Updated Loot Spreadsheet

[itzkakarot]

Hey guys,

The Loot spreadsheet had some bad data in it, so I went through the CC files for 2.2.1 and pulled out the current drop rates & info. You can find it all here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqX4lDb5cyUvdHl6RXFncTlLVDY5NjdvQ3FZWmF3e Wc

Easiest way to use the spreadsheet is to make yourself a copy and filter/sort it to suit your needs.


Edit: Updated for 20120405_0 dataset


Happy looting.

-itz

[Nicholost]

Rad. Thank you, itzkakarot. http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h257/nicklepics/nothing%20of%20use/Emoticons/thumbsup.gif

[jlhy]

Thank you itzkakarot.

[Santa]

Amazing! Did you make all that yourself?

+1

This should be stickied. :)

[itzkakarot]

Amazing! Did you make all that yourself?

Yeah, the data wasn't too hard to relate, Funzio did their part setting up a properly normalized database. I did it last night for the Modern War loot, once I finished MW the CC one was easy to do.

I just wish I could figure out the darned algorithm for calculating building upgrade costs and timers for MW. There's nothing in the data for upgrades, just the initial build price. So it must be calculated, but I can't figure out the pattern.

[Santa]

Yeah, the data wasn't too hard to relate, Funzio did their part setting up a properly normalized database. I did it last night for the Modern War loot, once I finished MW the CC one was easy to do.

I just wish I could figure out the darned algorithm for calculating building upgrade costs and timers for MW. There's nothing in the data for upgrades, just the initial build price. So it must be calculated, but I can't figure out the pattern.

I don't understand but whatever. As long as the data is correct...

[iteachem]

Will throw my thanks in as well... I have definitely become a better player as a result of your work

[Santa]

One fairly major problem. Under the "drops per 1000 energy" tab, most only show 0's with no decimals.

[Rhino72]

Nice job itz. I was always wondering how the loot spreadsheet was populated and I guess you can data mine the database. How is it possible to get access to the database? Wouldn't it be protected or is it badly protected?

[itzkakarot]

One fairly major problem. Under the "drops per 1000 energy" tab, most only show 0's with no decimals.
I realized I'm missing drops from a lot of the multi-drop bosses. I'm going through that data now and will update the sheet shortly.

Also keep in mind that the sheet shows all jobs, and not all jobs have loot rewards.

[Swifty]

Many thanks for your efforts.

[mnju_03]

I realized I'm missing drops from a lot of the multi-drop bosses. I'm going through that data now and will update the sheet shortly.

Also keep in mind that the sheet shows all jobs, and not all jobs have loot rewards.

You rock! I don't catch half the stuff you pros catch.

[Boom]

Thank you! :) I tried doing the 5x195 spa for a NATO gas mask and got it on first try (did it for fun)

[itzkakarot]

Ok, sheet's updated. It should now contain all job and boss loot data. Note that the sheet does list all jobs, including the ones without loot rewards. You can easily filter out the Blanks on Column K, if that's desired.

[Chiefer]

Doesn't matter at all. 3 weeks ago the m4-a1 was on that list. You guys need to open your wallets and spread your bills. Please stop trying to farm. You are not allowed.

[itzkakarot]

FYI - I fixed a couple of calculations, particularly around the "gains per experience" fields.

[erik]

Great work sir.

[i need muney]

You rock. I couldnt do it.
Two things:
1. Name data by date from "about" page. Dataset can change multiple times per version.
2. You're payouts are messed up. Look at UN Plaza to see.

[itzkakarot]

Thanks muney. In response to your items:


1. Name data by date from "about" page. Dataset can change multiple times per version.
That level of detail is on the "Readme" (formerly "Instructions") tab


2. You're payouts are messed up. Look at UN Plaza to see.
Good catch, thanks. That's what I get for staying up too late. I had the min/max reversed for most of the jobs, except for a few of the bosses that I updated manually. Should be all fixed now.

[i need muney]

I've read the deets. Just thought it might be usefull if you, for one, decide to update the data and put it in a new tab.
And thanks again for the effort.

[ShawnBB]

Doing pier 13 bomb squad suit non stop since lvl 63 unlocked :)
Figured out myself with that 48 ppe and high drop rate. Best looting spot so far. go for it guys.

Btw, every building in MW seems growing in a same pattern of
1 2 3.5 5.5 ...... Which is the TypeB style in CC.

