Let strippers and gemmers have their own war!

[roookey1]

GREE, LET THOSE DIRTY STRIPPERS, GUILD JUMPERS AND GEMMERS HAVE THEIR OWN WARS, AND LEAVE THE REST OF US BE!!!

I am sick and tired of going into these friggin' tiresome 3-day wars for a mere, friggin' legendary reward and having guild members constantly demotivated by having their sleeping or working teammates getting overkilled by gemmers for dozens of times, thus not having a ****in' (now I said it!) chance to win a battle. Show me any good game or a situation in life where you can kill a person for dozens of times. No, here it is yet just there to make people spend, and they even get rewarded by getting the same points credited every time they do it. If you really think that something like this drives the 'victims' into gemming too - well it may do for some, but most of the ones I know are just disgusted, annoyed, ANGRY and frustrated. They will - sooner or later - leave the game as wars are such an essential part of it, and then it's over for them spending gems on armors/chests, bosses, in raids (where there are at least rewards for effort) or in the arena.

I would like to ask other guilds that are not into gemming/win-buying (under the current circumstances, where there are not even rewards justifying the expense) to do the same and not to spend gems in wars until the war system has been improved.

[Ant venom]

Rookeye1 this game is a p2w game and if u are not satisfied than quit the game. GREE isn't going to let us mess around and get free war epics. Gems are required if u are going to be any good and so if ur guild is just not decent at all and de ide to f2p than that is your problem not GREE's problem.

[Regretz]

Completely agree. Let those that "earn" their war epics (if stripping, guild hopping, and cheating the system in every way possible is how you earn those) have their own war. Lets face it, they war completely different from the regular guilds. They strip, all declare at the same time so they have a good chance of getting set up against each other, and just any other way to get around the system. That isnt warring or "earning your epics" as they like to huff and puff about on these forums.

So let the normal guilds that play the wars correctly WITHOUT cheating your system have their own war. Then let those ignorant few have their other war. Trust me, the guilds that play correctly would then be enticed to spend gems, thus increasing profits for GREE. And the cheating war would still be full of those tickle fights and fusion boost armor wearing GMs that win the wars now.

[Ant venom]

Regretz what your saying is give gemmers their own war and then entice normal guilds to gem because of that seperation. But doesnt that mean u are still gemming and sooner or later wouldn't everyone be together again because of gemming and wouldn't it just be like before?

[Ant venom]

And plus how would GREE tell if a guild is a gemming/stripping guild (of u can even call that cheating) or not, I mean what if a guild decides to push only in one war and not push again, wouldn't that be unfair since then those one-time pushers will have to fight and lose almost every battle.

[Lord P]

GREE, LET THOSE DIRTY STRIPPERS, GUILD JUMPERS AND GEMMERS HAVE THEIR OWN WARS, AND LEAVE THE REST OF US BE!!!

I am sick and tired of going into these friggin' tiresome 3-day wars for a mere, friggin' legendary reward and having guild members constantly demotivated by having their sleeping or working teammates getting overkilled by gemmers for dozens of times, thus not having a ****in' (now I said it!) chance to win a battle. Show me any good game or a situation in life where you can kill a person for dozens of times. No, here it is yet just there to make people spend, and they even get rewarded by getting the same points credited every time they do it. If you really think that something like this drives the 'victims' into gemming too - well it may do for some, but most of the ones I know are just disgusted, annoyed, ANGRY and frustrated. They will - sooner or later - leave the game as wars are such an essential part of it, and then it's over for them spending gems on armors/chests, bosses, in raids (where there are at least rewards for effort) or in the arena.

I would like to ask other guilds that are not into gemming/win-buying (under the current circumstances, where there are not even rewards justifying the expense) to do the same and not to spend gems in wars until the war system has been improved.
If you guys are serious about this then you better start coming up with some good ideas how Gree could even implement this.

How would Gree determine an Alliance Guild?

How would Gree determine a Gem spending Guild?

How would Gree determine a Stripping Guild?

Now consider this.... even if Gree does have the answers to this, why would they get rid of their money maker so that f2p people could have their own tournaments? Chances are they would not, so that means they now have to organize two tournaments............ Then what would the prizes be like? I would expect old Epic Boss Plus armor as the T1 prize, with even worse stuff for placing lower. People can already gain prizes like that now and Gree wouldn't have the headache of trying to facilitate two tournaments at the same time.

Now I must admit the idea of a Gem free war does sound interesting...... it would certainly show which guild gets the most out of their free energy. However even if you identify all the Gemming, stripping, alliance guilds and keep them from participating in such a cool tournament, what's to stop the guilds that do participate from stripping or sharing players?

I have to ask the question again....... why would Gree do this? Just sayin'

[Ant venom]

If you guys are serious about this then you better start coming up with some good ideas how Gree could even implement this.

How would Gree determine an Alliance Guild?

How would Gree determine a Gem spending Guild?

How would Gree determine a Stripping Guild?

Now consider this.... even if Gree does have the answers to this, why would they get rid of their money maker so that f2p people could have their own tournaments? Chances are they would not, so that means they now have to organize two tournaments............ Then what would the prizes be like? I would expect old Epic Boss Plus armor as
the T1 prize, with even worse stuff for placing lower. People can already gain prizes like that now and Gree wouldn't
have the headache of trying to facilitate two tournaments at the same time.

Now I must admit the idea of a Gem free war does sound interesting...... it would certainly show which guild gets the
most out of their free energy. However even if you identify all the Gemming, stripping, alliance guilds and keep
them from participating in such a cool tournament, what's to stop the guilds that do participate from stripping or
sharing players?

I have to ask the question again....... why would Gree do this? Just sayin'

+1, exactly what I said before.

[Smiley80]

Rumor has it that blitz wars are comming back as gem free wars (i.e. can't use gems). It will be implemented once the get all the bugs out! (I think they also increased the energy regenation to 12.5 min/energy) but the last part was not confirmed.

My prediction is the best will remain the best and the complainers will still lose and find something else to complain about.

[Ant venom]

Smiley how can u prove that the prediction is correct and why would u believe rumors, u need substantial information if u are going to prove u are correct.

[Lord P]

My prediction is the best will remain the best and the complainers will still lose and find something else to complain about.
You know that's right!

[Fossil]

First and foremost, GREE is in the business to make money. What you suggest goes against their very reason for GREE's existence. Perhaps KnD is not the game for you if the prospect of spending money to win goes against your grain. I can think of no game or sport where money does not play a major role unless it is a board game like chess or Monopoly.

[roookey1]

The system would actually be very easy to fix and turn fairer:

- Simply reduce points by 20-30% every time the same opponent is hit, up to 0% after the 4th time (when regular energy is used up).

- Restrict guild hopping to twice a month (this would have other positive side-effects, too).

- Automatically assign guilds that spend more than, let's say, 50 gems during a battle, to a different level of war competition where they'll face their own likes. There, they'll probably even (have to!) spend more, while the ones that wouldn't gem/win-buy anyway wouldn't get frustrated and angry with the game.

- the rewards for 3 days of constant 'fighting' / hanging in front of our smartphones in order to prevent getting over-killed too often are nothing but a joke! I don't know how many guilds that could actually perform between #500 and #26 because of their size and strength don't even participate anymore to save their time for these crappy rewards.

Effort doesn't pay off at all with the current wars.

I don't care, just give those 'war armors' to the gemmers/win buyers, I don't have any respect for those guilds anyway and they shall hang a printout of their sprites over their bed if they are so happy with them. But give some enticement for real EFFORT, and don't match those organized win-buying gangs with guilds consisting of people who have a job, family and want to play for fun instead of getting pissed off when they see how they got sucked off for points and killed dozens if not hundreds of times while being away for a few hours. It's friggin' ridiculous!!!

[Ant venom]

Rookeye1 you are just saying this because u are arrogant and can't stand losing, but that is just life and life is unfair.

