Effect of Def buildings and skill points against rob/atk by Guru Peacock again..lol

[Peacock]

I think there is a need to combine everything into this thread to make the search easier

If u r not following up on the previous threads on the effect of def bldgs. U might need to read up on this thread first b4 u read further
http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?14907-Building-Defense-vs.-Attack-Defense-by-jlhy

I will use dog training school as an eg. in my new findings

Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Defense (D) 20 40 70 110 169 220 290 370 460 600
Tycoon D 22 44 77 122 176 242? 319? 407? 506? 660?
contribution Def against rob: 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 110
Contribution Def against atk: 10 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55

Yes the def increment contribution will be halved if u use it to block atks instead of robs. It doesn't matter which class u r in. The same values applies for all 3 classes. I might need Lars help to update the wikipedi for all the bldgs
http://crimecityios.wikia.com/wiki/Defense_Buildings
Conclusion: Its easier to atk than robbing someone

Formula for rob def
mafia def = Contribution Def against rob + def values from all items ur mafia is using
Formula for atk def
mafia def = Contribution Def against atk + def values from all items ur mafia is using

If u look at my eg. lv 1 contribution is the not the same for both atk/rob but the incremental is halved after that.


Att/def Skill points contribution effect towards being atk/rob

At lvl 1, these values are both 1.09 for atk and def, at lvl 100 these values are both 10. It increases at an interval of 0.09 after each lv and it is cap at 10 from lv100-200

eg. If my current lvl is 150. So it's 10 x 300 of skills pts (if i invested 300 into def or atk) = 3000 extra which cannot be viewed from the fight/rob screen

How to pick someone u can fight/rob and make sure it won't come back and look for u.

First u have to find out what ur atk/rob def is by manually cal. out the value (these values cannot be viewed from ur profile) or ask ur friend to atk/rob u then tell u the values.
eg. For my case, I have 40-45k of def in both aspects so I make sure my opponet doesn't has a mafia atk of more than 45k which can be viewed from his profile. Then he will not succeed his revenge on me

Tks to everyone for contributing into this thread (jihy, jimmy, Lars, syn, khung). The riddle is finally resolved for all.

[DCjG]

Sounds good but the problem is... Everyone knows robbing is more successful than attacking. So you're either forgetting something in your calculation or the calculation is just wrong.

[Peacock]

I nv include the +/- random factor in my cal. I was suspecting the random factor is greater for robs. Any views.

[Matthew91188]

If these calculations were correct than what would be the point in having the buildings defense go to 660? Now I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I just don't get the point of showing false defenses like that. You know? Like the body guard agency, youll be rocking 825? Defense as a tycoon but you're only going to be able to use at more 55?

[Peacock]

U r right. Mathew, it's false representation. I can use 35k mafia atk to fight someone with 42k def in his profile. But the fight screen only shows he has 25k mafia def. and it's true, I didn't loss any explosives in all 10wins.

I'm pretty sure the atk follows the formula above. As for robbing, I've limited data as I'm a pvp player. I need feedback like mine atk is 10k and I can rob someone with 12k def on rob screen. I'm very sure the atk screen is accurate, I still have on the rob screen as ppl tend to find that are much easier

[Matthew91188]

I remember one player with enormous amounts of level 10 guard towers that had 20k defense, when I robbe him is only showed 5500. This is terrible misrepresentation.

[Peacock]

Good feedback mathew!
So this is the misconcept where ppl start to believe that they can actually rob someone with 20k profile def using their 10k atk right?

[deuces]

currently robbing someone with 10319 profile defense, their rob defense shows as 7372, my attack is 5915. Took me 3 attempts to get 2 clean hits on their church.

they have 5 level 8/9 agencys and a lot of upgraded defense buildings. their attack is only 4969.

we are both level 73.

[jlhy]

I posted this in another thread, it has pics and same data your using Peacock.

I used this player because his defense buildings and levels were easy to see.
665

This player has 14644 Profile Defense.

In his hood he has:
1 level 6 Guard Tower - 73 defense (10.5 rob defense)
1 level 5 Machine Gun Turret - 44 defense (15 rob defense)
1 level 2 Machine Gun Turret - 11 defense (6.5 rob defense)
1 level 3 Safe House - 35 defense (18 rob defense)
1 level 7 Abandoned Building - 69 defense (8 rob defense)

Here's pics of the defense buildings in this players hood:
666667668

I attacked and robbed this player one time each to get the fight result screen and rob result screen.
669670

The fight result screen displayed 14441 and the rob result screen displayed 14470.

Taking the total defense of the defense buildings 232 (73+44+11+35+69=232) and subtracting it from the players profile defense (14644-232=14412) gives us the value of the players defense without the profile defense.

Now take the value 14412 and add it to the rob value 58 (10.5+15+6.5+18+8=58). 14412+58=14470 which is the result displayed in the rob result screen.

Whats interesting is if you take the rob defense value (58) and half it (29), then add 29 to the value without profile defense (14412+29=14441) you get 14441 which is the value displayed in the fight result screen.

[Peacock]

Thanks deuces. So u find that ur robbing starts to get shakey when ur opponent' def on rob screen is more than ur mafia atk. there's also an invisible skill pt contribution to ur mafia atk

Pls remb we must use data to further the discussion on this topic. We cannot just base on our feelings. It will not get us anywhere. I hope everyone can chip in some data.

PS: at HL, most of us are playing 12/24/48 money bldgs. We r not very concern with our rob def. this is to make sure our def explosives r intact. We r more concern with our mafia def against atk. But I would like to contribute something back to this forum

[deuces]

Why are H/L players so concerned about being attacked? Does everyone try to avoid keeping money in the bank? If not, just deposit often and getting attacked is close to a non issue.

[whocareswhatmynameis]

Why are H/L players so concerned about being attacked? Does everyone try to avoid keeping money in the bank? If not, just deposit often and getting attacked is close to a non issue.

my guess is some are concerned about keeping a near perfect attack win rate.

[Peacock]

Why are H/L players so concerned about being attacked? Does everyone try to avoid keeping money in the bank? If not, just deposit often and getting attacked is close to a non issue.

