Defense buildings, revisited

[Aid]

I know there are a ton of defense building threads, but I have upgraded a few of my turrets and Thai centers to level 2 and 3, and when the upgrade is complete the entire value is being reflected in my stats screen. I am almost positive that in the past only a portion of the 'face value' showed on your stats screen.
So if there is anyone that sees me on your rival list could you please attack me and let me know what my defense shows? I am level 141, please PM me with your findings.
Thanks

[Chiefer]

Opps, I misread it, I thought it add's defensive buildings to your defensive total. But doesn't count towards the defense goals. Did I get it this time?

[Aid]

I am trying to figure out some things. It seems some players have many defense buildings at high levels and almost all defense is reflected in fight screen (save for a few hundred points). Others have a ton of defense buildings and when you attack them the defense shown is thousands less.

[Aid]

Opps, I misread it, I thought it add's defensive buildings to your defensive total. But doesn't count towards the defense goals. Did I get it this time?
Think I responded too fast. My defense buildings did count towards my defense goals. But I think in the past when you upgraded defense buildings only a portion of the upgrade actually was reflected in your defense ....so if I upgraded a Thai center to level 2 which is 40 defense, only a gain of 35 defense would show. So I think there have been changes made to defense recently

[silverbackspur]

Your defence is 34, 295
Could you attack me back and let me know mine(rozza)

[nvbealone]

the more def buildings you have in your hood, the bigger the difference shown on the fight screen. as such, it creates a 'false impression' that you are strong. it acts as a deterrent but not actual def strength

[Aid]

Your defence is 34, 295
Could you attack me back and let me know mine(rozza)
Yours is 31753

[silverbackspur]

Attacked you the second time by mistake,

[silverbackspur]

Bit of a difference to the 37,481 stated then.
I have lots of level 10 bodyguards that wasted my time and do sod all.

[Rhino72]

Silverback here is a great thread that I don't think many people ever saw or newer players never read:

http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthre...2565#post42565

You might have seen it since you joined in Sep 2012. Either way, I think it is good to bring back and let others see it.

[Aid]

Bit of a difference to the 37,481 stated then.
I have lots of level 10 bodyguards that wasted my time and do sod all.
I really think there have been some changes made on the back end. I have attacked some players that have many defense buildings and the defense shown is close to what is on their profile. But, I will have to do some more checking to see if I can figure it out. Thanks silverbackspur

[Swifty]

@Rhino72

That link does not work for me.

[dudeman]

@Rhino72

That link does not work for me.

It doesn't work for me either.

[Rhino72]

Strange, sorry gents. Try this:

http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?9738-Quitting-the-game&p=42565#post42565

[Chiefer]

This dude I just attacked fronted a 2k more value than when I saw his defense stats after I whooped his butt in an attack. Was 12k in the rival profile and 10k in the fight results.

[Aid]

@chiefer, not sure if you are a big PvP, but if so when attacking others try to pay attention to the hood (lots of defense building, lots of high upgraded money buildings), I know most will think I am nuts, but I am finding with some players much of their defense is carried into an attack while others seem to carry only a small amount. I am beginning to think it has to do with other building upgrades, etc.

[jlhy]

http://crimecityios.wikia.com/wiki/Defense_Buildings

Look at the Mafia D section on each building. Thats the total amount of defense the building will provide you against attacks per level of the defense building. (defense number in the fight screen).

For example:
Level 4 Abandoned Building would increase your attack defense by 5 (2+1+1+1=5)
Level 4 Guard Tower would increase your attack defense by 7.5 (3+1.5+1.5+1.5=7.5)
Level 4 Bodyguard Agency would increase your attack defense by 25 points (10+5+5+5=25).
Level 4 Muay Thai center would increase your attack defense by 45 (18+9+9+9=45)
Level 4 Gattling Turret would increase your attack defense by 62.5 (25+12.5+12.5+12.5=62.5)
Level 4 Sniper's Den would increase your attack defense by 80 (32+16+16+16=80)

So if you look at a level 10 bodyguard agency in someones hood its providing them with 750 or 826 (tycoon) profile defense but only adding a total of 55 defense vs attacks (fight screen).

The tycoon bonus value doesn't apply to attack defense value.

So if you see a lot of high bodyguard agencies you will see a pretty big difference in their profile defense and compared to their defense in the fight screen. You will see less variance if they have a lot of the high end defense buildings such as missile turrets, surveillance centers or police stations. The lower the upgrade level of the defense building the less variance you will see between the players profile defense and fight screen defense numbers.