[roookey1]

We didn't 'lose' at all. We're just hugely pissed off by the way wars currently work.

On average, I'm doing at least double as many points as you're proudly stating, my friend. But without gemming. So no reason to insult me. And that's exactly the point: someone who is not able, will 'need' this system the way it is in order to be able to exploit it to his favor. All others are majorly disgruntled because whether or not they are doing their best in wars, it makes no noticable difference at all.

As it is right now, wars are only interesting (in terms of rewards) for the top 10 guilds. The top 10 however, HAVE TO gem and cheat the system by stripping etc., there is simply no other way to make these points. I say: let them do it. Up to them.
But why does a 30-40 persons guild of which 20-30 are active whenever they can, have to 'lose' whenever they are facing a guild with 5-10 active players of which 1-2 simply buy them a win by killing 1 absent player for dozens of times? This is utterly stupid and unfair! It actually doesn't help the win-buying guild to achieve better rewards, so it's just for the mere ego-boost of their gemmer(s). Also: so far, so good, up to them. But elevate them to another pool of guilds competing with their likes: that way, the gemmer's guild could even make it higher to the top because there's less competition in their pool, while the non-gemming guild doesn't get angry whenever a new war is announced. Win-win.

[Ant venom]

Same difference as to losing Rookeye1

[London Knight]

It is getting a bit silly with 10,000s of Gems being spent by EACH Top #50 Guild. About 8 months ago it used to be 400K points would get you into Top #250 - NOW it's about 950K+ points & things are still escalating
.. This can't go on forever & something has to give soon.

[Ant venom]

Everything has to escalate, I mean 10 years ago $10 is worth like $1 or something nowadays, and escalation means progress so i dont think it is silly, and people dont need to spend 10,000s of gems 5000 is sufficient enough for like 75O,OO0k points.

[Fossil]

It is getting a bit silly with 10,000s of Gems being spent by EACH Top #50 Guild. About 8 months ago it used to be 400K points would get you into Top #250 - NOW it's about 950K+ points & things are still escalating
.. This can't go on forever & something has to give soon.

This is a bit of an exaggeration. T50 is not that expensive and really isn't worth gemming for in the first place. In my humble opinion, neither is T25. Yeah, lately the T25 armor has been a bit better but still no better than what can be fused in most circumstances.

You are right in the observation that it can't go on forever. There have been many "retirements" as of late and those who are staying are cutting back on their spending. Will this make it a better game for everyone else? No, it will only speed the sunset of the game as revenues decline and a new game is introduced to take its place.

[Morg]

Regretz what your saying is give gemmers their own war and then entice normal guilds to gem because of that seperation. But doesnt that mean u are still gemming and sooner or later wouldn't everyone be together again because of gemming and wouldn't it just be like before?

I read it 3x's and saw absolutely no mention nor referense to gemmers. In fact he only mentions gems once and that was in reference to some possibly buying gems if not having to play against cheaters....?..?

[Ant venom]

Please reread the first line Morg

[Morg]

Please reread the first line Morg
Doesn't look like first line changed any, he still said nothing about giving gemmers their own war and then entice etc etc and the rest of the first line.

[London Knight]

@ Fossil . A guest Guild member from my Friend list spent 400 Gems a few months back for a Top #250 finish. He was previously in a Top #50/#25 Guild & stated that he liked our relaxed attitude & happy to spend the 400 , rather than the 2,000+ he'd spent the previous 3 Day War. And others in that Guild had spent more! I'm now pretty powerful & have been asked to join a couple of Top Guilds regardless of Gemming as I can play 24/7. I don't think I could cope with that stress level - & my slow device would probably melt too .
.. heh.

[Ant venom]

London when u say pretty powerful what do u mean, I mean a noob would say having a blazeborne is pretty powerful

[Fossil]

@ Fossil . A guest Guild member from my Friend list spent 400 Gems a few months back for a Top #250 finish. He was previously in a Top #50/#25 Guild & stated that he liked our relaxed attitude & happy to spend the 400 , rather than the 2,000+ he'd spent the previous Day War. And others in that Guild had spent more! I'm now pretty powerful & have been asked to join a couple of Top Guilds regardless of Gemming as I can play 24/7. I don't think I could cope with that stress level - & my slow device would probably melt too .
.. heh.

I've never spent more than a rainbow pack fighting a T10 and could easily hit 300k on the old scoring system. I guess it's a matter of how strong your armor is

[Konny]

But why does a 30-40 persons guild of which 20-30 are active whenever they can, have to 'lose' whenever they are facing a guild with 5-10 active players of which 1-2 simply buy them a win by killing 1 absent player for dozens of times? This is utterly stupid and unfair!

This is neither stupid nor unfair, it is just the nature of the game. Knights and Dragons is pay2win to its inner core, if you can't accept that than maybe try another game where you have more fun.

[watermelon]

GREE, LET THOSE DIRTY STRIPPERS, GUILD JUMPERS AND GEMMERS HAVE THEIR OWN WARS, AND LEAVE THE REST OF US BE!!!

I am sick and tired of going into these friggin' tiresome 3-day wars for a mere, friggin' legendary reward and having guild members constantly demotivated by having their sleeping or working teammates getting overkilled by gemmers for dozens of times, thus not having a ****in' (now I said it!) chance to win a battle. Show me any good game or a situation in life where you can kill a person for dozens of times. No, here it is yet just there to make people spend, and they even get rewarded by getting the same points credited every time they do it. If you really think that something like this drives the 'victims' into gemming too - well it may do for some, but most of the ones I know are just disgusted, annoyed, ANGRY and frustrated. They will - sooner or later - leave the game as wars are such an essential part of it, and then it's over for them spending gems on armors/chests, bosses, in raids (where there are at least rewards for effort) or in the arena.

I would like to ask other guilds that are not into gemming/win-buying (under the current circumstances, where there are not even rewards justifying the expense) to do the same and not to spend gems in wars until the war system has been improved.

hahahaha
shut up and buy gems

hate the game, don't hate the player

by the way, we do have our own game and that game is Knd and you are on our turf. As a free player, you are our easy farmables with your inferior resistant fire power and inferior fused epics that are so easy to kill. You are our easy prey. You exist so that we can have something easy to beat. Did you actually think that you have a shot at T10 without spending a single dime? Think again. Resent your position? Buy gems.

[zhaneel]

The only thing that has changed is the scoring system. Guilds are still spending the same amount to win wars, with the odd war costing more due to a higher interest in the armor.

The way wars work now is good and so are the rewards. The more people get the more they seem to want. Gree has been improving the game heaps for f2p players and it is much more playable than it used to be. Raids were introduced so that you can get rewarded more for the activity you put in and epics are easier to fuse than ever. Not to mention how quickly they become fusible after being released in chests.

Please find more proactive ways to complain by focusing on stuff that can actually be changed, like glitches/exploits and newer content that needs polishing like the heroic mode.

[geo81]

I go t10 a lot, I haven't spent a penny on this game. Takes forever saving gems from arena, wars, raids and videos, but hey. I got awesome armors and cost me nothing but some time. I actually saved enough for a chance at t1 one weekend. Free war epic+. :)

[Rhaegal]

Ok let's start with the basics

1) gemming isn't cheating. ITS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE ENTIRE GAME! Chests, wars, raids, arena, epic boss, and eventually heroic mode are all designed so that you will SPEND GEMS TO GET THE PRIZES.

2) stripping isn't cheating, it's a tactic. Some use it, some don't, but it's your own choice on what you want to do. GREE HAS KNOWN ABOUT STRIPPING FOR WELL OVER A YEAR AND DONE NOTHING TO STOP IT! So it's not cheating, get those words out of your mouth. I don't strip, my guild doesn't strip, we CHOOSE not to, but we don't blame those that do.