Lol.. Oh I didnt specify clearly. I mean those very strong H/L. They r not concern with the money they lost. It's the lost in fights they chunk out on their profile. I would say almost everyone i saw within my range are very arrogant and proud players. But I don't mind chunk out losses to get more understanding

[whocareswhatmynameis]

Thanks Peacock for the outstanding investigative work. I am certain you invested considerable amount of time on this project.

I have two thoughts:
1) Your analysis and conclusion will alter the perception of defense buildings. I would be surprised if anyone would invest extensively in defense buildings from now onwards. I feel sorry for those who have built and upgraded bodyguard buildings and other gold defense buildings. As for me, I have little over a dozen guard towers and a few abandoned buildings. I regret the hours and days I spent building and upgrading them.

2) I have a feeling that the current defense building computation in fights and robberies may turn out to be a major game glitch. It just doesn't make sense for game developers to actively deceive players. One need only look back at CC Mark's comments on the topic in this forum. If in fact, this is a bug which has evaded detection so far, you may have brought this FUNZIO's attention. If that is the case, expect significant changes in the coming days. Otherwise, this is bad business practice and FUNZIO will get flak from customers.

[Syn]

Thanks Peacock for the outstanding investigative work. I am certain you invested considerable amount of time on this project.

I have two thoughts:
1) Your analysis and conclusion will alter the perception of defense buildings. I would be surprised if anyone would invest extensively in defense buildings from now onwards. I feel sorry for those who have built and upgraded bodyguard buildings and other gold defense buildings. As for me, I have little over a dozen guard towers and a few abandoned buildings. I regret the hours and days I spent building and upgrading them.

2) I have a feeling that the current defense building computation in fights and robberies may turn out to be a major game glitch. It just doesn't make sense for game developers to actively deceive players. One need only look back at CC Mark's comments on the topic in this forum. If in fact, this is a bug which has evaded detection so far, you may have brought this FUNZIO's attention. If that is the case, expect significant changes in the coming days. Otherwise, this is bad business practice and FUNZIO will get flak from customers.

I have hope that this is a bug. What I want and what is reality is usually different though.

I have spent a total of 375 gold on defense alone. If this information is correct, I don't know what actions I will take. For now, I am going to wait till 2012 to make a decision.

[DCjG]

I don't have numbers but I do hit a lot of people at times that are at the edge of my ability it seems. On those, I seem to be able to rob more easily than attack. While I suppose it could still be random due to many people not having much defense buildings in general (thus the delta between attacks and robberies wouldn't be very big in either case), it might conversely imply a heavier weight on the attack skill points for robberies. I imagine the only way to test that out would be a large data set of identical attempts on both attacks and robberies.

Good work getting the base calculations nailed though. Too bad figuring out the modifiers seems near impossible by deduction like the base stats.

[dudeman]

Hmm.... This leads me to the conclusion that you can figure out who to rob or attack with minimal losses or chance of successful revenge.

I have been successfully doing that for weeks without stressing over formulas. Not bragging or anything, I'm just saying that if you really want to know what kind of stats to look for in a rival, a small amount of trial and error can produce very good long term results.

I use an 80% rule but, like all rules, that one can be broken too. You just have to know what to look for.

[Duke.0]

Could one also argue the point that Defense Buildings have no impact on fights whatsoever?

Case #1:
Rival Stevo - level 85, max mafia
10081 total mafia defense
9988 defense shown in fight screen

In stevo's hood shows 1 x level 8 machine gun so it is either 102 or 93 defense.
10081-9988 = 93
Due to the exact numbers here, it would appear that Stevo's Building Defense has no impact on his defense for a fight and its also clear Stevo is not a Tycoon.
-----------------------------------

Unless there is some "hidden" modifier besides the skill points. The numbers in game seem to indicate that the defense buildings don't add anything to defend an attack by a rival. They appear to only defense to ward off robberies.

EDIT: I'll try and add more cases tomorrow..its 3 am and i'm tired, i'll see if i can analyze this more and come up with more examples so the sample size is much larger then just one person.

[Anubis]

This is really quite disturbing data. Due to the time and money I invested in defence, part of me wants to hope or believe that defence buildings can not just add those small numbers. The only piece of evidence I can put forward to support that is the fact that with 17500att I can still lose to ppl with 14000att defence.

The numbers obviously don't lie however so this leads me to some possible conclusions based on what peacock, jihy and others have worked on.

1. Gold buyers get even more of an advantage who buy equipment.

2. I have 8 Agencies level 8-10, 21 Towers level 5-7, and a level 9 Machine gun turret. If I sold my turrett and agencies I would lose little (actual?) defence and gain considerable amount of $$$ I could spend on defence equipment like 100 Riot Shields that only cost $32.500 and give 12 defence. I would also gain considerable space to spend on income buildings thus saving money on future expansions for a while, OR I could layer the space with some cheapish Sniper's Dens.


With the data provided we can all carry on the testing because I don't want to sell the time I put into defence bulidings without being 100%.

[Syn]

With the data provided we can all carry on the testing because I don't want to sell the time I put into defence bulidings without being 100%.

Agreed, I am at a loss of what to do if this isn't patched or somehow changed. I have 15 agencies, levels 7-8, and that is just too much time and money to be all for nothing. I hope we get official answers soon.

[Matthew91188]

I emailed funzio linking this thread because like you Syn I have a lot of gold in agencies, and of this information is true... I would like that gold back as it is false representation :( I would like it to just be a glitch

[Matthew91188]

Also it seems the best logic with these numbers would be to build significant amounts of 2x2 defense buildings and leave them at level 1 as you lose lots of money upgrading it. Like Gatling guns and missile launchers.

[KoolB]

This is a truly awesome analysis...
After reading I went and did some testing on my own and can confirm the following equation (proposed by jlhy above) holds...
assuming...
Rob Building Defense = Rob Screen Defense - Mafia Defense
Attack Building Defense = Attack Screen Defense - Mafia Defense; where
Mafia Defense = Profile Defense - Headline Building Defense
then Rob Building Defense = 2*Attack Building Defense
...
In English... your buildings contributes exactly twice (after 0.5 rounding if required) to preventing robberies than preventing attacks...

...as to how the Headline Building Defense translates into Rob Building Defense and Attack Building Defense... it does seem Peacock and jlhy are on the right track but I keep getting a random deviation... not sure why...

