade, and the Dominican Restaurant less so
Consider also that the cost of B buildings is usually higher for daily income gain as you upgrade. This goes back to them having a slower growth rate. Hence why I generally keep B's at level 3. The costs ramp up faster than the growth. They are fine later on if they are cheap upgrades. Though lower A Buildings normally provide better ROI while you save for big stuff.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what's good after the Loft? I like the Beach Nightclub at level 3. Helps me have enough money to open boxes during events every hour. But it is 7x7 and hourly collection. Everyone knows about the ugly Crematorium: fugly ass, 24hr building with decent income. And an ungodly build time for its position in the list. Its income is okay, and its long build/upgrade times give you plenty of time to save moar muneys.
In Tramp Stamp's work, there is a list of buildings Funzio added a while back. These include the Upscale Club, Dominican Restaurant and Wholesale Warehouses, among others. These are definitely still B Buildings, but they have quick build and upgrade times early on. I already said I wouldn't bother with a WW. And I haven't, and not because 18 hour collection cycles are weird. Some of these are worthwhile depending on how you like to collect, but the two chief among them are the Dominican (24 hour collection with small size and good low building level income) and the Upscale Club.
The latter also has a 24 hour collection, and while available at level 70, its income will kick a Loft's landlord in the balls. This is a phenomenal building that I think is a must-have. It has lots of appeal for nearly everyone, even the Space Whores. IIRC, it is only 5x6, collects 24hrs like long-cycle collectors love, it builds and upgrades very quickly, and at Level 3 two make more than a Level 1 Nightclub, for a little more money. This is like the USSR chopping up Germany's industry and shipping it to Siberia post-war: they must have used a cheat code or something.
TL;DR: WHY U NO HAVE UPSCALE!?!?!?!??!?!?!@J:J!@#!?!??
Don't like the Nightclub's 6-hour collection period? Hate 8x8 Buildings? Don't like holding on to $40M all at once? Well try the Pos-T-Vac now for only... Oops, wrong product. But seriously, buy it in pieces. It's great.
You know what's really wonderful? Having a Nightclub-level boost without having to save forty-fing-million at one time. You know what's very nice? That it takes slightly less long to gather all this money for the upgrades because I'm upgrading two buildings piecemeal. You know what level 70 players will take for granted? That two of this building at level 3 can shave days off a Nightclub savings. When I compare the two Upscale Clubs to level 3 against the one Nightclub to Level 2, I spend 9 days to save 8.
Oh wait! You just lost a day!
But when I save to build my second Nightclub, I already have the extra income ready to kick ass while the first is upgrading, and still follow up the first Nightclub with respectable income. I shave more days off. Level three is pushing it a little at that point. Overall, the first Nightclub would be better than going ahead with the Level 3 upgrades on the Upscale Club short term. But it pays off over time.
The interesting thing is that at $10M income a day, if you calculate (daily income gain)/(savings time+upgrade time) the Upscale Club's level 3 upgrade actually comes out ahead of the Level 1 Nightclub by just a little. But over time it probably won't because you can get the Nightclub's obscene growth rate into play faster.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to say, none of the buildings next up look all that appealing until you get to the Condo and Credit Agency. They both provide a nice boost for the first level or maaaaybe two. And you still don't have to save $40M at one time. But I expect that by the time I PvP my way 12 levels up to the Condo, I will already be well on my way to my first Nightclub, if not level 2.
And why do I advocate upgrading to Level 2 before building a second Nightclub? Remember kids: a 27% increase in time investment is worth 200% gain. And this was at about $2.5M a day. If you double that, the time increase is only 15%. But you have probably squandered a bit of time on lower payout buildings.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But you're still focused on the Nightclub with its nasty 6-hour payout!
I sure am. Why? Because at level 10 it's still better than the level 165 Casino at level 10... even if you only collect twice a day. If it is robbed one of those times... well, it's still cheaper to build and upgrade, so yes, it still is at least as good on the whole. It doesn't take long to overtake the Casino. Plus, it's available as soon as you can get 300 mafia, so you don't have to level up to the Indian-players-with-too-much-disposable-money bracket.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll go ahead and raise my own one objection to this entire post:
Y U NO USE TRAMPY MATH?
I'm lazy, for one. And for another, it all depends on your collection cycles. If you collect throughout the day, like me, all those little buildings upgraded a little make lots of sense. They add up. But for less frequent collectors, your income is generally much smaller until much later on, and it's hard for you to catch up. Because I can do both. The math changes a lot. For every significant upgrade you make, your savings time can change drastically. It is a method of constant re-evaluation, and planning ahead several steps must take this into account.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mega TL;DR: In general, MT, Loft, NC are your big priorities at varying stages of the game. B Buildings are there to help fund them, and are fine when you aren't spending relatively huge sums of money for relatively small gains. As the biggest earner in the game, the Nightclub outpaces its biggest competition such that ultimately, even collected only twice a day, it earns more than the Casino for cheaper upgrades.
Thanks for playing! Oh, and please leave your fish at the door.
EDIT: I am finally adding the guidline formula. Hopefully this helps clear things up a little and gives players a more user-friendly format than a text wall.
The formula should have these components:
S = sum of the incomes of all buildings per day
I = income gain of upgrade in question per day
U = time cost of upgrade
Lost-income *only for level 2+ upgrades; zero for new buildings* = (current building income per day)*U
Savings-time = (cost of upgrade+Lost-income)/(S) *adding the Lost-income here rolls the time-cost during the upgrade forward to before it ever occurs; this is optional, but seems appropriate considering saving starts when your building or upgrading functions are engaged*
Time-cost = (I)/(U+Savings-time)
This formula is the reverse of RoI. Instead of calculating how quickly an upgrade pays itself off, you see how quickly you can afford to build something; it accounts for your entire system's resources, not just the gain of one. Generally, as you go up the list ROI gradually decreases, depending on your actual collection frequency. But the Time-cost changes in interesting ways depending on how frequently you collect certain kinds of buildings and how much your income grows. What ends up happening is a graduation to larger upgrades per unit time invested when it makes sense according to your income.