M4A1 Update!

[Boomer]

As there has been much discussion on this issue, we wanted to provide an update. The original M4A1 was an unintentinally overpowered weapon, and was causing a severe imbalance in the game.

The decision to change the item drops rather than nerfing the existing M4A1's across the board was reflective of the amount of time and effort many people have put into obtaining them. We had to fix the on-going imbalance, but we did not and do not want to invalidate the effort that our players have already invested in improving their characters.

Going foward the drop will now be the Rusty M4A1.

Please attach all comments to this issue in this thread.

[G Wiz]

What about the longevity of the original m4a1 in our inventories? what happens to this part of the weapon?

EDIT: I misunderstood. You have answered this by saying "going forward".

[Yahkin]

Are you considering a similar strategy in regards to the Double Decker bus?

[doug19]

Does the removing of the M4A1 not further imbalance the game when you compare those with 500 to those with none? That's a huge disadvantage for those that were later starting the game!

[Nicholost]

Boomer, thank you for the reply. Seeing that Funzio's choice was between nerfing everyone's M4A1s and changing the loot drop, I would say that you chose well. Thank you for letting us keep what we currently have because, as you guessed, there is a substantial amount of time and effort involved in collecting those items. Ideally, I would have liked for them to stick around and continue to drop as they have because looting is a fun dynamic of CC's game-play, but that's not in my control.

I do have a request for the future though. Would it be possible to share changes such as these with the community (i.e. forum) prior to release? I feel this would substantially reduce the anger toward Funzio that's fueled by surprise and confusion when changes occur out of what feels like nowhere. It would probably cut down ont he number of incoming tickets you receive as well; a substantial cost savings.

Out of curiosity, does Funzio post release notes for either client releases and/or server releases? I would very much like to read them if they are available.

Finally, cheers for the creative name. Rusty M4A1 is a fantastic name for the stat-reduced M4A1 successor.

[Alice]

Honestly, I didn't see any imbalance for the original M4A1, since anyone could manage up to 500.

It is changing drop rate or nerfing actually that caused unfair. While changing drop rate only makes the game more changeling, rust it only cause permanent imbalance. If that's what funzio really intended.

Since M4A1s are non consumable, we could no longer beat those who already had a lot of M4A1, UNLESS we buy gold.

I think funzio's ultimate goal for this downgrade is to make money, so stop claiming "imbalance" please.

[Ghost818]

I think the ultimate goal for this downgrade is to make money!
Be honest, isn't everyones?

@Nicholost well said bro.

[Vile Lynn]

I do have a request for the future though. Would it be possible to share changes such as these with the community (i.e. forum) prior to release? I feel this would substantially reduce the anger toward Funzio that's fueled by surprise and confusion when changes occur out of what feels like nowhere.

I 2nd that.

[Santa]

As with most games that include purchasable in game currency, money is always a top priority. But with the hopes of increasing revenue comes the need for players to participate. By letting us keep our previously farmed items, Funzio is giving us a gift. Now, most gifts come with a price, and this one certainly did. But hey, what would you do if 1% of your players had a strategy to become hopelessly overpowered against the majority of the non gold players out there? You don't want to cause, and this is my opinion, a bad reaction.

If, and I say IF, those were the only two options available for Funzio, the. They definitely chose the correct one. But could we please have some explanation/previous notice the next time this happens?

[Alice]

Be honest, isn't everyones?

Agreed, so stop saying "severe imbalance" anymore please, funzio.

[Supermark]

I think, farming the m4a1 was my main goal. I think i better start camping now, because there is nothing better to do. Which problably makes me stop this game in two weeks.

[Swifty]

Thanks for the update. Better late than never.

[PhantomNine]

I am so upset with Funzio, they took a good game and totally fudged it up. Farming those M4A1s was one of the reasons why I played. It truly made my day to get one of those and now I've really nothing to hold my interest. I'm sure that this move by Funzio, will not garnish any new players (negative word of mouth) but instead will lose alot of us older players.

[G Wiz]

Atleast we can move on now!

[jaywalker]

I don't like the nerf, because of everyone who already got 2-500 of them. I will, however, continue to play the game. If people choose to leave the game because of one item (old timers), it should be easier for everyone who farms the rusty to stand a chance later on.

In the future, as mentioned before, do include the forums users though.

[CJ54]

Honestly, I didn't see any imbalance for the original M4A1, since anyone could manage up to 500.

You're forgetting all the people (majority) who don't read the forums. They didn't really have a chance of knowing about how easily these were farmed.

It was better than any similarly obtainable item (and most items that are harder to obtain) in the game, bar none. So for everyone who knew about it, the whole point of the game as far as improvement goes became "get M4 A1s". That alone is ridiculously unbalanced. Meanwhile everyone outside that loop is at a serious disadvantage playing the game the way it was meant to be played.

For clarification, here's how this happened: Due to an error on our end, there were two items called M4 A1 in the item database. The one that was in our official notes had the stats of the rusty M4. The one actually in the game had the stats of the old M4. Every time we'd see people farming these, we'd check the "official" stats and go "Huh, I don't see the problem, they only have such-and-such stats". So basically, we dropped the ball hard on noticing this one and are going to be much more careful from here on out.

The decision to leave the existing ones alone was made for the stated reason; if we had just nuked them from orbit or reduced the stats on all of them, we would have invalidated collective years of effort/energy/time. That's not fair at all to the players, because this was no fault of theirs and it was not a day or a week of time, but months.

The wish for a solid well-defined "point" to farming and the happiness at seeing a good item drop has not gone unheard, though. Keep posting the feedback on that.

[G Wiz]

I can understand all that CJ said.

Like nicholost said, though, is there anything else under scrutiny that you guys over at corporate are reviewing?

[Santa]

You're forgetting all the people (majority) who don't read the forums. They didn't really have a chance of knowing about how easily these were farmed.

It was better than any similarly obtainable item (and most items that are harder to obtain) in the game, bar none. So for everyone who knew about it, the whole point of the game as far as improvement goes became "get M4 A1s". That alone is ridiculously unbalanced. Meanwhile everyone outside that loop is at a serious disadvantage playing the game the way it was meant to be played.

For clarification, here's how this happened: Due to an error on our end, there were two items called M4 A1 in the item database. The one that was in our official notes had the stats of the rusty M4. The one actually in the game had the stats of the old M4. Every time we'd see people farming these, we'd check the "official" stats and go "Huh, I don't see the problem, they only have such-and-such stats". So basically, we dropped the ball hard on noticing this one and are going to be much more careful from here on out.

The decision to leave the existing ones alone was made for the stated reason; if we had just nuked them from orbit or reduced the stats on all of them, we would have invalidated collective years of effort/energy/time. That's not fair at all to the players, because this was no fault of theirs and it was not a day or a week of time, but months.

The wish for a solid well-defined "point" to farming and the happiness at seeing a good item drop has not gone unheard, though. Keep posting the feedback on that.

Thanks for the update, on the update.

Also, can someone (preferably a mod/dev) confirm that the drop rate for the rusty is the same as the original? Cause I think imma farm the rusty's anyways because they're stats are still quite good for my level. Maybe he strategy is different for others?

My post M4 adjustment plan:

Farm for Armored Police Trucks @ Chinatown
Get back into M4 farming (rusty's)
Find a farmable armor item

[Swifty]

@CJ54

thanks for the further clarification

[Ohaithere]

Thanks for that cj. I was just wondering what would count as an unfairly strong item. Was it because the m4 had no other cash eqiuilivent and was stronger defensively than the respect guns? Would tis happen to another items in the game that are currently out there and would be be able to get prior warning? I'm in terms of the double deckers, I have spent a week trying to save the money to unlock them, I am now one and a half million away. They are a very strong vehicle but then exceleros and cash items beat it.

Thanks, I also think would be quite a nice idea if at the start of every month there was a thread where you say plans for the month, it would be interesting for some of us t read and then we can give feedback before it happens, which you can use or not.

Again thanks

[Ghost818]

I like that idea Ohaithere, and thank you CJ for the clarification.

[Caleb]

Boomer and CJ54 - thank you for the explanations. Your comments help in understanding how the game is evolving and where the developers are coming from, rather than leaving us completely in the dark. Please keep the communication lines open with your forum community.

[Alice]

You're forgetting all the people (majority) who don't read the forums. They didn't really have a chance of knowing about how easily these were farmed.

Thanks a lot for a very detailed explain, but I could hardly believe a serious player dedicated lots of time/energy farming but missed this forum....


For clarification, here's how this happened: Due to an error on our end, there were two items called M4 A1 in the item database. The one that was in our official notes had the stats of the rusty M4. The one actually in the game had the stats of the old M4. Every time we'd see people farming these, we'd check the "official" stats and go "Huh, I don't see the problem, they only have such-and-such stats". So basically, we dropped the ball hard on noticing this one and are going to be much more careful from here on out.

Compared to golden M4A1 (62/52 or so?), a normal M4A1 (20/22) does have a reasonable stats. I'm not trying to imply anything here...though

[Ohaithere]

I like that idea Ohaithere, and thank you CJ for the clarification.

They dig it in another online gamei played a few years ago, but then this is a different type of games and these updates are for game balance not for enhancing it so to speak. Our feedback could potentially be useful though, we have seen them usng out ideas for naming items and so why not have an open mind to our ideas on updates? We mint stumble upon a good'un

[Nicholost]

The wish for a solid well-defined "point" to farming and the happiness at seeing a good item drop has not gone unheard, though. Keep posting the feedback on that.

Thank you for recognizing that farming and looting is an actual component of the game that people play, enjoy, and focus on just as others play PvP, PvE, and economy. Where is the best place, and what is the best way to channel this feedback? New threads, one single-source-of-truth thread, General, Feadback & Suggestions???

BTW, you guys are a lot less evil when we actually hear from you. When changes and decisions are made from an all-powerful big brother, it's quite easy to be mad at the anonymous figure pulling the strings. Reading your response as to how this was overlooked on Funzio's end shows a human side and provides clarification as to why you guys do what you do. Please, I say again, please communicate this more frequently. I really do think it will help diminish a lot of blind anger and hate toward Funzio.

[Ghost818]

^^^ You are on a roll, keep it coming bro couldn't agree more.

[Alice]

I'm on your side Nicholost. :p

Even without farming, we still need 850+ days to complete all missions of all levels. But stamina missions could be finished within months. So if M4A1 disappears, there is no point farming anymore, if looted items couldn't be a replacement of RP items.

[Nudie]

I wish I had gotten a few more shiny M4's but life goes on I suppose. Does this mean that shiny M4's has now become a limited item?

[Gaming Will]

Yes, thanks Boomer and CJ for the updates. It does bite that I barely started farming them.

[doug19]

Completely agree with Nicholast's last paragraph in his last post. Appologies for my 'anti-funzio' comments earlier, was just annoyed as I saw that I was being denied a chance to match those around me in terms of M4s, but now I see why it was done.

The forum is not the sole source of information though, I found out about the M4 from another player in game long before I found the forum.
Could there not be some form of reward for those of us that take the time to post on these forums & engage in the game more than just by playing it? Eg... Forum members are told the location of a temporary farmable item of good stats? Even if the item was only available for say 1 week before being removed from the drops I think this would be a nice reward/treat to those of us following the forums. What does everyone else think of that idea?

[kimberleyj]

I think is a little unfair for people who haven't started farming these, this is going to make the game unbalanced.

[Euchred]

And life goes on.

[Alice]

I think is a little unfair for people who haven't started farming these, this is going to make the game unbalanced.

That's the only part I think is imbalanced:p

[Ghost818]

I think is a little unfair for people who haven't started farming these, this is going to make the game unbalanced. But it would have also been unfair for the people who have put their time into farming these in my case 470 of them, and magically they were removed? or even nerfed? I wouldve been outraged.

To those who havnt started or didnt get enough, give funzio some time. Im sure they will come up with something in the near future.

[Euchred]

I find it funny how m4's get removed because of balance. In my opinion it just creates a larger gap between gold buyers and non gold buyers.

[CJ54]

In response to questions about other loot items: We're definitely combing through the database right now on the back end, looking for any other obvious situations where something is working differently in-game than it was designed to be doing. If we find this is the case we'll evaluate what to do on a case-by-case basis and err on the side of tweaking rather than removing, and make a post stating what we found/what we did. I don't see any other sweeping changes planned at all.

This is important: The goal wasn't and isn't to take away good farming opportunities, or to force people to buy gold. There should be a natural range of bad/okay/good items that can be obtained in-game. But if the effort isn't at least somewhat tied to the reward, or something is the *only* option or you're just plain wasting your time, that's a real problem. What we want above all is for people to have a reason to keep on improving (and playing the game), and if the best is too easy to obtain then that stops.

The upshot of this is it has us looking at the flow of the game and the farming opportunities more closely (for areas where that can be improved, even), and that will only improve the overall game in the end.

Again, we might have to make some smaller tweaks in the case that something's actually broken. We might not. Either way, we'll keep you guys in the loop.

[Ghost818]

Again, we might have to make some smaller tweaks in the case that something's actually broken. We might not. Either way, we'll keep you guys in the loop.
This satisfies me, thanks for the input CJ.

[Alice]

But it would have also been unfair for the people who have put their time into farming these in my case 470 of them, and magically they were removed? or even nerfed? I wouldve been outraged.

To those who havnt started or didnt get enough, give funzio some time. Im sure they will come up with something in the near future.

I'm almost sure nothing as good as M4A1 will come, and the imbalance will always be there. It is definitely worse to nuke old M4A1s, and the best way is just keep M4A1 as what it was.

Surely new items could be added to re-balance the game. If it is a technical glitch of that 20/22 stat, then the mistake is funzio's, but players got punished instead.

[doug19]

In response to questions about other loot items: We're definitely combing through the database right now on the back end, looking for any other obvious situations where something is working differently in-game than it was designed to be doing. If we find this is the case we'll evaluate what to do on a case-by-case basis and err on the side of tweaking rather than removing, and make a post stating what we found/what we did. I don't see any other sweeping changes planned at all.

This is important: The goal wasn't and isn't to take away good farming opportunities, or to force people to buy gold. There should be a natural range of bad/okay/good items that can be obtained in-game. But if the effort isn't at least somewhat tied to the reward, or something is the *only* option or you're just plain wasting your time, that's a real problem. What we want above all is for people to have a reason to keep on improving (and playing the game), and if the best is too easy to obtain then that stops.

The upshot of this is it has us looking at the flow of the game and the farming opportunities more closely (for areas where that can be improved, even), and that will only improve the overall game in the end.

Again, we might have to make some smaller tweaks in the case that something's actually broken. We might not. Either way, we'll keep you guys in the loop.

Can that post saying what you found/did please come before you do it? It will make everything simpler & won't result in people getting as annoyed since they will know what is happening & not feel as though the carpet has been pulled from under their feet all off a sudden & with no explanation

Other than that thanks for explaining everything

[angelobruno]

This is so unfair to those who have not farm M4 A1 coz they will never got the chance to beat the people who have farm earlier. Since M4 A1 cant be farmed the only chance to beat them will be using lots of gold, if the developer say M4 A1 is an overpowered weapon why not just remove the weapon or change the original weapon to rusty M4 to get things balanced up.

[Nicholost]

Again, we might have to make some smaller tweaks in the case that something's actually broken. We might not. Either way, we'll keep you guys in the loop.

Excellent. To me, why you made the changes and how things changed are typically more important than what was changed. It makes planning, strategy, and enjoyment of the game sooo... much better, not to mention the community experience.

[Ghost818]

Surely new items could be added to re-balance the game. If it is a technical glitch of that 20/22 stat, then the mistake is funzio's, but players got punished instead.

If your country announced now it was okay to steal, and everyone started stealing, but then it turned out the person who delivered the message to the announcers was just a newly hired 18 year old kid who messed up and gave his notes instead of the actuall memo. Would it be morally okay for everyone to continue stealing after the flaw in the message was discovered? Eventually the error would have to be revised. Thus, our situation. Of course this wasnt the best example but I think the message is somewhat clear?

