[Raid Boss] To Jump or Not to Jump...

[Vile Lynn]

Since the "Feedback" Sticky isn't meant for discussion, let's discuss it here even though it's been discussed ad nauseam.

IMO, I think syndicates should be locked because it is a syndicate event.
• GREE did not originally design RB to be a jump-fest for customers to exploit the fact that syndicates are not locked.
• Lower-ranking syndicates give up because half of the team is out getting their own Indy goals.
• 150+/60 in a syndicate, killing a L100 every 5 mins, gives GREE bad data that they use against us.

Options:
Lock syndicates
Make it almost impossible for the Top5 to complete (hint:MW)
Make the Indy goal worthless

I've been a customer long enough to know something will get nerfed if enough customers enjoy it.

Jumperz gonna jump.
Tell GREE why you should keep jumping.

[Dipstik]

There are other workarounds short of locking syndicates but they might be difficult to code. A cool down period after joining a syndicate before you can participate would work just as well. The length of one boss fight is all you'd need.

[Evan1000]

I could say blah blah syndicates cooperating is a good thing and it rewards activity like everyone else, but I won't do that. I'll look at it from GREE's standpoint.

Anyone remember boss killers? Remember how popular they were? If you think GREE is losing money from jumping, imagine how much they were losing when every other syn gives a guy $20 to come kill their bosses. It was definitely cheaper than buying gold!

So GREE realizes this problem and they have two options. They can either make the health really low so there would be no need for boss killers, or make the health near impossible for most syns so boss killers would be too expensive to bother. Well we're all aware they tried both of these methods and they both actually worked surprising well. But both times people complained about raid boss being either too easy or utterly insane. So their only other option was to turn to jumping, where they won't lose as much money and not many will complain.

So they make the boss health impossible but the min damage required for loot extremely low, so only the T10 is able to finish and probably use gold to finish early while everyone else jumps for their indi.

TLDR; they aren't getting rid of jumping

[Dipstik]

Nice try Evan, but you're still operating from the premise that everyone is entitled to finish. Good catch on the "boss killers" though. I didn't even know that was going on. Better lock syndicates to put a stop to that.

Any idea who exactly was getting paid for these services?

[Vile Lynn]

There are other workarounds short of locking syndicates but they might be difficult to code. A cool down period after joining a syndicate before you can participate would work just as well. The length of one boss fight is all you'd need.



I'm glad you brought that up about a cool down period; reminded me of this thread from K&D...
http://forums.gree.net/showthread.php?114755-Guild-Invitation-spamming&p=1498339#post1498339

[Vile Lynn]

I could say blah blah syndicates cooperating is a good thing and it rewards activity like everyone else, but I won't do that. I'll look at it from GREE's standpoint.

Anyone remember boss killers? Remember how popular they were? If you think GREE is losing money from jumping, imagine how much they were losing when every other syn gives a guy $20 to come kill their bosses. It was definitely cheaper than buying gold!

So GREE realizes this problem and they have two options. They can either make the health really low so there would be no need for boss killers, or make the health near impossible for most syns so boss killers would be too expensive to bother. Well we're all aware they tried both of these methods and they both actually worked surprising well. But both times people complained about raid boss being either too easy or utterly insane. So their only other option was to turn to jumping, where they won't lose as much money and not many will complain.

So they make the boss health impossible but the min damage required for loot extremely low, so only the T10 is able to finish and probably use gold to finish early while everyone else jumps for their indi.

TLDR; they aren't getting rid of jumping



lol, I didn't know about "boss killers" either. Nice!

Giving beastly customers real money to play for you is crazy!

I knew they "co-op" in Kingdom Age so beastly LLPs can get massive points in war to win 1st, but I didn't know it was happening in CC with other team events.

[Evan1000]

There used to be plenty more, now there's only one I've seen hanging around the chat rooms. Revealing his name would be naming and shaming and a d!ck move on my part.

[Oasis]

Any idea who exactly was getting paid for these services?

Good luck getting the answer to that!

[Vile Lynn]

Any idea who exactly was getting paid for these services?

There used to be plenty more, now there's only one I've seen hanging around the chat rooms. Revealing his name would be naming and shaming and a d!ck move on my part.

Good luck getting the answer to that!

hmm... any chance it could be a GREE mole in a shill acct?

[Weasel]

There used to be plenty more, now there's only one I've seen hanging around the chat rooms. Revealing his name would be naming and shaming and a d!ck move on my part.

So you won't name and shame, but you'll evade the forum censor?

Reporting individuals like these boss killers wouldn't be a jerk move at all. These people use a vpn to fake their location so they can buy gold in markets where the price is lower, using currency given to them by others in exchange for boss damage/kills, and do so on a scale that qualifies them for the gold bonus program.

And people wonder why Gree seems extra greedy lately. It's like shoplifting. Eventually the losses get recovered from the honest individuals actually paying for product.

If Gree would just stop Raid Boss jumping they'd eat fewer losses. In any other event it costs vaults of gold to gain the amount of stats that people have been getting for little or no cost from Raid Boss.

Personally, I don't really care what they do. Game experience changes very little with a stat increase, so jumping doesn't really affect anyone but Gree. If they think it's wise to allow a free stat giveaway for one week every month, and then require vaults of gold for a similar stat increase the rest of the time, so be it. They also have people who think the game should be run in such a way that there is an advantage to be gained by avoiding actually playing.

Edit: As an afterthought, one good way to stop jumping for free stats would be to include the infamous XP prizes along with each loot item earned. Each legendary coming with an extra 250 XP may serve as somewhat of a deterrent.

[TheWarthog]

Short answer: I think the majority of players would prefer to jump. Which is precisely why Gree will end it.

Longer answer: More of a question. If you would end it, at what level would you reasonably expect a syndicate could finish the elite levels? If there are 10k syndicates and only the top 5 could complete with insane gold expenditure, you're looking at a .05% completion rate. Dont you think thats a bit drastic? So, what would be reasonable? .001 without gold, .01% with some gold use, .1% with moderate gold use, 1% with heavy?

[Vile Lynn]

Reporting individuals like these boss killers wouldn't be a jerk move at all. These people use a vpn to fake their location so they can buy gold in markets where the price is lower, using currency given to them by others in exchange for boss damage/kills, and do so on a scale that qualifies them for the gold bonus program.

And people wonder why Gree seems extra greedy lately. It's like shoplifting. Eventually the losses get recovered from the honest individuals actually paying for product.

This is why GREE changed the Gold Buyers Club from vaults bought to amount of money spent. Cheaters were buying cheap vaults.




Edit: As an afterthought, one good way to stop jumping for free stats would be to include the infamous XP prizes along with each loot item earned. Each legendary coming with an extra 250 XP may serve as somewhat of a deterrent.
^ not a bad idea

[Weasel]

This is why GREE changed the Gold Buyers Club from vaults bought to amount of money spent. Cheaters were buying cheap vaults.

They probably changed it because they started running wars every 3 weeks, and they always run 20% off sales during war. People were, and mostly still are, waiting until the sale comes on to stock up. Why would they give people a bonus for timing their purchase of 5 vaults so it only cost them the equivalent of 4 vaults? That wasn't cheating, but it sure cut into the bottom line.

Changing it because of cheaters buying cheap vaults would end up actually giving the cheaters more gold. They have to spend more to qualify, which means they get more gold up front before getting their monthly bonus. They're paying for that gold with currency given to them for in game services, so they don't care what it costs because they spent nothing out of pocket.

If Gree were to change anything about that program because of abuse, it would be the amounts of bonus given, which has happened at least once. Their last resort would be to end that program entirely, but they would piss off their biggest whales in doing so.

[Blaggard]

What do the T5 do after they finish RB after about 3 hrs? Farm for 7 days?

Mix it up, help some others out...

As I said in the other thread, I'm amazed by this anti-jumper group when most of you are in teams that have no chance of finishing without jumpers...!

[Vile Lynn]

I don't know... How fast do the top syndicates finish RB in CC?

