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View Full Version : Formula to cal. def values contributed by def buildings against rob/atk by peacock



Peacock
01-11-2012, 02:49 AM
Hi all

Just back from my holiday. Starting my sch soon. Won't have much time for the forum
Seems like alot of u are unsure of how to cal. the values contributed by def buildings
Funzio made some changes again. Now when u rob/atk the same player, u will see that rob def = atk def on the fight screen. How to cal?

I will use dog training school as an eg.

Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
contribution Def against rob: 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 110
Contribution Def against atk: 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 110

The starting base values can be seen from the menu
The maths is the same. U get half the base value for very upgrade

Starting base values for each type
Abandoned Building : 2
Bodyguard Agency : 10
Guard Tower : 3
Armory : 26
Muay Thai Center : 18
Chemical Plant : 33
Gatling Turret : 25
Snipers Den : 32
Machine Gun Turret : 5
Safehouse : 9
Surveillance Center : 40
Missile Turret : 42

It applies the same for all the 3 different classes

Cooz
01-11-2012, 04:06 AM
Good stuff, Peacock, I'm assuming these bases are non-tycoon?

Peacock
01-11-2012, 04:26 AM
Non-tycoon and tycoon makes no difference

Btw u will get the full def values from items. So when u r atacked or robbed. Your total def value is
Formula for rob/atk def
mafia def = Contribution Def against rob/atk + def values from all items ur mafia is using

Anubis
01-11-2012, 05:19 AM
Bodyguard Agency : 10

Just double checking as you discovered this last month so it has been talked about, but my level 10 Agency that shows 826defence is actually only giving me 100mafia defence. I'd love to know where the other 726 goes to. It just poses as a decoy I suppose but how many HL ppl check your profile before attacking - you generally just mash the att button.

We need to make a quick chart on lvl1 defence, cost, and foot print they leave to find out how much defence/square we are getting. I think Sniperdens have great potential. If they are 3x3 like the guard towers I will just replace them all with Sniper Dens.

Level 1 Sniper Den 32def, I got 19 guard towers ranging from level 5-7 so I am only getting 15-21 from each of them. My only issue with all this is if Funzio change the defence calculation to allow the full value of defence buildings. There really is very little point in building defence buildings whatsoever unless you have additional space and want some small mafia defence additions.

Peacock
01-11-2012, 05:38 AM
Just double checking as you discovered this last month so it has been talked about, but my level 10 Agency that shows 826defence is actually only giving me 100mafia defence.

I got 19 guard towers ranging from level 5-7 so I am only getting 15-21 from each of them.

Halo Anubis, u made some slight mistake
If u use my formula, ur level 10 Agency = 10 + 9 x 5 = 55 mafia defence
guard towers ranging from level 5-7 only gives u 9-12 from each of them

Anubis
01-11-2012, 05:43 AM
oh **** yeah, base then .5 *base for each additional level, god that makes it even worse

MadHattersMother
01-11-2012, 11:06 AM
Hi all

Just back from my holiday. Starting my sch soon. Won't have much time for the forum

This is the only part im intrested in. I can't wait for this day too come. The forum will be a lot more usful when you stop posting your stupid theorys that are not thought out and wrong...................

http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?16771-Pennuts-defence-theory-SMASHED.

Read the above if you intend of following this theory

Anubis
01-11-2012, 11:13 AM
Its actually all true.


Learn it and you can use it to defeat/rob ppl with large profile defences with masses of defence buildings. I mean the missile turret practically gives the same amount of real defence that my lvl10 agency does.

Duke.0
01-11-2012, 11:16 AM
Just double checking as you discovered this last month so it has been talked about, but my level 10 Agency that shows 826defence is actually only giving me 100mafia defence. I'd love to know where the other 726 goes to. It just poses as a decoy I suppose but how many HL ppl check your profile before attacking - you generally just mash the att button.

We need to make a quick chart on lvl1 defence, cost, and foot print they leave to find out how much defence/square we are getting. I think Sniperdens have great potential. If they are 3x3 like the guard towers I will just replace them all with Sniper Dens.

