How could a 17K attack raid a 22k def???

[sillyfool]

I have 22k def without any def buildings.
A player with 17k attack raided me!
How is it possible?
I have 18k+ attack, I can raid him easily, who has 17k def.
Def buildings are no longer meaningless??

[JohnnyR]

What happens is this:

Boost buildings are not accounted for in player stats. This means his attack could be 20% higher than what you are seeing.

Or...

He has put a very high amount of skill points into his attack score, allowing him more chances to succeed when he raids you.

Also, raids seem to be easier to succeed at than regular attacks for some reason. I never had a problem raiding others, no matter the stats.

[sillyfool]

This is so sad...

[StuN]

I had a similar issue with a player that had 17k att opposed to my 28k def. He attacked me & lost, then raided & won. The building that was raided was covered by 3 minefields & my def skill is 102. Tbh, I'm close to giving up on this game. It seems, no matter what your stats are, you can't defend against raids, so what's the point!

[Maverick50727]

I had a similar issue with a player that had 17k att opposed to my 28k def. He attacked me & lost, then raided & won. The building that was raided was covered by 3 minefields & my def skill is 102. Tbh, I'm close to giving up on this game. It seems, no matter what your stats are, you can't defend against raids, so what's the point!Yes it appears that way sometimes. I was just raided by someone with 20k attack vs my 29k def under a minefield and railgun. I have pretty high attack and def skills. I posted to their wall to see if they would respond about their skills. I can easily attack back and win so it could cost them to do so. Maybe hit them back and they won't come back. Why they are able to is a mystery as nobody knows the raiding dynamics. Base defenses and skill points are factored into raids but we have yet to figure it out.

[Aidan]

I believe tht skills point does not come into play when raiding or raided. It will only come into play when attcking and defending against attack.

Tht will be the only reason i cn think of fr a case where u won an attack against you but you lost a raid by the same persons who has similar or higher att score thn ur def. Happened to me mny times with the most recent bout a month ago. This person has bit higher att thn my defense; he attacked me n failed (i probably hv 97-99 def skills points at time). He then raided me n won. I cant think of any other reason why he cn fail an attck on me with higher attck score except tht my def skills points hv come the rescue. He however was able to raid me. Why didnt my def skills point save me again this time?

If u see the wording in the skills tab; it really is suggesting tht it only work for attack not raid. Read the whole wording for attack, defense and stamina carefully and u might agree with me in this.

[YLL]

Maybe that player drastically cut his number of allies before you looked at his profile, so causing him to appear to have much lower attack points when you looked?

Also, chance is an element of the game, I believe. I usually attack/raid a given opponent several times in a row for efficiency, and sometimes, I lose the odd battle or raid - even if the opponent's defence is several thousand points below mine.

Conversely, in my 'earlier' days in the game, when most opponents' vaults were only like $250-500k, I used to chance attacks on players with higher defence points than I had attack points. I actually won often enough to make the losses worthwhile (although it doesn't make for pretty stats).

[sillyfool]

If the def can't protect player from being raided, then what can?
The def buildings are also useless, then what's the meaning of this game.
This is ridiculous....

[Maverick50727]

I believe tht skills point does not come into play when raiding or raided. It will only come into play when attcking and defending against attack.

Tht will be the only reason i cn think of fr a case where u won an attack against you but you lost a raid by the same persons who has similar or higher att score thn ur def. Happened to me mny times with the most recent bout a month ago. This person has bit higher att thn my defense; he attacked me n failed (i probably hv 97-99 def skills points at time). He then raided me n won. I cant think of any other reason why he cn fail an attck on me with higher attck score except tht my def skills points hv come the rescue. He however was able to raid me. Why didnt my def skills point save me again this time?

If u see the wording in the skills tab; it really is suggesting tht it only work for attack not raid. Read the whole wording for attack, defense and stamina carefully and u might agree with me in this.
I asked Crime City Mark (Dev) in a PM about the skills and if they affected raiding, the answer was yes or more exactly I quote "Attack / Defense skill have an impact on all PVP actions."

They of course won't give up the secret formula which I understand.

[Aidan]

I asked Crime City Mark (Dev) in a PM about the skills and if they affected raiding, the answer was yes or more exactly I quote "Attack / Defense skill have an impact on all PVP actions."

They of course won't give up the secret formula which I understand.

Thanks Mav for the clarification.
Well this just make things more confusing. Lol. How do u explain bout the scenario tht i described earlier.
Back to the drawing board!

[StuN]

Cheers Mav, I'm even more confused than ever about how he managed to raid me lol

[Hellstorm]

The best is I successfully raid people all the time with higher stats plus strong defense buildings but when I attack the same person I lose. It seems different rules apply for raiding than for attacking.

[Napolemon]

Guys, I might be missing something here but it does sound quite feasible to me to loose an attack but succeed in a raid.*
Indeed I would tend to compare an attack with a more formal 'war' between 2 armies whereby all the various units will fight versus each other hence resulting to a bit more of an expected outcome when comparing people's stats (incl boost and nation bonus).
The raid on the other hand is an isolated attack to a particular building so could mobilise a certain category of the units of the attacking player as well as a category of the ones from the defending player. I dont yet understand the full mechanics but believe that the nation of each players plus the units make up that are 'strong against' could play a big part of the equation.
It also still make sense to focus on succeeding attacks pvp re of raids even if it is to collect the valor bonus points and also as the possible reward is far greater with attacking.