I ask because Waffleking, a developer, basically said in an AMA the Kingdom Age RB was outrageously high & almost impossible because the top guilds were finishing in a few hours; the increase in health was to make it more challenging for the top guilds. Nothing could have been further from the truth: no top guild in KA has ever finished in a few hours... makes me wonder about their "data". KA has always used jumpers, long before CC became such a friendly, free-for-all.

If the RB health is dictated by data from past RBs, we're screwed like MW got screwed; my faction completely skipped RB. It sucked.

[Rickdee]

If jumping wasn't allowed during RB Gree would of lost allot of players the last few cycles.(like MW has) Only way to compete recently is to build your raw stats to stay competitive in RB and EB... I am on a top 100/150 team and we couldn't finish normal RB two cycles ago. Do i expect to finish every event? Of course not, but as somebody that has been playing for 3 1/2 years i would hope normal level is attainable. And the talk about Gree losing money on RB is comical. If this is true then they have nobody to blame but themselves.. Med pack anyone?

[Vile Lynn]

I totally agree that Top 100 should be able to finish Normal.

Heck, a full & active Top250 should be able to finish Normal without jumpers, but that's not happening since they give up and jump for indy's into guilds farming L100s every 5-10mins. What's the point of being in a syndicate?

[Evan1000]

So you won't name and shame, but you'll evade the forum censor?

There's a difference between minor rules that don't really get enforced, and major rules that if you break can actually receive "infractions" for.. whatever those are. You're a forum troll you should know this by now.

[Vile Lynn]

Oh Evan, you so tuff!

[montecore]

The forum now accurately reflects the game. Rules inconsistently applied depending on the infraction, the moderator's mood, and some vague perception if the rule breaker should be dealt with harshly or lightly.

[Evan1000]

Ibut that's not happening since they give up and jump for indy's into guilds farming L100s every 5-10mins. What's the point of being in a syndicate?

Seeing as how stats are being hyper-inflated and the health was actually lowered.. I'm sure the game balance between who should be able to finish what goals will be fixed.

Calling it: Next RB will bring a fourth set of "Master" goals like in MW for the T10/20.. I wonder what the health would be though on this upcoming L150 boss if my suspicion is true.

What top syn is ready for a 100b Raid Boss?

[Evan1000]

The forum now accurately reflects the game. Rules inconsistently applied depending on the infraction, the moderator's mood, and some vague perception if the rule breaker should be dealt with harshly or lightly.

Isn't that called life? You think a cop is letting you off for something small if he's in a bad mood?

[Babytway]

let the free for all continue, Gree is letting everyone gain outrageously insane stats because its a setup, they are getting ready to eliminate a major part of the game or introduce a very stupid new aspect, a week later they will have an AMA and no matter what questions are ask, the only one the only answer you will get "We had to control stat inflation"

[sister morphine]

So you won't name and shame, but you'll evade the forum censor?

Reporting individuals like these boss killers wouldn't be a jerk move at all. These people use a vpn to fake their location so they can buy gold in markets where the price is lower, using currency given to them by others in exchange for boss damage/kills, and do so on a scale that qualifies them for the gold bonus program.

And people wonder why Gree seems extra greedy lately. It's like shoplifting. Eventually the losses get recovered from the honest individuals actually paying for product.

If Gree would just stop Raid Boss jumping they'd eat fewer losses. In any other event it costs vaults of gold to gain the amount of stats that people have been getting for little or no cost from Raid Boss.

Personally, I don't really care what they do. Game experience changes very little with a stat increase, so jumping doesn't really affect anyone but Gree. If they think it's wise to allow a free stat giveaway for one week every month, and then require vaults of gold for a similar stat increase the rest of the time, so be it. They also have people who think the game should be run in such a way that there is an advantage to be gained by avoiding actually playing.

Edit: As an afterthought, one good way to stop jumping for free stats would be to include the infamous XP prizes along with each loot item earned. Each legendary coming with an extra 250 XP may serve as somewhat of a deterrent.
Some players in my syn did jump a lot in the two recent RBs where the health was totally insane. Otherwise I don't think there's much indulgence.

Wouldn't the easiest way to kill the industrial scale jumping be to require a player be in the syndicate when the boss goes down to receive the prize. Not there, you don't get it.

[TheWarthog]

I don't know... How fast do the top syndicates finish RB in CC?

Dunno. I'm in a top 30-60 and it takes several days with jumpers. It would be imposstible without unless the entire syndicate would agree to buy and use ample gold. I doubt many syndicates below t-15 have 100% gold users. So of 10k+ syndicates maybe only 15 would stand a chance of finishing and the rest probably wont buy gold or use much at all as it would not be possible to finish. In that case, it would be a bad move for Gree in lost sales.



If the RB health is dictated by data from past RBs, we're screwed like MW got screwed; my faction completely skipped RB. It sucked.

If that's the case, the event will die completely. I'm confused...were you advocating for locking or for jumping? Because that lools an awful lot like your advocating for lowering the RB health to make it possible to complete without jumping or make it impossible to complete for anyone and eventually do away with the event completely.

[TheWarthog]

let the free for all continue, Gree is letting everyone gain outrageously insane stats because its a setup, they are getting ready to eliminate a major part of the game or introduce a very stupid new aspect, a week later they will have an AMA and no matter what questions are ask, the only one the only answer you will get "We had to control stat inflation"

^^^^

That. If you don't see the reintroduction of accomplices or some other lame brained "correction" coming soon, you're a noob and should have no opinion on jumpers. The progression is obvious.

1. Rivals list. "Hadda do something for the noobs. Y'all were getting untouchable."
2. Stat inflation. "Hadda do something for the noobs. Y'all were getting untouchable."
3. Accomplices. "Hadda do something for the noobs. Y'all were getting untouchable."
Accomplices retracted, but introduced
4. Hyper stat inflation. "Hadda do something for the noobs. Y'all were getting untouchable."
5. Super-hyper stat inflation. "Hadda do something for the noobs. Y'all were getting untouchable."
6. Is where we are now. Whatever follows will be answered with "Hadda do something for the noobs. Y'all were getting untouchable."

[Weasel]

There's a difference between minor rules that don't really get enforced, and major rules that if you break can actually receive "infractions" for.. whatever those are. You're a forum troll you should know this by now.

I see this post was edited by a mod. I did see it before the edit, and Mr. Moderator, you have only done half your job here. The name calling is uncalled for, whether you personally agree with it or not. Selectively enforcing rules sends a bad message.

[Vile Lynn]

I'm confused...were you advocating for locking or for jumping? Because that lools an awful lot like your advocating for lowering the RB health to make it possible to complete without jumping or make it impossible to complete for anyone and eventually do away with the event completely.

I'm on the fence. I would rather see my syn-mates stay and work together on the RB, but the high RB health inhibits us from finishing Normal.

I did some jumping last RB. (Can't beat 'em, join 'em.) It was a hot mess! The servers couldn't keep up with jumpers and the syndicate showed 150+ members in the syndicate I was using. I got stuck in syn-jump limbo several times: couldn't leave, couldn't join. But, I did get the Indy goal with that acct. I would have been happier to help my syn-mates get further than ditching them to do my own agenda.

There was a time when GREE had the balance right, when Top250 syndicates could kill L100s, but it took so much time that Top250 syndicates could not finish Elite without a lot of gold or rotating jumpers. Syndicates would "sell" places for the final RB reward. Now, a few syndicates actually finish Elite RB, but way too many get the Indy goal by jumping; it's out of proportion.

What I am throughly against is what happened in MW.
If we can avoid that catastrophe, we won't have to avoid RB.
Jumpers can't even help. The health was so high in MW that an FA wouldn't qualify for a reward on a Beginner Boss! Oh sure, they lowered it, but then what's the point if a team cannot even kill a Beginner to get a reward?