3) "guild hopping" as you put it, or more to the point, alliances, ARENT CHEATING! Again, gree has known about it for OVER A YEAR ago and has chosen to do nothing to stop it.

I'm sorry you can't accept the game for what it is. It is a slot machine/cash register requiring very little skill. That's what it is designed to be.

And gree would never/will never stop gemming unless it suits them to do so. They might stop it for fusion blitz wars because most people don't gem those anyway. But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this either.

But the PURCHASE AND SPENDING OF GEMS IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE ENTIRE GAME! You may as well ask them to stop having chance chests while you're at it. I mean chance chests are cheating too right? They allow players to spend gems for epics and armors they didn't earn! That's the same as "buying" war wins right? I mean heck chests may even be worse than gemming during wars. In wars you have to kill someone, with chests you don't have to do anything but spend $$$.

But see you wont complain about chance chests because YOU use them and that makes it ok doesn't it?

[Phill - Immortal GM]

Ok let's start with the basics

1) gemming isn't cheating. ITS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE ENTIRE GAME! Chests, wars, raids, arena, epic boss, and eventually heroic mode are all designed so that you will SPEND GEMS TO GET THE PRIZES.

2) stripping isn't cheating, it's a tactic. Some use it, some don't, but it's your own choice on what you want to do. GREE HAS KNOWN ABOUT STRIPPING FOR WELL OVER A YEAR AND DONE NOTHING TO STOP IT! So it's not cheating, get those words out of your mouth. I don't strip, my guild doesn't strip, we CHOOSE not to, but we don't blame those that do.

3) "guild hopping" as you put it, or more to the point, alliances, ARENT CHEATING! Again, gree has known about it for OVER A YEAR ago and has chosen to do nothing to stop it.

I'm sorry you can't accept the game for what it is. It is a slot machine/cash register requiring very little skill. That's what it is designed to be.

And gree would never/will never stop gemming unless it suits them to do so. They might stop it for fusion blitz wars because most people don't gem those anyway. But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this either.

But the PURCHASE AND SPENDING OF GEMS IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE ENTIRE GAME! You may as well ask them to stop having chance chests while you're at it. I mean chance chests are cheating too right? They allow players to spend gems for epics and armors they didn't earn! That's the same as "buying" war wins right? I mean heck chests may even be worse than gemming during wars. In wars you have to kill someone, with chests you don't have to do anything but spend $$$.

But see you wont complain about chance chests because YOU use them and that makes it ok doesn't it?


Why hello there, a logical post!
+1, despite me understanding the original idea for this thread. It is not reasonable to change at all, and it simply won't ever fully happen. Take it or leave it, as harsh as it sounds this is the way it is.

Cheers;
~ Phill

[London Knight]

@Ant Venom: I am fairly powerful: Level 1,100+, GM of Lvl 75 Guild with 37 Active out of 40 members & as of last night all 40 Element Bonuses. I can field 3 Knights in Arena, all with over 3,000 on BOTH Attack & Defence stats. Came Top #8 twice on Epic Bosses, scored over 16 Million+ damage during one Raid & Ranked #68 in Arena - with a 33 win streak without exploiting a glitch. Only thing I lack is any duel Element Epic+ Armours & Arena Medals. I dislike 'boasting', draw your own conclusions.

[Ant venom]

London I only wanted to know about ur epics not stats because I am sure u are powerful in stats.

[Scabs]

OP, top guilds don't win solely because they spend more gems. They/we win because they/we put in a lot of work and time coordinating....a lot. You are complaining because you don't want to put in this same level of work and effort and just want war and raid epics handed to you? You are just grossly misinformed on how top guilds operate.

[Ant venom]

Exactly Scabs, Rookeye1 just doesnt like the fact that HE is losing and he wphas tto win, olus he is calling stripping cheating and not a form of tactic because his intelligence doesnt bring him there and probably know one wants to strip for him anyways so that is why he is whinin.

[Ju Nation]

Those saying that they are not gemming and putting in a lot of effort are ????

Do you have any idea how hard it is to coordinate a top guild much less an alliance?

So you dont gem? Then you can continue to enjoy the game by fighting it out for t1000? Or just do eb and heroic... Just skip the GWs ...

Raids are also for you then ... I once upon a time also dont gem, i hated the game.

I only started enjoying the game after i started gemming. Maybe you would like to try it too.

I have spend lots of time n effort to get to where i am in the game so far.

Founder of the only undefeated t10 guild in ios. Part of the rainbow alliance and non-stripped.( yes we get t10 w/o strips)

Multi times top 1 runs. Arena black medalist.

I think i earned my rights to speak up. :)

[Crypt Keepers]

Founder of the only undefeated t10 guild in ios.
Curious as to what this means...never lost a battle?...won every war?

[Ju Nation]

Curious as to what this means...never lost a battle?...won every war?

Yup. You're correct ... On ios ... Not android though :)

[Mike WDragon]

Just went t10 this past war and we were strictly NON STRIP. Its absolutely possible to score those points for t10 without stripping. But that's just my guilds preference.

And I also get a good amount of gems for free from vids, arena, raid, eb, etc. Just take a little time to save them up but the rewards are worth it :D

[MisterT]

As it is right now, wars are only interesting (in terms of rewards) for the top 10 guilds. The top 10 however, HAVE TO gem and cheat the system by stripping etc., there is simply no other way to make these points.

That's BS because World Dragons (iOS) didn't strip and got T10, simply by spending lot's of money.





But why does a 30-40 persons guild of which 20-30 are active whenever they can, have to 'lose' whenever they are facing a guild with 5-10 active players of which 1-2 simply buy them a win by killing 1 absent player for dozens of times? This is utterly stupid and unfair! It actually doesn't help the win-buying guild to achieve better rewards, so it's just for the mere ego-boost of their gemmer(s). Also: so far, so good, up to them. But elevate them to another pool of guilds competing with their likes: that way, the gemmer's guild could even make it higher to the top because there's less competition in their pool, while the non-gemming guild doesn't get angry whenever a new war is announced. Win-win.

If i as C, HC, GC or GS can kill GM for good points, i will keep killing GM and use gems to do it. Spending gems is the only way to get good reward.

If you can't stand losing to gemmers, then you may as well quite because Gree needs the gemmers as they bring in the money. No money, no game.

[Ant venom]

That's BS because World Dragons (iOS) didn't strip and got T10, simply by spending lot's of money.




If i as C, HC, GC or GS can kill GM for good points, i will keep killing GM and use gems to do it. Spending gems is the only way to get good reward.

If you can't stand losing to gemmers, then you may as well quite because Gree needs the gemmers as they bring in the money. No money, no game.

+1 MisterT, right to the point and exactly what everyone has been saying for the past like 7 posts in an attempt to keep Rookeye1 quiet and stop spamming the forums with this exact same topic.

[roookey1]

i will keep killing GM and use gems to do it. Spending gems is the only way to get good reward.

so what was your 'good reward' from last war, would you mind telling us?

If you weren't among the T10, you got some outdated, fusible epic (of which I'm sure you'll already had 3 from those chests anyway), and that would even be lucky, because below T25, it would have been a crappy, outdated legendary, and only fusion fodder crap below T500. For an endless 3 DAY WAR event!!! Totally NOT worth spending ANY gems at all, everyone who says otherwise must either need the 'position' itself as an questionable ego-boost, or simply be stupid.

As I said b4, if the ones who at least receive some 'war armor' putting them ahead by 1-3 months to the chest buyers and 10 to the free players find those sprites worth spending hundreds if not thousands of greenbacks, up to them. Really. But for anyone else (especially the casual players, NOT GM's of course, who will usually have a different take), the current war system is utterly pointless to invest serious effort for. You, the GM's arrogantly patronizing me in here, may tell yourself otherwise, and go on 'selling' to your guild mates that it's oh-so great to be 'T200' or 'T50', but if you're honest you will have to admit that this is actually B.S., and the only justifyable reason to spend gems is if your guild has a realistic chance of reaching T10.