Level 1 Sniper Den 32def, I got 19 guard towers ranging from level 5-7 so I am only getting 15-21 from each of them. My only issue with all this is if Funzio change the defence calculation to allow the full value of defence buildings. There really is very little point in building defence buildings whatsoever unless you have additional space and want some small mafia defence additions.

Sniper Den's are 5x5

and i wouldn't necessary say that defense buildings are worthless to level up. They do their job - to help prevent robberies quite well if you have enough defense/buildings.

The building defense is halved when defending an attack right?

I guess i fail to see what the problem is with this. I'm happy they are used at all to defend an attack. I would have thought they are just used to prevent robberies and save your money from thieves.

EDIT: I bring you what CC Mark said Months ago, which was in a thread that has 4 replies.


If you're worried about getting robbed your priority should be:

Defense buildings > Mafia size (up to cap) > Defense items / defense skill

Source: http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?12108-How-defense-works&p=54641&viewfull=1#post54641

MadHattersMother
01-11-2012, 11:20 AM
Its actually all true.


Learn it and you can use it to defeat/rob ppl with large profile defences with masses of defence buildings. I mean the missile turret practically gives the same amount of real defence that my lvl10 agency does.

Mate if your such a beleiver why do you have that level 6 guard tower farm still. It would make sence to just delete its almost worthless.... Its pure ugly and takes up space....

Anubis
01-11-2012, 11:26 AM
and i wouldn't necessary say that defense buildings are worthless to level up. They do their job - to help prevent robberies quite well if you have enough defense.

The building defense is halved when defending an attack right?

I guess i fail to see what the problem is with this. I'm happy they are used at all to defend an attack. I would have thought they are just used to prevent robberies and save your money from thieves.

No dude, Peacock and Jihy found out the true affect def buildings have using the 'mafia defence' goals. The best thingto do is just build multiple lvl 1 turrets, gattlin guns, or missile turretts as you get the full defence at level 1.


-Madhatter - I am a firm believer, but Funzio could change things at any time, and I put alot of RL time into those things and the agencies. Another reason is, as you have seen my hood you'll know I don't need the space right now. If it comes down to it, they will be the first defence buildings to go, although I like the way they look at the back of my market street.

MadHattersMother
01-11-2012, 11:56 AM
MAte you have too have a good looking hood. Your just not pimp without it....

procsyzarc
01-11-2012, 12:11 PM
Not sure if it has been proven wrong elsewhere but still using the theory.

Defending against attacks.

Full mafia defence is used and no building defence.

Defending against robs

Half mafia defence is used and full building defence is used.

This still seems to work for me and have been able to easily calculate the success rate of fights/robs.

MadHattersMother
01-11-2012, 12:15 PM
Too much effort for a game calculating stuff for me. I just attack and rob at will

Anubis
01-11-2012, 12:21 PM
Not sure if it has been proven wrong elsewhere but still using the theory.

Defending against attacks.

Full mafia defence is used and no building defence.

Defending against robs

Half mafia defence is used and full building defence is used.

This still seems to work for me and have been able to easily calculate the success rate of fights/robs.

Thats what ccmark said before we could see the opponents defence stat, and before we gotthe att/def goals.

Since then its been proven that is not the case. (I usedto go on exactly with that sentiment).

Test this out for your self.

(Also take not, it is easier to rob someone then it is to att them, the % differences and exactly how that works is yet to be found out.)

Say you have 15K att. Find a hood full of defence buildings, so profile defence reads something like 25-30K Try to calculate in your head how much building defence trhey have. If it is around 10K+ you will win all robberies, and most att's aslong as the defence shown in the PVP screen is similar to your att.

Its a hard concept to grasp, but the only defence is total mafia defence. In every att/rob you do,m all items are included + the very small fracction of building defence. (Don't try this on a hood littered with lvl 1 gattling turrets).

Just try to understand what Peacock is saying and you can use it all to your advantage.

procsyzarc
01-11-2012, 12:50 PM
Well will check it out at lunch when i have some time, still doesn't sound right since.