Previously you could check the numbers by using the defense goals but funzio has changed it so it shows your profile defense now. Only way to check now is to have someone attack you, tell you your fight defense, build or upgrade a defense building and have them attack you again and tell you the result.

[Swifty]

@Rhino72

thanks for the new link, that worked

I am very interested in the "defense skill calculation" part of it. Note that he does not say "defense skill." What kind of calculation is it? Is the defense skill a multiplier in a complex formula?

[i need muney]

I thought that this is old news and everybody knows that upgrading def.buildings only gives you that much.
Attack a guy full of level 10 BGA's and you'll see his def is 10k below his profile or even worse.

[jlhy]

@Rhino72

thanks for the new link, that worked

I am very interested in the "defense skill calculation" part of it. Note that he does not say "defense skill." What kind of calculation is it? Is the defense skill a multiplier in a complex formula?

Its been asked many times but funzio refuses to say.

[jlhy]

I thought that this is old news and everybody knows that upgrading def.buildings only gives you that much.
Attack a guy full of level 10 BGA's and you'll see his def is 10k below his profile or even worse.

The majority of the newer players probably miss or overlook the defense building thread in the stickies above.

[Nicholost]

Its been asked many times but funzio refuses to say.

Haha. Rhino72 and I were just talking about this this morning. I will let him post up the link to a thread where CCM explains the impact skill points have. He's the one who dug it up and deserves the credit.

EDIT: BTW, jlhy, your post was excellent. I'm adding that one to my best of CC link list.

http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?24065-Defense-buildings-revisited&p=163327&viewfull=1#post163327

[Rhino72]

@Rhino72

thanks for the new link, that worked

I am very interested in the "defense skill calculation" part of it. Note that he does not say "defense skill." What kind of calculation is it? Is the defense skill a multiplier in a complex formula?

Well Swifty that is very interesting that you ask that because I just happen to have this thread as well:

http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?9971-Attack-and-Defense-bought-with-skill-points&p=54129#post54129

Even when CCM says "those numbers are wrong" I am making a guess that the multiplier is a big number to make a difference in the thousands.

[Lars]

I am very interested in the "defense skill calculation" part of it. Note that he does not say "defense skill." What kind of calculation is it? Is the defense skill a multiplier in a complex formula?

As far as we know from the game data (TrampStamp came up with a formula for the factor tabled by player level):

MIN(1.09 + 0.09*(Level - 1); 10) * DefenseSkill)

Most likely it's just added to the defense total.

[Swifty]

@Rhino72

thanks for that last link, it is a very interesting example that CCMark uses

@Lars

Unless my math is wrong (always a possibility), the TrampStamp formula gives a much smaller number than CCMark's example

[Rhino72]

@Rhino72

thanks for that last link, it is a very interesting example that CCMark uses

@Lars

Unless my math is wrong (always a possibility), the TrampStamp formula gives a much smaller number than CCMark's example

Swifty that is what is always confusing me with TS formula. CCM made it sound like it was in the thousands and could be a huge number. Is it possible that the attack / def skill point calculation is not part of the rob / fight screen or profile screen? Could it be a completely back end calculation that gets added into each rob / fight but we never see it?

[Lars]

Unless my math is wrong (always a possibility), the TrampStamp formula gives a much smaller number than CCMark's example

Think your math is right. :) Unfortunately we only have CCMark's example (with possible fictional data) and the numbers from game data (table by level) labeled as pvp_defense_scale. For levels 100+ the latter equals 10.

[Swifty]

@Rhino72

Definitely a possibility. That so-called random factor might actually be a lot more complicated that just a pseudo-random number.

[Lars]

Is it possible that the attack / def skill point calculation is not part of the rob / fight screen or profile screen? Could it be a completely back end calculation that gets added into each rob / fight but we never see it?

I am pretty sure it's not included in the rob/fight screens (calculating equipment plus adjusted defense buildings without any skill information matches the screen listings).

In addition, different money buildings seem to have an individual build-in defense against robberies (maybe building level dependent, maybe not).

[Rhino72]

Think your math is right. :) Unfortunately we only have CCMark's example (with possible fictional data) and the numbers from game data (table by level) labeled as pvp_defense_scale. For levels 100+ the latter equals 10.

Lars so I would then question that since goals like immortal (def at 36K) seemed to be an end game goal do you think when the game was developed that the developers thought that would be one of the last goals accomplished and that nobody thought that buying gold would become as big as it has? If the cap was around 36K for end game defense then I could see a multiplier of 10 being reasonable but with many high level defenses 50K + the multiplier seems so low.