[Vile Lynn]

*gives Weasel a tinfoil hat and a happy cookie* ;)

[TheWarthog]

Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

[Greeny1]

The other side of the coin is that a lot of people used gold to hit multiple bosses to get rewards....cheapest way for a big stat increase, took time and gold to do but rewards were worth the hours for many. It actually gets people active and then boosts their stats, which will help more teams this cycle to go further in the event as a team.
Could also be a decision for lower teams, maybe give this event a miss and farm like crazy to improve stats so can attempt the next one.....
Decisions decisions.....

[1Shot]

I don't know... How fast do the top syndicates finish RB in CC?

I ask because Waffleking, a developer, basically said in an AMA the Kingdom Age RB was outrageously high & almost impossible because the top guilds were finishing in a few hours; the increase in health was to make it more challenging for the top guilds. Nothing could have been further from the truth: no top guild in KA has ever finished in a few hours... makes me wonder about their "data". KA has always used jumpers, long before CC became such a friendly, free-for-all.

If the RB health is dictated by data from past RBs, we're screwed like MW got screwed; my faction completely skipped RB. It sucked.

Top syndicates 2-3 days.

[Sandukan]

Wow
This thread appears to be filled with bitter lazy people. I cant believe that anyone would be advocating mechanisms to PREVENT active players from building stats.

Two currencies in this game: Money and time.
Conservation of currency.
Putting in one should lower use of the other.

[Dipstik]

The energy glitch allowed active players to build their stats too. Just sayin'.

[Vile Lynn]

The energy glitch allowed active players to build their stats too. Just sayin'.

Exactly.
extra

[Weasel]

Wow
This thread appears to be filled with bitter lazy people. I cant believe that anyone would be advocating mechanisms to PREVENT active players from building stats.

Two currencies in this game: Money and time.
Conservation of currency.
Putting in one should lower use of the other.

Preventing people from building their stats with activity rather than money has been Gree's business model for years.

[Sandukan]

A glitch is different from a feature.

[Dipstik]

True. Go back and read all the glitcher apologists calling the energy glitch an "Easter egg." People can rationalize anything and the difference between strategy and cheating is a ruling from gree. I just want that ruling. Personally I think the point of the event is to work with your own syndicate, but if they say jumping is ok then I'll shut up about it.

[Vile Lynn]

lol, that is exactly what glitchers called it, a feature, like it was meant to be exploited.

[Sandukan]

Pretty sure the developers are aware that if they leave syndicates unlocked people can move around. If they didn't then we could collect multiple final prizes, which we can't. Clearly a fail safe was employed.

One minute you people argue to give free players a chance the next minute you argue that stats sre being given way. No wonder they don't take you all seriously.

[Dipstik]

I've made almost 7000 posts so it's hard to be certain, but I don't think I whine about giving free players a chance. Please don't confuse me with "you people." Nice subject change, though.

[LeatherKicks]

Stop complaining. Cant handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. It's not like anyone would do anything criminal in crime city... lol And bring back accomplices. I actually enjoyed them. C;

[Weasel]

Pretty sure the developers are aware that if they leave syndicates unlocked people can move around. If they didn't then we could collect multiple final prizes, which we can't. Clearly a fail safe was employed.

One minute you people argue to give free players a chance the next minute you argue that stats sre being given way. No wonder they don't take you all seriously.

I don't really care either way and I don't really remember taking a firm stance either for or against jumping. It only really affects Gree and their potential revenue anyways because with the way they currently have the game set up, stats don't really change much. They make a difference for boss events, but Gree can and does change boss health any time they want when they feel that the average player strength has reduced the amount of gold used below whatever profit margin they set. Other than that, stats just change your daily rivals and how you interact with rivals is completely unaffected by stats.

I suspect Gree doesn't want to lock syndicate membership any more than is necessary because it makes the game unpleasant if people get stuck with a bad apple in their group, or if you get stuck in a group of total slackers and want to move on to greener pastures. That said, it is unlikely that the scale on which stats are earned without the use of gold during Raid Boss was in any way part of what was originally envisioned by Gree when designing the Raid Boss concept. The near constant tweaks and changes to various mechanics of the event are a pretty good indication of that.

[montecore]

Considering RB jumping is one of very few elements to the game left that can reward high effort/time as opposed to simple gold spending, I am for allowing the jumping. It's also one of the last elements to the game that the broad community considers fun.

[ukwildcats5]

My syndicate always goes as far as possible because not everyone jumps. So it isn't fair to them if we just abandon them to jump. Last rb we didn't start jumping untill the last day. Sure some people don't care about their team and bolt as soon as rb starts to jump. but for us the team always comes first and then we jump with whatever time is left to help our raw stats a little so that the next time we might be able to go further. jumping isn't the problem. The players that leave their team to jump right away and kill 650 lvl 100 bosses is the problem.

[OMD73]

Agree with Montecore 100%. RB is the one event where the CC Community have the opportunity to work together/assist each other. Irrespective of player motives - jumping should continue to be allowed. To not do so would destroy one of the best aspects (and there are not many left!) remaining in this game.

[sister morphine]

jumping isn't the problem. The players that leave their team to jump right away and kill 650 lvl 100 bosses is the problem.
I'd agree with that. Team should always come first, and maybe the players who do that consistently should be invited to find a new home. It's entirely pointless anyway; the nature of the game is that whilst you'll always be able to beat people on your rivals list, so there will always be people who can beat you. Stats are irrelevant in that.

The only place they do matter is in maintaining your position in the war tier your syndicate is part of. Inactive players will eventually fall so far behind their team mates that they have trouble finding targets. Active players won't and it matters not whether they just hit bosses as part of the event or spend the entire time jumping for 100s. So, if players want to jump, let them. It doesn't hurt anybody (other than the teams whose more selfish players jump ship to benefit themselves), but really nor does it help in the broader sense.

[cynicalmofo]

The whole time that there are people out there selling cash for hits, this event will be worthless.

Why should anyone spend money on a vault of gold when they can pay half of that amount and have a hired boss killer drop all of the bosses?

And yes, I do know the ID of the account, the name of the account and who the original owner of the account was (before it was sold).

I also estimate that the account in question made somewhere around $1.2k on the last RB and still ended up with over 10k gold for free.

[TheWarthog]

Top syndicates 2-3 days.

So the follow up questions become:

1. "what do you consider a top syndicate? What ranking earns you that distinction in a game with 10k syndicates? Top 1%? Top 1/2%?"
2. "If top means elite and only those elite syndicates should be strong enough to finish, should they be strong enough without gold?" After all they are elite and since enough gold can buy anyone anyone a finish, gold finishes aren't really elite by game standards. Maybe by RW income standards but not game strength.
3. "How 'top' do you have to be to reasonably expect to finish without jumpers?" Making it impossible for all without gold or jumpers is quite heavy handed.
4. "Do you expect top syndicates to have to use gold to complete or remain 'top' in all events?" Same comment as in #3

[Dipstik]

The fact that the event is difficult is not an argument in favor of jumping. The fact that so many syndicates are finishing for free by using hundreds of accounts instead of 60 is probably a reason why the health jumped so high in the first place. If syndicates were limited in the number of accounts that could participate, the boss health could be adjusted accordingly.

Not saying Gree would (or should) make it easy for you after putting a stop to jumping, but it is a fallacy to continue to argue that you "need" jumpers because the bosses are so hard.

[Cereal K!ller]

Individual goals ruin syndicate goals unless you're in a syndicate that is trained to put syndicate goals ahead of individual.

Some people don't ONLY jump for individual goals, some help other syndicates. If you have an issue with jumping, the real issue you have is leaving the syn to complete individual/farm 100s to raise stats. Take issue with that and don't punish people who want to help others or their sister syndicates.

[Dipstik]

Individual goals ruin syndicate goals unless you're in a syndicate that is trained to put syndicate goals ahead of individual.

Some people don't ONLY jump for individual goals, some help other syndicates. If you have an issue with jumping, the real issue you have is leaving the syn to complete individual/farm 100s to raise stats. Take issue with that and don't punish people who want to help others or their sister syndicates.

As the guy who's primarily pushing this debate, I assume your post is directed at me, but that doesn't look anything like a response to anything I've ever written. I guess I'll let whoever your post is directed to answer your arguments.