I have 20k attack and check someone with 25k defence if they have no buildings I won't be able to attack them and win but can rob them with ease, but when i find someone with huge amounts of building defence I can win all fights but may lose some robberies.

Like I said may be wrong and will test it out at lunch but does seem building defence does effect robs more than attacks, although I really hope you are right then I will just start putting down turrents every 8 hours, since most of the time now I am upgrading and not building

Anubis
01-11-2012, 12:53 PM
I have 20k attack and check someone with 25k defence if they have no buildings I won't be able to attack them and win but can rob them with ease, but when i find someone with huge amounts of building defence I can win all fights but may lose some robberies.

Robberies have always been easier to do than PVP, but - when you say your robbing someonewith 25K defence - is that what shows up in their rob defence screen, and if so, do you win 100% robberies?

procsyzarc
01-11-2012, 01:25 PM
Robberies have always been easier to do than PVP, but - when you say your robbing someonewith 25K defence - is that what shows up in their rob defence screen, and if so, do you win 100% robberies?

That is refering to someone with no defence building so that is the value that shows on both their profile and the defence screen. Yes I do

Duke.0
01-11-2012, 02:37 PM
No dude, Peacock and Jihy found out the true affect def buildings have using the 'mafia defence' goals. The best thingto do is just build multiple lvl 1 turrets, gattlin guns, or missile turretts as you get the full defence at level 1.




@Anubis, sorry but i disagree with you on this. I have been following CC Mark's statement that to prevent a robbery the defense buildings are the most important thing, followed by maximum mafia for your level and then items/skill points last. I really could care less if they are added into your overall Mafia Defense when you defend a fight from a rival. The main goal of defense buildings is to defend robberies. Simple as that, i don't see the need to over analyze specific data and try and find flaws in the in-game numbers. My point is this, defense buildings main purpose are to prevent as many robberies as possible.

If your getting robbed, the solution is simple. Get more defense buildings, level them up a little, get max mafia (if you don't already have it) and add in more defense items and/or skills.

Right now i started to get robbed a little at 93, i have not had this happen in a while, so what am i going to do next? Add more defense buildings, expand again, and level them up. Do i need to know the exact number to the thousandth decimal to determine how the heck the buildings translate to my overall mafia defense? No, its a game and frankly i don't care how it works, but defense buildings defend against robberies.

We got different points of view on this, and that's okay with me. I just feel that defense buildings are very useful regardless if they add to mafia defense or there is diminishing returns, that doesn't matter to me. If having higher level Gatling guns means i get less overall "mafia defense vs attacks" then that's fine by me, as long as it prevents people from robbing me - its all good :)

Anubis
01-11-2012, 03:03 PM
less if they are added into your overall Mafia Defense when you defend a fight from a rival. The main goal of defense buildings is to defend robberies. Simple as that, i don't see the need to over analyze specific data and try and find flaws in the in-game numbers. My point is this, defense buildings main purpose are to prevent as many robberies as possible.

Different opinions aer what make good debates.

What you said is what I went by. I mean, it makes perfect sence that defence buildings would fend off robbers right? That would be the 'right' thing to do.

Funzio unfortunately didn't make this the case (it might have been that way before the major update) but right now its all bs.

Test for yourself. Your PVP and rob results (that do have more leniency) will all depend on what is shown in the att/rob screen of what your rivlas member defence is inj that window.

I'll put this out to you. Post a PVP or Rob win with someone defence window showing more than 2-3k your att. Then, be honest about how much stamina you used and the win/loss ratio.

What Peacock has done is show what buildings do to mafia defence. This can be disproven if there is people that disagree but it need evidence.

procsyzarc
01-11-2012, 03:08 PM
This was pretty much my understanding and maybe I didn't make it clear earlier. Buildings don't add to your numbers displayed on the fight screen (or maybe a small amount as your example) since that is what I would call your fight numbers but are added to your robbery defence since in my case if I attack someone with a fight screen display of 25k defence with no building I will never fail to rob them however if I rob someone who also has a display of 25k but has 10k worth of buildings I will fail 90% of robs. I will test this at lunch but can definitely see from experience buildings make a huge difference to preventing robberies but seem to do nothing to stop attacks.