[Warfiend]

I've been kicking around a theory about this I've been toying with based on all the posts I read on this subject. It's based on "how would I do this to make it interesting?" So it goes like this... how would you differentiate a raid in a simulation? How are they different in real life? A full on military on military attack is throwing what you have at the other person and them using what they have to defend back. Not hard to grasp. But what is a raid in real life? It would involve a smaller amount of the most capable units for the job, ideally speaking.

so how do you translate that into the game mechanics of this game? I would take into account the more powerful attack units in the raiders inventory in some way. I would weight them a bit more heavily in the raid scenario and I would weight the most powerful defense units in the defenders inventory a bit more heavily. I've yet to be successfully raided, so I haven't been able to draw on any of my own data on this. But in scenarios mentioned in the OP, I would look to compare the strongest units in the attackers forces versus the strongest units in the defenders forces to see if there is a substantial disparity there.

I don't think it would rest around a single unit, or even a specific number, but would be a unit density average of a certain percentage that I would seek to implement. I can't tell you what that percentage is as if I was coding it myself I'd have to play around with it to get it where I want. But this is how I would approach it if I were designing it so maybe there is a variation of this going on.

Just throwing that out there.

[Warfiend]

As an example with numbers of what I'm trying to communicate, say you have two forces of 100 units each.

Attacker has:
10 units with attack of 40
90 units with attack of 10
Total attack score of 1300

Defender has:
100 units with defense of 20
Total attack score of 2000

Attacker can't win in attack without lucky quirk.

Now say the raid calculations take into account the top 10 percent in each force.

Attacker's top 10 percent = 400
Defender's top 10 percent = 200

Attacker can easily raid.

I would expect the calculations to be more sophisticated than this, possibly using a larger percentage with other variables, but this could be the general way it works. It could also explain why some people have luck with defense buildings while others see them as useless. Take the example above, if defender had two defense buildings valued at 30 each covering the target of the raid, he would still only have a 260 score in defense of that building. But if the defender's top 10 percent were units of 35 defense, totaling 350, and then add the same two 30 defense buildings, it would bring his defense to 410 = little joy for the attacker.

It could also just be average unit density in general. I wish I had more data.

[Napolemon]

Hi Warfiend, I think your approach is sensible. Also, maybe, we need to think about the fact that some buildings may be more likely to be raided by a certain type of units. When raiding, it is clearly a plane that we see raiding the building as part of the simulation so one would naturally think that air units would tend to play a key role in raids. But as there are different type of buildings, we could extend this logic further and imagine that for instance oil rigs are more likely to be raided by sea / air units whilst an inland building more likely to be raided by ground units / air units etc
Then from a defensive play perspective, this could be offset by the number of Strong against units in the arsenal of the defender that could be used to neutralize the strongest attacking units etc
Might be going completely off here but anyway...

[JMC]

First off he likely has boost stat that isn't showing up so he could be around 19K attack versus 22K defence and that isn't a big difference at all. Next could be the attack skill point but really doesn't matter that much. Anyone with atleast 75% of your defence in attack can win raids against you sometimes. When attacking, defender has the advantage. When raiding, attacker has the advantage.

[Freekizh]

And that's why I don't build up my money buildings too much. Any Tom, **** and Harry can raid you.

Especially a level 8-10 munitions. I always see them raided.

[JMC]

You make more money with high level buildings that get raided once every so often than you do with low level buildings that dont get raided.

[Maverick50727]

It is really hard to say as we know units, defense buildings and skills play some part. I hate to throw $#@ in again bu every money building seem sto have its own defense value in the data files. So that may also be added in some way with the attackers blood type. LOL

I personally really haven't done many raids as opposed to attacks. I was really surprised a few tiem when a weaker player hit me dead center of strongest defense buildings. I have also done the same to others I thought my equal and really did expect to win. Example I have used several times is a person within 1-2K my attack and I hit a building they had covered by 5 EMPs (2 L3, 2 L2 1 L1). That seemed pretty strong but I walked right through and then raided the EMPs themselves all without losing a single unit. It really makes me wonder the real value of my own defenses.

I have got to the point where I let people raid me 3-4 times before I call them out for revenge by attacks. I attack and raid which is all part of the game. Since I run a low ally count many think I'm weaker than I actually am and if there comes a pest that is close to me, I add 10 allies and/or buy 40 valor units or the like to allow me to win in revenge attacks to the point they stop raiding beause the loss in units for them from my revenge attacks is less than they get in the raids. I know this won't work forever since at some point I'll reach my max allies again, but allows me some room for now. FYI I keep valor in reserve for such purchases and quick bumpups. I have 100k+ valor now in the bank. Sometimes just a friendly warning to please stop or force me to use it sends them running for easier targets.

There will also always be bigger fish than me, so I don't start something unless I'm pretty sure i can finish it. The biggest fish just come for the cash, so vault and spend the cash to keep them away.

[Maverick50727]

First off he likely has boost stat that isn't showing up so he could be around 19K attack versus 22K defence and that isn't a big difference at all. Next could be the attack skill point but really doesn't matter that much. Anyone with atleast 75% of your defence in attack can win raids against you sometimes. When attacking, defender has the advantage. When raiding, attacker has the advantage.Was the attacker has advantage in raids confirmed by devs or just a theory. I've seen that stated before but can't remember where.

[JMC]

Don't know if it's been stated by devs, but it's quite obvious and has always been that way.