[Silvio]

Dude - thanks a lot! You not only provided the updated spreadsheet, but you added the functionality I had built into my last bastardization of allhaildiscordia's.

Props!

[beaux]

Much thanks from here too your work is greatly appreciated!

[MajorOffensive]

Doing pier 13 bomb squad suit non stop since lvl 63 unlocked :)
Figured out myself with that 48 ppe and high drop rate. Best looting spot so far. go for it guys.

Btw, every building in MW seems growing in a same pattern of
1 2 3.5 5.5 ...... Which is the TypeB style in CC.

Yes, the income seems to grow this way, but the upgrade costs in CC are 167% of the previous level's cost, the same for any type building. Ex: Nightclub level 1 = $40,000,000. Nightclub level 2 = $66,700,000. OP, I would test this with a couple levels of a cheap building. They probably use a really simple formula like this one.

[Vile Lynn]

WTG Itz! I don't know how you did it, but thank you so much for helping out those of us who aren't as computer savvy as yourself. Your contribution is amazing! Lots of work, too!
Thank you!

[itzkakarot]

Yes, the income seems to grow this way, but the upgrade costs in CC are 167% of the previous level's cost, the same for any type building. Ex: Nightclub level 1 = $40,000,000. Nightclub level 2 = $66,700,000. OP, I would test this with a couple levels of a cheap building. They probably use a really simple formula like this one.
Thanks guys. Yeah, Tramp and Nicholost hooked me up with the formula for the MW buildings, I've got it up on my new spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqX4lDb5cyUvdDE2cE1heUx3RmMyeE9wTGJ5ZGhyc 3c

But the problem is Funzio has some crazy rounding mechanism that varies depending on how much the upgrade costs. I haven't been able to find the pattern yet for it. But at least the estimates get us most of the way.

[erik]

Looking forward to seeing the new maps when you get a chance!

[i need muney]

They just had to update right after you updated the unupdated :p

[itzkakarot]

Oh no... they're onto me! :p

Eh, I've pretty much got it down to a science now. Give me a few days to carve some time out of RL and I should be able to update the sheet.

[i need muney]

You have Paypal? I think some of the guys could send you a buck or five. Lootsheets are invaluable for hardcore CC players.

[mnju_03]

You sir are my hero, very nice work, very nice indeed. Thank you. :D

[Rhino72]

I am board with you Muney. Itz if you have a paypal I will donate a few dollars. Great work and invaluable. Would it be possible to PM me how you can actually do this? I am a tech guy at heart and love to hear about this stuff conceptually.

[i need muney]

I am board with you Muney. Itz if you have a paypal I will donate a few dollars. Great work and invaluable. Would it be possible to PM me how you can actually do this? I am a tech guy at heart and love to hear about this stuff conceptually.
You use xslt to output xml trees into html and then import that to excel.....I think ;)

[allhaildiscordia]

The property lists are binary, not xml.

[itzkakarot]

I am board with you Muney. Itz if you have a paypal I will donate a few dollars. Great work and invaluable.
Well, I don't know any SW developer who would turn down offers of donations for their time spent. :) If you're really interested, you could send them to itzkakarot(at)gmail.com on PayPal.


Would it be possible to PM me how you can actually do this? I am a tech guy at heart and love to hear about this stuff conceptually.
Check your inbox :)

[jaywalker]

Not sure if anyone actually noticed, but there is error in column T and U. In all rows, except #2...

=P2*$R$2
=P3*$R$2
=P4*$R$2
=P5*$R$2

Should be:
=P2*R2
=P3*R3
=P4*R4
=P5*R5

etc. Messes up the att/def gained by per 1000 xp.

[itzkakarot]

Good catch, Jay. I had removed the absolute cell references in the XP columns but not the Energy. The spreadsheet has been uploaded.

Also, I've begun hacking through the latest dataset, so that should be up in the next day or so.

[jaywalker]

Anyone tested the Stone Hammer at pier 13? I went 0/8 or so today :(

Oh, and they did move the DD from Leila to.. Some other chick? Or was the Cherry Dixon?

[itzkakarot]

Anyone tested the Stone Hammer at pier 13? I went 0/8 or so today :(

Interestingly enough, the drop rate hasn't changed for this in the latest dataset. But there have been quite a few nerfs (183 to be exact).