So... in even simpler English... Defense Buildings are a waste of time... and Upgrading them is like hahaha...
I could have used this information 70 levels back... but I do seriously feel for the guys who've used gold in Defense Buildings...

The problem is... and I just noticed... Funzio does give a hint for what its worth... when you lose a robbery you are asked to ADD Defense Buildings not UPGRADE them.. maybe its their way of making the game quirky or maybe its just their way of selling some gold... go figure...

[JimmyShines]

If this is not fixed, I will be demanding my gold back for all the useless def buildings I purchased.

Hard part for funzio is, if this is a bug, they will need to fix it in the client application, and since they do not force players to update there client app (i.e. you can still play this game using version 1.3.1) how can this possibly work out for everyone.... waiting to hear from them, as we all are.

[Max Power]

Another player here heavily invested into agencies.

Not gonna sell them yet till I see how this turns out, but I am a little bit disturbed by all this.

[Matthew91188]

Agreed jimmy, I do know I'm not spending anything on defense buildings until this is resolved

[Lars]

I am also disturbed even if I did not invest gold. The lost time certainly feels bad enough. I guess it is a bug -- does not really make sense to me to misguide the players here with the listed defense numbers. If they fix it it by simply changing rob defense to the listed defense numbers, well, robberies will suddenly get much harder. Which would be a good thing for me. :)

Anyway, hoping for an answer by Funzio real soon. Until that I'll refrain from defense buildings investments (except perhaps some level 1 gatlings).

[Anubis]

...as to how the Headline Building Defense translates into Rob Building Defense and Attack Building Defense... it does seem Peacock and jlhy are on the right track but I keep getting a random deviation... not sure why...

I'm beginning to think this is the skill points affect, and the random chance at win/loss that none of us know.


This is a game changing discovery and a complete scam from funzio. The data and information provided fits perfectly into my experiances. I had problems robbing a guy with 3K more defence than my attack, but he had 0 defence buildings (and 100 Turbo Vipers adding to his 18K all mafia defence).

Funzio need to either fix this or providee full gold/upgrade costs back to players who request it. Waiting for Marks responce to this.

[Anubis]

We initially thought Rob defence was: 1/2 Mafia equipment defence + all building defence.

That is still enough for me to want to invest fully in defence buildings but it seems that theory was false.

[JimmyShines]

We initially thought Rob defence was: 1/2 Mafia equipment defence + all building defence.

That is still enough for me to want to invest fully in defence buildings but it seems that theory was false.

That wasn't a theory, that was what the funzio employee (CC Mark) posted on the forums, which makes all of this even more disturbing.

[Anubis]

Well, I am 100% convinced after testing this out.

My Attack 17400

My Rivals Profile defence 40000
Profiles Rob defence 20500
He has a hood littered with 48 agencies lvl7+

I robbed his chappels, LMs (for testing) and adult theatres with complete ease. 10/10



WTF Funzio

[Anubis]

The poor lvl 131 guy has spent much RM, time + $$$ investment raising his defences and all for nothing.

I hope Mark and Funzio have a good explanation for all of this.

[Duke.0]

We initially thought Rob defence was: 1/2 Mafia equipment defence + all building defence.

That is still enough for me to want to invest fully in defence buildings but it seems that theory was false.

CC Mark posted that.

And i'm thinking now, Defense buildings are not used in fights at all. Just look at the attack screen, no defense buildings are used in the outcomes.
They help against robberies and not much else from what i can tell.

[TenderPlacebo]

I still think they have an effect on fights. On several occasions I have robbed a persons hood, say like 8 buildings without a loss. After that I try and attack them and lose, so what's with that. I would love to know what part they play in attacks compared to robberies.

[Peacock]

Ok I think most of u already found that the formula fits in perfectly well.
And if u r still hoping that this is a glitch. I am sad to say that the ans is definitely a fat NO. This is just a business strategy.

I once send an email to query about the unstability on win/loss after the update and I ask them whether is it due to the skill points multiplier as mentioned by Mark. And the support don't even know that the skill points can play a multiplier effect. Only the H/L personnel know the mechanism behind

Next after the update, the fight/rob screen was edited. (They dun wan to cheat us blindly, u see my pt? The value is on the screen, it's just that u guys nv figure it out urself.

Why r they doing that? If U r going to hv an atk greater than ur current lv opponent's def is practically very difficult.
eg. U hv 17k/25k, ur current opponents will be ard this range. How r u going to suddenly get an atk more than 25k? If I can't beat him and he can't beat me. What r we going to do next? We will jus be playing simcity in CC or give up on the game. So they adjusted the contribution due to def bldgs so that we can fight one another and stay in the game. Ya..more purchases for gold.

This question on rob/atk has been asked more than once in this forum. They try to avoid ans us becoz they knew that if we know the modifier, there will be chaos. Life is like that. Sometimes we hv to pay to learn. They indeed hv some smarties working for them

Hey Matthew, I dun think u will get a straight ans from the support. They ain't going to do anything

[Duke.0]

@Peacock
What is the final conclusion about defense buildings?

Are they useless to make? Reasons?

[Anubis]

@Peacock
What is the final conclusion about defense buildings?

Are they useless to make? Reasons?

With respect Duke, read the thread in it entirety.

[Anubis]

Why r they doing that? If U r going to hv an atk greater than ur current lv opponent's def is practically very difficult.
eg. U hv 17k/25k, ur current opponents will be ard this range. How r u going to suddenly get an atk more than 25k? If I can't beat him and he can't beat me. What r we going to do next? We will jus be playing simcity in CC or give up on the game. So they adjusted the contribution due to def bldgs so that we can fight one another and stay in the game. Ya..more purchases for gold.

If the original answer that Mark gave 'was' correct --- being Defending Robberies = 1/2 Mafia defence + building defence then things would be ok. That would give defenders enough of a challenge in time, RM and $$$ to make a defence that robbers can not break through. If buildings paid no defence against attackers that would be ok, but their position in fending off robbers was the perfect position def buildings could have.

Right now we have been robbed by Funzio in all areas of PVP to the extent the gold, $$$, and time we put in our defence buildings means precisely nothing. If this is a glitch then I welcome the hopeful update that is comming to fix this ASAP.