[Steve0]

Soooo Now since they are nixed it, what about mine that are missing from last week that i have not recieved, ticket number 61311, and ticket number 62317. it sure would benice to get a responce.

[Alice]

This is important: The goal wasn't and isn't to take away good farming opportunities, or to force people to buy gold. There should be a natural range of bad/okay/good items that can be obtained in-game. But if the effort isn't at least somewhat tied to the reward, or something is the *only* option or you're just plain wasting your time, that's a real problem. What we want above all is for people to have a reason to keep on improving (and playing the game), and if the best is too easy to obtain then that stops.

Thanks for aiming at keep people playing or even farming. But actually there aren't any looted items good enough to beat rp items, except M4A1. It's quite acceptable to just modify the dropping rates, but rusting M4A1s just denies farming opportunities. (Some players are farming DDs but Exeleros are much better choice) It's not like other games that farming only requires diligence. Energy takes a lot of time to recover and needs to be dedicated to the right choice. If there aren't any energy consuming looted items better than the rest, then there is no point farming.

[jaywalker]

When it comes to farming items, give one of your employees (or yourselves) 10k gold and start farming the most popular spots.

You have "upgraded" the cost to do quests before, you could do this with a new spot for farming m4a1's. It the costrange of the DD's maybe....?

OT: Change early game building/ upgrading goals to be more usefull. And "tell" people that upgrading, expanding and building new buildings is the way to go.

[Swifty]

@CJ54

Thanks for the further clarification.

[Whoopdido1980]

Thanks Funzio for the explanation. I can definitely see where you're coming from. However, I don't understand why just making all the M4's the same lower stat wouldn't have been better.

Anybody that had already spent the time farming would still have an advantage as their time and effort would have gotten them 500 rusty m4's. Compared to those that only have a few or haven't even started yet, they'd still have a huge advantage and they should since they spent so much time farming. Player A's 500 m4's would be turned into 500 rusty m4's. Player B's (myself) 93 m4's would be turned into 93 rusty m4's. It's still going to take me a very long time to get up to 500 rustys. As it stands now my 93 m4's and 407 rustys will be drastically worse than Player A's 500 m4's. It's not fair because I could have got the same amount of m4's as Player A but now it's impossible.

[Joeycool]

I think we could use some more powerful weapons in the game for high level players.

People are talking a lot about the M4a1 as the best weapon in the game that is free. Which is true. However I do not take 500 into a fight with me. I have more powerful weapons than that in my inventory now. I only take in 338, and other high level forum members have said similar.

Perhaps respect items that are unlocked by level.

At present there are no items that really add to my stats from, jobs, PVP loot or even from the store. the game is starting to get a bit dull for me really in that respect.

PVP used to be great because of loot drops. Now the loot drops are useless. The only point in fighting is to get respect points that add up at a snails pace in order to buy a respect item that will add 2 or 3 points to a stat level that is in the tens of thousands.

[dudeman]

Firstly, it's nice to finally see official statements, so I would like to say thank you for that.


You're forgetting all the people (majority) who don't read the forums. They didn't really have a chance of knowing about how easily these were farmed.

No one told me about the forum. I didn't even stumble upon it by accident while googling Crime City tips. I found out about the forum when I was looking through the menus in game. Unless something has changed, every player has easy access to an in game advertisement for the forum. I believe it says something like "visit the forum for the latest crime city tips and hints". Or something close to that.

If players are told within the game itself to visit the forum for tips and hints, who is to blame if they choose not to take advantage of such an opportunity? If players are too lazy or ignorant or don't care to look up the best tips and tricks, why do those of us who DO care get penalized? I understand we aren't really being penalized in this case, but people put a lot of time into discovering all these tips and hints, and the existence of the forum is not a tightly kept secret. People who do not visit the forum do so by choice and if that choice is caused by ignorance, it certainly is not the fault of the players who do visit the forum whether they be members or lurkers.

[Alice]

If your country announced now it was okay to steal, and everyone started stealing, but then it turned out the person who delivered the message to the announcers was just a newly hired 18 year old kid who messed up and gave his notes instead of the actuall memo. Would it be morally okay for everyone to continue stealing after the flaw in the message was discovered? Eventually the error would have to be revised. Thus, our situation. Of course this wasnt the best example but I think the message is somewhat clear?

I could almost understand what you are trying to say. But in your way, looting M4A1 is compared to hacking or some gold cheating, etc. That's the part that I don't think everyone could agree with.

Nobody needs to be warned not to cheat before getting punished.

[Santa]

PVP used to be great because of loot drops. Now the loot drops are useless. The only point in fighting is to get respect points that add up at a snails pace in order to buy a respect item that will add 2 or 3 points to a stat level that is in the tens of thousands.

Welcome to the game of Crime City.

[Joeycool]

Oh and back on thread... I think that Funzio's decision is spot on here.

Thanks for the feedback.

Well done for addressing the issues and responding to the community.

Nerfing peoples M4a1's stats would have seen every single senior forum member quit... plus everyone who had a number of the weapons I'm pretty sure of that.

To those who are complaining about missing out on getting 500 M4a1's - unlucky. You should have come to the party earlier.

last month we had a lock box event... you may have missed that too. But the weapons that we fairly won in that certainly shouldnt be nerfed just because you weren't playing the game then so didn't get chance to get them.

[Bruiser]

I'm with you on this one Joey, I would have walked away if that had happened.

[Ghost818]

I could almost understand what you are trying to say. But in your way, looting M4A1 is compared to hacking or some gold cheating, etc. That's the part that I don't think everyone could agree with.

Nobody needs to be warned not to cheat before getting punished.

Let me try to make it more clear, the error that went unnoticed was from funzios side, so they had to fix it eventually, as for farming m4s, it was never and is not forbidden, but it was technically the error that was released. Like i said, my example wasnt the best, but it someone gets the message through.

[Alice]

Oh and back on thread... I think that Funzio's decision is spot on here.

Thanks for the feedback.

Well done for addressing the issues and responding to the community.

Nerfing peoples M4a1's stats would have seen every single senior forum member quit... plus everyone who had a number of the weapons I'm pretty sure of that.

To those who are complaining about missing out on getting 500 M4a1's - unlucky. You should have come to the party earlier.

last month we had a lock box event... you may have missed that too. But the weapons that we fairly won in that certainly shouldnt be nerfed just because you weren't playing the game then so didn't get chance to get them.

I'm with you on this one Joey too..


Let me try to make it more clear, the error that went unnoticed was from funzios side, so they had to fix it eventually

That's proved to be a very difficult error to get fixed...though:p

think about three possible case:

1. nuke all M4A1: old players exit
2. nuke all future M4A1: new players discouraged
3. nuke nothing: game continues, everyone is happy with it. the game is as good as it was for months, didn't see a reason why M4A1 must be rusted.

lockbox event is actually another case, one diamond sig do not change thousands of att/def, and everyone thinks there could be more events in the future. That's why no new players are complaining missing that event, but a lot of players are against rusted M4A1

[erik]

Good communication, and an a bit of a humorous explanation as well. I can picture the folks at funzio wondering why in the heck we are all so excited about these things with 'mediocre' stats.

I think the imbalance issue for this weapon comes more from the level it is unlocked more than anything. If it unlocked somewhere past 100, it is pretty reasonable. But it unlocks in the junkyard, and for those who know this and farm it from that point on.... clearly they will dominate folks at their level 9 to 1. I did, as did most of you.

Funzio has added only a small number of good farms... but has put in real level and cost challenges to open them. There are also much better RP items... and that makes good sense IMO. I hope we get a few more choices like that.

[Walter]

As for improving farming opportunities, a great place to start would be 100% drop rates in areas that require a tremendous amount of energy to complete. I understand why the multiclick was changed, but dropping 4800 energy at the courthouse in UN Plaza with so tiny a chance of a loot reward is downright ridiculous. If people want to burn a ton of energy for 1 gun,armor,melee,vehicle, etc, let them. It would make more of the missions more fun to complete, at least.

[Bruiser]

Boomer,

While we appreciate the update and having the b@lls to speak up about it, we would like to know why this was creating an unbalance in the game, There are plenty of other weapons with higher stats (i shall not name them with fear of them being nerfed as well) and nothing as yet has been done about them. If the item is there to be looted it must remain there surely. I have my total M4A1's but i feel i must stick up for the rest of the forum members who feel gutted and lost right now.

Funzio created the M4A1 weapon a long time ago and other items have come by our sights and disappeared just as quickly but nothing changed to the M4A1 then??? Please tell me something is in the pipeline for these players to look forward too or you WILL lose them for good. CHANGING THE GOAL POSTS MID GAME IS JUST NOT ON!!!

[Steve0]

As i see it, is that the weak stay weak and the strong stay strong.

[Alice]

I have my total M4A1's but i feel i must stick up for the rest of the forum members who feel gutted and lost right now.

Respect!

and "If the item is there to be looted it must remain there surely." is all I want to say, could not agree more

[617Pats]

Yeah, M4A1s have created a severe imbalance. So now when your at a higher level and their are people with 500 of them you are severely handicapped if you had been farming them at your own pace.

Does not make any sense at all. You abolished an item that everybody had an equal oppurtunity to collect. Ok with me I had quit any and all intentions of spending money on this game. I think many will get to a point (higher levels 150+) where they are getting robbed or attacked and will just quit.

[Bruiser]

CJ i will post now in the "Official" thread. You say you want to *improve* the game, leave what was already there and find alternative ways to improve it like create new weapons etc and more events which i know will happen in the future. The M4A1 has been there a looooong time and nothing was done about it when the "Mossberg" drama hit. I can understand that scenario as the weapon was twice the attach/def stats as the M4A1. What the community see here is that you have "Crate" weapons just above what the M4A1 is and you see a decline in sales from these crates as people can farm the M4A1 and save $$$. yes you are a business and need to make money so we can all play this game for a very long time BUT you are going the wrong way about it.

I am in the minority who have all my required M4A1's you are discouraging others from wanting to succeed in this game with your latest attempt to even out the playing field. As i suggested previously "Changing the goal posts mid game" is not right. Their must be a moral stand made by Funzio that what is there from the beginning must stand and work together in the future to make sure these mistakes don't happen again. You have gone the wrong way about this and i know i have support from others on this!!!

[emcee]

In my opinion this is incredibly unfair. Of course those with 500 M4s or close to max are going to spin things to their advantage as they have everything to gain. The argument about having invested time in the forum and reaping the rewards because their growing pains was immense and their contribution here is great. What about campers like Tramp Stamp and Duder who have contributed to this forum more than most. Is that fair?
The only viable option other than making all M4s rusty is to introduce buying M4s with respect or an equally powerful purchasable item. Any other action would be incredibly unfair for the vast majority of players who have been playing awhile or new to the game.

[Whoopdido1980]

I just don't understand what the imbalance was. Before, EVERYBODY could get 500 m4's if they wanted to put in the time. Now, those that already have them are much stronger as they will be the only players that have that many. Who's to say I wouldn't have put in the time to accomplish it. Maybe I would have and maybe I wouldn't have but at least I had the opportunity. Now I don't.

It would be like the world suddenly putting a "wealth cap" in place but not doing anything to the people that were already worth more than the cap. Say the most any person could ever be worth is $100,000 and prices for items would most likely change to reflect that. A house can't cost $200,000 if the most a person can be worth is $100,000. That's fine and dandy for all the people that weren't rich but what about those that were already rich before the cap was put in place? They're now at a HUGE advantage. The rich were at an advantage before but before the cap, people at least at the opportunity to become rich if they worked hard. Now, no matter how hard they work, they'll never be able to be worth more than $100,000. It's not fair to the new hard workers.

[AppleMacGuy]

In response to questions about other loot items: We're definitely combing through the database right now on the back end, looking for any other obvious situations where something is working differently in-game than it was designed to be doing. If we find this is the case we'll evaluate what to do on a case-by-case basis and err on the side of tweaking rather than removing, and make a post stating what we found/what we did. I don't see any other sweeping changes planned at all.

This is important: The goal wasn't and isn't to take away good farming opportunities, or to force people to buy gold. There should be a natural range of bad/okay/good items that can be obtained in-game. But if the effort isn't at least somewhat tied to the reward, or something is the *only* option or you're just plain wasting your time, that's a real problem. What we want above all is for people to have a reason to keep on improving (and playing the game), and if the best is too easy to obtain then that stops.

The upshot of this is it has us looking at the flow of the game and the farming opportunities more closely (for areas where that can be improved, even), and that will only improve the overall game in the end.

Again, we might have to make some smaller tweaks in the case that something's actually broken. We might not. Either way, we'll keep you guys in the loop.

This looks to like saying the DD will be terminated next...:(

[PhantomNine]

And what you may not realize (selectively?) is that many of us passed the word through our chats as to where we were getting the M4A1s. I'm sure a few of us read those posts and learned where to farm the M4A1.....so again we question the validity of that so called unfair advantage that so many of us had heard you mention.

[Santa]

I completely support Funzio on this one. Let's put it this way.

Think of it as a limited event. People who were there, got it. People who came in the middle, got some. People who came after didn't get any of it. It's all about the timing. Sure, the people who have 500 M4's are at an advantage. It's not their fault that they joined/started farming before you did. Again, it's all about the timing.

Here's another example. The lockbox event. The best reward, the diamond sig, was only available through either buying gold or lots of hard work and a little luck. Some people came after the lockbox event. Hey missed it. Oh well. Same with the M4's, with he only difference being it was unintentional.

[Swifty]

+1 Santa, what he said

[upsman_17]

CJ i will post now in the "Official" thread. You say you want to *improve* the game, leave what was already there and find alternative ways to improve it like create new weapons etc and more events which i know will happen in the future. The M4A1 has been there a looooong time and nothing was done about it when the "Mossberg" drama hit. I can understand that scenario as the weapon was twice the attach/def stats as the M4A1. What the community see here is that you have "Crate" weapons just above what the M4A1 is and you see a decline in sales from these crates as people can farm the M4A1 and save $$$. yes you are a business and need to make money so we can all play this game for a very long time BUT you are going the wrong way about it.

I am in the minority who have all my required M4A1's you are discouraging others from wanting to succeed in this game with your latest attempt to even out the playing field. As i suggested previously "Changing the goal posts mid game" is not right. Their must be a moral stand made by Funzio that what is there from the beginning must stand and work together in the future to make sure these mistakes don't happen again. You have gone the wrong way about this and i know i have support from others on this!!!

Spot on. I'm definately not as furious as I would've been if they had completely taken away all the M4's I had already farmed but I just have a hard time believing it took them so long to recognize/fix something that was there for so long. The stats were posted all over the forums everywhere at all times so much so that it became a running joke "we need more m4 threads". This was hardly a secret. Call it what it is, a pure money decision and I'll get it. Just don't try and convince me that the game could not continue with the m4a1.
All in all, I still was able to get 230 of them. I was almost halfway, so I'm better off than many, not as good as some. I'm a few levels away from farming DD's. If I save up the 15 mil and they nerd that a week or so into it that will be ggd end and I'll quit.

[AppleMacGuy]

CJ i will post now in the "Official" thread. You say you want to *improve* the game, leave what was already there and find alternative ways to improve it like create new weapons etc and more events which i know will happen in the future. The M4A1 has been there a looooong time and nothing was done about it when the "Mossberg" drama hit. I can understand that scenario as the weapon was twice the attach/def stats as the M4A1. What the community see here is that you have "Crate" weapons just above what the M4A1 is and you see a decline in sales from these crates as people can farm the M4A1 and save $$$. yes you are a business and need to make money so we can all play this game for a very long time BUT you are going the wrong way about it.

I am in the minority who have all my required M4A1's you are discouraging others from wanting to succeed in this game with your latest attempt to even out the playing field. As i suggested previously "Changing the goal posts mid game" is not right. Their must be a moral stand made by Funzio that what is there from the beginning must stand and work together in the future to make sure these mistakes don't happen again. You have gone the wrong way about this and i know i have support from others on this!!!

+1 I agree wholeheartedly.