Duke.0
01-11-2012, 03:24 PM
Different opinions aer what make good debates.

What you said is what I went by. I mean, it makes perfect sence that defence buildings would fend off robbers right? That would be the 'right' thing to do.

Funzio unfortunately didn't make this the case (it might have been that way before the major update) but right now its all bs.

Test for yourself. Your PVP and rob results (that do have more leniency) will all depend on what is shown in the att/rob screen of what your rivlas member defence is inj that window.

I'll put this out to you. Post a PVP or Rob win with someone defence window showing more than 2-3k your att. Then, be honest about how much stamina you used and the win/loss ratio.

What Peacock has done is show what buildings do to mafia defence. This can be disproven if there is people that disagree but it need evidence.

Alright, i'll try and find a person i can test this on.
I have yet to see a person who has 3k more defense than my attack, however im looking.

I'm level 93 with 16833 attack / 19385 defense
That would mean my opponent would have to have 20k defense or higher for me to test this on.

Hm..I'll search and search and try and find a test rival to see this.

MadHatter
01-11-2012, 03:53 PM
Alright, i'll try and find a person i can test this on.
I have yet to see a person who has 3k more defense than my attack, however im looking.

I'm level 93 with 16833 attack / 19385 defense
That would mean my opponent would have to have 20k defense or higher for me to test this on.

Hm..I'll search and search and try and find a test rival to see this.

Dude thats me. And iv already attacked youyou have even posted on my wall about my defence. If i see you again i'll attack the hella outa you so i apear in you news feed. i'll post ob your wall too so you know its me. I really want to know my TRUE defence ;)

downrange
01-11-2012, 04:41 PM
Different opinions aer what make good debates...

What Peacock has done is show what buildings do to mafia defence. This can be disproven if there is people that disagree but it need evidence.

tl;dr version:
I agree that Peacock has shown exactly that; what buildings do to mafia defense. However, I don't know that Peacock or anyone else has made a claim that "base" mafia defense is the only way that defense buildings contribute to the [complex and not fully explained] fight/robbery calculations. It's generally accepted as the main component, but is almost certainly not the only component.

----------


Nobody knows for sure what the calculations involved in the fight mechanics are.

There are some good guesses, and there are some definitive statements in the forum from authoritative sources, but those were purposefully (and understandably) incomplete. Some of the gaps have been filled in with excellent assertions and with some seemingly exact numbers from game data files, but the full picture is definitely not yet complete. It seems to be universally agreed that the mafia attack and defense numbers are the primary component of attack and robbery calculations, and they are the best metric we have. Almost every discussion about fight mechanics centers upon those two numbers, for good reason.

Other values [I'm referencing skill points, here] are paraphrased as having a "multiplier" effect, but the method described could be more appropriately called additive in my opinion, where a multiplication operation is initially involved, but the result is then added to the 'base' mafia attack and defense value. However, not every component that should be involved has been accounted for yet. One that I've not seen discussed in the forum is the in-game-referenced 'defense value' of a money building. I can't seem to find it now that I go looking, but I recall reading in game [some kind of hint or something] that each building has its own defense value and that leveling up the money building itself would increase that value. Has anyone even proposed yet how that affects the robbery calculation? If it does at all, the best indication we have is that it could affect the overall robbery calculation in a similar way to how the skill point calculation is added in.

Other unaccounted for values include the overall item count. And I'd say that player level could also be considered somewhat unaccounted for, but it actually indirectly already is, via that initial multiplication operation involved in the skill point calculation. I think there's still room for player level to also be factored in to other currently unexplored parts of the overall PVP calculations, but I have no evidence to support it. I would like to believe that every number listed on the "results" screen should in some way be factored in, and I don't think they all are yet, even in our player-driven guesswork so far.