[Ant venom]

so what was your 'good reward' from last war, would you mind telling us?

If you weren't among the T10, you got some outdated, fusible epic (of which I'm sure you'll already had 3 from those chests anyway), and that would even be lucky, because below T25, it would have been a crappy, outdated legendary, and only fusion fodder crap below T500. For an endless 3 DAY WAR event!!! Totally NOT worth spending ANY gems at all, everyone who says otherwise must either need the 'position' itself as an questionable ego-boost, or simply be stupid.

As I said b4, if the ones who at least receive some 'war armor' putting them ahead by 1-3 months to the chest buyers and 10 to the free players find those sprites worth spending hundreds if not thousands of greenbacks, up to them. Really. But for anyone else (especially the casual players, NOT GM's of course, who will usually have a different take), the current war system is utterly pointless to invest
serious effort for. You, the GM's arrogantly patronizing me in here, may tell yourself otherwise, and go on 'selling' to your guild mates that it's oh-so great to be 'T200' or 'T50', but if you're honest you will
have to admit that this is actually B.S., and the only justifyable reason to spend gems is if your guild
has a realistic chance of reaching T10.

Rookeye1 I have no idea what u said because of grammar so fix it before talking to us and no one told u to spend gems that are bought, u could be just free playing and get gems that way.

[roookey1]

@Ant venom, I didn't even talk to you, so y u 'spam' (with a fullquote, as if that weren't enough)? If you can't get my points due to 'grammer' (sorry that I'm not a native speaker, but at least I learned how to spell words correctly), I'd suppose reason #2 for spending gems applies in your case.

[geo81]

You complain a lot

[Ant venom]

You complain a lot

who does mate?

[dpalbldelf]

Roookey1, I understand your frustration. I understand your position. I was a GM for a while and it is tough and demotivates members when you can't seem to get ahead in wars even though you have more sound tactics and coordination. I've been there. Personally I am a free to play (f2p) gamer myself. However, I fully understand that this is a pay to win (p2w) game. As a free to play game, Gree (right, wrong, or indifferent) only makes money if people buy things in-game (gold, gems, armor). That said, Gree's purpose, as a money making company, is to do code such that people are pushed into purchasing those three options (call them sprites if you wish). The current method of wars pushes people to do this which makes more money for Gree. I cannot think of a reason why Gree would make any changes that would cost them money.
I agree with you that it does seem unfair at times, and is almost always frustrating. My suggestion to you is that if you want something different in wars, think of a method that would allow Gree to continue making the same dollar amounts while allowing f2p guilds the ability to earn better gear. Here's a thought along that line: Have a war where the GM must select whether they want to gem or not to gem. If they select non gem then all the guilds in that bracket fight to earn a regular version of the new epic (no + version). The guilds that select to gem fight in the same manner as it is now with a few more epic armors for the T25 or T50 guilds. This way the p2w guilds have an incentive to gem more for a chance of better gear, while f2p guilds have a shot at a newer epic.

That is a thought that might work. Again Gree is a business whose sole purpose is to make money. Propose options that allow them to continue making the same or more money while offering options to those that can't/don't spend as much. Do that and you might make a difference/change to this game. If not, posts like this just cause more drama, which typically has the opposite effect of what you are intending...unless of course you are just trying to get a rise out of people :) Just my two cents. Have a pleasant day.

[timsta007]

@dpalbldelf - you are on the right track, but your suggestion will not work. The whole reason the current guild war system works is because the T10 reward is so much better compared to everything else. It's all about simple economics, and rookeye, if you understood the economics of this game, you would understand why Gree cannot/will not change things like you are hoping. The most basic economic model is supply and demand. In short, supply and demand are directly tied; if the supply of a desirable product is limited demand for it will increase driving the price higher. In the same way, if the supply of a product increases beyond what a given market demands, the price will drop. A perfect example of this is gas prices in the last few months. Prices have gone way down because the international supply of oil has increased dramatically.

If you are interested in learning more about this, you can read more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

The bottom line is that there is a perfect balance for Gree where they offer a limited supply of the latest armors. This can be accomplished through the Wars/Raids, Chests, or fusion. By offering a limited supply, it causes people to pay more and more for the product resulting in profit for the company. They have no incentive to change unless their product no longer is demanded in the quantities offered. Furthermore, if they offered really good armor in a War/Raid that didn't involve gems, there would be way less incentive for the vast majority of guilds to spend any money. While I sympathize that it's a frustrating situation for someone who doesn't want to spend a lot of money on the game, changing the War/Raid model would be totally against Gree's best interests and until enough players stop paying for the current format, it will not change.

[Rhaegal]

@ roookey1 You're right, the only reason for most developed players to gem is if their guild has a reasonable chance to place t10. But some people just like to gem and have fun. It's fun for them to beat you. It's fun for them to single handedly defeat your guild. And, that's their option. They are free to do so. at that point you have 2 options: 1) counter their gemming with your own gems or 2) take the loss and move on.

My guild doesn't gem much during guild wars unless we are going top 10/25 and we can still place top 250 using just free energy. If we spend minimal gems we can pull a top 100 no problem. And no, none of us really need a 4+ armor except as fusion fodder. But sometimes we do it anyway, BECAUSE WE WANT TO. I'm sorry if this offends you and you think this is unfair.

I did not realize English was not your first language so let me define something for you that seems to be eluding you.

Pay2Win games are by their very definition not fair. They are designed so those that pay Win and those that choose not to pay, lose, or at the very least play with a moderate to severe handicap.

P.s. No one is patronizing you, they are trying desparately to get you to understand how this game works and you don't listen, you insult them instead. I'm starting to wonder if you aren't in fact trolling the forums.

[Phill - Immortal GM]

@dpalbldelf - you are on the right track, but your suggestion will not work. The whole reason the current guild war system works is because the T10 reward is so much better compared to everything else. It's all about simple economics, and rookeye, if you understood the economics of this game, you would understand why Gree cannot/will not change things like you are hoping. The most basic economic model is supply and demand. In short, supply and demand are directly tied; if the supply of a desirable product is limited demand for it will increase driving the price higher. In the same way, if the supply of a product increases beyond what a given market demands, the price will drop. A perfect example of this is gas prices in the last few months. Prices have gone way down because the international supply of oil has increased dramatically.

If you are interested in learning more about this, you can read more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

The bottom line is that there is a perfect balance for Gree where they offer a limited supply of the latest armors. This can be accomplished through the Wars/Raids, Chests, or fusion. By offering a limited supply, it causes people to pay more and more for the product resulting in profit for the company. They have no incentive to change unless their product no longer is demanded in the quantities offered. Furthermore, if they offered really good armor in a War/Raid that didn't involve gems, there would be way less incentive for the vast majority of guilds to spend any money. While I sympathize that it's a frustrating situation for someone who doesn't want to spend a lot of money on the game, changing the War/Raid model would be totally against Gree's best interests and until enough players stop paying for the current format, it will not change.

First of all, exactly.


Second of all, regarding spending gems:
While it might seem stupid to you to only spend gems if you get T10, it doesn't to others. I know some people in my own guild would put up 500K in a Blitz war if I didn't try to stop them from it just for the fun of it.
And this doesn't need to be something that will reward them higher.
If they get the chance to spend 10 Gems to secure Top 50/100 or 1000, they will do it, because they enjoy the guild, the people and the bonds we have created.

E.g. I had someone put up 1.000.000 Points for Stalwart Top 25.
This last Top 10 the same person put up 400K points after 2 hours of the war. What did we do? We asked him to stop. He refused at first until we assured him it won't damage us.
He kept refilling his energy until he had scored roughly 700K. We doubled #11's score and he knew 3 hours in we were secure.