[Vile Lynn]

Individual goals ruin syndicate goals unless you're in a syndicate that is trained to put syndicate goals ahead of individual.

Some people don't ONLY jump for individual goals, some help other syndicates. If you have an issue with jumping, the real issue you have is leaving the syn to complete individual/farm 100s to raise stats. Take issue with that and don't punish people who want to help others or their sister syndicates.

Hmm... My syn needs help during War & SA, so syndicates should be open for jumpers?

No.

[Blaggard]

With events 24/7, let's just close syns permanently!!!!

Great idea, Vile Lynn.

[Cereal K!ller]

You can have help for SA and war. Just get them in before they lock.

[Vile Lynn]

well..... Duh.

[Weasel]

Individual goals ruin syndicate goals unless you're in a syndicate that is trained to put syndicate goals ahead of individual.

Some people don't ONLY jump for individual goals, some help other syndicates. If you have an issue with jumping, the real issue you have is leaving the syn to complete individual/farm 100s to raise stats. Take issue with that and don't punish people who want to help others or their sister syndicates.

It is unwise to assume what anyone's real issue is. It has been stated by many who oppose jumping that they believe a syndicate that completes all the Raid Boss goals should be able to do so on its own, with 60 members and no outside help.

Putting syndicate goals ahead of individual goals does nothing to prevent jumping, as any syndicate can have 59 accounts do their damage on the boss, remove them from the syndicate, and allow another 59+ players to jump in, hit the boss, and leave. The original 59 may then rejoin their leader and claim the goal prizes a they become available. In order for this to work you need both a full syndicate of individuals who put the team first, and an unlimited number of individuals who may not be planning to finish the syndicate goals with any group. Such players are likely more concerned with the individual goal and stat farming.

Those who oppose jumping don't oppose only certain aspects of it, they oppose it entirely. Jumping as a whole wouldn't be what it is without both syndicates and individuals chasing whichever goal they have decided to pursue.

And to clarify, since some will probably need the clarification, I am neither for nor against jumping. It is what it is and affects Gree more than anyone else.

[Vile Lynn]

I think it's kind of funny GREE is running a 24hr SA with locked syndicates in the middle of an event where jumpers are all over the place.

Heads up, CS! You're gonna be flooded with tickets from customers locked out of their home syndicates when SA begins.

[Rickdee]

I think it's kind of funny GREE is running a 24hr SA with locked syndicates in the middle of an event where jumpers are all over the place.

Heads up, CS! You're gonna be flooded with tickets from customers locked out of their home syndicates when SA begins.


They did last cycle also and people just wait till SA is over. Not a big deal and if you get locked out you have nobody to blame but yourself.

[Sandukan]

It is unwise to assume what anyone's real issue is. It has been stated by many who oppose jumping that they believe a syndicate that completes all the Raid Boss goals should be able to do so on its own, with 60 members and no outside help.

Putting syndicate goals ahead of individual goals does nothing to prevent jumping, as any syndicate can have 59 accounts do their damage on the boss, remove them from the syndicate, and allow another 59+ players to jump in, hit the boss, and leave. The original 59 may then rejoin their leader and claim the goal prizes a they become available. In order for this to work you need both a full syndicate of individuals who put the team first, and an unlimited number of individuals who may not be planning to finish the syndicate goals with any group. Such players are likely more concerned with the individual goal and stat farming.

Those who oppose jumping don't oppose only certain aspects of it, they oppose it entirely. Jumping as a whole wouldn't be what it is without both syndicates and individuals chasing whichever goal they have decided to pursue.

And to clarify, since some will probably need the clarification, I am neither for nor against jumping. It is what it is and affects Gree more than anyone else.

How does jumping negatively affect GREE?
They are selling an experience so they are net positive all the way even if you include the salaries of the developers (which can't be that much given the quality of the product).

You seem to be working under the false assumption that jumpers are not using gold and that GREE can't, in one week, negate any gains a jumper gets by issuing a new round of more powerful weapons.

[Evan1000]

I kind of like this. The SA near the start of RB helps prevent jumpers from leaving their syndicates right at the start, and still leaves plenty of time to jump afterwards.

I just hate how much they screwed up last SA. Used to be my favorite event

[el pokio]

How does jumping negatively affect GREE?
They are selling an experience so they are net positive all the way even if you include the salaries of the developers (which can't be that much given the quality of the product).

You seem to be working under the false assumption that jumpers are not using gold and that GREE can't, in one week, negate any gains a jumper gets by issuing a new round of more powerful weapons.

Couldn't agree more. What better way to get people spending gold? RB is pretty much the only event I spend gold on, jumping through multiple syns, hitting multiple bosses, watching my stats rise! Seems to me that GREE is doing exactly what any corporate business should do, constantly evaluating their product, changing as their customer base changes and protecting their income stream.
As with all products/brands and services, if they don't deliver what you expect for your money, you go elsewhere.
We are all still tapping.......
Gree are still making money....

[Weasel]

How does jumping negatively affect GREE?
They are selling an experience so they are net positive all the way even if you include the salaries of the developers (which can't be that much given the quality of the product).

You seem to be working under the false assumption that jumpers are not using gold and that GREE can't, in one week, negate any gains a jumper gets by issuing a new round of more powerful weapons.

If someone is using gold for jumping, they are A) doing it wrong, and B) really stupid.

The entire purpose of jumping is to reduce or eliminate the necessity of gold to complete the Raid Boss goals. Gree may still come out net positive, but they operate on potential revenue forecasts. Failing to meet projected sales is not a positive outcome in any business, profitable or not.

[el pokio]

If someone is using gold for jumping, they are A) doing it wrong, and B) really stupid.

The entire purpose of jumping is to reduce or eliminate the necessity of gold to complete the Raid Boss goals. Gree may still come out net positive, but they operate on potential revenue forecasts. Failing to meet projected sales is not a positive outcome in any business, profitable or not.

Hmmm, not sure about that. I spend gold during RB

A. I'm not doing it wrong, I totally understand the point of jumping and the benefits to individuals and the syns they jump too. Hitting multiple level 100 bosses gives you multiple epic/legendary items as well as an almost guaranteed indy prize. My stats went up 600m last RB. In the current gree set up RB is the only event worth spending gold on! (I've excluded the recent box event seeing as thread is about jumping)

B. Doesn't deserve a response in a sensible debate

[Evan1000]

If someone is using gold for jumping, they are A) doing it wrong, and B) really stupid.

The entire purpose of jumping is to reduce or eliminate the necessity of gold to complete the Raid Boss goals.

This used to be true.. up until loot prizes were inflated tremendously and jumping was actually better than attempting to finishing the insane elite RB.

I know many who jump like crazy and use gold to do so. No different than using gold to farm EB or this past case event

[Weasel]

Hmmm, not sure about that. I spend gold during RB

A. I'm not doing it wrong, I totally understand the point of jumping and the benefits to individuals and the syns they jump too. Hitting multiple level 100 bosses gives you multiple epic/legendary items as well as an almost guaranteed indy prize. My stats went up 600m last RB. In the current gree set up RB is the only event worth spending gold on! (I've excluded the recent box event seeing as thread is about jumping)

B. Doesn't deserve a response in a sensible debate


This used to be true.. up until loot prizes were inflated tremendously and jumping was actually the better than attempting to finishing the insane elite RB.

Spending gold to inflate your stats when Gree can and will just hyper-inflate the next round of prizes is ignorant. Of course people are free to throw their money however they wish, but throwing it at stats that have little impact on anything of importance is just stupid. Once people start finishing Raid Bosses without jumpers because their stats have become inflated due to jumping, Gree will just up the health again and those people will be off chasing the pink dragon again.

[Sandukan]

If someone is using gold for jumping, they are A) doing it wrong, and B) really stupid.

The entire purpose of jumping is to reduce or eliminate the necessity of gold to complete the Raid Boss goals. Gree may still come out net positive, but they operate on potential revenue forecasts. Failing to meet projected sales is not a positive outcome in any business, profitable or not.