IMO there is a real lack of engagement by Funzio with the community especially over massive issues like this one. It seems that despite the fact that we (at least anyone who ever bought gold) are paying the salaries of Funzio employees the least that could be done in return is to solicit some feedback before these kinds of sweeping changes are made. I think they call it Respect or something like that...

[upsman_17]

Nerf the DD's that is. Stupid auto correct.

[emcee]

CJ i will post now in the "Official" thread. You say you want to *improve* the game, leave what was already there and find alternative ways to improve it like create new weapons etc and more events which i know will happen in the future. The M4A1 has been there a looooong time and nothing was done about it when the "Mossberg" drama hit. I can understand that scenario as the weapon was twice the attach/def stats as the M4A1. What the community see here is that you have "Crate" weapons just above what the M4A1 is and you see a decline in sales from these crates as people can farm the M4A1 and save $$$. yes you are a business and need to make money so we can all play this game for a very long time BUT you are going the wrong way about it.

I am in the minority who have all my required M4A1's you are discouraging others from wanting to succeed in this game with your latest attempt to even out the playing field. As i suggested previously "Changing the goal posts mid game" is not right. Their must be a moral stand made by Funzio that what is there from the beginning must stand and work together in the future to make sure these mistakes don't happen again. You have gone the wrong way about this and i know i have support from others on this!!!

+100

You have my support on this one.

[Bruiser]

I think they call it Respect or something like that...

Im thinking Dis *Respect* is how i feel

[epicrecipe]

@Santa - farming M4s for MONTHS is not quite the same as the lockbox event. Not only is there a massive time variance, but this amounted to a small cache of weapons and we can expect more lockbox events in the future to even the score.

[Spoon86]

I quit.

I am at a serious disadvantage against someone with 500 M4A1's since I only started farming them not to long ago.

Why was it nurfed to promote balance when M4A1's use to be attainable by anyone, Now the minority of players that already have 500 of them have a HUGE advantage against me and most other players.

I refuse to by gold bars to level the playing field against the players that already farmed 500 of them, I will not play into Funzio's sinister schemes.

[epicrecipe]

Funzio has a responsibility to keep the game fair - not to "balance" a game in motion. Savvy players should be encouraged to get the edge they need to succeed. I've spend $100s RM to gain some of that edge, but as long as Funzio believes a player's edge constitutes an unfair balance, and as long as I'm facing an M4 disadvantage in future levels, I'll join the chorus of gold players that won't spend anymore RM.

Funzio should caution against reduced this error to a typo. The M4 has long been promoted in their own forums as an important strategic benefit and there has been collectively days spent on front-end reverse engineering and strategic development to gain the M4 edge. Allowing this to go "uncorrected" for so long speaks to the lack of commitment to the forum community, which I trust is on the mend given this renewed effort of engagement. (Thank you. Sincerely.)

The game is wonderfully complex and entertaining. We've seen personal goals like farming emerge beyond designed goals like leveling, missions and achievements. Given the lead times required for economy development, these achievements take weeks and months of player investment, a tedious undertaking where a player's time investment should not be dismissed.

The question remains: How has farming the M4s introduced a "drastic" imbalance when A) this strategy is available to all and B) is well known by those who sought it? Funzio should be commended for it's sense of duty to non-forum players, don't forum players merit the same courtesy? And why not consider in-game messaging alternatives to nerfing that don't harm those who've enjoyed the edge? Examples:
1. Promote the forum community as a source of tips and insight (you'll need to continue to support it).
2. Introduce more advanced game tips such as searching for select weapons.
3. Promote the idea of farming in a mission. Players are welcome to adopt this strategy or disregard.
4. Boost the 20/22 M4 drop rate so more people can acquire them. Or tighten it further and introduce a lesser weapon with a higher drop rate. This uproar is a testament to the desire for farming to continue to be a viable strategy.

Thank you for admitting the goof. The game is incredibly dynamic; it happens. Going forward, this game is going to lose interest quickly without some modicum of predictability. Rather than attempt to "balance" what has long been done, I urge you to restore the M4 as a farmable weapon and either consider alternate means to make this particular edge known or be generous with comparable rewards for new time investments.

[erik]

There is no spoon

[617Pats]

Funzio should just change the complete stats of weapon, like they did for the Mossberg. This would bring balance. To those who put the time into getting them, too bad. I feel this is equivalent to the statements of those who support this change and refer to farming M4s as a "limited event".

SCRAP THE STATS! (I have 300 of them but I think it is only fair to all players)

[Swifty]

@617Pats

I can live with that.

[Gaming Will]

Yeah, M4A1s have created a severe imbalance. So now when your at a higher level and their are people with 500 of them you are severely handicapped if you had been farming them at your own pace.

Does not make any sense at all. You abolished an item that everybody had an equal oppurtunity to collect. Ok with me I had quit any and all intentions of spending money on this game. I think many will get to a point (higher levels 150+) where they are getting robbed or attacked and will just quit.

I agree with this. Kind of makes me want to quit now because why put in the time now when I know I'm only going to get robbed and killed in the future unless I want to spend real money for gold items?

[Bruiser]

Funzio should just change the complete stats of weapon, like they did for the Mossberg. This would bring balance. To those who put the time into getting them, too bad. I feel this is equivalent to the statements of those who support this change and refer to farming M4s as a "limited event".

SCRAP THE STATS! (I have 300 of them but I think it is only fair to all players)

Sorry Pats but this is a ridiculous statement. Your telling me you would have farmed 300 M4A1's at the reduced stats??? I'm thinking the answer would be NO, therefore we wasted time and enery to get the stats we so deserve, and everyone deserves them. Bring it back and work on other issues, This I'm afraid isn't one of them

[CJ54]

Spot on. I'm definately not as furious as I would've been if they had completely taken away all the M4's I had already farmed but I just have a hard time believing it took them so long to recognize/fix something that was there for so long. The stats were posted all over the forums everywhere at all times so much so that it became a running joke "we need more m4 threads". This was hardly a secret. Call it what it is, a pure money decision and I'll get it.

If you guys want to keep calling me a liar, I won't stop you. There's no concrete proof I can give you, so feel free to believe what you like.

But it won't change the fact that that's what happened. We couldn't see the actual stats properly, or we would have done something about it. You think it was an intentional decision that an item with stats similar to a *promotional item* would drop easily and repeatedly in the junkyard? Why would we do that intentionally in the first place? So that we could yank the rug out months later and upset a whole bunch of people? That's not the best strategy in regards to anything, is it?

This is important: it wasn't the stats on the item. It was that if you compare the stats to the amount of juice needed to get those stats, you have something with a ridiculously better ratio than everything else is the game.

Moving on to the more constructive end of things, though. Here's what Boomer and I are going to be doing for the next little bit. We're going to be watching the forums and reporting feedback about how the game changes for people as a result of this. I've already added Joeycool and Walter's statements about this revealing the need for better higher-level items to keep what were the post-M4-A1 levels from getting stale. And the general need for a "something to do" in regards to farming.

[Spoon86]

Sorry Pats but this is a ridiculous statement. Your telling me you would have farmed 300 M4A1's at the reduced stats??? I'm thinking the answer would be NO, therefore we wasted time and enery to get the stats we so deserve, and everyone deserves them. Bring it back and work on other issues, This I'm afraid isn't one of them
So players that farmed a bugged weapon should be able to keep them just because they "Time and Energy" to get them?
Do you no how unfair that is to players that don't have them and wont be able to get them?

[epicrecipe]

In their wisdom, Funzio didn't nerf the M4 because they recognize the real time invested to date. Players would certainly quit in protest. Not just CC, but Funzio as a brand.

This is distinct from the Mossburgs too because they caught that 'imbalance' in a matter of a few days and made personal concessions to individual players where appropriate.

The only fair option at this point is to restore the M4s or something comparable as farmable weapons and take steps to ensure this strategy remains discoverable by all players.

[617Pats]

Sorry Pats but this is a ridiculous statement. Your telling me you would have farmed 300 M4A1's at the reduced stats??? I'm thinking the answer would be NO, therefore we wasted time and enery to get the stats we so deserve, and everyone deserves them. Bring it back and work on other issues, This I'm afraid isn't one of them

I somewhat agree. Why should they bring it back? They should have just left it alone. They are making a choice to make a change in the game that effects people differently based on the inventory of M4s. You should be fair to everyone. I understand that people spent time and energy on farming them but you cannot say others would not have done the same. Therefore Funzio has taken the oppurtunity from them. I dont like people who are blaming others of not haven taken advantage of the time to farm them when they could. If some just downloaded the app yesterday they should at least have a chance of being capable of getting stronger like others. They might have worked and put the time and energy into looting them (in the future). Reward Work, I agree but don't dismiss others equality of doing the same.

[Ghost818]

Moving on to the more constructive end of things, though. Here's what Boomer and I are going to be doing for the next little bit. We're going to be watching the forums and reporting feedback about how the game changes for people as a result of this. I've already added Joeycool and Walter's statements about this revealing the need for better higher-level items to keep what were the post-M4-A1 levels from getting stale. And the general need for a "something to do" in regards to farming. I like this. Thank you to CJ,Boomer and everyone else involved

[Swifty]

+1 Ghost, what he said

[Spoon86]

Nerf the existing M4A1.
Unless it goes back to the way it was the people that haven't farmed them will always be at a disadvantage even if there is alternative ways to obtain them.

[downtownshuter]

I mostly just read the forum but this is a HUGE part of the game so I'd like to contribute my opinion on the matter.

Hopefully this thread is still being read by the devs. CJ asked for this whole discussion to take place in one thread so I am posting here rather than in the suggestion section even though this is a suggestion.

OK so I don't want to argue forever about what Funzio should have done (it's done with, and if they changed it again that would only make things worse), I would rather suggest how they can fix it. The big (and understandable) complaint is that this change has created a massive gap between those who already farmed 500 M4s and everyone else. The solution IMO is to give us a new gun that is still very strong and worth farming, but is not "an unintentinally overpowered weapon".

I suggest they use some combination of three things in creating this new gun:
Reduce the stats of the new item slightly compared to the M4
Give the farming location a high-ish buy in
Reduce the drop rate slightly (may not be necessary depending on how the first two are handled).

My personal suggestion would be to make the new gun approx 16 att, 20 def with a $10MM buy in, and lower the drop rate by about 10%.

Why this is a good solution IMO:
-Future players can still get stats that compete with the older players who have M4s. The total attack/defense difference between M4s and Rusty M4s is just too big to give the older players that large of a permanent advantage (no player should have a ~5000 pt attack/defense advantage based on Funzio's "typo"). This makes that difference smaller.
-Older players who first found this advantage and already spent time/energy farming the M4s will still maintain some permanent advantage over other players.
-Keeping the defense score of the new item at 20 still makes it the "best in breed" free defense gun. This is very important to me because I don't want to farm hundreds of guns that I will eventually replace with RPGs or cash items. I believe the M4 was the only free and repeatably attainable item that was "best in breed" for any stat across all categories of weapons.
-Adding a buy in and a high level unlock means the new gun is no longer "unintentionally" strong. The item's strength would be justified by the extensive work required to unlock it, on top of the time/energy required to farm them. This is also the basis for my suggestion to lower the drop rate slightly. A lower drop rate helps justify the new gun's high stats. However, it is also critical that the new drop rate still allows new players to accumulate 500 of them in a reasonable amount of time. I think most players got about 4 M4s/day. If you could accumulate the new item at 3.5/day I think that would be fair.

Sorry I know that was long but I wanted to explain myself fully. I want to stress once again that I think there needs to be at least one item that can be farmed that is "best in breed". Everything else eventually becomes useless.

Thanks Funzio for reading (if you did) and for maintaining this awesome game.

[epicrecipe]

Here's what Boomer and I are going to be doing for the next little bit. We're going to be watching the forums and reporting feedback about how the game changes for people as a result of this.

This seems like something that should be worked out in beta, not where people pay for in-game assets.

I get that Funzio takes issue with rapid returns on time invested. What I don't understand is why Funzio maintains the need to adjust that downward in a way that impedes game progress when the rule had applied to everyone.

This is important: we can't develop game strategies if Funzio's expressed role is to intervene when results don't match there (unknown) notion of fairness vis-a-vis "balance." People naturally avoid volatility and are prone to invest time and money in stable, predictable environments.

[Nicholost]

I've already added Joeycool and Walter's statements about this revealing the need for better higher-level items to keep what were the post-M4-A1 levels from getting stale. And the general need for a "something to do" in regards to farming.

This made me :D. I <3 loot. Well done, Funzio. I actually feel like you guys are listening to us. I mean, technically, we are the largest community of Crime City software testers available. When areas to improve upon are found by us, it's not because we were pouring through code and "caught" something, it's because we've beat on it for months and saw an opprotunity for improvement.

And just to be clear, so the devs don't feel as if some of the more recent opinions are shared by all CC members, I am pleased with how Funzio handled this. I think everyone can see that there's no clear way out on this one; regardless of what they choose, one or more groups are going to be upset. However, I really do believe they chose the best option. Thank you again, Funzio. I have enjoyed your participation in this thread, and look forward to seeing your posts and feedback in threads to come.

[Swearengen]

All the input and communication with Funzio is great. Adding new drop items for higher levels is great, killing the M4 was dumb, without replacing it with an equal item - being this is mid game. So folks under 120+ lvl are left in a bind, as they don't have a great alternative items to deal with gold buyers or those who already got the 500 M4's. Don't get me wrong, I understand gold buyers are spendng real money so they get an advantage but the larger community of non-gold buyers need a chance to hang in there, right?

[TemplarX]

Since M4A1s are non consumable, we could no longer beat those who already had a lot of M4A1, UNLESS we buy gold.
I think funzio's ultimate goal for this downgrade is to make money, so stop claiming "imbalance" please.
++1. I couldnt have said it better

[erik]

This is important: it wasn't the stats on the item. It was that if you compare the stats to the amount of juice needed to get those stats, you have something with a ridiculously better ratio than everything else is the game.

Moving on to the more constructive end of things, though. Here's what Boomer and I are going to be doing for the next little bit. We're going to be watching the forums and reporting feedback about how the game changes for people as a result of this. I've already added Joeycool and Walter's statements about this revealing the need for better higher-level items to keep what were the post-M4-A1 levels from getting stale. And the general need for a "something to do" in regards to farming.

Agree, and great to hear.

I posted earlier that I think this gun could certainly exist and meet balancing issues were it released some place above 100.

JC and Walter are spot on... certain types of players need a good farm that is appropriate to their level + remains below at least 1 stat of best RP weapon - has good drop rate, but a challenge to attain by level/cash - DD is a great example.

Also to consider in this exercise should be PVP drops above 150-165. At 164, I have bought 0 cash items to improve stats, and yet, over the last 10 levels, I reached a place where receive 0 increase from any item save Police Truck (great, thoughtful item), and Police Vest (very easily to replace). This takes a lot of the excitement out of PVP as JC said. I would be happy for something with modest increases, or perhaps weighted to one side of the A/D spectrum.

Regardless, thoughtful item additions that complement existing RP items or accessible items to fill holes for the dedicated gamer keep the experience interesting.

[Ghost818]

This made me :D. I <3 loot. Well done, Funzio. I actually feel like you guys are listening to us. I mean, technically, we are the largest community of Crime City software testers available. When areas to improve upon are found by us, it's not because we were pouring through code and "caught" something, it's because we've beat on it for months and saw an opprotunity for improvement.

And just to be clear, so the devs don't feel as if some of the more recent opinions are shared by all CC members, I am pleased with how Funzio handled this. I think everyone can see that there's no clear way out on this one; regardless of what they choose, one or more groups are going to be upset. However, I really do believe they chose the best option. Thank you again, Funzio. I have enjoyed your participation in this thread, and look forward to seeing your posts and feedback in threads to come.
+1, I liked this so much I'm gonna give you one of my invisibility cloaks.

[CounterSniper]

So players that farmed a bugged weapon should be able to keep them just because they "Time and Energy" to get them?
Do you no how unfair that is to players that don't have them and wont be able to get them?