He kept spending. Is he stupid? how so?
If he enjoys it, heck, why not let him do it?
And this goes to a lot of casual spenders.
I would personally rather spend Gems on getting my Guild, not even a ribbon further, but a rank further than going on Top 10 runs. Yes I am a GM and Yes I require good Armor to not be farmed over and over again,
But the last time I really left my homeguild was Bonesaw war which is already ages in the past it seems.
Yet I keep getting new T10 armor. In a technically free to play guild.
Before you now shout out that we do gem. Yes we do, but no one is even encouraged to do so. In fact I usually try to make my members conserve Gems.
If you are at a point where you see 15 people going off with you at the same time on that target, scoring points and feeling satisfied that you have beat a guild you shouldn't have (e.g. beating a Top 10 scheduled guild as a Top 50 runner with a 45k Point min like this war) THEN it may very well be that you spend a lot more gems in a fun run than an actual Top 10.

I know this might be hard to grasp and of course you need the mindset of actually spending a lot. I stopped spending a lot approx. 3 months ago. I still buy some here and there, but they are 100% spent in my own guild, among the usage of up to 85% of Free Energy.
I say this because somewhere above someone claimed that P2P guilds don't put in effort.
Rookey1, I invite you to my guild for a weekend, if you please, and you can tell me how many people that didn't gem were ahead of you, or whether you would be satisfied with their activity.
This is by the way not an attack but a mere offer to show you that, despite having some members that spend 100s of Dollars, call it stupid or not, while others simply either get up during the night or give up their time during the day to spend even that last free energy.

72 hours of war means 172 Energy given none is ever lost. If we are realistic, that's 170 maximum energy without spending Gems.

This past war, I spent 150 gems (15 x 4 = 60 Bonus hits) and I had 223 total hits.
Just to make sure this absolutely reaches you on your side, that means I missed 7 energy (9,8) in total. That equates to roughly 4 hours of inactivity, given that you aren't aware that in order to always spend your energy you don't always need to be at your device (Which basically means in those 90 minutes downtime of reloading energy I can do whatever else I want).
Please assess whether, as a semi-P2P, you deem 68/72 hours of activity trying or not.

THIS is the common picture with many of the people, especially those GMs supposedly haunting you in here, which not only spend (most more than I do) but give up on sleep and move their schedule around whatever you are planning to do.


Now you can go shout that we don't have lives. But if you want to boo us for spending money on a P2W game, or spending more time than you, then something is clearly wrong with your viewpoint on not just this issue as a whole.
(Again, not an attack but merely stating that we DO put in effort, whatever you want to label us as for it doesn't matter, because we could save that time and spend those 300 gems extra - We don't mind.)



I would love to see some more input by you on the weekly feedback page. Those ideas, even if not well thought out, might spark a different idea for GREE which could help us all.
You are likelier to be heard there than here.
And the reason this has grown so big (If we don't count the back and forth catfights with a special someone, lol) is simply that you are putting yourself out there with a majorly different viewpoint on this issue that seems very clear to most of us.

So please, don't get upset about what others may hit you with. They are merely trying to express that the way it works is good and that the way it works is necessary.
I could now further go into supply&demand, but I figured quoting the well written text above me would save us all time, as you are supposed to have read it when commenting below it.

In other words, if you want to join the discussion please make sure you are aware of what has been written so far guys. It will save everyone time and perhaps we might even reach a compromise-like opinion on this issue.


EDIT: English is also not my first language and despite being harsh with grammar I only do this with friends. Why would anyone call someone out on here given he can still read something to the point where it is understandable? I know if we had this conversation in German and people taking part in it who might have only studied or known it for a few years it would be very unfair to call them out.
So before anyone mocks someone in an actual serious & good discussion, put yourselves in their shoes and imagine this was a language you don't speak.
Instead you could actually bring something valuable to the table and not spend your time harassing someone that is getting a lot of hate already for a few grammatical mistakes.

Have a great day,
Cheers;
~ Phill

[roookey1]

Thanks for the last comments ... very reasonable and I can understand your points, Phil, dpalbldelf, timsta and Rhaegal.

I believe I understand the psychology in this game pretty well actually, and I'm also living in this world, realizing that a company wants to make money. What I'm trying to illustrate is that I think creating an atmosphere of reasonable fairness and balance will help the game and thus the company to make more money on the long run, maybe even right away. FYI's, I've been a Shareware developer until about 10 years ago, 'selling' my stuff through Freeware, but whoever wanted advanced features, had to register a license for a fee. People loved the Freeware versions, and spread the word, bringing in more and more users ...and customers. Because even in the Freeware version, I didn't restrict them too much (by that, making them feel B-class and not valued by me 'because I need to make money'), no, they got something decent out of it - only when they needed that little extra feature or wanted to help ongoing development, they bought a license (which equals 'war armor' or 'chest epics' in K&D ...with the only difference being that even the pricey chests mostly return garbage, and even when spending a few gems in wars you only get crappy 'rewards'). For me, my 'give quality to everyone, but extra gimmicks to buyers' worked perfectly, so I think I fairly understand basic market economy, and especially so, longterm customer-bounding strategies.

I know for a fact that many players leave K&D because of a) too obvious money extraction tactics and b) the currently unbalanced war system creating a feeling of pointlessness to invest heartblood. The raids (where effort actually pays off), the improved Arena fights and Heroic mode helped a lot. Only wars remain totally imbalanced and uninteresting (from a strictly rational point of view). I share your take Phil (and if you read some of my previous posts, I posted similar ideas) that at least 2 layers (if that's the right term) of wars would certainly help to take many of these negative feelings away from the players who can't spend any or just little money on the game. I'm not even talking about myself here, I spent more than I'd like to, but I know what it is doing to others in my guild and when I follow the development of the players in my friends list (about half of them high-levels, the other half between L1 and 80): half of the players 'fade out' of the game within a couple of months - effectively meaning that Gree loses them as customers too, because I also don't know anyone who had been playing this game for longer than 6 months who did NOT buy any gems at a certain point.

[Phill - Immortal GM]

Let me deconstruct this briefly just to make sure we are on the same page. Again I feel you are able to judge adequately what is happening - just interpreting it wrong for whatever reason.



What I'm trying to illustrate is that I think creating an atmosphere of reasonable fairness and balance will help the game and thus the company to make more money on the long run, maybe even right away.

I) An unbalance will always exist in a P2W game and by its very definition it should.
II) I personally, having fused armors like Ravage Shieldplate weeks before it was a T25 reward, must say that there is in fact an element of fairness in KnD. Let me elaborate why briefly,

i) The PvP (Player vs. Player) or in general Combat System including both PvP and PvM (P. vs. Monster) in Knights and Dragons is kept fairly simple, to an extent where I can, as a Commander, counter a High commander and given a bit of luck (Luck here meaning not getting misses) even a GM wearing recent (e.g. Kirin, Raptor, Bonesaw) War/Raid Epics [regular] using EB+/Fusable/T25 Epics. This is due to the fact that an elemental counter makes up for a good potion of Attack/Defence stats, up to x00 where x might very well be a number ranging from 4-6. If I counter a lineup well, I can still beat these players. All my War Epics do is excuse misses a bit better.
ii) Whilst the current War Schedule of essentially 1 Generation = 6 weeks may be tedious, it does assure that you can essentially skip a Generation and are still able to perform on par with recent Generations in the normal case.

As long as this is given KnD P2P v F2P is in fact fair and balanced as the bonus such as excusing one or two misses more does make up for the money spent. Obviously as an F2P recent updates such as the 4* Bling as we love calling it does put you in an iffy spot and I do agree the gap P2P vs F2P widens - However it has been pretty close for a while and is widening in reasonable margins.