[Peacock]

Def bldgs are practically useless as of now.. Just get them at lv 1 if u want. U will get full amt. value. Get 50 gatlings first if u want to continue the game, $54k can't get any valuable items more than 25def . Missile turret is taking too long to build, Security center and surveillance center are both taking up too much space, U could hv 2 snipers instead. Sniper is the next one after u r done with gatling.

[whocareswhatmynameis]

getting 50 level 1 gatlings is a reasonable strategy. it's cheaper than buying weapons to boost defenses.

[Matthew91188]

50 x 25 is 1250 defense and costs 2.7 million and takes up 200 squares of space, in reality they're completely worthless

[Duke.0]

I just re-read the thread and now i understand whats going on :)
I currently have my buildings aligned in my hood to accommodate for 50 Gatling guns, and i'm up to about 20-25 of them. Most are level 1 but about 9 of the guns are level 2. I guess i'm not going to upgrade them at all past level 1 after reading this thread.

I don't think they are useless because i have not lost a robbery in a while since building a lot of Gatling guns.

Initially, part of me was really confused because i remember what CC Mark said about defense buildings and how they are calculated into your mafia defense against attacks and robberies. This thread just shatters that statement by CCMark it seems.

As far as what defense buildings to build.

The sniper den is 5x5, is the surveillance center 6x6? (i'm not that high of a level to know this yet)

What about Muay Thai buildings? I got 8 of those too, all are levels 3 or higher.

I know people like Nycpizzalover has like 50 muay thai buildings all level 3-4 and 50 Gatling guns all level 3 too.
This kind of kills his strategy for defense.

[Peacock]

50 x 25 is 1250 defense and costs 2.7 million and takes up 200 squares of space, in reality they're completely worthless

No Matthew, we must look at it this way. Now in order to gain an extra 1250 defense is no longer an easy job. At this point of time galting still give u the best value

[whocareswhatmynameis]

50 x 25 is 1250 defense and costs 2.7 million and takes up 200 squares of space, in reality they're completely worthless

setting aside space and time requirements, gatlings are more cost effective than any weapon when it comes to providing defense. i can give you an example. there is an armor weapon at lvl 112 (don't know the name since i haven't unlocked it, but has some penetrating xray icon) that gives 1/24 att/def points. as you can see, defense points are comparable with gatling (24 vs 25). but "xray shield" (pardon my ignorance) costs 1.5 million while gatling costs only 54 thousand. even if you consider the cost of expanding your hood to build gatlings, it is still more cost effective!

[Matthew91188]

Maybe not quite useless, but still less effective than what we were led to believe

[Ram]

Should I buy the bodyguard agencies?

[Matthew91188]

Not at this time ram

[JimmyShines]

Should I buy the bodyguard agencies?

Based on the info in this thread, no, complete waste of REAL money, no building defense is worth real money.

[Ram]

Not at this time ram


Based on the info in this thread, no, complete waste of REAL money, no building defense is worth real money.

So I will just stock up on the top money buildings and I will make a lot of cash!

After that I can get some good equipments ;)

[Anubis]

--CCMark, please input on this thread.

If this is a glitch then thats cool,
If this is the devs intent then you have a lot of explaining and potential refunding to do.

[Syn]

--CCMark, please input on this thread.

If this is a glitch then thats cool,
If this is the devs intent then you have a lot of explaining and potential refunding to do.

I had to walk away and look at both sides of this.

On our side (the players) we complain just about everything. One patch, something gets fixed and another broken. We always seem to find the broken parts. Whether it be loot drop rates, PVP calculations, more decorations, more buildings, explosives, it is always something.

On their side (the developers) they seem to try to fix as much as they can as fast as possible. This results in mistakes being made in the code. I have seen bits and pieces of it from what people copy and paste here, stuff might as well be in Japanese to me. So it must be pretty easy to make a mistake, even for a seasoned programmer. Also, they have like 50 something people on staff? I can only imagine how frustrated they must get.

Don't get me wrong, i'm still upset. I feel I have been mislead on how important defense buildings are. Of course, this could all be one big mistake. Who knows?

Funzio support has always come through for me. It might take a few days at max, but I have always gotten a response from them. Usually within 24 hours too. I have faith that if this was intentional that they will be able to compensate in some way. Whether it be gold refund, money, time credit, I don't know. I'm not going to make a rash decision until I hear what the developers have to say.

[Syn]

One more thing, this is probably on the side burner for them right now. A lot of people can't even get in the game anymore. If I were them, I'd focus on getting the game back up. If you take a look here (http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?15042-If-you-are-unable-to-log-in-or-download-the-app-after-the-last-update), they are working on that now.

Some people (http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?14833-Game-cant-start-!!!) are getting nasty about it too, which solves absolutely nothing. I would be upset if my iPod or iPhone broke as a result as well. Would I post on the forums harsh words demanding refunds on my hardware? No, that's stupid. Why don't you email support with a kind worded email and wait for a reply first. Nobody responds to threats well, I just thought that was common sense.

[Anubis]

Funzio support has always come through for me. It might take a few days at max, but I have always gotten a response from them. Usually within 24 hours too.

Respect Syn, as always. Funzio customer services is top notch. I am sure that can be seconded by anyone who has emailed them (whether it takes 1day or 1week to sort the problem out).




This is bigger than customer services because it affects the way hundreds of players have approched the game. It's not just about approach. We have played, spent RM, time, $$$ on aspects of the game the devs ('inc'CCMark) have informed us about.


The guy I tested the info on who had 30-40 agencies spent RM$50-$100 on his defence buildings, not to mention the ingame time and upgrade costs. There is a reason players are some want angry and want an an explanation.

[Syn]

Respect Syn, as always. Funzio customer services is top notch. I am sure that can be seconded by anyone who has emailed them (whether it takes 1day or 1week to sort the problem out).

This is bigger than customer services because it affects the way hundreds of players have approched the game. It's not just about approach. We have played, spent RM, time, $$$ on aspects of the game the devs ('inc'CCMark) have informed us about.

The guy I tested the info on who had 30-40 agencies spent RM$50-$100 on his defence buildings, not to mention the ingame time and upgrade costs. There is a reason players are some want angry and want an an explanation.