Or to the players that spent plenty of time and energy and altered their gameplay style and strategies to try and get them and wasn't as lucky with the drop rates.

[epicrecipe]

I think everyone can see that there's no clear way out on this one; regardless of what they choose, one or more groups are going to be upset. However, I really do believe they chose the best option.

The clear answer is within your own post: their 'fix' upset everyone except those who farmed their nut, so the clear way out is to restore the farmable M4s or something comparable. Then fix what's broken via an amiable solution for all. Several alternatives have been put forth here.

Otherwise, people will stop paying and eventually stop playing because we cannot effectively strategize an edge in an environment that constantly strives for balanced outcomes.

[Plux]

I'm always fully in favour of Funzio's changes and would suggest Funzio restrict the number of specific items lootable to 10 on any particular Map. Pier 13's middle crane had the highest ratio of M4 farming, hence my fast 333 M4A1's.
I'm farming Double Deckers now, but won't mind if they become Rusty Double Deckers, I have the in-game income to adapt now. Well done Funzio, I agree with the adjustment to Rusty M4's!

Att 24,680 (+2,000 in last 4 days)
Def 32,260 (+3,000 in last 4 days)
Income $750,000 per hr!
"Income is Victory, MUI"

[TemplarX]

I am surprised that people actually buy into stories told by big corporates -- M4A1 is so central to the game, but they missed it for months?? Come on! ; mossberg was nerfed because it caused imbalance, didn't they not learn?? ; oh and funzio is so compassionate and considerate because they did not reduce the stats for old M4a1 in people's inventory, like they did for mossberg, thank you so much for being so enlightened!

If funzio is so concerned about imbalance, they would have had months to work on producing non-gold weapons which are worth buying. There are huge gaps, as big as an elephant's spread, between the best of cash weapons and those from respect, farming or gold. And the idea is to continue to suppress cash weapons (and now farming ones), so as to limit the options to respect and ultimately to gold ones.

If truly Funzio's motivation is to address whatever perceived imbalance, then surely the effort should be channelled to giving us some decent non-gold alternatives. Until that's done, I choose to belief that all these mid-game drastic changes are just motivated by desires to milk the game for quick profits.

[Crime City Mark]

This is important: we can't develop game strategies if Funzio's expressed role is to intervene when results don't match there (unknown) notion of fairness vis-a-vis "balance." People naturally avoid volatility and are prone to invest time and money in stable, predictable environments.

Here's the problem with that. The game will always be in flux. This is not a box game. New stuff will be added all the time. Balancing will take place. We have to juggle thousands of things against each other while still being able to add content to keep things fresh.

Your strategies will just have to alter based on current events.

[Bruiser]

So players that farmed a bugged weapon should be able to keep them just because they "Time and Energy" to get them?
Do you no how unfair that is to players that don't have them and wont be able to get them?

I did say everyone deserves them and i want them back Spoon. Remember i am way done on the M4A1 farming, i want everyone to have the opportunity that we had.

[Steve0]

Sooo Cj and Mark what about the missing originals?

[Bruiser]

CJ,

You say you have put your last post up in this official thread but what you have failed to answer was the question in regards to DD's. Can you inform the community and put their minds at ease that they don't waste their 15mill investment and alot of time and energy into farming DD's only for another "inbalance" to arise and be nerfed. This should be a simple statement that would be a resolution to this fiasco...

[Crime City Mark]

Sooo Cj and Mark what about the missing originals?

Anyone who had missing M4 A1s that submitted a ticket through our support system should have been given them. If you haven't, please post your ticket number in this thread.

[Crime City Mark]

CJ,

You say you have put your last post up in this official thread but what you have failed to answer was the question in regards to DD's. Can you inform the community and put their minds at ease that they don't waste their 15mill investment and alot of time and energy into farming DD's only for another "inbalance" to arise and be nerfed. This should be a simple statement that would be a resolution to this fiasco...

He hasn't answered that because our team is still looking into that item. When we know for sure we'll update.

[Bruiser]

He hasn't answered that because our team is still looking into that item. When we know for sure we'll update.

Scary thought for those just about to invest or just started...

[Steve0]

61311 Thanks

[Crime City Mark]

61311 Thanks

Our CS Manager, J, is online right now answering these. Check your e-mail.

[Steve0]

Thanks very mutch I am looking forward for the new event.

[DiscoDoc]

Giving an overpowered item to some people and leaving others stranded is worse than just leaving it in the game. You can see the weapon in inventories so it's not like the problem is just going to go away. A few hundred of "x" item is going to get noticed. So now new players have to compete with gold buyers and anyone that has had this giant leg up? You would literally have to spend hundreds of dollars to gain this advantage back.

I've only got 10 bucks into the game and I just started lingering around here about a month ago, but this was enough to get me to finally register and say something. there is a fine line between allowing people to pay to be better and allowing your gravy train to at least compete. Many have speculated that you get most of your money from big gold spenders, but I highly doubt that is the case. I imagine those of us that do the occasional clicks and pay the 10 bucks here and there are your bread and butter.

Now I have to change my review. First time I have ever done that. Not that anyone cares. Ugh... what a waste of time this has become.

On the plus side my wife will be happy to have some of my free time back. Well, maybe not. I do have other games that need attention :).

[epicrecipe]

@ccmark - Of course. I've said elsewhere that tactical lead times measured in weeks and months do not allow us to pivot easily. For example, I just dropped $10MM on a hood expansion that in hindsight would have been better applied toward farming DDs before those drops get nerfed. I have a decent economy, but it's going to take me a full week to adjust. Said another way, I burned a week pursuing a wrong course I could not reasonably have foreseen.

I don't think anticipating Funzio game mechanics should be part of the game; it deviates from the script and blurs our ability to observe trends and adapt. And to be clear, this wasn't a mild game tweak that improved gameplay for everyone - The most popular weapon in the game just became heavily lopsided to benefit a few and the entire benefit of farming has been thrown into question.

The very fact that you need to 'balance' outcomes makes my point about the futility of strategic planning.

[CounterSniper]

I'm always fully in favour of Funzio's changes and would suggest Funzio restrict the number of specific items lootable to 10 on any particular Map. Pier 13's middle crane had the highest ratio of M4 farming, hence my fast 333 M4A1's.
I'm farming Double Deckers now, but won't mind if they become Rusty Double Deckers, I have the in-game income to adapt now. Well done Funzio, I agree with the adjustment to Rusty M4's!

Att 24,680 (+2,000 in last 4 days)
Def 32,260 (+3,000 in last 4 days)
Income $750,000 per hr!
"Income is Victory, MUI"


How magnanimous. You got yours and are able to adapt financially so screw everyone else.

Pathetic!

[Jill]

I'm late to the thread but everything AIice, Bruiser and many other have said I support 100%. It is noticeable the majority of players who have their quota of MA's are backing Funzio here and those like me who have also invested their time and energies into farming and haven't got to their target are totally against the actions that have been taken. The have's and have nots.
The imbalance is now here and I really cannot see how this can be balanced fairly.

Also your timing of your St Patricks Day Wall Safe event no doubt was planned hoping to take the heat out of the forum, 'give them something else to talk about" is a sort of insult as well.

Speak to us, tell us what's your plans, ask for our advise, stop just ignoring us ..... And bring the game back to where it was.....

[Alice]

Speak to us, tell us what's your plans, ask for our advise, stop just ignoring us ..... And bring the game back to where it was.....

In addition, a good game should show some concern to players, not just make money.

[CounterSniper]

I'm late to the thread but everything AIice, Bruiser and many other have said I support 100%. It is noticeable the majority of players who have their quota of MA's are backing Funzio here and those like me who have also invested their time and energies into farming and haven't got to their target are totally against the actions that have been taken. The have's and have nots.
The imbalance is now here and I really cannot see how this can be balanced fairly.

Also your timing of your St Patricks Day Wall Safe event no doubt was planned hoping to take the heat out of the forum, 'give them something else to talk about" is a sort of insult as well.

Speak to us, tell us what's your plans, ask for our advise, stop just ignoring us ..... And bring the game back to where it was.....

Even this event is a bitter pill cuz they jacked up the timer reset and wall safe open fee to 15 gold. That really reinforces in my mind that they only care about maximizing profits, customer service or PR be damned.

In addition it's not even a 7 day event, yet MW gets a 10 day event.

[Bruiser]

In addition it's not even a 7 day event, yet MW gets a 10 day event.

exactly, 6 days 4 hrs is not a week in anyones book

[CJ54]

Keep the event discussion in the event thread, please.

[Dreno33]

Cj you seem frustrated lol. sorry if we all seem... "rebellious" tough times with the changes. and my thread you just closed. never knew there were discussions of this before. if not stickied, i doubt i should've just known. no? anyways, hope ur night gets better(: don't work too hard ;) haha

[thisisdream]

Honestly, I didn't see any imbalance for the original M4A1, since anyone could manage up to 500.

It is changing drop rate or nerfing actually that caused unfair. While changing drop rate only makes the game more changeling, rust it only cause permanent imbalance. If that's what funzio really intended.

Since M4A1s are non consumable, we could no longer beat those who already had a lot of M4A1, UNLESS we buy gold.

I think funzio's ultimate goal for this downgrade is to make money, so stop claiming "imbalance" please.

I second that, this is now forever imbalance. They should change all m4 gun to the same stats. They took their time and effort to farm ma4 gun, so are we? From now on we are going to waste time and effort to farms RUSTY M4. So how is this going to be fair?

[COHagan23]

Shenanigans! If Funzio was going to put their finger on the scale and adjust the M4A1 for the sake of game "balance" they should have had the balls to nerf all of them. Grandfathering the already farmed M4s creates a permanent imbalance that gives an advantage to players who have already farmed the "retired" M4A1 that subsequent players will never have an opportunity to compensate for. I've already got mine and it is what it is... but what it is isn't fair or balancing.

[ryusho]

Just my 2 cents on this.

m4a1 remains unchanged at 20/22, continues dropping as per normal:
Players who farmed alot of them are happy.
Players about to farm alot of them are happy.
Players who have no idea about this m4a1 weapon get attacked by those who have them so become unhappy.
Funzio VERY UNHAPPY cause it unbalances the game.

m4a1 remains unchanged at 20/22, drops change to rusty m4a1:
Players who farmed alot of them are happy.
Players about to farm alot of them are VERY UNHAPPY.
Players who have no idea about m4a1 weapon gets attacked by players with original m4a1 become unhappy (smaller number though cos not as many players holding alot). Become VERY UNHAPPY after realisation that they cannot get the old m4a1 anymore.
Funzio happy as it balances the game.

m4a1 nerfed to rusty m4a1:
Players who farmed alot of them VERY UNHAPPY as they spent time and effort to get them at their old stats.
Players about to farm alot of them unsure about their new strategy next. no feelings.
Players unaware of the m4a1 goes about happily with the way they play the game.
Funzio happy they balanced the game, unhappy that they will potentially lose core players who farmed alot of them.

Potential solution???
m4a1 nerfed to rusty m4a1... BUT! Players with old m4a1 get an exchange, i.e. those with 1-10 m4a1 exchange them for special item A, 11-50 m4a1 exchange for special item B, 51-100 m4a1 exchange for special item C, and so on all the way to 500.

Players with alot of m4a1 slightly unhappy, but happy they got something special for their time and effort.
Players about to farm m4a1 but have some already still happy they get something at least.
Players with nothing about to farm are not so happy cos they don't get an opportunity to farm, but well they didn't spend effort farming right?
Players who have no clue about m4a1 remain happily clueless.
Funzio happy they balanced the game.

Conclusion? Thoughts? Maybe something Funzio can consider?

[CounterSniper]

I second that, this is now forever imbalance. They should change all m4 gun to the same stats. They took their time and effort to farm ma4 gun, so are we? From now on we are going to waste time and effort to farms RUSTY M4. So how is this going to be fair?

+1


Shenanigans! If Funzio was going to put their finger on the scale and adjust the M4A1 for the sake of game "balance" they should have had the balls to nerf all of them. Grandfathering the already farmed M4s creates a permanent imbalance that gives an advantage to players who have already farmed the "retired" M4A1 that subsequent players will never have an opportunity to compensate for. I've already got mine and it is what it is... but what it is isn't fair or balancing.

+1

I guess we have to cut them some slack, it's the best line of BS they could muster up under the circumstances.

[Alice]

m4a1 nerfed to rusty m4a1... BUT! Players with old m4a1 get an exchange, i.e. those with 1-10 m4a1 exchange them for special item A, 11-50 m4a1 exchange for special item B, 51-100 m4a1 exchange for special item C, and so on all the way to 500.

Good idea, feels like a missing event instead, least pain

[Behzat]

Funzio now u think uve found a fair way about the M4A1s????This is much worse decision than ur nerfing the drop rates.How can u think it s fair this way?Many players have tons of M4A1s!!!!what about the new players or the players who started to farm them new???!!!!if you didnt do anything about these weapons if u didnt nerf the drop rates or if u didnt create useless rusty m4s that would be fair!because everyone could farm and get them and this would be fair but u demolished the fair system and make an update which is great for old farmers but so unfair for the new ones!if everyone could get them if u didnt do any changes about this that would be fair!!!!!!!!Not this one!you wouldnt do anything about m4s each time u spoil the game with ur unfair decisions more!Dont change the M4 system or delete them all if u want to be fair to every player but now you are not!!!!i have 77 of them and i can accept to loose them all if the game will be equally fair to everyone but this is not fair while there are many players who have tons of them!

[mephisto]

Funzio, just some suggestions:

1) Original M4A1s and stats remains, but drop rate to decrease as the number of M4A1s in players' inventory goes up. This give players a change to catch up.

2) Introduce other locations to farm the original M4A1s at higher level, u can also put in high buy-in cost.

Everyone should be happy and players could eventually catch up in stats as they level up. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Nicholost]

Now I understand why Funzio never made a presence here. When they do show up, they get blasted by emotion-fueled posters about how bad they are doing. I wouldn't show up either. Funzio, don't let this ruin your good start. I would rather you keep us in the loop than have radio silence.

And just so the naysayers know, there really are two M4A1s on the item list; ID 95 and ID 261. Same name, wildly different stats. 95 is 7/11 while 261 is 20/22. I can definitely see how the wrong IDs were assigned in the item map. While I do not think this should have made it to production, I know first hand that these things do. Integration-testing this (QA) would require someone hitting a drop location for every item ID. Even with a large, dedicated test staff, that is a huge undertaking.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?pli=1&hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AgEHrvnoijXudHFVU2RxYUQzYXYtOURRd0d3M1hVR2c&type=view&gid=3&f=true&colid0=2&filterstr0=M4%20A1&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250

[thisisdream]

I don't know who is the smart guy who proposed this idea. This changes totally destroy the balance of this game.

Simplely put, basically there are two major group of players in the game. First group would be players who spent their time and energy to do research on forum and farm good items, another group are those who don't have much time to play this game so they spend money(gold) in order to stay competitive to the first group of people.

Now this change completely destroy the first group of players, and now the second group which is the gold buyers players don't need to keep spending their money buying gold in order to stay competitive. They just need to buy little gold then they are unbeatable already why would they buy more gold?

[CounterSniper]

You don't keep people in the loop after the fact. That's being left out of the loop.

Waiting till after everyone gets pissed is unacceptable and all your code-erific explanations on their behalf doesn't change that. For me it's more how they dealt with this from a customer service, PR point of view.

Most of this angst could have and should have been avoided by a conciliatory post beforehand.

Again, I'm not arguing what they did but how they handled it and what is says about the way they feel about their customers.

[mephisto]

Players who spent even more time and effort building up economy than players who just farm M4A1s dont deserved to be trashed by the latter, introduce high level gun with comparable or even higher stats to M4A1s.

Also you definitely need to introduce guns with stats higher than M4A1 soon to remedy this, dont let players wait too long. =)

[Dreno33]

Now I understand why Funzio never made a presence here. When they do show up, they get blasted by emotion-fueled posters about how bad they are doing. I wouldn't show up either. Funzio, don't let this ruin your good start. I would rather you keep us in the loop than have radio silence.