There is no right or wrong way to play this game.
Some would consider investing any time in this app to be either 1) stupid or 2) unhealthy

[Weasel]

There is no right or wrong way to play this game.
Some would consider investing any time in this app to be either 1) stupid or 2) unhealthy

The right way is to just play the game. The wrong way is to be played by the game. Some people fail to notice the difference. Gree counts on that.

[Evan1000]

Spending gold to inflate your stats when Gree can and will just hyper-inflate the next round of prizes is ignorant. Of course people are free to throw their money however they wish, but throwing it at stats that have little impact on anything of importance is just stupid. Once people start finishing Raid Bosses without jumpers because their stats have become inflated due to jumping, Gree will just up the health again and those people will be off chasing the pink dragon again.

We have 500 mafia members. Even though we already have a 22m stat item.. I'm sure these near a mil loot items won't leave our stats for a considerable amount of time, and in that considerable amount of time that gold would have been worth it.

[Evan1000]

The right way is to just play the game. The wrong way is to be played by the game. Some people fail to notice the difference. Gree counts on that.

Am I playing the game right? I've spent a nice fat 0 on this game ;)

[Weasel]

We have 500 mafia members. Even though we already have a 22m stat item.. I'm sure these near a mil loot items won't leave our stats for a considerable amount of time, and in that considerable amount of time that gold would have been worth it.

The usefulness of the items isn't the issue. The fact that Gree can and will increase boss health long before your items become obsolete is what you need to realize. Endlessly chasing a stat gain is the same as chasing the feeling of that first injection, aka, chasing the pink dragon. It doesn't matter what you do, you'll never get to where you want to be.

[Evan1000]

aka, chasing the pink dragon..

Lmfao! Hey before I found crime city *censored for fear of infraction* Hero was my number one game. I swear I almost caught him! Probably. At some point. Maybe

[Sandukan]

The right way is to just play the game. The wrong way is to be played by the game. Some people fail to notice the difference. Gree counts on that.

So what, pray tell, is the right way to play this game?
I imagine it doesn't involve stats, right?

[Weasel]

So what, pray tell, is the right way to play this game?
I imagine it doesn't involve stats, right?

It involves whatever you like, as long as you're in complete control. If you're chasing after some arbitrary goal, or submitting to someone else's "minimum requirements", it's the game that is playing you at that point.

[el pokio]

The usefulness of the items isn't the issue. The fact that Gree can and will increase boss health long before your items become obsolete is what you need to realize. Endlessly chasing a stat gain is the same as chasing the feeling of that first injection, aka, chasing the pink dragon. It doesn't matter what you do, you'll never get to where you want to be.

This whole game and similar titles is all about increasing stats/income/weapons etc. Every element of the game is geared to this. "Chasing the pink dragon" (new one on me) is exactly what everyone is doing, either by wanting to increase your syn position, getting to the next milestone on your attack stats or chasing an event item with a particular mod.
Gree continues to move the goal further away, we keep chasing it, that's the whole point! Why do we continue to do this? Well clearly we are either addicted or we enjoy the social side of the game and the competition of having the best stats in your syn or being in a top syn.

Whatever the reason is, it's right for the individual, ones things for sure Gree will do what's right for their business and their shareholders

[el pokio]

The usefulness of the items isn't the issue. The fact that Gree can and will increase boss health long before your items become obsolete is what you need to realize. Endlessly chasing a stat gain is the same as chasing the feeling of that first injection, aka, chasing the pink dragon. It doesn't matter what you do, you'll never get to where you want to be.

This whole game and similar titles is all about increasing stats/income/weapons etc. Every element of the game is geared to this. "Chasing the pink dragon" (new one on me) is exactly what everyone is doing, either by wanting to increase your syn position, getting to the next milestone on your attack stats or chasing an event item with a particular mod.
Gree continues to move the goal further away, we keep chasing it, that's the whole point! Why do we continue to do this? Well clearly we are either addicted or we enjoy the social side of the game and the competition of having the best stats in your syn or being in a top syn.

Whatever the reason is, it's right for the individual, ones things for sure Gree will do what's right for their business and their shareholders

[fuzzy]

did they fix jumping by making the min on level 100's high enough ?

[Sandukan]

did they fix jumping by making the min on level 100's high enough ?

What's the new minimum?

[Stubby1113]

What's the new minimum?

1.26 billion

[Vile Lynn]

That's a rotten way to "fix" jumpers but par for the course.
Bad data in, bad data out.

[Sandukan]

1.26 billion

Thanks!
All the ones who whine should be quite pleased that jumping will be all but eliminated for most players.
This should dramatically improve THEIR game experience.
Bravo!!!!

[Weasel]

1.26 billion

This is a pretty clear statement of how Gree feels about the whole jumping subject.

20 accounts doing the minimum damage to qualify for loot will kill a level 100. Forget jumping, even a group of 60 will have to take turns on level 100 Raid Bosses if they want loot.

[Vile Lynn]

Thanks!
All the ones who whine should be quite pleased that jumping will be all but eliminated for most players.
This should dramatically improve THEIR game experience.
Bravo!!!!

lol! Let's not start thinking that GREE listens to it's customer now!

GREE uses data, jumpers compromise that data.
Where GREE sets the health & min is data driven not customer preference.

[Green Drake]

So one maybe two hits for the accounts that took advantage of the two recent events that handed out massive stats.

[Evan1000]

But customer preference is 98% like jumping and 2% oppose

[Vile Lynn]

But customer preference is 98% like jumping and 2% oppose

Knowing how GREE enjoys a good nerf, using those numbers, GREE would have locked syndicates a long time ago for RB.

[Stubby1113]

Might stop the jumping but won't stop the "boss killers". They have already finished elite in one syn

[Green Drake]

Maybe that is how they stop jumpers. Stat inflation will mean most syndicates will finish easily and farm within own group.

[Evan1000]

Knowing how GREE enjoys a good nerf, using those numbers, GREE would have locked syndicates a long time ago for RB.

Haha, true

[Evan1000]

Maybe that is how they stop jumpers. Stat inflation will mean most syndicates will finish easily and farm within own group.

^^^ this. But half of the players will be screwed over for indis. Shouldn't have raised it this high

[cooch]

If someone is using gold for jumping, they are A) doing it wrong, and B) really stupid.

The entire purpose of jumping is to reduce or eliminate the necessity of gold to complete the Raid Boss goals. Gree may still come out net positive, but they operate on potential revenue forecasts. Failing to meet projected sales is not a positive outcome in any business, profitable or not.

Why is it with you either i am right in what I say or you are stupid or doing stupid things?

While I don't use gold to jump when I jump one mans stupid is another mans way he wants to do things

If you're that brilliant get off the chat and make 100s of millions making a game app for stupid people

Either that or head for a permanent ban. Going after gree is one thing but players as well with your analysis really starts looking like you love to squirt lemons and the rest of us readers have to drink a bunch of lemonade

[Killer p]

The free players are happy and i speak for myself when i say im happy too as a gold player, but i can understand the frustation of some gold players cause Gree made it easy to get all RB goals for everyone!
These frustrated people atm are the gold spenders that dont know how to spend their gold, whatever stats a free player can get a gold player can get multiple times over!
AND DIPPY, mate everyone has seen your posts all over the forums and mods have even comented on it, if you think this is a glitch or an oversite by the developers send a ticket!
No point having multiple threads bout rb jumping, this is one it should be on and maybe the feedback thread, but any thread these days about rb just goes straight to JUMPING JUMPERS JUMPING!

IF YOU CANT BEAT THEM, JOIN THEM!

[Dipstik]

Looks like the issue has been addressed, killer. The problem is fixed.

[the.webjunky]

Since the "Feedback" Sticky isn't meant for discussion, let's discuss it here even though it's been discussed ad nauseam.