Anubis, much respect back as well muchacho. The above posts of mine weren't directly at you. Just my feelings on this. Yes we are angry, yes we deserve an explanation. In the meantime, I think we all need to just take a quick breath and wait for the devs to catch up. I have spent close to $80 on gold so far, I don't want that all to be for not. ($80 may not seem much to ya'll, but that is a carton and a half of smokes for me!)

[Max Power]

I bet Funzio is second guessing the decision to give all of us that detail screen after robs and fights....LOL!

I have 21 agencies, all level 7 or higher. You can guess how I want this to go. My entire strategy was to build a strong defense before going nuts on my economy.

[khung003]

I foresee this:
http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?10255-Reset-game/page2

[Joeycool]

hmm. Interesting thread.

Guess thats all my body guard agency gold wasted!

On the plus side when you're out and about robbing if you come across a high level player with a lot of defence buildings you should just go straight in and rob them!

[Anubis]

Bump, until CCMark responds to this.

[Joeycool]

Just as a bit of a foot note to this thread... If people want to cheaply and quickly expand their defences its worth a look at explosives. They are pretty cheap but give good boosts for your buck!

Looking at players I come against hardly any one seems to be using them and I think we could be missing a trick here. Especially when you consider how poor defensive buildings appear to be.

[Max Power]

Just as a bit of a foot note to this thread... If people want to cheaply and quickly expand their defences its worth a look at explosives. They are pretty cheap but give good boosts for your buck!

Looking at players I come against hardly any one seems to be using them and I think we could be missing a trick here. Especially when you consider how poor defensive buildings appear to be.

Well, when people 50 levels above you can attack you all night, those explosives go away pretty quick.

[Joeycool]

Fair enough. Anyway dont want to deviate from the thread. Just a thought.

[KoolB]

Some more thoughts...
There are quite a few people roaming around with empty hoods... and I actually found someone with Money Buildings but no Defense Buildings !!! (thats rare)... anyways coming back to the main point...

when you rob / attack such people you find... since Headline Building Defense is anyways zero...
Rob Screen Defense = Attack Screen Defense = Mafia Defense = Profile Defense
this conclusively proves that your Mafia Defense contributes 100% to saving you from robberies and attacks...

A further interesting experiment would be to find someone with ONLY Level 1 Defense Buildings and rob / attack that person... logically if the equations proposed by Peacock and jlhy hold then you should see...
Rob Screen Defense = Attack Screen Defense = Profile Defense = Mafia Defense + Headline Building Defense
as the hypothesis is that Level 1 Defense Buildings also contribute fully...

at Level 71 I have tried all day but cannot find anyone who has Defense Buildings but hasn't upgraded them ... if anyone here is in a sufficiently lower level or has a low-level camper account pls try and let us know...

[Anubis]

Just as a bit of a foot note to this thread... If people want to cheaply and quickly expand their defences its worth a look at explosives. They are pretty cheap but give good boosts for your buck!

Looking at players I come against hardly any one seems to be using them and I think we could be missing a trick here. Especially when you consider how poor defensive buildings appear to be.

Explosives definately have their part in the game. Your mobs can each equip 1 gun, 1 melee, 1 explosive, 1 armor, 1 vehicle. Using them to hit the next att or def goal is usful, especially because 500 att only costs 50K. Peacock in a recent thread explained another great use for them for a certain occasion, but once you see HL's there is no point in defensive until your towards the final few levels to really buff your mafia out. Remember at that stage income is massive so the expensive explosives are worth it if your stats support it and the cost is minimal.


I keep seeing hoods full of 30+ Agencies and other leveled up def buildings. I really feel sorry for them. I really hope this is a bug because it means some people have spent RM and their ingame time playing defensive when right now there is no such thing as playing CC defensively.

[Peacock]

Sorry made some careless mistakes. I will use dog sch as an eg.


I will use dog training school as an eg. again

Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Defense (D) 20 40 70 110 169 220 290 370 460 600
Tycoon D 22 44 77 122 176 242? 319? 407? 506? 660?
contribution Def against rob: 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 110
Contribution Def against atk: 10 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55


lvl 1 def bldgs play different effects against rob and atk. If u use it to block atks, its only half the value worth. They don't start off with the same base value. (Ya.. 50 lv 1 gatling turrets are only worth 625 def against atk)

[whocareswhatmynameis]

...

lvl 1 def bldgs play different effects against rob and atk. If u use it to block atks, its only half the value worth. They don't start off with the same base value. (Ya.. 50 lv 1 gatling turrets are only worth 625 def against atk)

according to your calculation, the cost effectiveness of gatling is halved while defending robberies. this makes its armor equivalent- riot shield (12 defense for 32.5K vs gatling's 12.5 for 54K)- a better alternative. however, if you have maxed out on your weapons and mafia defenses, i recommend the gatling to give you extra defense. besides, weapon upgrades largely follow marginal increments, so you will not get the total defense amount (12 in the case of riot shield) provided your entire mafia is already equipped with less powerful armor weapons.

[Rarelibra]

So it would be really nice to find out the effectiveness - since some of us did sink a little $ into bodyguards and if it is more effective to, say, have better mafia defense than it is worth selling off the bodys and investing in better defensive items.

On a side note - so if a person invests in 100s of better items, we do not get the full effect for the upgrade? Does getting, say, an M4 not negate a machine pistol (since the M4 stats are much, much better)? Sorry if this was covered before.

[Crime City Mark]

The math in here is not correct at all, FYI.

[khung003]

The math in here is not correct at all, FYI.

then enlighten us.

[Syn]

The math in here is not correct at all, FYI.

All hail CCMark! This doesn't mean good or bad, but it doesn't mean my Agencies are worthless either!

[JimmyShines]

The math in here is not correct at all, FYI.

Whether the math here is correct or not, the obersvations of forum members shows the numbers in here to be correct, so in essense your saying the att screen shows incorrect numbers, well isn't that nice as well. So, nothing but bugs, good luck to us all???

[Max Power]

Well, since the fight screen showing weapons has been known to be incorrect, I suppose this isn't a surprise.