And just so the naysayers know, there really are two M4A1s on the item list; ID 95 and ID 261. Same name, wildly different stats. 95 is 7/11 while 261 is 20/22. I can definitely see how the wrong IDs were assigned in the item map. While I do not think this should have made it to production, I know first hand that these things do. Integration-testing this (QA) would require someone hitting a drop location for every item ID. Even with a large, dedicated test staff, that is a huge undertaking.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?pli=1&hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AgEHrvnoijXudHFVU2RxYUQzYXYtOURRd0d3M1hVR2c&type=view&gid=3&f=true&colid0=2&filterstr0=M4%20A1&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250

hey on ur link it says the two types of m4s are available for purchase for 150 and 140 respect points, where in the game do u see that option. cudnt find it. or am i reading it totally wrong?

[thisisdream]

Players who spent even more time and effort building up economy than players who just farm M4A1s dont deserved to be trashed by the latter, introduce high level gun with comparable or even higher stats to M4A1s.

Also you definitely need to introduce guns with stats higher than M4A1 soon to remedy this, dont let players wait too long. =)

I don't really see ur point here, farming m4 gun can also build economy up. Is like doing mission. I don't think u need to abandon economy growth in order to farm m4 gun.

[CounterSniper]

hey on ur link it says the two types of m4s are available for purchase for 150 and 140 respect points, where in the game do u see that option. cudnt find it. or am i reading it totally wrong?


Something else they "fixed".

[erik]

Agreed. Building the economy and farming M4s are not in conflict in any way.

[dudeman]

Now I understand why Funzio never made a presence here. When they do show up, they get blasted by emotion-fueled posters about how bad they are doing. I wouldn't show up either. Funzio, don't let this ruin your good start. I would rather you keep us in the loop than have radio silence.

The reason they don't receive a very warm welcome most of the time is because they often wait until **** hits the fan and everyone is already upset when they finally DO show up. The best way to prevent that from happening is to actually increase their forum presence and keep up with the latest community buzz.

Funzio effectively leaves themselves out of the loop by not making more of an effort at community involvement on the forum.

They can claim all they like that there were oversights, but the oversight was entirely on their end. The M4A1 was not a secret, and it had been one of the most widely discussed topics on the forum for MONTHS. To claim an oversight in this matter automatically implies that the forum is irrelevant to Funzio, and therefore so are the forum members. Now, this may be totally untrue, and I hope it is, but it's difficult to read it any other way.

I already said this, but I feel it deserves repeating: The existence of the forum is not a secret either. I was not told about the forum and I didn't find it on Google either. The first place I ever saw mention of the forum was in the game itself. It can be found somewhere in the help section, either under FAQs or Support, I forget which at the moment. There, players are told to visit the forum to get involved with the community and find out about the latest tips, etc. The web address is even provided, although I cannot recall if it's a link. Surely you must be able to copy/paste.

My point here is that you can't claim something was an "unfair imbalance" because it was information available only to those who visit the forum. Everyone has access to the forum. Everyone playing the game has the web address provided to them in the menu. Not visiting the forum is a personal choice whether it be due to laziness, carelessness, or negligence. Actively seeking out the available tips given by players who have "been there, done that" should provide an advantage over players who do not make that same effort.

You snooze, you lose. Right?

[CounterSniper]

@dudeman

I just said basically the same thing, I'm starting to think some of these posters are funzio fanboy plants who get free gold for each post they make in defense of the status quo.

[Jill]

@Dudeman

Totally agree with you

[Nudie]

My suggestion. Keep/bring back the shiny M4. Move the drop location to a higher level. Reduce the drop rate. Increase the buy in rate. Now everyone has a chance to catch up but it is a more "premium" item.

[mongorie]

talks about severe imbalance .. *cough* 45Gold crates *cough*
without m4s what are newish players supposed to farm then?

[i need muney]

Farm gold.

[Bashing]

Hi, I'm Brashing and I'm a non gold spender. I have farmed 158 M1A1 weps.

Lots of interest in this OP wep post. Two sides:
A: you agree with keeping the pre-farmed, or
B: you agree that the game will now be unbalanced.

Let me guess that A ppl have farmed a substantial amount of weps and B's haven't. A's get to keep the OP wep still? Even idiots would know that this disadvantages nubes.

M1A1 OP? For drop weps certainly. What about respect weps? As a category no, but in general (non-gold) weps yes.

Unless we find other worthwhile exploits, I'll be farming respect orrr not doing anything except looting my own buildings and not lvling (hot dawg that sure sounds like fun!)

If you're a seasoned MMORPG campaigner, you'll have experienced both sides. Across the board wep rebalancing disadvantages the seasoned campaigner, but it creates a more even playing field (you wealthy gold spenders excluded:).

So we've read the forums and exploited loopholes. Yay for us. Finding exploits, sharing them and lording it over the noobs gives us feeling of leet sweetness. "i spit on your loot attempt noob! MWAHahah!"

Funzio, let the small imbalances through for us dedicated and engaged enough to be Funzio Forum Fans. (and I promise I'll think about finally spending money on you;).

Have fun fellas!

[Hank]

I like the decision the developers made. The M4A1 was way over powered and too easy to get.
People say it took lots of effort to farm them. But really you click on the same building over and over
until they drop. Really, it was a cheap way to get high stats is all. i prefer the old fashioned way to play
this game, wherein you build a hood and buy weapons with cash and respect. Im for anything that
encourages people to play the game the way it was meant to be played.

[cookies]

By removing the option to aquire the item you have created a permanent imbalance between those that already have the item in large quantities vs. those which do not.
Unless this change is reversed, you have lost me as a paying customer.

Speaking of 'imbalances' i find it amusing that M4A1 gets nerfed, and in the same breath you are introducing an event item that will cause a major economical advantage for those that are lucky enough to get the final item from the wall safe event.

I understand the need to have good item rewards to draw people to spend gold on the event, but 'Green Piece' is the single most powerful item in the game and it is a reward for a short term luck based event.

[itzkakarot]

To be honest, if they removed or nerfed M4s in people's inventories, they would've guaranteed players leaving the game. Those of us still looting M4s at least now haven't wasted all of that time and can find a new looting strategy (which hopefully Funzio will help reveal).

Was I pissed when I saw the first rusty drop today? Of course. I still need about 200 M4s. But such is life, players who start a game early on in its lifecycle always have a certain advantage, you can't really blame Funzio or the players for that.

It was good while it lasted. I just hope Funzio opens the doors for some more diversity, otherwise its back to camping for me...

[AppleMacGuy]

By removing the option to aquire the item you have created a permanent imbalance between those that already have the item in large quantities vs. those which do not.
Unless this change is reversed, you have lost me as a paying customer.

Speaking of 'imbalances' i find it amusing that M4A1 gets nerfed, and in the same breath you are introducing an event item that will cause a major economical advantage for those that are lucky enough to get the final item from the wall safe event.

I understand the need to have good item rewards to draw people to spend gold on the event, but 'Green Piece' is the single most powerful item in the game and it is a reward for a short term luck based event.

EDIT: I've started a new thread to discuss the implications of the end prizes for the events:

http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?21756-Implications-of-Events-and-the-End-Prize-Awarded

[snowstockholm]

think about three possible case:

1. nuke all M4A1: old players exit
2. nuke all future M4A1: new players discouraged
3. nuke nothing: game continues, everyone is happy with it. the game is as good as it was for months, didn't see a reason why M4A1 must be rusted.


I have precisely the same view on the third scenario. Keeping M4 A1 intact is the fairest option because it doesn't create a permanent gap. No one is penalised and anyone can catch up. Players who worked hard on farming loses no stat points to nerfing. Late starters who haven't done farming are not denied the opportunity available to old players.

[Hank]

I have precisely the same view on the third scenario. Keeping M4 A1 intact is the fairest option because it doesn't create a permanent gap. No one is penalised and anyone can catch up. Players who worked hard on farming loses no stat points to nerfing. Late starters who haven't done farming are not denied the opportunity available to old players.

You are not denied the opportunity to "catch up". Buy 500 RPGs and you wont have to worry about someone with someone with a bunch of M4A1s.

[CounterSniper]

You are not denied the opportunity to "catch up". Buy 500 RPGs and you wont have to worry about someone with someone with a bunch of M4A1s.

500,000 rp...yeah thats realistic

[Swifty]

I am chipping away at it, one respect point at a time.

[Thinks]

These points may have already been made several times throughout this pose, so I apologize in advance if I'm duplicating the sentiments of any other individual preceding this post.

There’s no denying that the M4A1 was a great weapon prior to the developers’ abrupt assault with the “nerf bat”. It was more powerful than virtually the rest of the weapons out there, there’s no denying this. However, I’m of the opinion that, to call it “overpowered” and state that it was causing “severe imbalance” is not an accurate statement by any means.

The reason for my thinking is this, was the weapon available to everyone? To my knowledge, it was available to everyone once you met the proper level requirements. There were no restrictions placed on some players, yet not on others.

Did the drop rate fluctuate based on the actual PLAYER trying to obtain the weapon? Again, from what I know there was not any difference in the drop ratio based on the player. There was speculation that the ratio changed based on the time of day, but that still doesn’t make it imbalanced because everyone is allowed to complete the mission at whatever time they want.

Now, as for the fact that players did not know about this item unless they visited the forums, who’s fault is that? I remember getting face rolled by one individual over and over and he had much higher stats. So I looked through his inventory thinking he had multiple items he purchased using Gold. So I was shocked when I saw he had no items requiring Gold. I looked over his inventory again and that’s when I noticed the M4A1 x 153. I was instantly curious so I came to the forums and that’s how I found out where to get them.

Yes, it took a little effort on my part to find out how to get them. I’d say it was minimal effort at best, but the point still remains that in any game, if you want to excel, you have to increase your knowledgebase and put forth some effort. The ones who put forth the effort are rewarded with having these weapons.
Going forward, any future weapons which are powerful will most likely be discussed on the forums as well as methods for farming them. Based upon your actions in the past, I’m left with the logical assumption that at some point those will be nerfed as well, since the community will collaborate on best farming techniques and gain the upper hand on obtaining them. So what incentive does that leave me with to continue to play?

I feel like the point of the community is for people who really enjoy the game to discuss various ideas and experiences. It is usually visited by only the “hardcore” or fanatics. I would think that a company would embrace that, but these actions seem to be detrimental to the community. If anything, these M4A1’s could be looked at as one more thing to generate web traffic to your site, and what company doesn’t enjoy that?

The M4A1 was more powerful than most weapons, but was available to ALL. Therefore it should be viewed as just that, a “Powerful Weapon.” With it being available to all, the only reason for it causing imbalance would be due to the lack of effort on the part of some individuals.

If any items should be considered to be causing an unfair imbalance, it would be the weapons which you can purchase with Gold. Those weapons are NOT available to everyone, as some people do not have the extra money to be buying gold, therefore discriminating against those whose financial situation does not allow them to buy Gold. No amount of time spent in game will garner those items which can be purchased with Gold. I understand you need to make money and I fully support that.

I’m not saying Gold items should be taken out, just pointing out that you certainly have had no issue with giving one set of players (Gold Buyers) an advantage over another set of players (Non-Gold Buyers), so why would it matter if forum readers have an advantage over non-forum readers?

./EndRant

[Swifty]

@Thinks

interesting analysis, and i agreed with most of what you said

[Jill]

Can I ask a direct question to all CC staff reading the threads content and the question is pretty simple....

Having read the responses for and against your decision to introduce Rusty MA's, have you had any second thoughts?

[Swifty]

+1 Jill

Would be interesting to sit in on some of those Funzio war-room sessions and hear what they say.

[upsman_17]

And just so the naysayers know, there really are two M4A1s on the item list; ID 95 and ID 261. Same name, wildly different stats. 95 is 7/11 while 261 is 20/22. I can definitely see how the wrong IDs were assigned in the item map. While I do not think this should have made it to production, I know first hand that these things do. Integration-testing this (QA) would require someone hitting a drop location for every item ID. Even with a large, dedicated test staff, that is a huge undertaking.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?pli=1&hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AgEHrvnoijXudHFVU2RxYUQzYXYtOURRd0d3M1hVR2c&type=view&gid=3&f=true&colid0=2&filterstr0=M4%20A1&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250


While I see where you are coming from as far as an error in the code P.O.V. and I do appriciate the eventual response from Funzio on this (as late as it may have been) I can't help but wonder....don't you see a flaw in the logic of their explanation? It is baffling to think that Funzio was really unaware of the true stats of the most talked about/popular loot weapon in the game. And we are given the line, "We, the programmers, could not figure out why everyone was going so crazy over a mediocre stats loot weapon." As I stated in a previous post, this topic has been discussed so much on the forums that new threads on the topic were mocked for redundency. As far as I knew, these forums are monitored/read by Funzio. If a member posts a thread on cheats/glitches/banned players or some other no-no topic, that member may be banned, but they couldn't take 5 minutes (if it even took that long) to check the forums to see what people were saying and what the whole hubbub was about? What makes more sense, that smart programmers were unaware of the "mistake" until now or that they are only "correcting the imbalance" now because of bottom line issues ($$$). As someone previously pointed out, maybe they aren't selling enough crates since the common item stats didnt differ greatly from the stats of the M4A1. I have a college buddy that works for a competing game company (that shall go nameless) and I ran this by him. While he obviously says he can't be sure since he does not work for Funzio, he did say it sounds much like a marketing/sales ploy as his company has done similar things in the past and used similar reasoning to explain it to customers. As I said in a previous post, I'm not as furious as some since I was able to farm 230 of them, but I feel for those that just started/didn't start yet. And the reasoning seems fishy. If the prorammers truly couldn't figure this out with the most popular/talked about weapon when the answer they needed was easily attainable, then what does that say about them? It just seems like too many people are drinking the Koolaid as far as the explanation goes.

[upsman_17]

Just to clarify, I don't necessarily have an issue with them taking it away (though I would like them to bring it back :)) My problem was with the procedure and reasoning/explanation. If they truly didn't know, then I apologize for my accusations but at the same time, I would question their commitment/competance going forward.

[Swifty]

I drank the Koolaid, but I put a shot of Absinthe in it first.

[upsman_17]

I drank the Koolaid, but I put a shot of Absinthe in it first.

And there lies the problem, hallucinations mess with your reality. :)

[Crime City Mark]

*snip*

So, we're not talking about specific players being unbalanced. If a player or two is way out of line we can deal with those players. We're talking about the whole game. The ease of access, relative power, and general availability was the problem with this item.

When a large percentage of players are doing nothing but farming one specific item we need to take a hard look at that item and make sure there isn't something off about it. If a handful of players want to spend all day getting an item, cool for them. If 30% (made up percent) of our players do it, possible incoming nerfbat.

We want players to have a variety of items, because those items should be balanced against each other. There should be stuff for players to farm up, but it shouldn't be a simple "this is the best and easiest to get item, just do this all day".

[Crime City Mark]

snip

I see you didn't read CJ's comments. We did read the forums. We read the forums every day. We saw that this was an extremely popular item, but looking at our item lists showed a normal powered item. When we brought this up with the rest of the development and engineering teams (back in December) it was determined not to be an issue. That's called an oversight.

No one ever claimed this was an unfair imbalance because the info was only on the forums. You can make up arguments and then counter them if you want, or you can have a constructive discussion. Your pick.

[Swifty]

+1 Crime City Mark

We need diversity. There should be different gear that fits best with different styles of play. There should be strategy involved in deciding which item to farm.

[Thinks]

You're forgetting all the people (majority) who don't read the forums. They didn't really have a chance of knowing about how easily these were farmed.

It was better than any similarly obtainable item (and most items that are harder to obtain) in the game, bar none. So for everyone who knew about it, the whole point of the game as far as improvement goes became "get M4 A1s". That alone is ridiculously unbalanced. Meanwhile everyone outside that loop is at a serious disadvantage playing the game the way it was meant to be played.