Options:
Lock syndicates
Make it almost impossible for the Top5 to complete (hint:MW)
Make the Indy goal worthless


its ppl like you that give gree bad idea's

[Weasel]

its ppl like you that give gree bad idea's

They don't need or accept help in that department.

[Sandukan]

its ppl like you that give gree bad idea's

Its not only her.
There is a cabal of individuals on the forum that think that the game should be designed to fit their schedule and activity level.
GREE is more than happy to pick up on these moments of brain fart to claim we asked for it.

[Dipstik]

Still no real argument as to why I'm wrong... "I like jumping" and "you're outnumbered" aren't arguments. Sounds like they agree with me.

[Bad Fish]

This "topic" has been beaten into the ground.

Jump or don't jump, it's your choice.

#locked

[Dipstik]

The lurker has spoken! There is no need for further discussion!

[Killer p]

Still no real argument as to why I'm wrong... "I like jumping" and "you're outnumbered" aren't arguments. Sounds like they agree with me.

Ok, so should syndicates be locked for eb and sltq too? I jump when i finish those too and help other syndicates finish! But if like you guys are saying that syndicates not supposed to help other syndicates then we should lock eb and sltq too!!

[Winnson]

I like this increase in personal contribution to RB.

You can get in 2 FAs on one boss, so most should be able to make minimum if their crew organizes it and not only the strongest go crazy knocking bosses down.

Props to Gree imo. I think this is a good way to stop RB jumping.

[Weasel]

Ok, so should syndicates be locked for eb and sltq too? I jump when i finish those too and help other syndicates finish! But if like you guys are saying that syndicates not supposed to help other syndicates then we should lock eb and sltq too!!

Don't "play dumb". It's well known among the community (the one using chat apps, not the few who post here) that the main purpose of jumping was to get as much free loot individually as was possible in the given time frame. People doing the jumping didn't all suddenly stop because they had helped enough people, they continued to jump to help themselves to as much free loot as they could get their hands on. People accepting jumpers to complete syndicate goals did not all decide the event was over simply because the goals were complete. Those people would then also proceed to jump for as much free stuff as they could get, or continue running a revolving door to allow dozens, if not hundreds, of people to help them get free stuff.

As for SLTQ and Epic Boss, SLTQ limits the loot available to a maximum of 60 items per syndicate per goal, and individuals cannot obtain duplicates. Epic Boss is an individual based event that later had syndicate goals added, and those too are limited to 60 per syndicate, per goal, with no duplications. And before someone points out that the daily goals duplicate the same awards, what is meant by "no duplications" is that an individual cannot obtain the daily goal prize multiple times per day.

All that being said, neither of those events are relevant in the Raid Boss jumping discussion.

[Evan1000]

You can't get a duplicate raid boss goal either. SLTQ may not be relevant, but epic boss is.

The only difference between epic boss and raid boss is epic boss is farmed individually while raid boss is typically done with the use of lots of people or jumpers. You can farm raid boss individually with low levels, but who would do that when you could hit a perfectly good 100 for better loot, regardless of how many people are doing the same thing hitting the same boss.

I have not yet heard a relevant argument discussing the downsides of jumping.

"It's a syndicate event." I think we all knew that. How is that an argument exactly? The fact that people are leaving their syndicates to go jump for themselves individually is a syndicate issue and should be dealt with within the syndicate, not something to penalize everyone for. A guy jumps out at the beginning to go farm bosses then comes back expecting the prize in my syndicate isn't getting the prize, and depending on the situation isn't coming back at all.

Stat inflation, I think it's too late for that argument. If you yourself refuse to jump because of the "principle" that jumping is somehow wrong is actually hurting your syndicate because you are not keeping up with the inflation and are therefore becoming a target in war.

It was also better than farming epic boss because with the low mins everyone could farm equally, not the stronger only can farm or the low levels only can farm. But now only the people that took advantage of the farming while we could are the only people that can hit mins.

So a perfectly fine part of the game is somewhat ruined. Now let's see in what way my arguments are shot down.

[MK Loves You]

Why not just make it to where only 60 different people can hit one boss? That would stop people from jumping from syndicate to syndicate for the indi goal and still allow players to come help out others in need of a helping hand. There's nothing wrong with helping friends. Some of you say that stats have no meaning in this game anymore then turn around and criticise people for gaining stats for free during RB.

At the end of the day IT'S A GAME. And most of you take it WAAAAY to seriously.

[Winnson]

There is no I in the word team.

That is all.

[Evan1000]

Why not just make it to where only 60 different people can hit one boss? That would stop people from jumping from syndicate to syndicate for the indi goal and still allow players to come help out others in need of a helping hand. There's nothing wrong with helping friends. Some of you say that stats have no meaning in this game anymore then turn around and criticise people for gaining stats for free during RB.

At the end of the day IT'S A GAME. And most of you take it WAAAAY to seriously.

Thank you, 100% agree

But the 60 member cap wouldn't work, because it would hurt the syndicates that actually need jumpers. Even if your weren't jumping, people switch between accounts in the 60 man syndicate to help their own team finish RB

[MK Loves You]

I've never been in a syndicate that uses jumpers, so I don't know 100% how that works. But what I understand is: a syndicate summons a boss, then lets someone in the syndicate, they attack the boss then leave, and the syndicate let's someone else in and repeat the cycle and once the boss is defeated everyone who hit the minimum damage requirement gets a prize. Am I correct? If so, something that bugs me is the people that have left the syndicate gets a prize. If you aren't in the syndicate when the boss is defeated I don't think you should get a prize, I honestly have no reasoning behind this I just have a problem with that. NOTE: I'm sure I have typos and other errors in this post but I don't care. I just worked 16 hours straight and I'm exhausted and dont feel like thinking right now. You'll just have to get over it.

[Dipstik]

You've got the general idea, mk.

Evan: if you "need" jumpers to finish, you shouldn't be finishing. Stop assuming you're entitled to every prize for free.

[Bad Fish]

Yes you are correct, you get the loot prize & not the prize for completing syndicate goal lvls.

[Evan1000]

You've got the general idea, mk.

Evan: if you "need" jumpers to finish, you shouldn't be finishing. Stop assuming you're entitled to every prize for free.

I wasn't speaking for myself, my syn finished this morning with no jumpers nor gold, and last RB we used jumpers just so we'd finish quicker and have time to farm and jump for indi.

I'm speaking for every other syn that would need some form of help for the insane RB.. with the exception of this extremely easy one. But I have a feeling it won't be so easy next one, that or the 4th set of master goals I still think they're going to bring.

[Dipstik]

My point doesn't change whether we're talking about you or any other syndicate. If you can't finish, you don't deserve it. The fact that the events are too hard does not mean you're entitled to outside help. and you say the same thing EVERY TIME.

[Sandukan]

My point doesn't change whether we're talking about you or any other syndicate. If you can't finish, you don't deserve it. The fact that the events are too hard does not mean you're entitled to outside help. and you say the same thing EVERY TIME.

Did you create that rule all by yourself? If a team can organize jumpers, jump rooms and constantly have officers available at door and get others to complete their goals then that's a pretty damn good crime syndicate.

This is not Sim city. It's Crime City. Once the rules aren't broken all is fair.

Your little crusade won out in the end. So take a bow.

[Evan1000]

My point doesn't change whether we're talking about you or any other syndicate. If you can't finish, you don't deserve it. The fact that the events are too hard does not mean you're entitled to outside help. and you say the same thing EVERY TIME.

Better question.. who cares? Going back to mk's great point, it's a game, so who cares if other syndicates finish with jumpers? I have yet to hear an actual REASON that jumping is so bad and must be stopped, other than that the principle of jumping goes against the fact that it's a syndicate event. That's not a reason, and refer to my last treatise as to why it isn't.

[Dipstik]

Good point. I'm just declaring victory. Talking with Evan is just painful.

[Green Drake]

And now you understand how the rest of the forum feels trying to have a discussion with you. While not nearly as polished in his opinions I see a good bit of dippy in Evan's arguments. Give him a few years and I am sure he will be climbing on his soapbox pontificating with the best of them.