[K@le]

I have a second account and that 1 is lvl 93 i attacked my head account who has 21366 def in my profil,e after attacking my head account in the screen says 16020 and robbing 16988 so i loose really a lot in def !!!
I have the following def buildings

11 bodyguard agencies at level 7 and up,
20 watch towers who are minimal level 5-7
2 muai that that are lvl 3 and 4
1 guard dog at lvl 3
38 gatling guns at lvl 1 and 4 at lvl 2
1 security center at lvl 1

This thread means i can sell all defense buildings accept gatling guns.....pfff this really sucks big big time and then they come tell here the math in here is not correct.
I think it is totaly correct, better spent on equipment then on buildings.
Since 2 days i am experimenting too, people with same def as my atk i look in their hood if they have a lot of defend buildings i can attack easily, but if they dont have def buildings in their hood with the stats the same then i loose the fight.

Peacock and Ihly thnx for this refreshing thread, no more RM for Funzio since i spent so much gold for nothing tssss......

[Dorian Gray]

The math in here is not correct at all, FYI.

I find it impossible to convey on how many levels this response troubles me. :(

[Matthew91188]

Matthew,

The numbers being thrown around in that thread is not accurate at all. You are getting your full building defense when you're being attacked.

Regards,

J


This is my response from funzio email, I asked him to explain, waiting on a response.

[Dorian Gray]

Matthew,

The numbers being thrown around in that thread is not accurate at all. You are getting your full building defense when you're being attacked.

Regards,

J


This is my response from funzio email, I asked him to explain, waiting on a response.

So we're back to the fight results screen being wrong. Great!?!?

[JimmyShines]

So we're back to the fight results screen being wrong. Great!?!?

Not really, cause you still have people with low att values smashing your high defense... and this thread was all about explaining this issue, by showing that the actually def values calculated in a fight are way lower than they should be.

Basically, so far, funzio has not provided any valid explaination as to what is going on, and you probably won't see one.

[Dorian Gray]

I just hope I never have to ask Mark for directions if I'm lost. I don't think I would find "Well all I can tell you is you're going the wrong way." very helpful.

[MadHatter]

I put forth that forum member Dorian grey is noob pretended he knows how the game works...

:( that makes me a sad Pander

[Peacock]

The math in here is not correct at all, FYI.

Thanks for ur feedback Mark. Yes I agreed its not that correct because I still notice some slight deviation especially robbings. Often u can use a lower atk to rob someone with a higher def on the rob screen. But most of the time if we follow the atk fight screen result when we atk someone, we are able to explain why we loss/win. I think we r close to it if not there.

Well since the support says that the def bldgs actually contribute a greater amt. than what we think, let's keep them for the time being.

PS: I saw Payam using his ~60k of mafia atk robbing/fighting Bill successfully who has more than 100k of def reflected in his profile.

[Duke.0]

Thanks mark for the reply on this.

If the math here is wrong, does it mean there is a problem with the numbers in the fight screen?

From my observation, the building defense is not calculated in the fight screen. What is shown is only mafia defense.

[deuces]

i have a defense goal now (7500) anything you want me to test out?

[K@le]

Thanks mark for the reply on this.

If the math here is wrong, does it mean there is a problem with the numbers in the fight screen?

From my observation, the building defense is not calculated in the fight screen. What is shown is only mafia defense.

If the defend would be right but only the numbers are wrong how can you explain that you can attack a guy who has 5k more def then my atk and his hood is full with def buildings and then in the fight screen he has 6k less def !! and he loss all 10 fights from me.
If i atk a guy with 5k more def then my atk and he has no defend buildings then i loose all the fights.
At this moment i have 15k atk on lvl 100, yesterday i could see a rival who was lvl 134 and his def was 23k.
I see his hood was full with watch towers i counted 49 all lvl 7 and up also he had 5 abandond buildings all lvl 10 and maybe 40 machine gun turrets and lots of other defense buildings.
I attacked him and in the fight screen he had only left 10929 def and i beat him all 10 fights !!

[khung003]

Tell you what I think, the more I read the more I get confused. If you keep asking Funzio, not only they give you no better info, but also they make you mad by denying whatever you think is right.

Just trust in 1 & only 1 source, from players who spent countless hours to explore the secrets & tell you without any benefits, that the only way to find out the truth.

[Anubis]

PS: I saw Payam using his ~60k of mafia atk robbing/fighting Bill successfully who has more than 100k of def reflected in his profile.

Gayams defence is practically impossible to penetrate due to the fact it is all Mafia defence. Should direct Bill to this thread. Its just more proof that this game is all about mafia defence and if you spend enough gold you will never get att'd or robbed.

I'm sorry but Marks responce does not mean anything. You cannot drop a one-liner on this topic. Maybe there is something slightly wrong in Pea & Jihy's calculations but after the work they and others put into I am succesfully using this information to Rob players with over 35K defence. I only have 17.6K att.

[Rarelibra]

Any more info on defense buildings?

I am halted in continuing upgrades before knowing more, as it is a considerable investment of almost $19m and 56 days total to upgrade my bodyguards from lvl 7 to lvl 10.

[Matthew91188]

Nothing yet?

[Peacock]

Same findings as of now. ATM U shld halt ur upgradings on def bldgs. I find that it's still ok to get it to lv3. The time taken is not long & U double the def against rob/atk. Anything beyond that it's a waste. U could hv channel ur resources into money bldgs instead

[kusio]

In the beginning, I was spending gold for items until I learned that mafia items only count 1/2 towards robbery defense. So I shifted focus to spending gold on what I considered to be the best option for defense buildings (all things being equal). With this development, my gold-spending days are over. I suggest you all stop buying gold as well. There is no 'truth in advertising' at Funzio. You definitely don't get what you pay for.

Funzio's fraudulent business practices have, I think, made them vulnerable to a class-action lawsuit. Put me first in line.

[Rarelibra]

One thing I have noticed is that the best investment for defense IMHO are explosives. If you buy enough for your mafia size, you will fight with all five items each (2,500 total) and it will really help with offense and defense.

[Joeycool]

One thing I have noticed is that the best investment for defense IMHO are explosives. If you buy enough for your mafia size, you will fight with all five items each (2,500 total) and it will really help with offense and defense.

I bought 479 defence explosives. Flash Grenades.

A player who's attack was 2k lower than mine spent all night robbing me.