I've been a Shareware developer until about 10 years ago, 'selling' my stuff through Freeware, but whoever wanted advanced features, had to register a license for a fee. People loved the Freeware versions, and spread the word, bringing in more and more users ...and customers. Because even in the Freeware version, I didn't restrict them too much (by that, making them feel B-class and not valued by me 'because I need to make money')
In fact, GREE is not restricting you at all. See arguments above. Only restriction for F2P is not clicking the refill button, which at times can hurt. Trust me, I wanted to cry when pressing the Power Attack button approximately 800 times last raid. Maybe the fact you are restricted from it is good! Think about the pain it saves you ;).
Here I must also say that I feel the P2P vs F2P gap could for my liking be even a bit wider than it is now, with the ability to make up for it if time is invested as a F2P player. I have written about this on my feedback post in regards to the Fusion of Amulets/Rings - It will take too much time to 100% create a 4* on your own using the drops in monster waves. This needs to be worked on either with increasing the drops or decreasing Silver-Stages. HOWEVER, I feel that this is the only current imbalance. You might experience this different but I know that the F2Ps in my own guild don't feel B-Class. In fact at times the Spenders feel more B-Class than the F2Ps, trust me.


they got something decent out of it - only when they needed that little extra feature or wanted to help ongoing development, they bought a license (which equals 'war armor' or 'chest epics' in K&D ...with the only difference being that even the pricey chests mostly return garbage, and even when spending a few gems in wars you only get crappy 'rewards')
I fully agree that Chests are evil. However, I would claim that, especially explaining what I have in quote#1 and #2, given the information that you can fuse armors such as Undead Robes since (Correct me) over 4 weeks now, the F2Ps DO IN FACT receive something decent out of being F2P and farming for 4*s to fuse them over and over again until after e.g. Fusion 80 getting an armor on par with recent Epics (As long as the difference of hits in PvP isn't given, an armor for me is on Par. This meaning when my Overgrown [Very recent EW] takes as many hits to defeat a Knight wearing armor Z as my Undead Robes, Fusion is fair and worth it). It is here to say that new fusible epics are overdue.



b) the currently unbalanced war system creating a feeling of pointlessness to invest heartblood. The raids (where effort actually pays off), the improved Arena fights and Heroic mode helped a lot. Only wars remain totally imbalanced and uninteresting (from a strictly rational point of view).
This one is interesting. You are mixing something essentially correct up with something that you must seem to misunderstand. You claim raids pay off. Whilst I agree I must say that I wouldn't gem a raid for fusion fodder and enhancement materials, but rather collect those on the way of getting my new War Epic with a nice Bonus. This is exactly the same reason I gem Epic Wars. The Epic Reward. However I do agree that the EW could implement Milestones, as I have addressed it in earlier posts in the feedback sections. I don't think that the imbalance in Epic Wars lays where you see it, but rather in the fact that a 6 week old Raid Epic is almost as good as the newest Epic War Epic+ for the same Element combination.
Milestones would help to make the Epic Wars a bit more enjoyable for F2P, yes, but Milestones aren't the reason the P2Ps gem Raids. Hope that made sense, if not I may elaborate at a later point.


half of the players 'fade out' of the game within a couple of months - effectively meaning that Gree loses them as customers too, because I also don't know anyone who had been playing this game for longer than 6 months who did NOT buy any gems at a certain point.
If only half of these players fade I would say GREE is doing a pretty good job at keeping the other half happy. To play a game like KnD for months without purchasing gems is mainly due to the community - Not the game. As strange as this sounds, it applies.
We have some players that don't buy gems at all. They have been with us on our #1 Raid and 2 of 3 recent Top 10s. They don't buy gems but keep afloat with arena and reward gems as the Video system is currently, let's say, "meh". They wouldn't consider quitting as they don't see this imbalance you speak of at all.


All in all you have some valid points and essentially you are assessing the situation absolutely correct. It somewhere, in my opinion at least, gets lost in your arguments and you confuse the purpose of some of the things you title unfair and bad. This is, again, not a personal attack.
I hope that this deconstruction helped you to see how others would interpret your analysis of the current game situation.


Cheers;
~ Phill

[MisterT]

so what was your 'good reward' from last war, would you mind telling us?



My main didn't get any reward, as it was relaxing. My alt got T10.

[southpaw29]

As a member of two great alliances....The Majestic Alliance in Android and SAE in IOS I can honestly say that there is no pressure for me to spend gems if I dont want. In Android I jump from 2 of the best T50 guilds ITSB, and The Immortals depending on what is needed from the alliance. I have even dropped down to other lower level guilds that have a hard time getting boosts in Blitz wars to help them attain better scoring. In Android my Guild Kings & Conquerors does not ask to spend gems unless going T10 OR T25 and in both cases I get to decide if I want to spend or not. If I dont want to spend, I move to a more relaxed alliance guild. I got lucky and hooked up with great gilds early on in my playing that have helped me grow as a player. People like Phill, Kanga, Everdark, Rook, Mr T, and others have made this game very fun for me to play. The bottom line is GREE is in this to make money. Do I agree with everything they do? Ummm No, but the final decision to play the game and spend or dont spend is up to me.

Good Luck to all Players in finding the guild that is perfect for you.

[Scabs]

^^^People not in an alliance don't like em until they join them. The benefits of a great alliance are numerous and are responsible for so many top players still playing the game. Without alliances, this game would have crashed and burned already.

[UP Tide]

hahahaha
shut up and buy gems


+1

You win this topic.

[ColombianThreatMachine]

It actually would be nice for Gree to implement a gem free, strip free war like 1 every 4 months or something. I know it might possibly cut into their profits but giving free players a chance once in a while isn't going to hurt their bottom line, because they can just replace a fusion war with a gem free, strip free war. In addition, they would attract more free players to the game, which would in turn increase the community which still translates to dollars for Gree because they will get more income generating marketing opportunities. So in the end Gree can still win, but its a small risk for them if it failed, not a huge risk because they can always go back to removing the gem free, strip free war.

[Phill - Immortal GM]

It actually would be nice for Gree to implement a gem free, strip free war like 1 every 4 months or something. I know it might possibly cut into their profits but giving free players a chance once in a while isn't going to hurt their bottom line, because they can just replace a fusion war with a gem free, strip free war. In addition, they would attract more free players to the game, which would in turn increase the community which still translates to dollars for Gree because they will get more income generating marketing opportunities. So in the end Gree can still win, but its a small risk for them if it failed, not a huge risk because they can always go back to removing the gem free, strip free war.

Would love that and would surely be in. Posted this in other threads before. Maybe with the temporary removal of blitzes this is an option to them.

[tableton]

It actually would be nice for Gree to implement a gem free, strip free war like 1 every 4 months or something. I know it might possibly cut into their profits but giving free players a chance once in a while isn't going to hurt their bottom line, because they can just replace a fusion war with a gem free, strip free war. In addition, they would attract more free players to the game, which would in turn increase the community which still translates to dollars for Gree because they will get more income generating marketing opportunities. So in the end Gree can still win, but its a small risk for them if it failed, not a huge risk because they can always go back to removing the gem free, strip free war.

This cuts to the heart of what's at stake here. These F2P games are reliant on whales (big spenders) for financial solvency, but they are reliant on a large and varied player base to keep the whales interested. If the whales were the only folks playing, it would get boring VERY quickly, because the community would be so small. The free players can result in small income through advertising money (free gem videos and offers) and also provide lots of opponents for the whales to pound on in the Arena and in war.

This means that Gree has to do a balancing act. They have to keep the whales on top, but not drive all the free players straight to the bottom. If the free players feel like they can never get ahead and never get good stuff without spending, they'll simply leave and Gree's player community will shrink, ultimately killing the game. By allowing dedicated free players to earn epics through the Heroic levels and through chests and fusion, they are basically making a nod to the free players.

Now, given the insane rate at which epics spew forth as event rewards and how stingy the chest and fusion rates are, I think the free/pay balance may still need some adjustment. Things have definitely gotten better for the free players, and in turn better for the whales. But I think there's still more work to do for the folks at Gree. Any F2P game like this is going to have growing pains, and signs are good that Gree is really starting to get their head around the role free players have to play in keeping the whales on-board.