[cooch]

And now you understand how the rest of the forum feels trying to have a discussion with you. While not nearly as polished in his opinions I see a good bit of dippy in Evan's arguments. Give him a few years and I am sure he will be climbing on his soapbox pontificating with the best of them.

Oh lord. There are more lawyers in law school than are practicing. Evan try not to be that type of lawyer. No lawyer jokes please

[Dipstik]

And now you understand how the rest of the forum feels trying to have a discussion with you. While not nearly as polished in his opinions I see a good bit of dippy in Evan's arguments. Give him a few years and I am sure he will be climbing on his soapbox pontificating with the best of them.

If you can't tell the difference, apparently I was wasting my time with you too.

[Timala]

What's wrong helping other teams?? In all the other events we fight each other and I like being able to help little teams finish.
And it's fun with all the jump rooms with people from all different teams. It has made crime city more fun for me.

[cooch]

What's wrong helping other teams?? In all the other events we fight each other and I like being able to help little teams finish.
And it's fun with all the jump rooms with people from all different teams. It has made crime city more fun for me.

Fun?! Fun!? Gasp that is what many non jumpers want you to avoid along with gree at times. Or at least the ones that post here

Heavens now that they know players actually enjoy meeting other players from around the world while jumping they will work extra hard in whining to eliminate it!

We must learn to enjoy their narrow and self centered view of what "fun" really is.

[Vile Lynn]

Well, well, well. I guess GREE got RB right. My syn finally finished RB. Those members who usually get Indy from jumping, got their Indy, too. Congrats!

[Weasel]

Well, well, well. I guess GREE got RB right. My syn finally finished RB. Those members who usually get Indy from jumping, got their Indy, too. Congrats!

Whether or not they got it right will be determined by what the next one costs. I suspect this RB event, as awesome (seriously) as it has been, has not been a big generator of revenue. We may see changes next RB that are meant to address that.

[Vile Lynn]

I didn't want to ask those customers who got Indy if they used gold or not. (none of my business) But, I think most got it for free or with very little gold. (I'm in a mostly free syn.)

Seems like if one could qualify for a High Level RB drop, 90-100, one could get Indy 14/14 without jumping.

Unfortunately, none of my accts could qualify with 1FA & I didn't want to ask my syn mates to slow down for me to regen a QA; yes, bosses were being killed too quickly. It was tempting to buy a little gold for refills, but I resisted! Yay me! ha!

BTW, good move removing the Health Pack from the Indy goal.

[Evan1000]

Did someone say master goals? I for one would like another upgrade modifier as the final prize!

Alright, that was half sarcastic, but my money is on master goals. They wouldn't raise health again.. would they?

[Winnson]

The Canadian Moose Hockey player theme speaks to my soul.

With the blood on the ice and on Canuckles and that hockey stick on the ground. The graphic is perfect.

Canuckles, when you are gone you will be missed.

[Vile Lynn]

Long live Canuckles, the Moose! :cool:

Next RB should be a rabid, bloodied bunny.

[Rickdee]

The people who jumped around previous RB had no problem qualifying and those who didn't jump around had trouble qualifying. Sort of funny if you think about it. The only ones who benefited are the ones who exploited previous RB.....Exactly the ones Gree was trying to stop from jumping.

[Vile Lynn]

I changed my mind, instead of a cute, rabid bunny, the next RB should be a ravenous, greasy hog holding a hammer with money oozing from buldging pockets.

Actually, I don't think jumping was less than last RB.

[justjon]

The people who jumped around previous RB had no problem qualifying and those who didn't jump around had trouble qualifying. Sort of funny if you think about it. The only ones who benefited are the ones who exploited previous RB.....Exactly the ones Gree was trying to stop from jumping.

That may be true for your syndicate, but not for all. None from our group have ever been 'jumpers' and other than a few low level players, we had no trouble qualifying. This set up was great for us.

[Weasel]

The people who jumped around previous RB had no problem qualifying and those who didn't jump around had trouble qualifying. Sort of funny if you think about it. The only ones who benefited are the ones who exploited previous RB.....Exactly the ones Gree was trying to stop from jumping.

How do you figure people had trouble qualifying? It doesn't seem like the intention is for everyone to be able to qualify for the strongest bosses. It seemed to me that the intention was for groups to stick together and make as much progress into the goal chains as they could, and once their limit was reached, to hit bosses for which they could qualify and try to get stronger so they could qualify for stronger bosses.

The raid boss event was previously an excersize in seeing who could tap the most times for the longest period of time. This one actually had a fair bit of strategy to it, and personally, I thought that made it the best Raid Boss event to date.

[justjon]

How do you figure people had trouble qualifying? It doesn't seem like the intention is for everyone to be able to qualify for the strongest bosses. It seemed to me that the intention was for groups to stick together and make as much progress into the goal chains as they could, and once their limit was reached, to hit bosses for which they could qualify and try to get stronger so they could qualify for stronger bosses.

The raid boss event was previously an excersize in seeing who could tap the most times for the longest period of time. This one actually had a fair bit of strategy to it, and personally, I thought that made it the best Raid Boss event to date.

I agree with this post.

[Dipstik]

I agree with this post.

I agree with the post that this post agrees with.

[Sandukan]

How do you figure people had trouble qualifying? It doesn't seem like the intention is for everyone to be able to qualify for the strongest bosses. It seemed to me that the intention was for groups to stick together and make as much progress into the goal chains as they could, and once their limit was reached, to hit bosses for which they could qualify and try to get stronger so they could qualify for stronger bosses.

The raid boss event was previously an excersize in seeing who could tap the most times for the longest period of time. This one actually had a fair bit of strategy to it, and personally, I thought that made it the best Raid Boss event to date.

Who cares what the intention was? The fact of the matter is if you create an event that has several options then individuals will choose which option best serves them.
CC isn't "Criminal Commune" where we hold hands and grow together. There are enough events where syndicates are locked and you are stuck with each other.

So tired of seeing people espouse what they THINK GREE intended for an event when the event design clearly betrays those assumptions.

[Weasel]

CC isn't "Criminal Commune" where we hold hands and grow together.

Indeed it isn't... I'd be curious to hear how else you would describe syndicate jumping, if not as a community holding hands to help each other grow together.

[Dipstik]

It's pretty safe to assume that gree has at least two goals: 1) Design a good game and 2) Make money.

At least when I make arguments based on basic game theory, I'm working from the assumption that good game design goes under goal #1. If your game is literally just a matter of performing repetitive actions in order to watch a number on your screen grow, you don't have a good game. Syndicates add an element of teamwork. In order for that element to be used to its fullest, you have to provide an incentive to work within your team. In the last raid boss event, you gained more stats by working on your own than you did by staying with your team and actually finishing the goals. Another problem is that you don't actually have to work within your team to finish the goals if any number of outside players can jump in and finish the goals for you.

Another problem is game balance. Legendary prizes are really good. As such, you can only get them from beating high level bosses that have a lot of health. Under ordinary game design, those bosses would be difficult to beat for a 60 person team, and they would require a lot of health and/or gold from each player in order to get them. They are essentially limited because only 60 people could get a reward from each boss, and each player has to invest a lot of time into earning one. Jumping threw the balance out of whack because not only could [BossHealth/MinimumContribution] players get the prize from each boss, but each player only had to contribute 25 health. This led to far more boss kill prizes being awarded than there should have been.

I assumed based upon Assumed Gree Goal #1 that they considered this a problem. I suggested that the syndicates should be locked, but it looks like they found a more elegant solution... they increased the minimum contribution. You can still jump, but the total number of prizes awarded will be far lower, and people will have less of an incentive to work outside their syndicate.

[Sandukan]

Indeed it isn't... I'd be curious to hear how else you would describe syndicate jumping, if not as a community holding hands to help each other grow together.

Jumping is simple.
Syndicate needs help in a criminal enterprise.
They hire a skilled individual to help them get the job accomplished.
Individual gets paid for the work.