Can't answer your DD question, but the new sheet should be ready tonight. I've got all the data gathered, I just need to break out the multi-loot jobs into separate records.

[Nicholost]

Interestingly enough, the drop rate hasn't changed for this in the latest dataset. But there have been quite a few nerfs (183 to be exact).

Holy ****! Seriously?!

Would it be easy to add a new tab that shows what was nerfed?

[Swifty]

183 nerfs?

Were they in the release notes?

[i need muney]

Interestingly enough, the drop rate hasn't changed for this in the latest dataset. But there have been quite a few nerfs (183 to be exact).

Can't answer your DD question, but the new sheet should be ready tonight. I've got all the data gathered, I just need to break out the multi-loot jobs into separate records.
Yay! You rock, nerfs suck :(

[itzkakarot]

183 nerfs?

Were they in the release notes?
Sadly, no. I'm not sure there really are exhaustive release notes posted anywhere. I knew about them by doing a diff on the old data with the new.

And if you guys think 183 nerfs suck, you're not going to like this next part... I did a quick scan through the drop rate changes. Almost half of the nerfs have drop rates reduced by 50%, and a lot are reduced by 75%. Here are a few examples:

Lookout Hill - Obelisk - Mossberg 590 Shotgun - was: 16%, now: 4%
Empire Central Station - Smoke Shop - Urban Warfare Vest - was: 44%, now: 22%
Empire Arena Plaza - Clothing Store - Urban Warfare Vest - was: 24%, now:6%
Red Light District - Sue Pine - Double Decker - was: 24%, now 6%


Pretty bad, I'd say. The loot spreadsheet is updated with 20120405_0 data, so check it out for yourself when you get a chance.

[Swifty]

Major bummer on the drop rate reductions.

They are really cracking down on farming.

I guess they are trying to persuade people to play "The Game As It Was Meant To Be Played."

[itzkakarot]

Major bummer on the drop rate reductions.

They are really cracking down on farming.

I guess they are trying to persuade people to play "The Game As It Was Meant To Be Played."
I think you mean "Pay The Game As It Was Meant To Be Paid", Swifty...

[i need muney]

I knew they ****d Sue. Just saw it in here eyes.

UPD: payouts are off again

[itzkakarot]

Payouts should be correct, mun.


So guys, so just because I'm a nice guy, here are the details on the drop changes: http://goo.gl/ydeeQ

[i need muney]

Payouts should be correct, mun.
So guys, so just because I'm a nice guy, here are the details on the drop changes: http://goo.gl/ydeeQ
I cannot agree more, they SHOULD be :D Check out last five bosses for example.
And thanks for the changelog. Glad I'm almost done with DD's *phew!*

[deuces]

lol great red car now drops 3%. was 12% before.

ugh

thanks a ton for the work tho itz, great job!

[kaz]

I can’t believe it, I planned on farming UWV for boosting my def, but now it's only 6% drop rate instead of 24% (!). Definitely not worth the unlock buy-in. Ouch :(

[itzkakarot]

Yup.. and while Rusty M4s got far too much attention here, this recent nerf is probably much more substantial.

[Nicholost]

I thought Funzio was against us farming the low-hanging fruit. This change proves that they are flat out against farming altogether. Bummer. Farming and economy are my two favorite components of this game. That makes Nicholosts :(.

[Fricco]

I can’t believe it, I planned on farming UWV for boosting my def, but now it's only 6% drop rate instead of 24% (!). Definitely not worth the unlock buy-in. Ouch :(
sure it is, this is the game plan...
drop 15 mill on DD 5 days before they get nerfed, then drop 7 on UWV only to allow them to get nerfed,
changed stratergy to Empire Central Bus watch there drop rate plummet. bend over and call it a day.

[Fricco]

That makes Nicholosts :(.

if your lost imagine where the rest of us are.

[itzkakarot]

I thought Funzio was against us farming the low-hanging fruit. This change proves that they are flat out against farming altogether. Bummer. Farming and economy are my two favorite components of this game. That makes Nicholosts :(.
I hear ya, bro. Hopefully by raising some awareness of these changes we can empower the players to "lobby" Funzio and fix a major problem which is only getting worse. Making money is clearly a #1 goal of any organization, but plenty of Video Game makers and Software Companies across the board have proven that they can make money while keeping ALL of their players happy.