[roookey1]

If the free players feel like they can never get ahead and never get good stuff without spending, they'll simply leave
I think that during the last months, Gree has done a really good job in giving so-called 'free' players* incentives to stay in the game, particularly with Heroic mode and the raids. Wars are the only part that's still strongly imbalanced and where for by far most of the players - from a strictly rational point of view - it doesn't pay off at all to invest time for. There, only money counts, but to get an actual reward (I'm not talking about epics you already got months ago from chests, not to speak of the antique legendaries) one has to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars and join the stripping / guild hopping gangs.

IMHO, either the reward system would have to greatly improve, the overkill 'feature' removed/changed, or gemmers to be matched with other gemmers (to avoid the frustration of guilds to get 'gemtralized'). In this forum, probably by nature, mainly members / GM's of 'alliances' seem to be active. The overwhelming majority of players however is not that active and after 'having tried it' for a few dozen of times or so, won't spend gems (or even engage anymore) in wars that feel frustrating and pointless to them most of the time. I think in order to fix that (but still squeeze some gems out of this majority of guilds which players most are not ready to gem/buy a win), they should either increasingly cut down on the points players can get out of repeated kills, or set a maximum of gems a guild can spend before being elevated to a different set of guilds where gemmers are matched with gemmers. That way, little- or not-spending guilds would still be able to spend a bit if they feel like it, but not at an amount that creates a sharp imbalance with other guilds of a similar size.

* just to repeat it: I'd bet that in the long run, there are very few actual 'free' players. Most people loving K&D buy gems at a certain point. I know no one playing for > 6 months who never did. So I agree that the more people Gree can hold within the game (by giving incentives to 'free' players to stay and avoid creating frustration areas that may drive them away), it will certainly pay off nicely during their long-term 'career' as a K&D knight. ;)

[Dark King Abel]

I don't believe gemming is wrong or bad, it's what this game is built on. I do believe stripping is crap and those who defend it are probably benefiting from it's use.

To get rid of stripping would be simple.

EX. When you declare war and an opponent is found it should not tell you the name of the guild you are facing. Something like: " Enemy Guild vs. (Insert your guild name)!!"
This way you don't see who you are facing. To further throw off potential strippers, only show players as rank. No names.
Like so: Guild Master, Guild Sentinel, Guild Champion, High Commander 1, High Commander 2, Commander 1, ect..
This way even if guilds try to identify who they are up against by player names they wouldn't be able to. Also guilds who call out under geared enemies for their people to gang up on still have a way of identifying targets. " Guys HC 2 and GC have on lame armor attack them if you are under geared".

By removing stripping I believe more guilds would get in on the gemming train seeing how it's guild vs. guild instead of guild vs. alliance people would feel as though it could be worth it to try for T10.
Those at the top who are willing to spend a crap ton would continue to do so, maybe even more so considering more guilds would be competing for those top spots. If you want to spend gems and try for T10 fine, if not thats fine too.
Stripping as it is hurts more than just Wars though.

Say your guild stripped in War of Cosmos and managed a T10 and got Overgrown Lifeplate. You had a really good armor to use in the war that ended today. Now you have an advantage for the new Raid epic. And if you stripped and got Robes of the Jackal that's an even bigger advantage. You now also have much stronger armor than everyone else in the next War and during Arena.

tl;dr By removing stripping as a "tactic" I believe more people would buy/spend gems because they believe they have a better chance of finishing T10, and those that spend gems now would either spend more to remain at the top or quit. By quitting new guilds rise to the top and spend more gems to stay there, by staying Gree still gets more money. Win/Win.

[Kattora]

My guild is also frustrated for the reasons mentioned but also for the way guilds are matched up against each other. Our guild is level 66 with 37 levels of bonuses yet we have been matched up against top 25 guilds. No way can we compete against these guilds. We don't have the war/raid epics nor do we have the bonuses so why such a mismatch. It just adds to the frustration. We now realize the only way we can compete is through an alliance. There really is no choice for us at this point. We either become stagnant or enter an alliance and move up. Problem it is we are finding it difficult to find guilds willing to enter into an alliance at this point. A catch 22!
Kattora .... GM The Dark Sides line id kattora

[Ant venom]

My guild is also frustrated for the reasons mentioned but also for the way guilds are matched up against each other. Our guild is level 66 with 37 levels of bonuses yet we have been matched up against top 25 guilds. No way can we compete against these guilds. We don't have the war/raid epics nor do we have the bonuses so why such a mismatch. It just adds to the frustration. We now realize the only way we can compete is through an alliance. There really is no choice for us at this point. We either become stagnant or enter an alliance and move up. Problem it is we are finding it difficult to find guilds willing to enter into an alliance at this point. A catch 22!
Kattora .... GM The Dark Sides line id kattora

Being matched up against guilds in wars' factors aren't always inside the fact that u r in different rankings, it could be based on activity(as in the new update maybe ur t25 opponent is 50% active and u are like 75% active so GREE reads ur guild as more active and even capable of more points ( as once my guild was facing a t50 guild and beat them gaining like 100k points while they did only 20k and they had less active members compared to put guild at the time)), and even closeness of guild levels and bonuses.

[Pimatsu]

Based on activity? Any fact or just vivid imagination?

"The game draws from a pool of other Guilds that recently Declared War and then matches your Guild against another."

[Phill - Immortal GM]

"The game draws from a pool of other Guilds that recently Declared War and then matches your Guild against another."

Pimatsu is right. Matches are not influenced by activity but
- Declare time
- Amount of people in Guild [roughly], e.g. 20/40 won't match 40/40.

[Rookeye]

We are two lvl 75 guilds; we often draw guilds from all over the spectrum (both very weak and very strong). Methinks the match ups have a lot more to do with WHEN two guilds declare, say, and much less to do with how bad-arse (or not) they are.

[Ju Nation]

Pimatsu is right. Matches are not influenced by activity but
- Declare time
- Amount of people in Guild [roughly], e.g. 20/40 won't match 40/40.

not really true on point 2.

my alt is in a lvl 7 guild with only 3 pax.

we matched a lvl 75 maxed out guild with 30 pax?

and no, i don't know how they are matched. :)

[Phill - Immortal GM]

not really true on point 2.

my alt is in a lvl 7 guild with only 3 pax.

we matched a lvl 75 maxed out guild with 30 pax?

and no, i don't know how they are matched. :)

The only influence that Amount of people has is that you are initially thrown into a pool, from e.g. 33-40, you will be instantly/few min matched with any Guild declaring in that frame at those numbers.
After x amount of minutes/seconds this is broadened up to the next parameter of size and finally down to open match.

This match if it happened should have taken at least 20 minutes - Or iOS is just being weird as usual ;)

[Ju Nation]

The only influence that Amount of people has is that you are initially thrown into a pool, from e.g. 33-40, you will be instantly/few min matched with any Guild declaring in that frame at those numbers.
After x amount of minutes/seconds this is broadened up to the next parameter of size and finally down to open match.

This match if it happened should have taken at least 20 minutes - Or iOS is just being weird as usual ;)

hmm, then could be a cuckoo thingy, cos i normally get matched within 10 mins... :)

[watermelon]

There's definitely a formula or algorithm that goes into guild to guild match in wars. Just based on my observation, I do think that Gree has been tweaking this formula over the years and they are for sure getting better.

One thing that I seem to notice is that this algorithm works on probabilities.. so certain facts about your guild will put you at a higher probability of matching a certain class of guilds but nothing is 100% certain. That's why from time to time you will get ridiculous match-ups, but if you look at the entire history of match-ups in the whole 3 day duration, you will see that the match-ups are generally fair with just a small handful of anomalies.