It surely is not:
Lets go rob a bank.
Nope can't do it because a few of our crew are not equipped to pull off the job.
Well lets just rob Lemonade stands until we they can pull off a bigger heist.

[Dipstik]

Gameplay arguments from a flavor perspective are a waste of time. Everyone can come up with a plot scenario that supports whatever they want to believe.

OMG you'd never see [insert real life gang A] working with [insert real life gang B]!

[Weasel]

Jumping is simple.
Syndicate needs help in a criminal enterprise.
They hire a skilled individual to help them get the job accomplished.
Individual gets paid for the work.

It surely is not:
Lets go rob a bank.
Nope can't do it because a few of our crew are not equipped to pull off the job.
Well lets just rob Lemonade stands until we they can pull off a bigger heist.

There might be a very specific response to this that wouldn't result in an infraction, but I have neither the time nor desire to think of it. Have a gif:

http://i.imgur.com/nydSK0N.gif

[Sandukan]

There might be a very specific response to this that wouldn't result in an infraction, but I have neither the time nor desire to think of it. Have a gif:



Why? Because you cannot concisely articulate the communist manifesto?
Wars are locked.
SA is locked.
RB not locked.

You can hit a boss in RB and go back to a syndicate later to collect.
Is that an accident or loophole? No other event you can get a prize while not in a syndicate when prize was distributed. Sounds like somebody coded that in don't you think?
Based on those factors alone I can only presume that GREE did not only INTEND for this to happen they wrote it directly into the code.

Ahh but you and your ilk are too busy/lazy or such game purist that you can't seem to bring yourself to do what does not make sense to you.
Understandable. Not enough people making principled stances in the world.
But to openly and vociferously undermine the practice while claiming not to care either way is a bit disingenuous don't you think?

[Weasel]

Why? Because you cannot concisely articulate the communist manifesto?
Wars are locked.
SA is locked.
RB not locked.

You can hit a boss in RB and go back to a syndicate later to collect.
Is that an accident or loophole? No other event you can get a prize while not in a syndicate when prize was distributed. Sounds like somebody coded that in don't you think?
Based on those factors alone I can only presume that GREE did not only INTEND for this to happen they wrote it directly into the code.

Ahh but you and your ilk are too busy/lazy or such game purist that you can't seem to bring yourself to do what does not make sense to you.
Understandable. Not enough people making principled stances in the world.
But to openly and vociferously undermine the practice while claiming not to care either way is a bit disingenuous don't you think?

At this point it is safest for me to just assume you are trolling. Some of your statements are incorrect and your borderline ad hominem arguments are indicative of a troll post, so I will just say this:

Post read. Bait not taken.

[Sandukan]

At this point it is safest for me to just assume you are trolling. Some of your statements are incorrect and your borderline ad hominem arguments are indicative of a troll post, so I will just say this:

Post read. Bait not taken.

I will take your lack of response as tacit acknowledgement that I am indeed correct.

[Weasel]

Now you're just trying too hard. Troll someone else, you've now emptied my bag of troll food.

[Sandukan]

Now you're just trying too hard. Troll someone else, you've now emptied my bag of troll food.

I don't roll.
I try not to insult.
I've played this game at ever level possible.
From free play to being in the number 1 syndicate.

Hey, I just thought you enjoyed discussing game mechanics and GREE intentions.

If GREE didn't want people to jump why did they make it so that you can go back to a syndicate to collect a prize after boss is down and you weren't there?
It's a simple question.

Stone me with reason......

[Vile Lynn]

You know..... In the little RB intro, GREE says, 'With the help of your syndicate, kill RB.'

(or something like that. I'm sure somebody knows the exact phrase.)

[Dipstik]

I don't roll.
I try not to insult.
I've played this game at ever level possible.
From free play to being in the number 1 syndicate.

Hey, I just thought you enjoyed discussing game mechanics and GREE intentions.

If GREE didn't want people to jump why did they make it so that you can go back to a syndicate to collect a prize after boss is down and you weren't there?
It's a simple question.

Stone me with reason......

I notice you ignored me when I addressed your argument on the merits. That makes me tend toward agreeing with weasel.

[Sandukan]

I notice you ignored me when I addressed your argument on the merits. That makes me tend toward agreeing with weasel.

Missed it. I sometimes start a response and work interrupts. By the time I get back I may miss a post or two.
Going back to read now.

[Sandukan]

It's pretty safe to assume that gree has at least two goals: 1) Design a good game and 2) Make money.

At least when I make arguments based on basic game theory, I'm working from the assumption that good game design goes under goal #1. If your game is literally just a matter of performing repetitive actions in order to watch a number on your screen grow, you don't have a good game. Syndicates add an element of teamwork. In order for that element to be used to its fullest, you have to provide an incentive to work within your team. In the last raid boss event, you gained more stats by working on your own than you did by staying with your team and actually finishing the goals. Another problem is that you don't actually have to work within your team to finish the goals if any number of outside players can jump in and finish the goals for you.

Another problem is game balance. Legendary prizes are really good. As such, you can only get them from beating high level bosses that have a lot of health. Under ordinary game design, those bosses would be difficult to beat for a 60 person team, and they would require a lot of health and/or gold from each player in order to get them. They are essentially limited because only 60 people could get a reward from each boss, and each player has to invest a lot of time into earning one. Jumping threw the balance out of whack because not only could [BossHealth/MinimumContribution] players get the prize from each boss, but each player only had to contribute 25 health. This led to far more boss kill prizes being awarded than there should have been.

I assumed based upon Assumed Gree Goal #1 that they considered this a problem. I suggested that the syndicates should be locked, but it looks like they found a more elegant solution... they increased the minimum contribution. You can still jump, but the total number of prizes awarded will be far lower, and people will have less of an incentive to work outside their syndicate.

1. I agree with your two fundamental assumptions that GREE wants a good product and to make money.
2. I agree that the creation of syndicates added a nice layer to the game.
3. I disagree that because syndicates are good forcing everyone to work in syndicates is always good.

Jumping does not negatively affect game balance. All the weapons I earned last month from farming RB are pretty much obsolete now - I must keep farming. All I achieved from farming each cycle is a momentary advantage. So we can agree that jumpers don't really gain anything that isn't negated very quickly.

What about the syndicate that got help? By your logic GREE didn't intend for them to finish. In fact based on the last RB only a handful of teams could finish. Does GREE intend for the majority of their patrons to be frustrated and cater to only a few that can complete the events? What would happen if the same teams continue to be the only ones able to complete the RB event ? Wouldn't GREE then have to basically create two games since one set of obstacles would be too easy for some(the heavy senders) but too onerous for rest ( moderate to light spenders)? Wouldn't that be worst for balance?

Heavy gold spenders by default would rather trade gold for time. They usually don't farm on the industrial level of a light to moderate spender. Allowing farming prevents a giant gulf from being created between the heavy spenders and the rest of the players. GREE needs this. People don't usually run unless they feel someone is chasing them.

[Dipstik]

Yes. I have said many times that if you're not willing to spend gold and your syndicate isn't strong enough, YOURE NOT SUPPOSED TO FINISH ELITE MODE! if you assume otherwise, we'll never agree.

And the top syndicates really don't care about middling level syndicates who don't spend gold. They spend to play against eachother. People farming free items off raid bosses aren't even a blip on the radar.

[Sandukan]

Yes. I have said many times that if you're not willing to spend gold and your syndicate isn't strong enough, YOURE NOT SUPPOSED TO FINISH ELITE MODE! if you assume otherwise, we'll never agree.

And the top syndicates really don't care about middling level syndicates who don't spend gold. They spend to play against eachother. People farming free items off raid bosses aren't even a blip on the radar.

We can agree to disagree on what makes a good game in terms of completing events.
GREE has always made syndicate events doable until lately. It rewards participation/teamwork and not necessarily spending.

By the way, middling level syndicates aren't the ones profiting most from farming. Its the players trying to maintain top 10 or top 20 team stats. Mostly moderate gold spenders. The top teams have to complete a roster and not everyone can spend at that level consistently or indefinitely.