[Rhino72]

I am pretty sure it's not included in the rob/fight screens (calculating equipment plus adjusted defense buildings without any skill information matches the screen listings).

In addition, different money buildings seem to have an individual build-in defense against robberies (maybe building level dependent, maybe not).

Ok thanks that is good to know because I was always having a hard time getting my attack on screen to match what I calculated without adding in my attack points multipled by 10.

[Lars]

Lars so I would then question that since goals like immortal (def at 36K) seemed to be an end game goal do you think when the game was developed that the developers thought that would be one of the last goals accomplished and that nobody thought that buying gold would become as big as it has? If the cap was around 36K for end game defense then I could see a multiplier of 10 being reasonable but with many high level defenses 50K + the multiplier seems so low.

For the defense goal Funzio now uses the defense from equipment + the listed buildings defense (the higher one, shown in the buildings info and including the tycoon bonus). You also get it listed in the goal screen.

And yes, I think the multiplier seems low, too.

Also, I think there is an unknown element. For example when my defense against robbery was about 12k (according to the computation that fits the robbery result screens, profile defense of 24k), rivals with 14k Attack were consistently losing their robbery attempts on me. The effects of the skills should not be big enough to explain this (and I doubt all these rivals hat an attack skill much lower than my defense skill).

[Nicholost]

In addition, different money buildings seem to have an individual build-in defense against robberies (maybe building level dependent, maybe not).

This one has had be very intrigued the last few weeks. Any ideas how the money building's defense value effects robberies? I would assume that value comes into play when that particular building is being robbed, but from what I have seen, it's typically a small number, so I assume it to be a multiplier of some sort. Any thoughts, Lars?

[Lars]

I would assume that value comes into play when that particular building is being robbed, but from what I have seen, it's typically a small number, so I assume it to be a multiplier of some sort. Any thoughts, Lars?

I would also guess it's a multiplier. The low numbers (ranging from 1 for laundromats to 108 for palm hotels) do not really make sense otherwise. The most obvious idea would be a multiplier to the buildings level. However, as TrampStamp pointed out, the entry is not named base_* like other entries to be scaled by level.

Very hard to tell as we lack reliable data. I got to admit I am a bit lost about the actual effects of the values.

[Nicholost]

I would also guess it's a multiplier. The low numbers (ranging from 1 for laundromats to 108 for palm hotels) do not really make sense otherwise. The most obvious idea would be a multiplier to the buildings level. However, as TrampStamp pointed out, the entry is not named base_* like other entries to be scaled by level.

Interesting observation about the base_* trend. However, if you look at the data for any defense building, the item_defense property both matches the displayed defense for that building at level 1 and the property name is not prefixed with "base_." If the "base_" logic held true, a defense building's actual defense should not increase with leveling since the defense would be a fixed value. We know that not to be true, so it breaks the "base_*" hypothesis. Unfortunately, this only clouds the waters, not clears them. http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h257/nicklepics/nothing%20of%20use/Emoticons/unamused.gif

Personally, I think a money's building's defense property is affected by skill points and/or level. So if a money building is robbed, the defense against the robbery would look something like:
actual_defense = (0.5 x player_item_defense) + defensebuilding_defense + (this_buildings_defense x level x skill_point_multiplier)

Like you said, we lack reliable data.

[deuces]

I'm extremely interested in this topic, and would be happy to provide data from level 130+. I rob a guys nightclubs every other day or so, and his defense is 50% more than my attack. I dont have many fails on his other buildings, tho i dont hit them since it wastes my explosives and they dont pay out high enough...But on his nightclubs, i get at least 50% fails. I think theres got to be some correlation between skill points and multiple aspects of fighting/robbing as Nicholost said.

Thoughts on taking this discussion to IRC or something like that?

[Lars]

Good point on the base_*-hypothesis.


Personally, I think a money's building's defense property is affected by skill points and/or level. So if a money building is robbed, the defense against the robbery would look something like:
actual_defense = (0.5 x player_item_defense) + defensebuilding_defense + (this_buildings_defense x level x skill_point_multiplier)

Interesting idea. As I mentioned before, robbers with 14k Attack failed consistently when I had a robbery defense (0.5 x player_item_defense + defensebuilding_defense) of only 12k. Unfortunately I do not know which buildings they tried to rob, can be anything from laundromat (defense of 1) to Russian restaurant (defense of 66).

[Lars]

I'm extremely interested in this topic, and would be happy to provide data from level 130+. I rob a guys nightclubs every other day or so, and his defense is 50% more than my attack.