I lost over 350 explosives costing me 500,000 odd $

The attacker still managed to rob me and win every other attack

Defensive explosives are nothing more than a deterrent and not very effective at all I dont think.

If a higher level player attacks you you will also loose nearly all of your explosives, and still loose.

[Max Power]

I bought 479 defence explosives. Flash Grenades.

A player who's attack was 2k lower than mine spent all night robbing me.

I lost over 350 explosives costing me 500,000 odd $

The attacker still managed to rob me and win every other attack

Defensive explosives are nothing more than a deterrent and not very effective at all I dont think.

If a higher level player attacks you you will also loose nearly all of your explosives, and still loose.

I agree. It's cheaper just to lose the robbery without em. Money down the drain.

[Joeycool]

you told me that would happen Max... And you were spot on!

You have to experiment with these things though. But for other people who are thinking of experimenting with them... Take it from me and Max, You would be wasting your £

[Nudie]

I have to agree with Max and Joey. Defensive explosives are a huge waste of money.

[Tramp Stamp]

I'll add a "me too" to defensive explosives. I went on a spending spree in anticipation of the "explosives now last even longer" change, but it hasn't happened. Meanwhile I've lost nearly 50% over the last day or so.

[Peacock]

Def explosives shld only be stocked when u hv got rid of all the short hrs money bldgs. It will show it's best effect when u only hv 12/24/48hr bldgs in ur hood. U only start to purchase in bulk when ur actual def is above 20k (the real value, not the fake one) because ATM not many players have more than 25k atk

[Joeycool]

My real defence value is 25839

I still lost all my explosives to a lower level attack. They are worthless.

PS. I do have a range of buildings. My 12, 24 48 are mostly synched. (a few are slightly out due to upgades) But I also have 6, 8, 3 hour buildings that I have no intention of selling because of high returns. Ie. Wedding chapel. So they are always going to get hit when I sleep.

I'd rather take the hit on them than waste 500K on explosives.

My bit ticket buildings are my synched 12 24 48's and they never get hit as I always collect them on time!

[Rarelibra]

My real defence value is 25839

I still lost all my explosives to a lower level attack. They are worthless.

PS. I do have a range of buildings. My 12, 24 48 are mostly synched. (a few are slightly out due to upgades) But I also have 6, 8, 3 hour buildings that I have no intention of selling because of high returns. Ie. Wedding chapel. So they are always going to get hit when I sleep.

I'd rather take the hit on them than waste 500K on explosives.

My bit ticket buildings are my synched 12 24 48's and they never get hit as I always collect them on time!

Joeycool - i'm with you. I am a regular 12/24/48 (with some 8-hr) building approach (PITA to sync up, but afterwards is great).

Now, my defense score (minus the explosives I current have) is 28959. My real defense is 26228. I have 7 bodys at level 6 (243 defense) and 8 bodys at level 7 (341 defense). Total is a so-called defense of 4429 (7*243 + 8*341).

The difference between my defense score and the real defense is 2731. Interestingly enough, the level 6 bodys are 1701 (7*243) and the level 7 bodys are 2729 (8*341). It almost suggests that my level 7 bodys count for defense and my level 6 bodys don't? Or is there a fractional percentage going on?

Basically I have unlocked the missiles and want to know if it is better to sell bodys and go with the missiles (for spacing).

[CounterSniper]

All these numbers have my head spinning but I would like to throw out my gut feeling (not fact) regarding defense.

Is it possible that the "defense buildings" help against robberies primarily and "equipment" defends against attacks primarily.

[Jarll]

Or... Do you know the way to San Jose? CC Mark asnwer : yes...

Anyway , Maybe this is all part of the game mistery , and that ' s ok

[qwikster]

i have been able to prove with a simple experiment that peacock/jihy principle on defense buildings is still valid.

(formerly known as whocareswhatmynameis)

[Tramp Stamp]

What were you banned for? Did you not spam enough?

[Joeycool]

i have been able to prove with a simple experiment that peacock/jihy principle on defense buildings is still valid.

(formerly known as whocareswhatmynameis)

Welcome new guy!

[qwikster]

What were you banned for? Did you not spam enough?

dunno... this is crazy. perhaps it's for being too nice... LOL

i suspect it may be related to my last thread. i asked folks to help me figure out the contribution of defense buildings by attacking me. didn't know it was against the rules. i've emailed CC Mark... waiting for his response.

as prez mccain said this is 'bizarro'.

[Joeycool]

dunno... this is crazy. perhaps it's for being too nice... LOL

i suspect it may be related to my last thread. i asked folks to help me figure out the contribution of defense buildings by attacking me. didn't know it was against the rules. i've emailed CC Mark... waiting for his response.

as prez mccain said this is 'bizarro'.

There is nothing in the forum rules that says this is not allowed. This seems very unfair. You are an all round nice guy... must be a mistake.

(Users Quickster, Tramp Stamp and Joeycool warned for discussing ban!)

[qwikster]

just thought of another possible reason. i'm sure everyone agrees that the proliferation of spambots has reached a critical point. i have been somewhat vocal (using sarcasm and indirect references) in the last few days about lack of moderators.

exhibit A: http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?19100-1st-Annual-Crime-City-Forum-Awards!&p=111181#post111181
exhibit B: http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?16695-RESPECT-POINTS-GOLDEN-WEAPONS-the-lowdown.&p=111130#post111130
exhibit C: http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?19008-Crime-city-mark........-I-m-calling-you-out......&p=111110#post111110

i don't know if this is, to quote CC Mark, banworthy.

[Joeycool]

May be quicker emailing support?

Or asking Hatz what the normal process for getting banned is!!

[thex]

so just for consensus... did we come to a consensus on how def. buildings work / contribute to overall rob/attack defense????

[adi]

My email to Funzio ref the problem :

I'm writing regarding the crime city app for my I phone not using the defence that my account shows. My account name is kailub and my code is: 448053681.

I am a frequent buyer of gold and have built my defence up using gold based defence buildings amongst others to what i thought and is shown to be at this moment in time 38405, but a friend commented on my profile wall after he had robbed my buildings that it was only using 28387 at that time and not the 38387 it should of been.