No one ever claimed this was an unfair imbalance because the info was only on the forums. You can make up arguments and then counter them if you want, or you can have a constructive discussion. Your pick.

With all due respect, I did read CJ's comments... and, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that he has stated that it was unfair to the players who didn't read the forums.

I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, but there seems to be some contradiction.

[Max Power]

I see you didn't read CJ's comments. We did read the forums. We read the forums every day. We saw that this was an extremely popular item, but looking at our item lists showed a normal powered item. When we brought this up with the rest of the development and engineering teams (back in December) it was determined not to be an issue. That's called an oversight.


An oversight caused by the fact that nobody at Funzio seems to actually play the game. It would be real simple for someone to download the game on their phone and actually play it a little while and see the same thing we did in game and on hundreds of posts in the forum. Attack someone, look at the weapon they have 500 of, poke it with your finger, and see what the stats are.

I don't doubt at all CJs explanation of what happened, I find it mind boggling that it did. We have been hitting you over the head with it for months.

Rant off. That being said, I am torn. As an owner of all the M4s I can use, I don't wanna see it nerfed, but by attempting to fix this game "imbalance", you actually created a more global one. I agree with Dudeman on the ease of actually doing a tiny bit of research and using the forum, and if you say 30% of the players are farming M4s, is there really that big of a minority.

If I were to be objective, I would say nerf all the M4s to the same, regardless of value. The only reason I am not an advocate of that is that it was the only weapon that allowed non-gold buyers to pretend to compete, and any widening of the gap would frustrate people into quitting.

I think just nerfing the stats on a weapon that was too strong for a long time was the lazy way to handle it. What should have been done was find a way to balance the weapon with other items.

Final note, don't you guys dare nerf the DD bus. People spent 15mil buy in to get a shot at those. I think that is enough. If you nerf it, refund the in game cash.

[CounterSniper]

An oversight caused by the fact that nobody at Funzio seems to actually play the game. It would be real simple for someone to download the game on their phone and actually play it a little while and see the same thing we did in game and on hundreds of posts in the forum. Attack someone, look at the weapon they have 500 of, poke it with your finger, and see what the stats are.

I don't doubt at all CJs explanation of what happened, I find it mind boggling that it did. We have been hitting you over the head with it for months.

Rant off. That being said, I am torn. As an owner of all the M$s I can use, I don't wanna see it nerfed, but by attempting to fix this game "imbalance", you actually created a more global one. I agree with Dudeman on the ease of actually doing a tiny bit of research and using the forum, and if you say 03% of the players are farming M4s, is there really that big of a minority.

If I were to be objective, I would say nerf all the M4s to the same, regardless of value. The only reason I am not an advocate of that is that it was the only weapon that allowed non-gold buyers to pretend to compete, and any widening of the gap would frustrate people into quitting.

I think just nerfing the stats on a weapon that was too strong for a long time was the lazy way to handle it. What should have been done was find a way to balance the weapon with other items.

Final note, don't you guys dare nerf the DD bus. People spent 15mil buy in to get a shot at those. I think that is enough. If you nerf it, refund the in game cash.

+1 Max Power

[Joe Brown1]

Anyone who had missing M4 A1s that submitted a ticket through our support system should have been given them. If you haven't, please post your ticket number in this thread.

I did not receive my missing M4 A1s: (ticket #61255)

[upsman_17]

An oversight caused by the fact that nobody at Funzio seems to actually play the game. It would be real simple for someone to download the game on their phone and actually play it a little while and see the same thing we did in game and on hundreds of posts in the forum. Attack someone, look at the weapon they have 500 of, poke it with your finger, and see what the stats are.

I don't doubt at all CJs explanation of what happened, I find it mind boggling that it did. We have been hitting you over the head with it for months.

Rant off. That being said, I am torn. As an owner of all the M4s I can use, I don't wanna see it nerfed, but by attempting to fix this game "imbalance", you actually created a more global one. I agree with Dudeman on the ease of actually doing a tiny bit of research and using the forum, and if you say 30% of the players are farming M4s, is there really that big of a minority.

If I were to be objective, I would say nerf all the M4s to the same, regardless of value. The only reason I am not an advocate of that is that it was the only weapon that allowed non-gold buyers to pretend to compete, and any widening of the gap would frustrate people into quitting.

I think just nerfing the stats on a weapon that was too strong for a long time was the lazy way to handle it. What should have been done was find a way to balance the weapon with other items.

Final note, don't you guys dare nerf the DD bus. People spent 15mil buy in to get a shot at those. I think that is enough. If you nerf it, refund the in game cash.


+1. Agreed. If I get up to open the DD and it gets nerfed a week later, I WILL QUIT. But....if Funzio nerfed it AND refunded the in-game cash, I would stay and use that money to build economy. That would be fair I think. Kinda like the missing M4's from last week. I sent in a ticket, they were added back to my inventory and the issue was resolved (good job) - so the ability to refund the in-game cash would be there.

[Swifty]

+1 Max Power

He said it better than I could have.

[Jill]

@Max Power
Well said good job well done agree totally.
I've another $8m to save for the DD's and it they nerf it I'm off out of here

[Lars]

Well said, Max Power.

[Joe Brown1]

+1 Max - completely agree

[Amber_]

I think Funzio did the right thing. Between changing the weapon and nerfing, changing does far less damage. If Funzio would've nerfed everyones M4A1's, hell would break loose. Think of all the time and effort that many players have put into this. It would be even more unfair to just take that away.

Besides, I don't think there's going to be a disadvantage. The new players aren't really competing against lvl 100+, they compete against each other (and it's the same for everyone). The only players that will be affected by this is the mid-lvl players that DIDN'T farm it. Well, sucks for you, but just go and farm something else. There's a lot of great stuff to loot! M4A1's aren't as game changing as people without them thinks.

[cookies]

Instead of nerfing the M4s they could have devalued them by adding/upgrading other weapons. But hey, almost no game company will ever implement a 'proper' solution to a problem. Good solutions cost time, brainenergy and money. Changing 1 database entry is cheap and easy. Funzio seems no different sadly.

[Whoopdido1980]

I think Funzio did the right thing. Between changing the weapon and nerfing, changing does far less damage. If Funzio would've nerfed everyones M4A1's, hell would break loose. Think of all the time and effort that many players have put into this. It would be even more unfair to just take that away.

Besides, I don't think there's going to be a disadvantage. The new players aren't really competing against lvl 100+, they compete against each other (and it's the same for everyone). The only players that will be affected by this is the mid-lvl players that DIDN'T farm it. Well, sucks for you, but just go and farm something else. There's a lot of great stuff to loot! M4A1's aren't as game changing as people without them thinks.

I think that's easy for somebody that has a lot of M4's to say. I'm one of the unfortunate mid-level players that didn't farm them right away. My mistake? Yeah, evidently so. I do find it unfair though since no mention was ever made that Funzio was going to do this. I've known about M4's for a long time, but just didn't want to farm them. It sounded too boring. I SHOULD have started months ago but since I just figured I'd be able to do it whenever I wanted, I held off until just maybe a month ago. I ended up with 93 of them. If I actually go through with the process of farming Rusty M4's at 7 attack, the person with 400 more regular M4's than me would have received a 6,000 attack boost over me even though we did exactly the same thing. I can ***** about it all I want, but it's not going to change anything...it also doesn't change the fact that it was ridiculously unfair and just poor to do it out of the blue like they did.

[dudeman]

I see you didn't read CJ's comments. We did read the forums. We read the forums every day. We saw that this was an extremely popular item, but looking at our item lists showed a normal powered item. When we brought this up with the rest of the development and engineering teams (back in December) it was determined not to be an issue. That's called an oversight.

No one ever claimed this was an unfair imbalance because the info was only on the forums. You can make up arguments and then counter them if you want, or you can have a constructive discussion. Your pick.


You're forgetting all the people (majority) who don't read the forums. They didn't really have a chance of knowing about how easily these were farmed.

Who didn't read CJ's comments?

[cookies]

Well, sucks for you, but just go and farm something else. There's a lot of great stuff to loot! M4A1's aren't as game changing as people without them thinks.

Care to point out this lot of great stuff (guns) please? Afaik there isnt a single loot gun that comes remotely close to M4A1.
Crimson Shotgun is a good deal weaker, and Toxic Sprayer has good defense but weak attack and an abyssal droprate.

[erik]

No one ever claimed this was an unfair imbalance because the info was only on the forums. You can make up arguments and then counter them if you want, or you can have a constructive discussion. Your pick.

Is he Dudeman? Or Strawman!! ;)


@whoopdido

Oops.




Also, clearly this decision isnt going to change. A productive thing we can do is use our game experience to make arguments for similar (or better) items to be introduced at the right time at the right cost/sacrifice.

[dudeman]

Is he Dudeman? Or Strawman!! ;)

Sorry erik, if there was a joke in there I seem to have missed it.

[Holicaholic]

I think making them unfarmable is a terrible idea. You're using the excuse that people who don't come to the forums don't have the same information as people who do. You are correct, however: THEY HAVE EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO DO SO BUT ARE CHOOSING NOT TO and for some reason you feel the need to punish people who are trying to further their gaming experience because of those who chose not to do so. Survival of the fittest? I think not. You're turning this game into a crappy version of communism; the people who take the time to get ahead aren't actually getting ahead anymore. Instead we're being herded into the rest of the flock in order to bring "balance" to the game.

You want balance? Put a limit on the amount of gold someone can buy. Instead of nerfing an item that free players can obtain, THAT ISN'T EVEN THE MOST POWERFUL FREE ITEM YOU CAN GET, nerf the super weapons. If you really aren't trying to force people to buy gold then this shouldn't be an issue, should it? You have players that have well over 100k attack and defense, yet you think a gun that will eventually be replaced by another that still won't get you anywhere near those numbers is unbalanced?! Are you insane?! Do YOU have an imbalance in your BRAIN?!

[CounterSniper]

+1 Holicaholic

[Nicholost]

Amber_, I gotta agree with you. Given the two options, this was the best. A lot of you are trying to tell Funzio that they are wrong for choosing as they did and should have picked the third option... but there was no third option on their plate. Not to mention that their decision has already been made and their action is complete. Do you really think they are going to rescind that now and turn on the original M4A1 drops? I mean, really?

For the record, I am a mid-level player (87) and have 144 M4A1s; far from my goal of 380. So one would assume that I would want them to turn back on M4A1 drops. Technically, I do, but I also see where they are coming from and realize their decision has been made. I'm just happy to hear that they are realizing that farming is a playable component of the game. I hope it results in improved farming locations and loot, but we will never see the original M4A1 available again to such low levels. They have made that crystal clear. How is it hard to accept?

[Whoopdido1980]

Amber_, I gotta agree with you. Given the two options, this was the best. A lot of you are trying to tell Funzio that they are wrong for choosing as they did and should have picked the third option... but there was no third option on their plate. Not to mention that their decision has already been made and their action is complete. Do you really think they are going to rescind that now and turn on the original M4A1 drops? I mean, really?

For the record, I am a mid-level player (87) and have 144 M4A1s; far from my goal of 380. So one would assume that I would want them to turn back on M4A1 drops. Technically, I do, but I also see where they are coming from and realize their decision has been made. I'm just happy to hear that they are realizing that farming is a playable component of the game. I hope it results in improved farming locations and loot, but we will never see the original M4A1 available again to such low levels. They have made that crystal clear. How is it hard to accept?

Who hasn't accepted it? Of course it's not going to change, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with it. Sure, eventually we all just need to move on, but this happened yesterday. It's still fresh in everybody's minds and people want to voice their displeasure for a little while longer.

[Swifty]

@Nicholost

Across the board, it is no easier or harder to accept than when you signed onto the boycott thread.

For you personally, maybe, but not for everyone.

[Behzat]

The game was beautiful with M4A1 s.Everyone could get them if they want so there was no problem.if you continue like that you will loose many players.Because there arent any other good items for free.i spend money for this game but i dont want to play this game with only players who spends money i want to play with the players who doesnt spend money too.its normal money equipments are better items but all of the free loot items are trash in the game now and without M4 s players who doesnt spend money will have nothing and will be weak.i dont want to loose them because of your fault!Check my account you will see i have M4A1s also many items which are bought with money.i spent 130 dollars more yesterday so i dont have equipment problem.As i said before you can check my account and you can see.im telling these just to show i dont want M4A1 s for myself.i just want this game to be fair and i dont want to loose other players.if money spenders play this game between themselves there wont be any fun in that so you have to keep other players too.But with your strategy you will loose them!Give them free good equipment with loot like m4s dont take them just give them!So they can have something at hand.Ofc spenders must have much more benefits but there must be better items in game for free!instead of taking m4s back you must make more equipments like that.Also M4s werent overpowered money equipments are much better than M4s so spenders will be more powerful in every condition!The game balance was good i rlly cant understand why you ruin good things in game!

[Thinks]

A lot of you are trying to tell Funzio that they are wrong for choosing as they did and should have picked the third option... but there was no third option on their plate. Not to mention that their decision has already been made and their action is complete. Do you really think they are going to rescind that now and turn on the original M4A1 drops? I mean, really?

There was a third option, leave it alone. (Not saying it’s the right choice) There was also a fourth option, making new weapons with similar stats or increasing the stats of weapons which are already in the game. Both would have minimized the effect of the M4A1. Most would look at it as a positive, “Hey look, new weapons which are more power.” It would have avoided all of this mess that has been created by implementing a budget M4A1.

As for my for your comment about them overturning their original decision and making M4A1’s drop again, no I didn’t think for one minute that would happen. Being a Buffalo Bills and Sabres fan, I’m quite used to disappointments and have learned how to handle them quite well.

But let me ask you this, if we never complain, if we never say “Hey, WTF!?!?”, if we never voice our opinion, or provide any feedback, how can we expect anything to change? If I say nothing, I can’t expect things to change in the future, and I would like to see things handled differently going forward. Again, that’s just my opinion.

[Holicaholic]

I can't remember now what it was, but a few months ago we did get them to overturn a decision they made. Just FYI.

[Sasha54]

Completely agree with Nicholast's last paragraph in his last post. Appologies for my 'anti-funzio' comments earlier, was just annoyed as I saw that I was being denied a chance to match those around me in terms of M4s, but now I see why it was done.

The forum is not the sole source of information though, I found out about the M4 from another player in game long before I found the forum.
Could there not be some form of reward for those of us that take the time to post on these forums & engage in the game more than just by playing it? Eg... Forum members are told the location of a temporary farmable item of good stats? Even if the item was only available for say 1 week before being removed from the drops I think this would be a nice reward/treat to those of us following the forums. What does everyone else think of that idea?


Sounds good to me..........

[Nicholost]

But let me ask you this, if we never complain, if we never say “Hey, WTF!?!?”, if we never voice our opinion, or provide any feedback, how can we expect anything to change? If I say nothing, I can’t expect things to change in the future, and I would like to see things handled differently going forward. Again, that’s just my opinion.

You want an opinion heard? State it without emotion. Some of you have done really well at that. Others, not so much. My point is that when you repeat the same recycled point over and over with all kinds of passion and emotion no one, except those who share the same, will listen or take it seriously. I'm not naming names or pointing fingers, but this is turning into a whine-fest.

[Holicaholic]

You want an opinion heard? State it without emotion. Some of you have done really well at that. Others, not so much. My point is that when you repeat the same recycled point over and over with all kinds of passion and emotion no one, except those who share the same, will listen or take it seriously. I'm not naming names or pointing fingers, but this is turning into a whine-fest.

Getting whiny and getting emotional are two different things.

[kinghansen]

Wow. Funzio just continues to diassapoint. I am honestly about ready to quit this game. I just recently heard about farming the M4A1 so I started to make my way up to level 63 to access Pier 13. I am currently level 62 and I hear about this co called "patch." Now I have absolutely zero chance to farm this item. There is no way that I can compete with people who have hundreds of these. Unless of course I buy gold. Which is never going to happen because I refuse to support these idiots. This is such an obvious ploy to screw over certain players to force them to buy gold. Damn wankers.