Peacock's confirmation of how to exactly calculate the mafia defense is pure awesome! Knowing that number for both types of PVP action, as well as how it can be influenced by player decisions (such as building or upgrading def buildings) is the largest single component of what we all wanted to know. But other unaccounted values remain. I suspect that if I make liberal assumptions based on Duke's text above [apologize if I mischaracterize it, Duke], that he effectively believes that defense buildings could also have a secondary effect added to the base mafia defense, similar to how the skill points get factored in. That position would be directly supported by what Duke paraphrased Mark as saying, and it fits with my assumptions about overall PVP mechanics.

I'm probably overthinking it as usual though.

Duke.0
01-11-2012, 06:02 PM
Dude thats me. And iv already attacked youyou have even posted on my wall about my defence. If i see you again i'll attack the hella outa you so i apear in you news feed. i'll post ob your wall too so you know its me. I really want to know my TRUE defence ;)

I did?
Who are you in game then?

Cooz
01-12-2012, 08:31 AM
I think you're spot-on, Downrange. Excellent points.

That multiplier is something we'll likely never be able to figure out, because it doesn't have to be based on anything rational. For all we know, it's 1.12, because that's the developer's birthday. We also will likely never know where exactly that multiplier is applied. Maybe it's to everything. Maybe each component has its own multiplier.

Peacock figured out a critical piece of the puzzle, but it's definitely not the whole puzzle. Money buildings definitely have their own formulas. In my low-level account, I found it far easier to rob level 5 pawn shops than level 2 houses, or level 3 barbershops. I don't have any evidence to support that claim, but I was robbing a guy with half my attack, I won all four robberies on his level 5 pawn shops, but lost three of five on the houses and barbershops. Variations of that have happened several times.

Logically, it should have been the other way around. The higher level should have a higher defense rating built in, but clearly it is specific to the building.

Lasic
02-02-2012, 06:18 PM
What about defense bonus on def buildings for tycoons? Guard Tower is 3 def when buying it in store, via Wikia (http://crimecityios.wikia.com/wiki/Defense_Buildings) it's 4 def, and when constructed - shows 4def. I'm playing a 10 lvl camper now and tought of building 10 guard towers, upgr them to, let's say, level 3. That would give:
Def: 80 ( 10 * 4+2+2 )
Cost: $45,5k
Time: 3,5h
Place: 90 blocks

That's not super effective, but at 10 lvl, when atm I've got 400A and 621D (6 lvl1 guard towers) which pretty much fullfills my 50 mafia with all but vehicles and steel garrotes. Got no more new buildings to construct, instead of Movie Theaters and Lofts, so got place waiting for those. The 80 boost of REAL not fake defense at cost of $45k and 3 hours waiting total doesn't seem to be a bad idea. That's 13% upgrade. Would be a bit worse, if the def was 60, 10% upgr.
Does the tycoon boost work?

Chukuli
02-02-2012, 06:23 PM
What about Guard Tower for tycoons? Guard Tower is 3 def, via Wikia (http://crimecityios.wikia.com/wiki/Defense_Buildings) it's 4 def. I'm playing a 10 lvl camper now and tought of building 10 guard towers, upgr them to, let's say, level 3. That would give:
Def: 80 ( 10 * 4+2+2 )
Cost: $45,5k
Time: 3,5h
Place: 90 blocks

That's not super effective, but at 10 lvl, when atm I've got 400A and 621D (6 lvl1 guard towers) which pretty much fullfills my 50 mafia with all but vehicles and steel garrotes. Got no more new buildings to construct, instead of Movie Theaters and Lofts, so got place waiting for those. The 80 boost of REAL not fake defense at cost of $45k and 3 hours waiting total doesn't seem to be a bad idea. That's 13% upgrade. Would be a bit worse, if the def was 60, 10% upgr.
Does the tycoon boost work? Cause my game says 3def in market, and 4def when constructed for Guard Tower...

Yes Tycoon class boost 10% on all buildings including money buildings and defense buildings. A non-tycoon class lvl 10 abandoned building give 150 def. A tycoon class lvl 10 abandoned building give 165 def.