What seems to influence your match-ups (again, there will always be exceptions)
- your guild activity at the time of declare
- your ranking (generally you are matched with guilds in similar ranks and rarely you have a t10 guild match with a guild that's ranked 3000)
- total number of people in the guild
- declare time
- the strength of armors of the members in your guild

Also, try to think in big picture. I understand why it would be upsetting for any guild to be matched with a t25 guild. I think even t10 guilds would rather match with a t300 guild than a t25 guild LOL. That said, there are literally thousands of guilds.. so a t25 guild matching with a t200 or even a t500 guild isn't all that ridiculous, if you look at the big picture. If the match restrictions were tighter, that pretty much means .. what.. a t25 guild will see the same guilds over and over? Don't forget that in a 3 day war a typical active guild will fight dozens of wars and ideally each guild will not see too many repeat matches.

[watermelon]

Those saying that they are not gemming and putting in a lot of effort are ????

Do you have any idea how hard it is to coordinate a top guild much less an alliance?

So you dont gem? Then you can continue to enjoy the game by fighting it out for t1000? Or just do eb and heroic... Just skip the GWs ...

Raids are also for you then ... I once upon a time also dont gem, i hated the game.

I only started enjoying the game after i started gemming. Maybe you would like to try it too.

I have spend lots of time n effort to get to where i am in the game so far.

Founder of the only undefeated t10 guild in ios. Part of the rainbow alliance and non-stripped.( yes we get t10 w/o strips)

Multi times top 1 runs. Arena black medalist.

I think i earned my rights to speak up. :)


Actually you can get a little better than that with no gemming. It's been done. You can flirt with T500 or maybe even slightly better with no gemming at all.. but it does require a guild to have extremely active and motivated players. But I do think that "t10 guilds are cheating!" sore loser tactics will never end. What these select grumpy free players want is free epics and they think they can actually get it if other guilds stopped gemming.

Well guess what. If all the gemmers stopped gemming, Gree will shut down the game. LOL. You still won't get your war epics for cheap.

Suck it up sore losers. Ya want it? spend money.

[London Knight]

According to a friend's friend on FB - A Death Knight regular - , they blew around 7,500 Gems EACH during the recent Raid!

That. Is. A. Ridiculous. Amount.

I think I spent about 100-120 & was very pleased with our Ranking. As I said before, this can't go on like this & the bubble has to burst sometime ...

[Lord P]

According to a friend's friend on FB - A Death Knight regular - , they blew around 7,500 Gems EACH during the recent Raid!

That. Is. A. Ridiculous. Amount.
Glad I'm on iOS. :D

[Phill - Immortal GM]

Don't forget that in a 3 day war a typical active guild will fight dozens of wars and ideally each guild will not see too many repeat matches.
That moment when you match the same Top guild 5x.... Yay.
All in all your post made absolute sense, thanks.



According to a friend's friend on FB - A Death Knight regular - , they blew around 7,500 Gems EACH during the recent Raid!


Sounds about right when we pushed them.. Their usual raids are a tad bit cheaper. Still talking approx. 3k Gems for the usual min + reserve.




Glad the weird discussion died down and some normal views are being put on the table.
Let's see how long 'the dirty strippers' may still strip :P.

[Ju Nation]

Actually you can get a little better than that with no gemming. It's been done. You can flirt with T500 or maybe even slightly better with no gemming at all.. but it does require a guild to have extremely active and motivated players. But I do think that "t10 guilds are cheating!" sore loser tactics will never end. What these select grumpy free players want is free epics and they think they can actually get it if other guilds stopped gemming.

Well guess what. If all the gemmers stopped gemming, Gree will shut down the game. LOL. You still won't get your war epics for cheap.

Suck it up sore losers. Ya want it? spend money.

I dont know about you but what is the point of finishing t500? Lol

Waste of time man ...

[roookey1]

I dont know about you but what is the point of finishing t500? Lol

Waste of time man ...

...and that was exactly my point. Different arguments, same conclusion. :D

I'd go even farther, saying that looking at the potential rewards from a rational point of view, it is a waste of time to participate in wars at all unless a guild can be sure to at least make it up to T25. The rewards for all spots below that can much easier be achieved during the weekly EB challenge, no need to spend dozens of hours online for that. From T25 on, it comes down to the question what the guild members are ready to spend on the respective epics and, maybe the real motivation, the 'glory'. :)

I get the initial idea from wars - for guilds to compete with their armors against other guilds, alone the implementation makes it pointless for the typical player to participate. There aren't even good condolation prices! Imagine UFC regulations changed in the way that if the winner spends a certain amount of money, he can continue hitting on an already knocked out opponent, with the win counter still increasing, and with the top result he can achieve becoming champion of all weight classes.

[Wayne Tay]

You wan war epic but dont want to spend that much gems ? Theres a way to do that - come back another year and play, you might get better. I agree with those top 250/500 reward is useless. Basically war is just for those top 25 to spend tons of gems , gree earn from it , and yes they will continue the rountine. No income , who the hell will release new war epics/ new features.

[Mike WDragon]

I'd go even farther, saying that looking at the potential rewards from a rational point of view, it is a waste of time to participate in wars at all unless a guild can be sure to at least make it up to T25.

Sorry but I disagree with that statement. For some it may be true but I was a FTP player for well over a year (maybe longer) and during that time, our guild usually finished t300 or so. But we didn't fight in the wars just for the rewards; it was for FUN! In a game that is centered around armor and fighting, what could be more fun than battling another guild to see your new eb+ armor in action? We participated in these guild wars for the sake of fighting; to see how strong (or weak) our armor was and that would motivate us to get the latest eb or eb+. It's not always just about the rewards. At least to me and my guild mates, the fighting was the fun part. The rewards were just icing on the cake for a fun time battling.

[Ju Nation]

I'd go even farther, saying that looking at the potential rewards from a rational point of view, it is a waste of time to participate in wars at all unless a guild can be sure to at least make it up to T25.

Sorry but I disagree with that statement. For some it may be true but I was a FTP player for well over a year (maybe longer) and during that time, our guild usually finished t300 or so. But we didn't fight in the wars just for the rewards; it was for FUN! In a game that is centered around armor and fighting, what could be more fun than battling another guild to see your new eb+ armor in action? We participated in these guild wars for the sake of fighting; to see how strong (or weak) our armor was and that would motivate us to get the latest eb or eb+. It's not always just about the rewards. At least to me and my guild mates, the fighting was the fun part. The rewards were just icing on the cake for a fun time battling.

totally agree Mike.

this game is only fun because of all the community ...

but coming together as a guild to fight for a reward is even more satisfying ... :)

[roookey1]

You have a point there ... thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[Sent]

I've always played wars for fun. It's fun beating other people, I guess. Although, my guild has taken off every war for the past two months and until wars are made two day instead of three. We barely used to strip though, only if an alliance guild was in risk of losing t10/t25.
The current war is the first war I've done in a while, only because of going t10. I agree that strips aren't fun and all, but I don't think wars should be made gem-free or there to be separate brackets. For fusion blitzes, sure. Not for guild wars though.

[Rookeye]

Something was said early on about how it wasnt fair that you lost position for walking away from the war for a few hours to have "real life".

But its very fair. In your earliest arguments, this was about EFFORT. And those teams that make the EFFORT to show up, play hard, and stay in game, battling it out for position will win. And they should.

If i want to enjoy Real Life (or have RL business to attend to), i need to take a brief vaycay and go on walkabout. My teammates understand that RL comes first...and when they need a break, i'll afford them the same. But its ludicrous to expect to win if we dont all put forth the same effort as the other teams: Those that fight hard, win.

Those that gem their eyes out are fighting longer and harder than those who do not gem. And, coincidentally, funding the game for the F2P crowd. I'm not going to belittle them for paying for my game...I'm gonna keep farming gems and fighting in every available war. ;)