It's very difficult to get appropriate data here unless both robber and robbed one participate. Ideally we for had a situation where a robbery sometimes fails and sometimes succeeds with 1. the targets robbery defense (available calculated from equipment and defense values or from robbery result screen) 2. his/her defense skill and level 3. the robbers attack skill and level 4. the building type and level. I guess you can provide anything (maybe on private channels ...) except for the defense skill. Maybe it's already enough to do an initial check on the formula Nicholost proposed.

A nightclub has a defense value of 80. What where the other high-end buildings you were successfully robbing? What levels are these and the nightclubs?

[deuces]

I'll have to wait until i find him again to provide anything really.

The other 2 sets of buildings worth hitting for me are hotels and gent clubs. His pirates and rock cafes are up quite often when i visit, i'd be fine with hitting them and wasting some explosives if it'd help. If i find him i'll take notes of how many hits things take, and will screenshot the robbery screen and his profile.

[deuces]

well ok that was quick, came across him about 5 minutes later after not seeing him for 2 days. Nightclubs were not up, but all 24 and 12. This is everything i hit and the successes and failures.


1x gent club l1
success
success

1x gent club l1
success
fail
fail
fail
success

2x hotel l1
fail
fail
fail
fail
fail
fail
success
fail
success
success
success

1x church l4
fail
fail
success
success

1x upscale l1

fail
fail
success

2x rock cafe l1
success
success
fail
success
success


http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee130/pocktdeuces/robscreen.png
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee130/pocktdeuces/profile.png

[Plux]

I think they just boost up the numbers for the effect of looking strong but I tend to choose my attacks by seeing who has the most defensive buildings and if they make up most of the defence number I attack so in hindsight I think they are just for show as was mentioned above. Go for Income it's far better!!!

[Aid]

I think they just boost up the numbers for the effect of looking strong but I tend to choose my attacks by seeing who has the most defensive buildings and if they make up most of the defence number I attack so in hindsight I think they are just for show as was mentioned above. Go for Income it's far better!!!
So then why are you doing all the defense as shown below?

As discussed with Tramp Stamp a few months ago, I am putting certain plans and strategies into action now. Upgrading is key, I am now Building Fortress Plux all nice looking defensive buildings will be 10's. 50 x Gattling Guns will all be 10's. Police stations will be 10's. Muay Thai's will be last but will be 10's. 6 x Body Guard centres will be 10's. 50 x Missile Turrets will be 10's. While doing that, My hood income will be building my Nightclub upgrade strategy so I become the only player with 2 x Level 7 Nightclubs. Income should rise to $2.46m per hour with Defensive investment at 30% HDDP (Hood Daily Domestic Product) or $59million per day/$17m Def spending.

[Santa]

Why does Plux speak in 3rd person? And why does he make so many fan accounts?

IMO Defense buildings should be 2nd priority to economy. 50x Gatlings is my goal. :)

[pluxfan2]

Season's Greetings Santa.

Plux did not set this account up, I assure you. Im just a fan of his income work, Hence the name. I personally think he is an idiot building his defences to 10, he hasnt read the forums properly and does not understand the defensive mechanics of the game.

Still he is a bit of an income guru though.

Perhaps I might set up a Santa Fan account soon.

Plux fan 2

[Fig Oni]

@pluxfan is your ingame name g?

[Rhino72]

@pluxfan is your ingame name g?

I think his in game name is tramp stamp.

[deuces]

Personally, I think a money's building's defense property is affected by skill points and/or level. So if a money building is robbed, the defense against the robbery would look something like:
actual_defense = (0.5 x player_item_defense) + defensebuilding_defense + (this_buildings_defense x level x skill_point_multiplier)

Like you said, we lack reliable data.

I just hit this guys nightclubs again. 1 is level 1, the other is now level 3. (was lvl2 until a few days ago) I started out on the level 3 one, had probably 4-5 fails, then hit the level 1 and got a clean hit first try. Hit the level 3 again twice and the second time was clean. I failed another 3 times, got a second straight clean hit on the level 1, then hit the level 3 3-4 more times and got another clean hit.

Obviously tiny sample, but level of building has got to be a big factor. I wonder if like the money aspect, theres type a/b for defense? This is the biggest difference i've seen between levels in buildings...but my sample size again is just so tiny. If indeed it works the same as the money aspect, maybe that 102 defense becomes 918 by level 3?

edit: 918 with some multiplier could add quite a significant amount to ones robbery defense.