[Nicholost]

Getting whiny and getting emotional are two different things.

Sure, but when someone states something emotionally over and over, it's whining. "I want candy" is emotional. "I want candy. Give me candy. This isn't fair. I want candy" is whining.

[Thinks]

I have stated my opinions without emotion. The same person repeating the same point would get old. However, multiple people repeating the same point adds weight to the idea, opinion, or feeling regarding a perticular matter.

If one person complains to a politician regarding a large issue, its most likely going to get overlooked. If enough people raise their voice about that same issue, then it is more likely receive some attention.

You shouldn't be upset at new people chiming in, even if it's the same opinion of a previous poster. They want to be heard, they wan't people to know where they stand on the matter. If something like that upsets you, you may want to just stop reading the thread all together?

I mean no disrespect, but some people are upset and have the right to be heard. Me, I'm not exactly upset, just having a hard time wrapping my head around the whole approach taken with regard to the issue.

The M4 issue seems to me like a paper cut and instead of bandaging it, it was determined that the best approach would be to sever the arm completely.

[DiscoDoc]

Sure, but when someone states something emotionally over and over, it's whining. "I want candy" is emotional. "I want candy. Give me candy. This isn't fair. I want candy" is whining.

Stop whining :).

[allhaildiscordia]

I'm frankly at a loss here. There were 2 M4 A1s defined in the data since the beginning: one at 7/11 (id #95) and the other at 20/22 (id #261). Apparently that wrong one was entered in the loot group plist.

[JimmyShines]

I have to say what a monumental mess the company has created for itself, if just removing a popular farming item wasn’t bad enough; the poor explanation provided by the employees made the situation a lot worse.

Shame, shame....:confused:

[Raptor]

ok, so now the obvious question would be...what's the new item to farm now that M4A1 has been nerfed?

[emcee]

The reason for nerfing the M4s was because it caused an imbalance.
Well I can argue that hardcore camping causes an imbalance as well.
How many players will have a night club at level 8? Are you now going to impose a restriction on camping? If so, something like not staying at any one level more than a month.
Camping and farming M4s are just another tactic. It is not cheating or causing an imbalance as it is AVAILABLE TO ALL.

Anyone visiting my level 8 account will see I have movie theaters, lofts and soon night clubs. They will wonder how is that possible. After asking other players or **** research they will have an answer.

Along the same line of reasoning if I get attacked by someone and I examine their inventory and notice the M4s I am going to ask the same questions and look for answers. Not all answers are exclusively in this forum. There are other sites not to mention Youtube. So Funzio's explanation that it causes an imbalance to those that do not know about it does not make sense. Ignorance is bliss but at least ignorance has a chance to smarten up and learn with time. If I am getting constantly hammered by players with lots of M4s it will eventually dawn on me that I need to find out how to get them. A simple search online will give you an answer. Also, just asking someone in your mob with them will net the same result with time.

By grandfathering existing M4s will create a permanent imbalance. If Funzio will not reinstate them or create an alternative to purchase with in game money or respect then the only option to create a balance to all players is to make all M4s rusty.

People have said the reason for this is strictly financial. If that is the case I will say Funzio made a very bad business decision. M4s for non gold or low gold spenders actually will give more competition to medium or high gold spenders. The latter seeing they are losing will be more of an incentive for them to spend more to win more.

I am a non gold player but was contemplating purchasing some to buy high end gold buildings. I for one will not spend a penny in light of this permanent imbalance.

[Swifty]

+1emcee

Very eloquent, better than I could do.

[erik]

Sorry erik, if there was a joke in there I seem to have missed it.

Sorry Dudeman, a strawman is when you make up an argument and counter it, but the argument itself is not a real scenario.

I couldn't help the bad pun Mark lined up.

[Alecs182]

After two months farmando the M4s, managed only 225.
I did not bother to have discovered this item so late, but now there are 500 people with M4s and have farmando the DDs.
I know the end use only 338 M4s because there are other items strongest, but the fact that I could never match without spending money, makes me lost my interrest in the game.

I'd really like to know the opinion of the Tramp Stamp about this, he is a lucky guy that came out before Funzio crash the game.

[Swifty]

I too would very much like to hear Tramp Stamp's opinion of all this.

[wupuck]

The reason for nerfing the M4s was because it caused an imbalance.
Well I can argue that hardcore camping causes an imbalance as well.
How many players will have a night club at level 8? Are you now going to impose a restriction on camping? If so, something like not staying at any one level more than a month.
Camping and farming M4s are just another tactic. It is not cheating or causing an imbalance as it is AVAILABLE TO ALL.

Anyone visiting my level 8 account will see I have movie theaters, lofts and soon night clubs. They will wonder how is that possible. After asking other players or **** research they will have an answer.

Along the same line of reasoning if I get attacked by someone and I examine their inventory and notice the M4s I am going to ask the same questions and look for answers. Not all answers are exclusively in this forum. There are other sites not to mention Youtube. So Funzio's explanation that it causes an imbalance to those that do not know about it does not make sense. Ignorance is bliss but at least ignorance has a chance to smarten up and learn with time. If I am getting constantly hammered by players with lots of M4s it will eventually dawn on me that I need to find out how to get them. A simple search online will give you an answer. Also, just asking someone in your mob with them will net the same result with time.

By grandfathering existing M4s will create a permanent imbalance. If Funzio will not reinstate them or create an alternative to purchase with in game money or respect then the only option to create a balance to all players is to make all M4s rusty.

People have said the reason for this is strictly financial. If that is the case I will say Funzio made a very bad business decision. M4s for non gold or low gold spenders actually will give more competition to medium or high gold spenders. The latter seeing they are losing will be more of an incentive for them to spend more to win more.

I am a non gold player but was contemplating purchasing some to buy high end gold buildings. I for one will not spend a penny in light of this permanent imbalance.

Agreed. I liked the imbalance - it really gave reason folks to do missions; granted it was only a couple of missions but nevertheless...

these types of games have a reverse business model, they're trying to get $ from the few rather then the masses (sans the apple download payment structure) - they need to find a way to keep players interested and the M4A1 was a huge way of keeping folks interested.

A rusty M4 7Atk/11D - is nothing special and absolutely useless. Guess what. I'm back to camping mode/respect farming once this wall safe thing is over.

Definitely they need to create a purchasable gun w/ game money/respect that will bring balance back in order

[erik]

I'm frankly at a loss here. There were 2 M4 A1s defined in the data since the beginning: one at 7/11 (id #95) and the other at 20/22 (id #261). Apparently that wrong one was entered in the loot group plist.

Good to see you around allhail!

[wupuck]

BTW, I would suggest hitting support@funzio.com and let them know you'd like to bring it back. but i strongly suggest keeping it cordial and clean - it'll carry alot more weight

[epicrecipe]

TrampStamp left the game recently because some of the hard work he did on economic theory was deleted from the forums. Barring explanation, he concluded that he is not valued by Funzio, despite his analysis adding new layers of gameplay, including gold rebuys. I suspect this was an oversight...I'd encourage Funzio to reach out to him directly to invite him back, perhaps even as a game consultant.


I think Funzio did the right thing...[snip]...I don't think there's going to be a disadvantage. The new players aren't really competing against lvl 100+, they compete against each other (and it's the same for everyone).

Funzio felt there was an imbalance and took hasty action to correct it, effect be damned.


The only players that will be affected by this is the mid-lvl players that DIDN'T farm it. Well, sucks for you, but just go and farm something else.

This is the real imbalance. I'm one of those mid-level players (in your mafia BTW) and I'm facing a severe disadvantage as I level up. As such, I'm losing interest in a game I've played for the better part of a year and I'm not inclined to spend more RM in a game where a player's *earned* edge is under threat.

The game affects you too. You farmed your M4 lot, you can take comfort knowing the serious advantage you have over rising players.


M4A1's aren't as game changing as people without them thinks.

Funzio obviously disagrees with this as do most of us set out to farm them. And if they aren't as useful as you suggest, I'm curious about why you invested so much time farming yours.

This move stinks. We low & mid-level players got burned this time...next time the game mechanics could change to harm your strategy. I personally feel that social game developers should take special care not to make unforeseen game rules such a huge part of the game. There's no point in continuing when it ceases to be fun.

[upsman_17]

You want an opinion heard? State it without emotion. Some of you have done really well at that. Others, not so much. My point is that when you repeat the same recycled point over and over with all kinds of passion and emotion no one, except those who share the same, will listen or take it seriously. I'm not naming names or pointing fingers, but this is turning into a whine-fest.

Sorry, I didn't think I was whining. Was just trying to raise (what I think) was a valid point. Not trying to be a d!ck, but if you truly have accepted Funzios decision and have moved on and don't want to hear anymore whining then maybe you shouldn't read this thread anymore. This just happened yesterday so it is very fresh in people's minds. Some have not accepted the reasoning as you have so just let them vent. I'm not happy about what happened, but I'll move on in the game as long as there are no more sweeping changes (ie: DDs). Those that have accepted the explanation are just going to frustrate themselves by continuing to read a thread dominated by those who have not. If I was not one of the whiners you were referencing then apologies, just seems it COULD have been directed my way since I referenced one of your posts in my last post in this thread. Again, not trying to ruffle feathers, just pointing out that everyone grieves in their own way and this nerf was/is kind of a big deal in terms of strategy and "balancing the playing field". I will now go back to NOT farming rusty trombones....I mean rusty M4's. BTW, can we get a forum ruling on this....since many feel they were put over a barrel by this decision, can we get an official name/image change on the rusty m4 to "rusty trombone"? Maybe the comedic effect would help people accept the decision and move on. :)

[Swifty]

+1 on Rusty Trombone

[duder]

Dammit, this thread is growing too fast.
... so I'm going to throw in my two cent before getting through everyone else's comments.

@Funzio
It pains me to say, but I'm kind of glad you nerfed the drops on the m1a4 - it didn't make sense that you could start farming the top defensive gun that didn't cost gold @ level 30. Obviously I'm pissed as hell because my... er... little camping strategy means that I've missed out on a serious shortcut to power (crap I need to go update my strategy recommendation in pop-eye's thread now). I'd just ask that you put the M4 back in somewhere (maybe a high end mission drop) or at least introduce a repeatably obtainable non-respect weapon with similar defensive stats. Maybe something that can be purchased through the store with levels in the mid-100's?

Generally the mission drops have looked kind of unbalanced and it's good to hear that's an aspect of the game that's getting some attention. One suggestion (though no doubt this is the exercise being performed) would be to start looking at the combination of level + required items + expected energy cost per drop to bring stats in line. It may be worth charting that against average incomes at different player levels and rates of respect gain. It may also be worth engaging some of the forum contributors in the conversation around impacts of introducing items. I think many of us are scrupulous enough to point out game balance issues.

Finally, thank you for the communication. I got an in game message asking me what I thought of the change and it was nice to not have to scroll to find a thread describing a change with such a significant impact on game play. Again, while I agree with the change, it does drastically change the entire approach taken by an informed player beginning around level 30.

@forum (for discussion)
If we are talking about the game being enjoyable long term, it seems to me that this move (or some kind of redressing of gun balance) was somewhat inevitable. The options seem to have been nerfing the item or removing it from distribution. Some kind of rolling phased approach might have been more interesting, looking at the locations that drop the M4 and starting with the junkyard roll them back (watching players without 500 M4's trying to figure out how to get the most M4's possible in a limited timeframe as available locations disappear might have been funny)... but this probably works out about the same.

There was another option: introduce a stronger farmable weapon for high level players (either purchasable or imbedded in a new area), but that would clearly begin to minimize the value of gold weapons which I view as a no-no (despite having no desire to invest to the level that would make a significant impact on my target attack levels).

I'll somewhat echo that folks who have a lot of M4's probably won't be tangoing too much with folks who didn't have the opportunity to get M4's. It's an argument that rings a little hollow for me - I clearly have myself convinced that I will someday do battle with some of the folks that I started playing with. But here's hoping that I find a solution by then...

[Santa]

Dammit, this thread is growing too fast.
... so I'm going to throw in my two cent before getting through everyone else's comments.

@Funzio
It pains me to say, but I'm kind of glad you nerfed the drops on the m1a4 - it didn't make sense that you could start farming the top defensive gun that didn't cost gold @ level 30. Obviously I'm pissed as hell because my... er... little camping strategy means that I've missed out on a serious shortcut to power (crap I need to go update my strategy recommendation in pop-eye's thread now). I'd just ask that you put the M4 back in somewhere (maybe a high end mission drop) or at least introduce a repeatably obtainable non-respect weapon with similar defensive stats. Maybe something that can be purchased through the store with levels in the mid-100's?

Generally the mission drops have looked kind of unbalanced and it's good to hear that's an aspect of the game that's getting some attention. One suggestion (though no doubt this is the exercise being performed) would be to start looking at the combination of level + required items + expected energy cost per drop to bring stats in line. It may be worth charting that against average incomes at different player levels and rates of respect gain. It may also be worth engaging some of the forum contributors in the conversation around impacts of introducing items. I think many of us are scrupulous enough to point out game balance issues.

Finally, thank you for the communication. I got an in game message asking me what I thought of the change and it was nice to not have to scroll to find a thread describing a change with such a significant impact on game play. Again, while I agree with the change, it does drastically change the entire approach taken by an informed player beginning around level 30.

@forum (for discussion)
If we are talking about the game being enjoyable long term, it seems to me that this move (or some kind of redressing of gun balance) was somewhat inevitable. The options seem to have been nerfing the item or removing it from distribution. Some kind of rolling phased approach might have been more interesting, looking at the locations that drop the M4 and starting with the junkyard roll them back (watching players without 500 M4's trying to figure out how to get the most M4's possible in a limited timeframe as available locations disappear might have been funny)... but this probably works out about the same.

There was another option: introduce a stronger farmable weapon for high level players (either purchasable or imbedded in a new area), but that would clearly begin to minimize the value of gold weapons which I view as a no-no (despite having no desire to invest to the level that would make a significant impact on my target attack levels).

I'll somewhat echo that folks who have a lot of M4's probably won't be tangoing too much with folks who didn't have the opportunity to get M4's. It's an argument that rings a little hollow for me - I clearly have myself convinced that I will someday do battle with some of the folks that I started playing with. But here's hoping that I find a solution by then...

You're rich, just buy a bunch of sniper rifles and steel garrottes and Audis or something.

[cookies]

Introducing new high level weapons will not solve much of this fiasco imo. There is already 2 fairly decent items that could potentially replace the M4A1s but neither of them are available before level 100. At this level, newer people will get stomped by others that are fully loaded with M4s before they can even begin to farm.

[kaz]

There is already 2 fairly decent items that could potentially replace the M4A1s but neither of them are available before level 100. At this level, newer people will get stomped by others that are fully loaded with M4s before they can even begin to farm.
Wich items?

[dudeman]

snip

I'm not sure that there is even a point suggesting alternative options that could have been taken, but another option would have been to convert the current M4A1 locations into "multi-loot" jobs, similar to area bosses. The Rusty version could have been given a drop rate equal to or slightly better than the current rate, and the M4A1 "Classic" could drop from the same jobs but at a very low rate.

Players would still essentially be farming the Rusty version of the item, but with the opportunity to "get lucky" and receive a "Classic" version once in a blue moon.

Not that I expect anything to change, what's done is done. I just thought this would have been a creative "fix" to the so-called problem.

[cookies]

Wich items?

Crimson Shotgun (19/14) - chemical plant
Toxic Sprayer (27/12) - level 93 and poor droprate.

They arent M4s but reasonable enough.

This idea about wanting diversity and it being wrong that people farm a certain item is all hippie-talk. Min-maxers' will always find the 'best' item. If Funzios idea of fun is to keep following a nerf policy the next time this happens (and it will), then i would rather not be a part of it.

[upsman_17]

Interesting......


I'm not sure that there is even a point suggesting alternative options that could have been taken, but another option would have been to convert the current M4A1 locations into "multi-loot" jobs, similar to area bosses. The Rusty version could have been given a drop rate equal to or slightly better than the current rate, and the M4A1 "Classic" could drop from the same jobs but at a very low rate.