If it wasn't for the repetitive nature of Gold purchasing (at literally hundreds of REAL dollars per purchase), I'd be singing a different tune. Name one other Video game or service that demands such investment compared to the value being added?

I don't wish for this to sound like a QQ session, and I'm certainly not looking to get banned. I merely wish for us to have an adult conversation about the imbalance between Paid play and Free play in this game.

/gets down from soapbox

[Nicholost]

To be clear, I am perfectly fine with an imbalance existing between free players and gold spenders. IMO, no farmable weapon should be able to compete with the stats of gold weapons. All I want is to be rewarded for my work. I want to analyze my stats and inventory, determine where my weak areas are, develop a plan to improve them, then set out farming a particular item to accomplish this. Some find this extremely dull, but I find it very fun and rewarding.

If I want to be a true contender or make significant leaps, I spend gold. I have spent hundreds of RM on gold for this reason and will continue to spend gold on weapons even while farming.

[dudeman]

Thanks for this itzkakarot. Nice work.

[Plux]

Will be working on Kane da Silva at the Octagon Alley Map.

[allhaildiscordia]

Sounds to me like you are looking at the 2.0.2 data set. It had a "b" at the end of the version and has the rates cut by 4 generally. I still see the "good" rates in 0405_0

[Santa]

Wait. 183 nerfs? NOOOOOOO. My entire plan is being demolished in front of my eyes. No Urban Warfare Vest? No M4A1? No Double Decker?

*sits down and cries*

[itzkakarot]

Sounds to me like you are looking at the 2.0.2 data set. It had a "b" at the end of the version and has the rates cut by 4 generally. I still see the "good" rates in 0405_0
So I just did some more digging, and it appears that there are 2 datasets for each revision, a "b" dataset and a "non-b" dataset. When I compiled this sheet last night, the "20120405_0b" dataset was the only new one available and as such the one I used.

However, allhail, you're right. There's a 20120405_0 dataset now which has different drop rates that do in fact look better.

So the question is, how does CC determine which dataset to use for a particular drop, the "non-b" or the "b"?

[i need muney]

D'oh! I'm confused. And hungry.

[Benjammin]

The chemical plant police car drop says 3% drop rate for double decker. I GUARANTEE it is higher than that, as I have gotten quite a few there. Unless they changed it in the past few days..

edit: Just read the posts about a giant nerf. Well this is just great!!!! There goes all my plans..

[itzkakarot]

Ok, so I have good news, bad news, and confusing (?) news.

The good news is, there is another dataset which has drop rates which haven't been nerfed by 50% and 75%. This one is labeled 20120405_0.

The bad news is, the dataset that I used originally is legit, and does in fact display the nerfed rates. That one is labeled 20120405_0b.

The confusing part is, who can say when CC uses the rates from one dataset vs the other. I'm aware that the CC About screen doesn't show the "b" version. But before you all start cheering, it appears that there's a "b" version of the dataset for each data update going as far back as August last year. This begs the question, why does the "b" version exist unless CC is somehow making use if it?

I'm beginning to think khung may have been onto something when he wrote about the time-of-day-based drop rates in his M4A1 looting guide (http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?15281-How-I-loot-the-M4A1s).


I'm going to post both datasets in the Loot spreadsheet, and you guys can be the judge. I'll do the update tonight/tomorrow.

[itzkakarot]

Alright folks, spreadsheet is updated again. It now contains tabs for both sets of data, and another tab which just compares the drop % differences between the two.

I still don't know when one set is used instead of the other. I appreciate any of your hypotheses or theories.

[i need muney]

Empire Central Station Smoke Shop $190,000- $1,062,000 :D I wish

[kaz]

Awesome job itzkakarot!
I guess we just need to test the drop rate by keep farming.

[JimmyShines]

The "b" version of the data is used on clients that still support loot drops per click for multi-click jobs. For the iphone that would be version 2.0.2, the best client version they ever made IMO. For the ipad it's several versions. As soon as they start enforcing the client version on each device, I'm sure they will stop splitting the static data files. And yes Khung was right about time of hour having an impact of rate % (This also applies to the events as well). Remember these are just the static files, as you enter each area the client gets data from the sever to offset or modify what is read from the static data.

Thank you itzkakarot for posting the spreadsheets for all. :o

[Rhino72]

So jshines do you think the time at which you loot is no longer a factor? I am trying to figure out what the end of your post means.