I replied that i assumed as it was because my buildings that where being robbed it maybe doesn't use my mafia so my defence maybe lower ??? he thought this was wrong so he found me again and attacked me this time and again the same results my defence is using 10000 less while being robbed or attacked than my profile shows i have.
All conversations we had are on my wall if you need to see the correspondence we had about the subject.

I'd like to know why this is please and for the matter to be resolved as soon as possible,attached are a picture of my profile showing my defence and of the feedback from the player.
If you require any more infortmation please don't hesitate in getting back to me.

I look forward to hearing back from you soon

[adi]

Their response :

Thanks for the inquiry. Skill points invested in attack and defense provide a behind-the-scenes bonus to your combat resolution. These benefits cannot be seen by either attacker or defender in an effort to add a bit of chance and mystery to player versus player (PVP) combat. It is this random element that you are seeing at play here, and as it is random, it will not occur every time. Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Regards,

A

www.funzio.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[adi]

My response back :

I just don't understand your answer??? i've spent real money on gold defence buildings and in game money and time upgarding them to what i thought was a high defence and now you say its a random amount of defence used. So what was the point of spending that money on gold to buy defence buildings which are useless.

i feel like i've been conned out of money buying things that are useless.

Not a great way to treat the people ( gold buyers )who actually make you guys profits is it ? i for sure will not be buying anymore gold and i will spread the word that buying gold for defence buildings and upgading them is pointless


so i'll await their answer

[adi]

A G, Feb 08 15:32 (PST):
Hey Adi,

I am sorry my answer was confusing. Defense buildings are by no means useless. They, along with your items, create your baseline attack/defense scores. These are the scores you see in your profile. Once combat is engaged, the skill points invested in attack and defense then add to that score, often increasing it by several thousand points. These additional points can only be seen during the PVP portion of the game and never show up on your profile. This is to keep some sort of unknown element to the game, adding a little excitement because of the risk factor. It adds mystery, but apparently also confusion, and for that I apologize.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Regards,

A

[JimmyShines]

adi, the oberservations made by forum member on total pvp def is correct, and you will never get the response you are looking for from support, and no, you will not get a refund as well. Yes, it sucks, and yes lots of players are effected by this.

[kusio]

... Once combat is engaged, the skill points invested in attack and defense then add to that score, often increasing it by several thousand points. These additional points can only be seen during the PVP portion of the game and never show up on your profile.



This response from A G is ridiculous on it's face.

1. An attacker's attack points shown in the PvP screen never deviates from what is shown on his/her profile page.
2. A victim's defense point total shown in the PvP screen is always LOWER than what is shown in the victim's profile, and there is a direct correlation between that negative difference and the number and level of defense buildings in the victims hood.

Excuse me while I pass a little smoke.

[Burn]

Posted on another thread about differences between HD iPad and iPhone, and thought of this thread...

I'm in the somewhat privileged position of having an account on both iPhone and iPad.

Both are now synced in effect, as they are both on Level 96.

If anyone wants any testing doing, for example on 1 account I have only 50 x Level 1 Gatlings as defence, on the other I have 50 x L1 Gatlings and 4 x L6 Bodyguard Agencies, then let me know.

Both accounts now appear on the others wall, so I can readily interact between them to get any info and defence stats that might be of use to anyone.

[Nicholost]

I'd say, let 'em fight and report back actual vs ideal attack and defense. Thanks, Burn.

[Burn]

Actually, on iPhone I am at 48 x L1 Gatlings, no other defence buildings.

Step 1. Burn attacks Burn.

Reported profile defence on iPhone is 23280. Attacking from iPad reveals actual in fight defence on iPhone of 23136.

Step 2. Now I take revenge on myself ;)

Reported Profile defence on iPad is 22679, this is 50 x L1 Gatlings and 4 x Level 6 Bodyguard agencies. Attacking from iPhone reveals actual in fight defence of 21697 on iPad.

Step 3 & 4.

I then returned to my hood on both devices, and repeated the process again, and got exactly the same numbers both ways.

Hope this helps someone do some useful math.

Let me know if you need anything else.

[Nicholost]

Here's my contribution.

Displayed defense: 12021
Actual robbery defense: 11697

Defense buildings:
1 x Abandon Building level 7
1 x Bodyguard Agency level 7

Does that support your theory, Peacock and others?

[i need muney]

guys, fill me in here. Are these figures from game data or just an assumtion or calculation made by Peacock?

[Lars]

Reported profile defence on iPhone is 23280. Attacking from iPad reveals actual in fight defence on iPhone of 23136.

Difference is 144 = 3*48 -- looks like your class is tycoon which adds an extra 10% to the listed defense (3 per gatling). Constistent with peacock's/jlhy's theory.



Reported Profile defence on iPad is 22679, this is 50 x L1 Gatlings and 4 x Level 6 Bodyguard agencies. Attacking from iPhone reveals actual in fight defence of 21697 on iPad.


Difference is 982. 150 of this result from the gatlings tycoon bonus, 832 remain. 4 lvl 6 bodyguard agencies give a tycoon a listed defense of 4*243=972 and according to peacock/jlhy you get a defense of 4*35=140, ie another 832 points of defense less than listed in the profile.

Looks like the theory perfectly explains the defense values from the fight screen.

[Plux]

Just a note: Attack and Defensive Skill points have severly improved drop rates on the maps. I noticed from starting with 20% M4 drop ratio on Pier 13 to a huge 50% drop rate ratio after fully investing my level ups and Map level 5 completion skill point rewards, investing fully into Attack and Defence Points. Skill Points are immensely important in creating "Hidden Attack and Defence". I can comfortably win when in battle with the scenario 25000 att easily beating 28000 defense on the Rival Attack summary. That with me having Less Mafia (normally 50-75 less!), fairly even weapons and I still win easily against a higher value Defence to Attack. Defensive building ratios improve with Defensive skill points.
Those that ploughed everything into Stamina and Energy....Ooops

[Hank]

i have been able to prove with a simple experiment that peacock/jihy principle on defense buildings is still valid.

(formerly known as whocareswhatmynameis)


Proof or it never happened

[Joeycool]

Proof or it never happened

Nice necro hank!

quickster quit about 4 months ago!

[Dillinja]

JC, I think you should call the Indians on this fool...
who is this hatta impersonator...he aint very good :p

[Joeycool]

And you know all about necrophilia mate......

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!