Players would still essentially be farming the Rusty version of the item, but with the opportunity to "get lucky" and receive a "Classic" version once in a blue moon.

Not that I expect anything to change, what's done is done. I just thought this would have been a creative "fix" to the so-called problem.

[Santa]

Crimson Shotgun (19/14) - chemical plant
Toxic Sprayer (27/12) - level 93 and poor droprate.

They arent M4s but reasonable enough.

This idea about wanting diversity and it being wrong that people farm a certain item is all hippie-talk. Min-maxers' will always find the 'best' item. If Funzios idea of fun is to keep following a nerf policy the next time this happens (and it will), then i would rather not be a part of it.

Well then it looks like you're leaving! Kay bye!

[jamu420]

ADD ME 275 455 969

[cookies]

Well then it looks like you're leaving! Kay bye!

If i am, Santa wont be getting any cookies. Pity-pooh i am level 57 too and there would be a big pile to give away :p

[erik]

I thought of you duder when this happened. G Wiz too.

Great response.

[Santa]

If i am, Santa wont be getting any cookies. Pity-pooh i am level 57 too and there would be a big pile to give away :p

Humph. Just leave the jolly ole man nothing huh? I guess I deserve it.

Cheers

[Swifty]

@cookies

The min-maxers will only find the single best item if there is a single best item. The key is to design gear so that there is no single best item. And the devil is in the details.

[cookies]

@cookies

The min-maxers will only find the single best item if there is a single best item. The key is to design gear so that there is no single best item. And the devil is in the details.

I am curious how that would be suposed to work without a complete redesign of all item stats. The only way to accomplish this that i can come up with right now, would require all items obtainable at a certain level and category to have equal stats. Respect items would also have to be normalized to equal loot and cash items, else all people will do is farm respect.

This would lead to more balance and less diverse stats and less chance for players to distinguish themselves. Seems pretty bland to have alot of different icons that all do the same.

[Swifty]

@cookies

Well, maybe the designers have some clever ideas on this subject that you and I have not thought of yet.

If you are saying they are not going to do it, then I fear you are right.

If you are saying it cannot be done, then I am more hopeful than that.

[mac daddy]

Help me understand this... players that don't read the forum may get upset cause they have no idea that farming M4A1s is possible and hence and "imbalance" is created? So Funzio adjusts the game in response? How will those disaffected players even know about it if they don't read the forum?

For me, I joined the game about two months ago and farming is my favorite part. I played for a month, with no interest in the forum. Didn't even know that the gun existed. I started reading the forum and spent about ten hours reading posts, learned of farming and game comes alive. I farmed about 150 and loved every opportunity. After all, we're talking about an intermittent reinforcement schedule... the heart and soul of gambling!

By the way... I don't recall any posts from members complaining about HL players and their "magic guns."

Bottom line... Funzio should nut up and refrain my attempts to fix what is not broken. I have purchased some gold ($50 over the past two months) and am glad for the investment in a game I care about so much. The game is now a chore.

[endeaffig]

watch Tottenham Hotspur Vs Bolton live (http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=58161&pst=1561800) athletic bilbao Vs manchester united live (http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=58161&pst=1561788)

[Yahkin]

I see you didn't read CJ's comments. We did read the forums. We read the forums every day. We saw that this was an extremely popular item, but looking at our item lists showed a normal powered item. When we brought this up with the rest of the development and engineering teams (back in December) it was determined not to be an issue. That's called an oversight.

This is why it's good to have somebody in the company actually playing the games. They could point out things like OP weapons, overlapping buildings, hoods with 3 of the same type of buildings, and of course the timely crashes when robbing those level 10 lofts.

Having a forum rep is definitely a step in the right direction though.

[Swifty]

+1 Yahkin, what he said

It might help them with quality control.

[allhaildiscordia]

For clarification, here's how this happened: Due to an error on our end, there were two items called M4 A1 in the item database. The one that was in our official notes had the stats of the rusty M4. The one actually in the game had the stats of the old M4. Every time we'd see people farming these, we'd check the "official" stats and go "Huh, I don't see the problem, they only have such-and-such stats". So basically, we dropped the ball hard on noticing this one and are going to be much more careful from here on out.

I'm sorry, but someone on your development staff frankly don't deserve their salary. I wrote a Python script using the biplist package that uncovered the "real" stats without issue, unwinding the multiple IDs used between all the plists. Apparently this was too much for you yourselves to do. Oh wait, I posted a spreadsheet with the "real" stats, and there are numerous threads with the "real" stats, including the "how to get golden weapons" thread. Your internal database failed to recognize the existence of duplicate named items, though the item IDs were different.

[JimmyShines]

I'm sorry, but someone on your development staff frankly don't deserve their salary. I wrote a Python script using the biplist package that uncovered the "real" stats without issue, unwinding the multiple IDs used between all the plists. Apparently this was too much for you yourselves to do. Oh wait, I posted a spreadsheet with the "real" stats, and there are numerous threads with the "real" stats, including the "how to get golden weapons" thread. Your internal database failed to recognize the existence of duplicate named items, though the item IDs were different.

+1K


Well said!!!!! :o

[Dreno33]

QUESTION:

where do i go to see a list of goals???? i never have thug life missions I'm on hitman 12. point me in the right direction?

[DiscoDoc]

I'm still at a loss as to how a developer admits an item is overpowered, but allows one segment of the community to keep it and hands the shaft to the others. And how can something everyone has access to be overpowered anyway?

The original problem makes sense, mistakes happen, but the solution is just... odd.

[Ghost818]

QUESTION:

where do i go to see a list of goals???? i never have thug life missions I'm on hitman 12. point me in the right direction?
They will eventually come up Dreno33, theres nothing we or you can do other than continue your goals and hope they come up.

[deuces]

I dont really want to search and try to find it, but im 99% sure one of the mods here said they read every post on the forum. Considering that everyone who is upset about these changes and voicing their opinions now learned about the m4a1 through reading the posts on this forum...i just dont see how its possible that the mods missed this. We arent stupid, dont lie to us please. This is probably the most covered topic on the forum; telling us this was an oversight is just absurd.

I dont really have an opinion on what should've been done in this situation. I'd be fine with the stats being nerfed, i'm fine with the current resolution, i'd be fine with things staying as they were. Its not like nerfing those stats will make the common player competitive with an intelligent forum member, it would just widen the gap between gold and non gold players.

Reading through this thread and seeing the mods responses in some instances made me angry, sad, and just wtf in general.

[G Wiz]

Massive attention by the forum community to what was seen as an "average item" is a bit unacceptable in terms of it not raising a red flag on the development side. The response time can be compared to NEMA on katrina's devastation with the forums being New Orleans.

But moving on...I think its fair to say that the community is walking on egg shells right now, waiting for a sucker punch that we know is coming, but is it then a sucker punch?

A perfectly timed "event" does do some apologizing, but what are the plans for the future to prevent further oversights, be it current unknown ones or future ones?

[Dreno33]

@ G Wiz, I'm getting the feeling you and TS have a tumblr. bc that is some funny **** you made. hahah

[Jill]

Can I ask a direct question to all CC staff reading the threads content and the question is pretty simple....

Having read the responses for and against your decision to introduce Rusty MA's, have you had any second thoughts?

CC Mark you said that you read the forum, so for a second time, can you answer the simple question I asked on post #151, if you can't that's ok but tell us......

[dudeman]

CC Mark you said that you read the forum, so for a second time, can you answer the simple question I asked on post #151, if you can't that's ok but tell us......

Reading the forum is different from paying attention and listening. I have no doubt someone is reading, but it seems that quick glances often lead to more oversights or misunderstandings. Maybe if you PM one of the CC Crime Lords directly, or send an email, they will respond to you personally or with slightly more detail than they will here. Chances are good that a public response to your inquiry will just be poking at embers.

[Inzaghi]

I'm currently level 48 and I'm camping for about three weeks, now my income is at least twice more than 9 out of 10 rivals. I plan to build economy first, therefore I spend $5 on fast payout buildings like icecream shops and smoke shops. I build/upgrade strictly according to their ROI values and collect them on time so that I now have MTs and lofts. My hope is that once my economy is strong I can start upgrading and farming m4a1s. At the same time I will spend more RM in economy in order to build NCs. With 500 m4a1s, and my booming economy supporting explosives, I'm not afraid of other non-gold buyers. I know I could not compete with gold buyers (> $100) but anyway they contribute a lot to the game and that's fair. However, when I realize that m4a1s are downgraded to rusty ones, I decided not to spend more RM. Just a simple calculation, 500 m4a1s (20/22) and 500 rusty one (7/11) lead to 6500/5500 difference. We need to purchase, for example, 30~40 Bloody Mayhems (237/146 for $60/600 gold) to bridge the gap. That means more than one thousand dollars in RM! How many later players will spend so much money, just to compete with veteran non-gold buyers? You respect those who have already spent the time and energy to farm, but why don't you respect those who are going to? You might not receive many objections here bc many people on this forum started early and have already farmed a lot, but you will lose newcomers and their money.

[xclusiv]

thats the problem there is nothing to farm in this game that is worth farming.

we need items to farm that are better than the store ones because the economy needed to get 500 of a 10 million dollar item is a joke.

doing the goal map missions is not rewarding because you are spending money on useless stuff inorder to do them, the items you get are very few and do not make a major effect on your overall attack/def

this game needs farming, we need different guns to farm, different meele to farm, that are better than the store and are similar in stats so people can choose what strategy to choose, there is no other farmable gun in the game other than the m4a1 that is worth farming. i want to see high stat guns, cars, meele armour to farm. makes the game worth playing. it was satfisying for me when i was farming the m4a1 as watching it drop and collecting and seeing my stats increase day by day. this is rewarding. not doing goal mission getting 1 item after 10 years, which makes hardly any impact on your stats

give the game more depth, more strategy, more discussions come on funzio

[Swifty]

@xclusiv

They may yet bring back the M4A1 because of your boycott thread.

[kinghansen]

@xclusiv

They may yet bring back the M4A1 because of your boycott thread.

Wow I did not notice that thread until you pointed it out. I had previously already decided to not support Funzio with real life money unless they reintroduce the M4A1.

[Swearengen]

+ 1 to what xclusiv said, this game needs farmable items. Without it, frankly it is getting boring and after months I am seriously on the edge of dropping out. Farming is a good viable strategy, it is entertaining to as a goal, etc...

Bring the M4a1 back or other equivalent farmable items that fill that role, maybe make them available for a limited time, then switch to a new one, etc...

[emcee]

M4s will make you powerful for your level only if have one per mafia member. Most people starting to farm or were in the midst of farming were definitely not employing this strategy. Farming M4s will make you strong provided you have the economy to outfit your mob across the board and not just guns. It can be argued that someone having a very poor economy and strictly farming M4s can be potentially getting weaker or at least exposing themselves to stronger opponents as they level. The worst thing you can do in this game is leveling quickly imo.
Even though this is a very strong low to mid level weapon it is not necessarily the holy grail end game option especially with limited time events and other guns I've seen in higher level players.

Level 30-50 players may not be formulating a long term strategy and those with the knowledge of M4s farming at the junkyard can make them pretty much invulnerable to attacks.

By level 51 players are more seasoned as it takes longer to level up. As well there are stronger equips to purchase with in game money or with respect. So someone oblivious to the existence of M4s by level 51 can still mount a viable counter or defense by not farming and just buying available equips.

I suggest nerfing M4 farming at junkyard and reinstating the previous M4s from Boardwalk moving forward.
I only lost 2 battles (robberies) from level 30-51 and only to someone with M4s in their inventory. Of course having
91 M4s in my inventory now is a boon but I also have a full complement of top or near top equips and explosives for my entire mob. So in order to level the playing field without converting all farmed M4s into rusties would be to reinstate farming like before but at a higher level; potentially even nerfing boardwalk as well.

[kinghansen]

M4s will make you powerful for your level only if have one per mafia member. Most people starting to farm or were in the midst of farming were definitely not employing this strategy. Farming M4s will make you strong provided you have the economy to outfit your mob across the board and not just guns. It can be argued that someone having a very poor economy and strictly farming M4s can be potentially getting weaker or at least exposing themselves to stronger opponents as they level. The worst thing you can do in this game is leveling quickly imo.
Even though this is a very strong low to mid level weapon it is not necessarily the holy grail end game option especially with limited time events and other guns I've seen in higher level players.

Level 30-50 players may not be formulating a long term strategy and those with the knowledge of M4s farming at the junkyard can make them pretty much invulnerable to attacks.

By level 51 players are more seasoned as it takes longer to level up. As well there are stronger equips to purchase with in game money or with respect. So someone oblivious to the existence of M4s by level 51 can still mount a viable counter or defense by not farming and just buying available equips.

I suggest nerfing M4 farming at junkyard and reinstating the previous M4s from Boardwalk moving forward.
I only lost 2 battles (robberies) from level 30-51 and only to someone with M4s in their inventory. Of course having
91 M4s in my inventory now is a boon but I also have a full complement of top or near top equips and explosives for my entire mob. So in order to level the playing field without converting all farmed M4s into rusties would be to reinstate farming like before but at a higher level; potentially even nerfing boardwalk as well.

Well said. This is perhaps the best suggestion I have read on this thread.

[Spoon86]

CC developers say M4 is overpowered and made the game unbalanced, But they are allowing the people that already have them to keep them ?
Tell me how a weapon ANYONE can get be unbalanced it would cancle eachother out if both sides have them, But now I need to go up against them when I don't have m4's thats BS.

This is just a plan that funzio made so we buy more gold to spend on weapons to replace the m4a1's we wont be getting anymore.

[Swifty]

@Spoon86

That sounds like a pretty good plan.

[christo]

and send a general message, slightly coded (If you're at the Boardwalk the M4A1 could come in handy to complete this mission..... ie the Shooting Gallery)

that would give the information and the chance to the non-forum players to compete fairly.

[Don Vito Corleone]

This whole M4 debacle very much reminds me of the state the world finds itself in today with regards to the Middle East. Countries such as Israel who have already acquired Nuclear Weapons are considered to be safe, but those that have not acquired them yet, e.g. Iran, are seen as a threat to the entire world.

The only way to truly "balance" the power is ensuring that both sides either have Nuclear Weapons, or that neither of them do. Unbalancing the power is allowing one side to have Nuclear Weapons and then prohibiting the other one from having the same.

Does this sound familiar here at all?

[Tramp Stamp]

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3319/3326959482_20266aa156.jpg

[Don Vito Corleone]

Thanks Tramp Stamp, that's what I used to look like during my peak, I look a lot older these days and only really have time to play with my great grandchildren, but when I see injustices like this in the world, I have no choice but to step in. It's my moral duty.

Funzio, let me make you an offer you can't refuse.

Bring back the M4A1. Let's give the people what they want.

Leaving the M4A1 the way it was does not unbalance the game, what you are doing now does.

We need to win back the confidence of the masses and make this game enjoyable again. There is a lot of hostility right now and the situation we find ourselves in is very volatile. Your next move is absolutely crucial. Think with your heart and not your wallet.

You know it makes sense.

It's time to act.


Peace to the Middle East.

[thisisdream]

They don't give a **** what we ppl say, they just look at the income graph. Just don't spend money anymore.

[emcee]

Unfortunately if we all quit in this forum that probably accounts for less than 0.1% of all players. We can't make a dent or a ripple in Funzio's pond so its business as usual imo.

[dudeman]

They don't give a **** what we ppl say, they just look at the income graph. Just don't spend money anymore.

In addition, post a negative review on iTunes with a 1 star rating, and a "thumbs down" on Tapjoy. No rebuys and potentially fewer new customers.

I'm not saying you should do that, simply pointing out that you could do that.

[Plux]

Plux answer - I have 333 M4A1's. Funzio, turn all M4A1's into Rusty M4A1's. I'm sure all those players out there who feel they missed out on this little weighting advantage will love this idea. Cmon Funzio, turn all M4A1's into Rusty's only!!