[Santa]

Wait...time of day matters? That's not really fair, seeing as many players are in different time zones. We could be asleep in MD during the "best" time of day to farm a specific item.

Can anyone confirm? If time of day IS a factor, it will be a major game changer...

@itzakakarot

Thank you soooo much! :)

[i need muney]

The "b" version of the data is used on clients that still support loot drops per click for multi-click jobs. For the iphone that would be version 2.0.2, the best client version they ever made IMO. For the ipad it's several versions. As soon as they start enforcing the client version on each device, I'm sure they will stop splitting the static data files. And yes Khung was right about time of hour having an impact of rate % (This also applies to the events as well). Remember these are just the static files, as you enter each area the client gets data from the sever to offset or modify what is read from the static data.
Any proof to that? Sound logical, but needs proof.

[Rhino72]

Wait...time of day matters? That's not really fair, seeing as many players are in different time zones. We could be asleep in MD during the "best" time of day to farm a specific item.

Can anyone confirm? If time of day IS a factor, it will be a major game changer...

@itzakakarot



Thank you soooo much! :)



Santa you got involved in the Khung how I loot my m4 thread at the end where this is the theory that people thought he was trying to imply (along with only doing three clicks and the famous no greedy). It was never confirmed and many different people had different opinions. I always found it strange that somebody finally said in a post that they figured out exactly what Khung now meant and it was game breaking in terms of looting. He then said he was going to send it to funzio and a day or two later was when the m4 Nerv came (maybe the poster was duder or dudeman but I can't remember and didn't look back????). I have always wondered and would love to know other opinions on rng calcs or drop game theory in general because they always make for nteresting topics where I bust out my spreadsheet and start recording all times and drops...

[ABlueTree]

I know I don't post often, but I just hit lvl 103 today, I woke up with full energy (2100) at lvl 102, used it all at


Empire Arena Plaza Clothing Store 1(click) 195(energy) Urban Warfare Vest armor 11(a) 20(d)

with 10 clicks I got 4 urban warfare vests. I lvled to 103 shortly thereafter doing pvp, then went to the red light district

Red Light District Red Cascade 1(click) 171(energy) Empire Central Bus car 15(a) 17(d)

of which I got 3 empire central busses out of 12 clicks. I know my sample sizes aren't large enough to be of statistical use, but the rates seem good enough to be able to farm these, for me atleast.

[Rhino72]

Those are good 1 click items to farm. You hit for above average which is nice for you but I am sure a few people dumped full energy bars when they woke up this am and got nothing. I have tested 200 clicks on the red cascade and came very close to the loot spreadsheet rate of 12% and right now I am stocking up on the urban warfare vets and after a few hundred tries I can also say that it is very close to the 24% on the sheet. If anybody figures out a time when to increase this rate let me kow :-)

[Santa]

Those are good 1 click items to farm. You hit for above average which is nice for you but I am sure a few people dumped full energy bars when they woke up this am and got nothing. I have tested 200 clicks on the red cascade and came very close to the loot spreadsheet rate of 12% and right now I am stocking up on the urban warfare vets and after a few hundred tries I can also say that it is very close to the 24% on the sheet. If anybody figures out a time when to increase this rate let me kow :-)

I thought UWV was nerfed? Or is that what the whole thing over the "b" or "non b" is about?

[Rhino72]

I haven't seen that as the case at all. I just started farming them on Monday and I have been around 7 / 8 a day at the clothing store.

[kaz]

I thought UWV was nerfed? Or is that what the whole thing over the "b" or "non b" is about?
In the regular database the UWV has 24% drop rate. In the 'b' database it has only 6% percent.

[i need muney]

I thought UWV was nerfed? Or is that what the whole thing over the "b" or "non b" is about?
It's still 22% even if it is.

[ABlueTree]

Those are good 1 click items to farm. You hit for above average which is nice for you but I am sure a few people dumped full energy bars when they woke up this am and got nothing. I have tested 200 clicks on the red cascade and came very close to the loot spreadsheet rate of 12% and right now I am stocking up on the urban warfare vets and after a few hundred tries I can also say that it is very close to the 24% on the sheet. If anybody figures out a time when to increase this rate let me kow :-)

gonna keep track of my drops and see what happens after 100 attempts. working on the bus right now cause i need vehicles

[Santa]

It doesn't really matter to me, I'm only level 67, but the UWV's are a big part of my future farming plan. :P

[dudeman]

Santa you got involved in the Khung how I loot my m4 thread at the end where this is the theory that people thought he was trying to imply (along with only doing three clicks and the famous no greedy). It was never confirmed and many different people had different opinions. I always found it strange that somebody finally said in a post that they figured out exactly what Khung now meant and it was game breaking in terms of looting. He then said he was going to send it to funzio and a day or two later was when the m4 Nerv came (maybe the poster was duder or dudeman but I can't remember and didn't look back????). I have always wondered and would love to know other opinions on rng calcs or drop game theory in general because they always make for nteresting topics where I bust out my spreadsheet and start recording all times and drops...

I can tell you it wasn't me. I went looking for the posts* you spoke of, where the poster mentioned he figured it out and instead of sharing it he blew the whistle on everything. The whole game did change after that happened.

* I believe the post you are thinking of can be found here: http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?21229-Double-Decker

[Ghost818]

I will never forget the name of the guy who brought us the information that Khung was right, even if people thought he was a looney, it means there really was something behind his logic that got the M4s nerfed. The guy was Downrange, not dudeman leave poor old dudeman alone!

BTW I think khung is Payam on another account, both had the same grammar and communication skills.

[allhaildiscordia]

The random function used by the game is "cryptographic strength". Time of day/week/month has nothing to do with it.

[Fig Oni]

I will never forget the name of the guy who brought us the information that Khung was right, even if people thought he was a looney, it means there really was something behind his logic that got the M4s nerfed. The guy was Downrange, not dudeman leave poor old dudeman alone!

BTW I think khung is Payam on another account, both had the same grammar and communication skills.

I'm sure Khung isn't Payam as the 2 people lifestyle don't match plus I don't see Payam as a bad guy he quite a nice bloke just he takes rivalry too personal.

If you noticed Khung was a calculated guy where as Payam is a instinctive guy.

Ghost even after Khung posted his theory of looting M4's people didn't listen as funzio kept on tightening the drop rates at the 2 main areas junkyard and broadwalk.

By nerfing the M4's all they succeeded with was losing players that didn't farm M4's & new player when they get to level 100+ will also drop out as the best gun to loot is the rusty M4's so a person with 250 M4's should be untouchable compared to a person with none.

I would love to know what percentage of crime city player buy gold/cash.
I'd say 3-10% max.
Also with the sale record funzio assessed that once you get a person buying gold they will start buy at a steady rate so at first they signed up with tapjoy hoping it would get more gold buyer which didn't happen as well as planed, so some bright spark thought about implementing event & selling crates to get people buying gold the good thing was it was very successful but greed got the better of them so they tighten up the final prize on the following event aka emerald event and lost alot of gold spenders by burning them (chance or no chance spending over 3000 gold to get emerald 9 + 10 and still ending up with 8) in my opinion is strange probability and if only as mark quoted 3% of the gamers use the forum and over 50 people using the forum got burnt even though they brought 3000 gold to get the final prize.

Now this pendant event is a very easy event when it come to getting pendant.
They need people to buy gold as the game is really a real cash game and by nerfing loot items and making sure most decent item need 6-20 hits for an item to drop is just emphasizing that to play the game you need gold as I don't see as Mark quoted gold is a substitute for time.

Like alot of people have said if they never invested real money in the game they would have already been gone.

[i need muney]

I will never forget the name of the guy who brought us the information that Khung was right
He just said it, I spy with my little eye something with no proof :D

[Swifty]

@allhaildiscordia

"cryptographic strength" is a flaky pseudo-random number generator. Results that fall outside p=.01 are fair subjects of criticism.

It is the departures from statistical norms that cause people to invoke factors like time of day or phase of the moon.

I would love to have one of the Funzio staff post on here and defend the statistics of their "cryptographic strength."

[Rhino72]

I can tell you it wasn't me. I went looking for the posts* you spoke of, where the poster mentioned he figured it out and instead of sharing it he blew the whistle on everything. The whole game did change after that happened.

* I believe the post you are thinking of can be found here: http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?21229-Double-Decker


Ahhh yes, Downrange was the guy. The D confused me Dudeman so thanks for digging it back up and linking it. That thread was so interesting that a few days later say hello to the Rusty M4s and goodbye to the M4s + DDs. I guess I also pulled a Clemens and "misremembered" because he was posting a response back to Dudeman. Didn't Downrange disappear after this?